Don't you get a sick, unusual feeling when you think about this guy breaking the record? And even watching him play? He is such an asshole creep. It's pretty sad when a guy like Hank Aaron had to go through all of the hate mail ("Nigger I will kill you if you break this record, etc. etc.") to do it on a level playing field. Not only is BB a cheater but he treated everyone like sh!t, fans, media, announcers...... This guy needs to be banned from the majors IMO, I wish someone in this league had half a sack. But we are going to see this happen and in my mind and 99% of others, it is a travesty of baseball and will never be looked upon as a legitimate record.
completely agree brad....anyone whos been in the chat knows how i feel about bonds, for those who dont, lets just say i dont know who i hate more, boston or bonds
It is what it is. Barry has generated his own image and will have to live with that forever. How many ppl don't respect mcguire when he broke the single season record because of his involvement with drugs? At least he was more of a gentleman. Did I hear correctly that even Barry's father won't watch him play? Tells ya something right there.
lol i actually disagree with a lot of what you guys are saying....sorry.
1. We don't know he's done steroids. Do I personally think he has? It's probable yes.
2. Ban him from the majors? I've heard major league baseball players estimate that in the past decade as many as 50% of players may have used performance enhancing drugs. Are we gonna ban everyone who we SUSPECT may have used them? Seems a lot of the same people who dislike Barry Bonds are real "red blooded american, greatest country in the world, god bless america" kinda people....whatever happened to innocent untill proven guilty?
3. I do think people are unfair to Barry based on his personality, he's arogant and not always super friendly. And i do think SOME people have sorta sub-concious tendencies to see the black guy cheating and be less forgiving, like "oh another black guy stealing/cheating/breaking the law"
4. It's just a stat, don't gimme all that BS about all the tradition in baseball and how sacred the record is. A player can only be truly judged by the opinions of his peers. To think that Barry breaking the record takes away from what Hank Aaron did, is asinine and insulting to Mr. Aaron.
I think its a pretty well foregone conclusion at this point. But, either way, I wouldn't have a problem with forcing him to subject to a blood test for verification.
"2. Ban him from the majors? I've heard major league baseball players estimate that in the past decade as many as 50% of players may have used performance enhancing drugs. Are we gonna ban everyone who we SUSPECT may have used them?"
Not purely on suspicion. Test them all and then throw out the cheating SOBs. Unfortunately the players union is against this. Wonder why...
"3. I do think people are unfair to Barry based on his personality, he's arogant and not always super friendly. And i do think SOME people have sorta sub-concious tendencies to see the black guy cheating and be less forgiving, like "oh another black guy stealing/cheating/breaking the law""
I think the main reason he gets to bear the brunt of it is because he is breaking records, whereas others who may be using steroids are not. I doubt it has much to do with race. If Barry Bonds was white, I'd have just as much dislike for him.
"4. It's just a stat, don't gimme all that BS about all the tradition in baseball and how sacred the record is."
In the end it is about cheating, and whether we accept it or not. If we accept steroids as being OK, then the game changes, period.
The sad part about it is, that Barry, without question, could have made it to the Hall of Fame without steroids. Now everything he ever did is tainted, similar to Pete Rose.
And personally, if I were in the MLB's position, I'd throw out any player that wasn't willing to be tested. It isn't like it would be all that difficult to find someone willing to get well paid for playing baseball. Heck, if I got paid a million bucks a year, you could sign me up and test me all you want.
Don't get me wrong i'm not a fan of Barry's, it's just disturbing to me how much effort people put into hating this guy. For example, compare him to Michael Vick and what he's done recently...
Bonds -He's a jerk -Pretty obviously used performance enhancing drugs and won't come clean. -Essentially victimless crimes
Vick -Tortured, abused and killed innocent, loving animals. -nuff said.
"I think the main reason he gets to bear the brunt of it is because he is breaking records, whereas others who may be using steroids are not."
Exactly, and that's wrong. Just because the other cheaters aren't as good doesn't make it any less wrong.
Not to get to far off track but somewhat related....
I once worked for a company which had a standard no tolerance drug policy like everywhere else. The shop was tainted with dirty employees who knew the consequences of drug use and chose to roll the dice. Management also knew that if the policy were to be enforced and had everyone tested they would lose 50-60% of their workforce. Even members of management would be on the streets. There's a fine line drawn in the sand that dictates the actions on both sides of the fence.
MLB has a no tolerance drug policy. Duh. So how far do you push it? As the demand for entertainment increases, along with player salaries, so does drug use. Does anyone think the league wants to test everyone and enforce what it preaches? That would equal national pastime suicide.
NJ past a non smoking bill that bans all smoking in public establishments. Bars, restaurants, you name it. Tens of thousands of businesses are screaming. Guess who was exempt. The casinos. Why? They are cash cows for the state and the bottom line is money talks.........
And while true fans know the story, stats are why they play the game. What owners consider during contract negotiations, what's printed on the back of baseball cards, and inevitably part of history.
You won't find in parenthesis that this guy was a jerk or that guy had bad breath or anyone's performance was possibly influenced by drugs.
Bonds cheated. He shamed the game. You have a bias aginst Vick because you love Pitbulls. I would rather see Barry be destroyed than Michael Vick, because at least Vick doesn't take roids to make make him an incredible athlete.
When I look at those dudes in the MLB i really do wonder how many guys take roids. Because I work out a decent amount and there is no way my arms could EVER be that big. Some of those guys forearms are the size of my biceps, granted they get paid to do that, but still. Some guys like drop the bat not even swinging and it goes over the fence.
not too mention, he never wants to "talk" about it....cause he knows he did it....in a few years we will all find out that he did for sure and will all look back on this thread and say damn, i was right....
I would rather barry get the record and vick and all his counterparts be thrown in jail with big, fat, g/-\y biker dudes... Vick harmed animals for what reason? none. grated, bonds is doing something wrong, if people found a way to get higher scores in db drag or anything, I gaurentee most would do it... It is cheating, it is wrong, and I defiantly don't like barry for doing it but there is a difference in breaking a record by using drugs and drowning, electricuting and beating defenseless dogs because they don't fight like you want them to... "I would rather see Barry be destroyed than Michael Vick, because at least Vick doesn't take roids to make make him an incredible athlete."
NOTHING against you Reece, but I think vick is one of the lowest kind of people around along with wife/child beaters and pedophiles... thats just me
agree 100% with andrew. Assuming both Barry and Vick are guilty of the suspected offenses....what barry did is like a misdemeanor compared to what vick's been up to.
so what 20years later, he gain weight what does that prove...that money means he can afford to eat better and better equipment to work out??
Give it a rest...Until they prove that he did..he didnt do it...why doesnt anyone want to believe him?? Do you dislike him that much?? Ok so maybe he's not a people person...But u would be pissed to if ur team sucked and all the media talked about was negative about u...
I'm with Chauncey. Could he have taken steroids? Sure. Could he be clean? Sure. Until he it is proven, the record should be his, without question.
Love him or hate him, Barry Bonds is one of the best hitters in MLB history, and I wish more people would stop their b*tching for long enough to realize the history they are could be watching.
Man, it's not just about size. Look at his numbers. In 1998, the alleged BIG steroid time, McGwire and Sosa hit 70 and 66 homers. Bonds had 37 in 152. The next year he jacked 34 in 102 games. (Quite a difference) The next year he hit 49 in 143 games while being walked 117 times(he was walked 73 the previous year). Granted that is a good amount of walks, it's not unheard of. The next year he knocked out 73 homers in 153 games while being walked 177 times. That's an INSANE jump. The extra 60 walks is like taking off 15 games worth of ABs. that's basically saying Bonds slugged 73 homers in 138 games which is 24 more homers than the year before with LESS at bats. A ball player doesn't hit their prime 15 years into their career I don't care who you are. Let alone knock 24 more homers than you did in the 14th season of your career with less at bats. The guy was doing more than working out and taking alot of batting practice to improve his numbers like that. I mean the most he ever hit in Pittsburgh was 34 and that was his last year there. Do you honestly think he just found this power storke over night and started hitting out 15 more homers a year? You can call it gaining experience in the bigs, but I say after 8 years in the pros you are a pretty experienced batter. People say Bonds hasn't been caught with enhancing drugs, but you're wrong. He was caught with some "cream" that wasn't even legal in the U.S. No it wasn't banned by baseball at the time, but should baseball officials be responsible for banning substances that can only be taken by prescribed patients? As I recall Bonds "didn't know what he was taking". I'll go ahead and raise the bullsh!t flag on that and say Bonds will never be the homerun king in my heart nor in the heart of any TRUE baseball fan. Hank Aaron was the greatest homerun hitter of all time and that shall remain regardless of Bonds cheap attempt to make history.
That being said, Bonds was and still is a phenomenal hitter, but he should be sittin' pretty with about 680-700 home runs.
Not to mention, I wonder why Barry has been injured so much lately? You can say age, but a man in his kind of shape shouldn't have swollen knees and ankles. Look up the downsides of steroids. There's a lot of adverse heath risks involved with taking them. Maybe the past 9+ years of illegal substances has taken a toll on Barry's body.
Paul said it best. If baseball would have put heavy testing on ball players from 98' until now the sports wouldn't be half as popular because a lot of peoples favorite players would be riding pine with 15 game suspensions.
Barry Bonds used a vast array of performance-enhancing drugs, including steroids and human growth hormone, for at least five seasons beginning in 1998, according to a book written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters.
Beginning in 1998 with injections in his buttocks of Winstrol, the same steroid used in the 1988 Olympics by Ben Johnson and last year by Rafael Palmeiro, Bonds' massive doping regimen grew more sophisticated as the years went on, according to "Game of Shadows," a book to be released later this month written by reporters Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams.
Fainaru-Wada and Williams write that "more than a dozen people either had been told directly that he was using banned drugs, had seen him using the drugs with their own eyes, or had been provided with information that made the conclusion he was doping inescapable," according to a book excerpt in this week's Sports Illustrated. The book, written in narrative style, is said to be based on more than a thousand pages of documents and interviews with more than 200 people.
Among the items detailed in the excerpt:
• Bonds was motivated to take performance-enhancing drugs by the Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa chase of the single-season home run record in 1998 and he had never taken any before 1998.
• Through research, Bonds developed a deep knowledge of performance enhancers. He even talked, through third parties, to medical authorities who advised him not to use steroids.
• He began with Winstrol after the 1998 season. He also worked out extensively, sometimes spending 12 hours a day at the gym where he met the Weight Guru, who turned out to be Greg Anderson.
• He also took Deca-Durabolin. By 2001, the authors allege, he was using two designer steroids referred to as the Cream and the Clear, as well as insulin, human growth hormone, testosterone decanoate (a fast-acting steroid known as Mexican beans) and trenbolone, a steroid created to improve the muscle quality of cattle. That's the same year Bonds broke McGwire's single-season home run record (70) by belting 73.
• He got the substances from Anderson, his personal trainer who became a Giants employee. Anderson got them from BALCO labs, headed by Victor Conte. Anderson's employment by the Giants irked the team's training staff, according to the excerpt. The Giants also did a background check, discovering that "World Gym was known as a place to score steroids and that Anderson himself was rumored to be a dealer. But the club decided it didn't want to alienate Bonds on this issue, either. The trainers stayed."
• Despite seeing a big change in Bonds' physical appearance, Giants officials did not challenge their star for fear of upsetting him. "The Giants, from owner Peter Magowan to manager Dusty Baker, had no interest in learning whether Bonds was using steroids, either," the excerpt contends. "Although it was illegal to use the drugs without a prescription, baseball had never banned steroids. Besides, by pursuing the issue, the Giants ran the risk of poisoning their relationship with their touchy superstar -- or, worse, of precipitating a drug scandal the year before the opening of their new ballpark, where Bonds was supposed to be the main gate attraction."
• Anderson kept meticulous records on Bonds' program, many of them on a computer. At times, Bonds gulped as many as 20 pills at a time. He also learned to inject himself.
• Bonds had a relationship with Kimberly Bell, a woman he met in the Candlestick Park parking lot in 1994 while he was married. Bonds even put a down payment on a house for Bell in Arizona from monies he made from card-show appearances (and didn't report as income). She claims he later threatened to kill her.
• According to the excerpt, Anderson told an acquaintance who was wearing a wire in 2003 that: "The whole thing is, everything I've been doing, it's all undetectable. The stuff I have, we created it. You can't buy it anywhere else; you can't get it anywhere else. You can take [it] the day of [a drug test], pée, and it comes up clear. See, like Marion Jones and them -- it's the same stuff they went to the Olympics with and they test them every fucking week. So that's why I know it works, so that's why I know we're not in trouble. So that's cool."
• Bonds had immunity in grand jury testimony from everything but perjury. He claimed in testimony that he didn't know what Anderson was giving him. "At the end of [the] 2002, 2003 season, when I was going through [a bad period], my dad died of cancer ... I was fatigued, just needed recovery you know, and this guy says, 'Try this cream, try this cream,'" he said. "And Greg came to the ballpark and said, you know, 'This will help you recover.' And he rubbed some cream on my arm ... gave me some flaxseed oil, man. It's like, 'Whatever, dude.'"
As far as Barry's home run numbers go i don't think that's really relevant honestly. If a team goes from winning the superbowl to 4-12 next year was it because they obviously STOPPED taking steroids? Did Jordan hit his prime in his mid 30's because he used HGH?
Athletes go through hot streaks, slumps, sudden breakthroughs and such all the time, i don't think it's fair to say it's indicative of drug use.
As far as the injuries go, same thing, i don't think it's fair to link that to steroid use. Pro athletes at Barry's age, ESPECIALLY in baseball where the regular season is such a marathon, often have the problems Barry is having.
And as far as that book goes that the two san fran. chronicle guys wrote....i don't know why anyone would waste their time reading that.
"If a team goes from winning the superbowl to 4-12 next year was it because they obviously STOPPED taking steroids?"
Hardly the same thing. A coaching change, change of players, injuries, etc all have a major impact on this. Of course if you have a few good examples where none of these things happened...
"Did Jordan hit his prime in his mid 30's because he used HGH?"
How do you conclude that Jordan hit his prime in his mid 30s? He was still great at 35 (when he retired for the second time), but I wouldn't say he was *just* hitting his prime in his mid 30s, given that he performed feats like scoring 3000 points in a season when he was 24 (only Wilt Chamberlain had scored that much in a season previously) and having 3 back to back to back championships when he was 27-30.
"Athletes go through hot streaks, slumps, sudden breakthroughs and such all the time, i don't think it's fair to say it's indicative of drug use. "
Sure, but theres more evidence of foul play than just a hot streak. Suddenly gaining 50 pounds of muscle mass when you're in your mid 30s is a bit suspicious. And of course there are the cream incidents, and other assorted accusations going on.
"Love him or hate him, Barry Bonds is one of the best hitters in MLB history, and I wish more people would stop their b*tching for long enough to realize the history they are could be watching."
we're watching history that will only be called corrput when we find out that he used them. no doubt in my mind that 5 or 10 or 15 years down the road, we will have proof that he used steroids. and chauncey to say that he put on weight and its his job to work out and get big, thats crap. of course hes gona get bigger from his rookie year to his last year in his career, but damn thats a huge change. different looking man in those pics.
besides, we get to wath A-Rod get the record in a few years.....doing it without the roids
Barry has never been convicted, or even indicted for that matter. They just extended the investigation, which is taking a really long time. Didnt take very long to get an indictment on Vick.
He passed every test because MLB didnt have testing in place for HGH. MLB has to have some sort of accountability.
Besides home runs, he still has a very high OBP. Last time I checked steroids didnt help you have great vision of the ball or make you quicker. If it does make you quicker, its not enough to make a difference in making contact with the ball. Anybody here play ball?? If not I suggest you go to some batting cages and try to hit even a 60 mph fast ball...Good Luck!
What is wrong with this nation anymore?? Guilty until proven innocent huh? I guess I should make some far off accusations about some people on ecoustics (who I dont even know, cause dont one of you know Barry Bonds) and it must be true.
And dont get me started on Selig...How can the commissioner of MLB, who should hold some accountability because of the lack of testing, not go to the game when he breaks the record? Or just not mention if he is or not. MLB waited until congress and the Grand Jury started poking their nose around, until they changed their testing policies. If he doesnt believe Barry should hold the record then maybe he should just ban him from baseball now.....Oh wait he cant cause his league is still making millions off Barry, and he has no EVIDENCE besides the fact Barry got huge and some "insiders" made accusations.
Thank you Stephen M. for not making me prove Pitbull wrong. 90% of what Pitbull wrote is entirely irrelevant. The only thing I would like to add is to ask if you even know what HGH is. It stands for Human Growth Hormone. HGH tends to make you grow not only in height but in mass. Jordan was always a fairly slim dude, and he was 6' 6" his entire career. If you're going to argue at least make a DECENT point. The fact of the matter is everyone arguing for Barry has no information to back up their statements exempting "innocent until proven guilty".
One more thing, do you honestly think a guy can go on a 5-6 year hot streak towards the end of his career?
Yes, Paul, baseball is a HUGE passion of mine and I'm glad to see who appreciates it like I do and who just like to TRY and play the devil's advocate.
"Sure, but theres more evidence of foul play than just a hot streak. Suddenly gaining 50 pounds of muscle mass when you're in your mid 30s is a bit suspicious. And of course there are the cream incidents, and other assorted accusations going on."
ACCUSATIONS is the key word. I can accuse any one of you about anything I want.
"The fact of the matter is everyone arguing for Barry has no information to back up their statements exempting "innocent until proven guilty"."
I guess you watched him do these things....cause you dont really have proof either. Just "he said, she said"
Reece i'm sorry you couldn't comprehend the point i was trying to make but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant, you had no reason to take a personal shot at me. You were more than welcome to disagree with me, being a d!ck about it only reflects poorly on you.
When refering to a 4-12 team after winning the superbowl or Jordan hitting his prime late, I was simply trying to say that professional sports don't always follow logical trends. Just because it seems unbelievable doesn't mean performance enhancements were involved.
"The fact of the matter is everyone arguing for Barry has no information to back up their statements exempting "innocent until proven guilty"."
Should we have listed all the home runs he DIDNT hit? Or how much muscle mass he DIDNT gain?......you're speculating just like we are.
"Barry has never been convicted, or even indicted for that matter. They just extended the investigation, which is taking a really long time."
It is extended because his trainer is repeatedly refusing to testify against Bonds. He is in jail currently for being in contempt of court. Of course it is notable that Bonds would only be accused of perjury, as he was granted immunity against other related charges in turn for his testimony.
"Didnt take very long to get an indictment on Vick. " Not relevant to the discussion.
"He passed every test because MLB didnt have testing in place for HGH. MLB has to have some sort of accountability. "
No argument there.
"Besides home runs, he still has a very high OBP. Last time I checked steroids didnt help you have great vision of the ball or make you quicker. If it does make you quicker, its not enough to make a difference in making contact with the ball. Anybody here play ball?? If not I suggest you go to some batting cages and try to hit even a 60 mph fast ball...Good Luck! "
Nobody denies that Bonds is great with or without steroids. That is what makes me all the sadder that his career is tainted by this.
"What is wrong with this nation anymore?? Guilty until proven innocent huh?"
Such is life. Look at poor poor OJ.
"I guess I should make some far off accusations about some people on ecoustics (who I dont even know, cause dont one of you know Barry Bonds) and it must be true. "
There is a difference between you making allegations about me and a co-worker making an allegation about me. If someone in my office is dead, and five people point the finger at me, I'd say in a court of law, I'm pretty screwed unless some other random bit of evidence happens to clear me.
well jesse, half the reason his OBP is so high cause of the hundreds of walks he receives every year....hes a .298 career hitter, not bad but certainly nothing to get a b0ner about....
i just think its interesting that his first year with SF (1993), he hits 46 homeruns and hits at least 40 hrs every year since then except for 7 of his 14 year stay in SF....in 7 years with Pitt, he only hit above 30 twice....
well jesse, half the reason his OBP is so high cause of the hundreds of walks he receives every year....hes a .298 career hitter, not bad but certainly nothing to get a b0ner about....
besides the 2002 season, his walk average is pretty much the same every year....could you imagine if he got pitched to? He would have surpassed Aaron already, that says something. Still, YanksFan, you play ball right? You think HGH will make you faster and able to see the ball better to make contact? Also how do you feel about Giambi? Let me guess...Its ok cause he admitted to it? So all Bonds has to do is admit it and its all good?
actually no i do not play....i am actually god awful at baseball lol....and giambi, no its certainly not alrite at all. is it better that he came and admitted it? sure i think it does help. but giambi isnt chasing the biggest record in all of sports....hes just an everyday player. bonds wouldnt be a big deal if he wasnt chasing this record. look at mcgwire, he used steroid and no one gives a f-ck cause A) his single seson homerun record was beat and B) he has no major record.
his walk average says something, it says pitchers dont wanna face him. he can crush a ball, partially due to steroids. so in a way, the steroids are causeing him to be walked so much and hit home runs
Um, Jesse. Obviously you don't know anyone who has ever done steroids or HGH or whatever name you want to put on it. I have a friend who is very large into steroids. He played highschool football and as a sophomore he got mono. He lost 45 pounds and most of his strength due to mono. He was left at about 5' 11" 170 pounds. He started taking roids the summer before his junior year and by the beginning of the season he was weighing in at around 195 off taking test-500, a high powered steroid. After that season he started on cycles of HGH, Winstrol, and Test-500. He began his senior year weighing about 225 and had grown to 6' 2". Not to mention his athletic ability was light years away from his junior year. Have you ever witnessed something like that? Am I a little more credible now?
If you still don't trust me then I'll tell you another true story. I played football until I was a sophomore. I was big and strong, but when I quit I lost a lot of strength and wanted it back. I asked my friend (steroid user) to recommend me a supplement to help me out. He gave me a 50 pill supply of something he called "D-Bol". Unknowingly, I took the dynabol (a VERY mild steroid) for a week and a half. I raised my bench 15 pounds and was dunking a basketball with ease. I was barely able to grab rim before this. That's why I have such a strong argument against steroids. Not only does it make you strong, but it turns you into a better athlete.
As for Pitbull, I wasn't personally attacking you. I got riled up and said you were putting up a bad argument and that you were having little success in being the devil's advocate. I still stand to that, but I wasn't trying to be offensive.
The thing about it is, if you've never seen the true effects of steroids or you just think that they make you stronger you are terribly mistaken. They work in miraculous ways and that's why they are so addictive.
"To me it says that they have very little or no case....The grand jury dont play around. I believe their success rate of convictions is around 90-95% "
Good for you. However, Vick's case left loads of evidence that only a blind man couldn't see. Barry's is a little more complex, with the usage of "undetectable steroids", lies and deception by his trainer, incompetence by MLB management in general, etc. Unfortunately, the key players in it don't really want to talk. Of course the simple fact that this investigation has been pursued for so long now indicates that there is some evidence out there that Bonds is a liar. And of course it should again be noted that the question isn't did Bonds take steroids (which he admitted he may have, unknowingly), but whether he knowingly took steroids, which a simple screening won't help reveal.
"So he is in jail for using his constitutional rights, and pleading the 5th. "
He was already found guilty of dealing steroids and money laundering. He has no legal excuse not to testify. I'm curious as to what arrangements he has that he is willing to spend a year in jail for.
"exactly....so unless any one of you were there, you dont really have anything..."
Well I did live in SF during the years in question.... But seriously though, Game Of Shadows cites its sources, which include leaked grand jury testimony (courtesy of their currently jailed lawyers), 200+ interviews, numerous documents (some of which found in his trainers apartment), etc. If you want to wait until he is found guilty in a court of law of perjury, that is your right. But you have to admit there is a hell of a lot weighing against Barry right now.
Of course what I consider even more damning is that while Barry sued to stop the grand jury testimony from being leaked (which he failed), he never did sue for libel...If someone was spreading career damaging lies about me in print, you could be assured I would respond with a libel lawsuit and ensure my name was irrevocably cleared.
those last two comments made me think of the movie dodgeball.. lol
and now to be serious, if you guys need no other proof, look at size of the mans head from when he was witht he pirates until now. i don't care how much you work out, your head does not gain 4 inches in diameter, unless you're doing your bench presses with the weigths strapped to a helmet and using nothing but temple muscles. i'm not pretending to be a steriod pro, but jesus guys.. look where is he gaining mass. it's not just in places that you would benefit from working out a ton and eating right. open your eyes.
All you have to look at to see the proof is Bonds' personal trainer Greg Anderson. The guy is STILL in jail for failing to testify to the grand jury and now he is looking at a total of an 18 months sentence. And think about it... how can Anderson afford to retain such a famous and powerful lawyer such as Mark Geragos? Who do you think is paying for him? Uh huh, Barry is. The fact is that Anderson worked at Balko, gave Barry the steroids, and they both knew damn well what was in them and what they were risking. Bond's will undoubtedly get Anderson a large sum of money when he is released for having his back all this time and serving a miserable sentence in a federal pen. They both know that if Anderson were to go before the grand jury under oath that the truth would come out, or at least become worse than it already is.
Look guys... I am also one of those who hate to see people convicted before a fair trial like some of you who posted above, but let's face it, anyone who thinks that Bond's didn't do steroids with all of the information that is out there... probably thinks OJ is innocent as well. The bottom line is that Barry Bonds has been an arrogant jerk to fans and media his whole career and if he had not been, this would have been much less scrutinized. It's called the Kareem Abdul Jabbar effect and they are both paying heavily for their attitudes in the past. At least Kareem seems regretful about it....
Maybe i have to re-read this thread but i don't remember anyone saying that they thought Barry did NOT do steroids.
If there were a way we could test him now to see if he had ever taken roids or HGH and i was gonna bet on the outcome, I'd say he took em without thinking twice about it.
Main point I was trying to argue is that I think the hatred and anger targeted at him is undeserved and unfair. To me it's not fair to treat him differently just because he is really good and chasing a huge record, there are other baseball players who we KNOW took roids, yet no one talks about them as much. There are other pro athletes who have done things that are, at least to me, FAR MORE dispicable than what Barry has allegedly done, and yet people seem more inclined to defend them.
I don't know everything about Barry's personal life, but as far as i know he's a good husband, and a good father to his kids. What about the athletes who get arrested for beating their wife/girlfriend, shooting up a club with their handgun, or torturing and killing dogs? That's all I'm saying.
I respect all of your opinions, and i enjoy this debate. Healthy, respectful debate only guides us closer to what's right and what's real
" there are other baseball players who we KNOW took roids, yet no one talks about them as much."
Thats because they don't make news every day about chasing records. Of course the end result of all this will hopefully be that *all* players will be more thoroughly tested, and that *all* cheaters will be removed from the game. Barry just gets to be the figurehead. Fair or not, that is how life works. Somebody draws lots of attention to a problem, and they tend to become synonymous with that problem. I'm sure Vick is going to be pretty synonymous with dogfighting for a while too, and he certainly wasn't the only one involved. However, we can certainly hope that the attention he has drawn to the problem will help to stamp it out.
"What about the athletes who get arrested for beating their wife/girlfriend, shooting up a club with their handgun, or torturing and killing dogs? "
What about them? What do they have to do with this conversation at all? Its not like we're condoning wife beating or dogfighting here by discussing whether or not Barry deserves to break the home run record.
"What about them? What do they have to do with this conversation at all? Its not like we're condoning wife beating or dogfighting here by discussing whether or not Barry deserves to break the home run record."
wtf do you mean, of course it has to do with this conversation. How Barry is being treated and whether or not he deserves it was a key topic in this discussion, and i cited other cases of pro-athletes doing wrong to compare. How the phuck is that not relevant?
It has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. This question is about one individual, and one individual alone : "in your opinion, does Barry Bonds deserve to break the home run record, given that he is more than likely a cheat?"
How does the fact that there are other cheaters in major league baseball enter into the equation? I don't think anyone in this conversation thinks they deserve to get away with it. I personally think they should all be barred from professional sports. Hopefully since the lid has been blown off of this, something might actually happen.
And then there is Michael Vick, who we all know you're currently so fond of. How the heck does he factor into that question? Is beating and killing dogs worse than taking steroids? Sure it is; nobody is going to argue that. Should Vick be behind bars for the rest of his natural life? Probably. But how in the world does Vick have to do with whether people here think a cheater is deserving of breaking what is arguably the most important record in baseball?
The way you're arguing, you're trying to say, "well other people cheat in baseball now, and I don't think Bonds is being treated fairly". This isn't a logical answer to the question of "should a cheat be allowed to break a record held by a non-cheat". Just because everyone else is cheating doesn't mean its right or OK. Is Barry being treated worse than his cohorts? He likely is, as that is the side effect of being an @ss, a cheater, and a record breaker.
Then your other argument, which I'm still trying to understand what the heck you're trying to say, is that "Michael Vick beats and kills dogs, thus making Bonds cheating insignificant". So what? Hitler killed 6 million jews. That still fails to alter my opinion that cheaters shouldn't be allowed to play, let alone break and hold records.
You can cry hypocrisy all you want, but how the NFL is treating Vick simply doesn't factor into my decision of how I feel about Barry Bonds. It doesn't mean I support Vick or am trivializing what he's done; but nobody asked how I feel about Bonds in relation to Vick or anyone else.
{It has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. This question is about one individual, and one individual alone : "in your opinion, does Barry Bonds deserve to break the home run record, given that he is more than likely a cheat?"}
I thought this was just a general open discussion about all things regarding the thread title "Barry Bonds". Didn't know we were restricted to such a narrow scope.
The question you posed is a faulty one to me. Makes about as much sense as me asking if i deserve to eat ice cream today. Whatever though, i don't feel like my opinion is respected or valued on this thread anymore so i'ma just stop lol.
The thread title was Barry Bonds. The opening post asked how we felt that the cheating SOB was going to break the record. As such, that is the conversation I was having. If that isn't what you were discussing, then chalk it up to a communication error.
Inasmuch as the question, word it like this then: In your opinion, should the MLB allow him to hold or even reach the record? How does it make you feel that more than likely, a cheater will be the home run king?
As far as your opinion, it is as valued as anyones. Mine however is simple: cheaters should be barred, period, much like those who shoot up clubs, torture defenseless animals, and beat their wives.The difference of course with the last three is that they need some jail time in addition to humiliation.
I'm a big fan of you Stephen, haha. We have basically the same views on about everything this thread entitles.
Anyways, Curt Schilling made a statement about Bonds steroid use today. Hopefully when more players start ratting the b*stards some of this sh!t will get straightened out.
and once again, bonds didn't deny it in his reply to what schilling said.. all he did was make fun of bob costas for being short (schilling made the comments on bob's show). i would think this would be a good time for him to stand up for himself. maybe he just has small self esteem? prolly about the same size his balls are by now..
take that * away...If that is the case like I stated everybody during this era is on the "juice" so every win, lose, record, ect.. should have a * by it...
Because there is no way of telling who is or who is not doing it...and dont give me well it looks like he is..thats b/s....Some people on this forum look like f.a.gs. that dont mean they are
Hope Bonds hits 2 today!...he's a great ballplayer, who either like it or NOT, is breaking Aaron's old record....and then Arod just someday make break Bonds's new record..all records are temporary and will someday be broken..and nobody here can say POSITIVELY whether roids were an issue..Bonds would have broken the record either way..give credit where credit is due!
LK you must have missed half the posts in this thread to say that we can't say positively that he did steroids. He was caught steroids that weren't even legal in the states unless they were prescribed. He took them, and was caught, but the drug wasn't on the ban list because it wasn't legal in the United States and was considered a non-issue.
If he was caught doing roids , he would have been suspended...I think the story is "twisted" as is this entire thread!..THERE IS NO PROOF that Bonds did roids only "allegations" from Balco and a former trainer, who has recanted 100x..he was NEVER caught taking illegal substances!
and if U want to push the issue, every ball player should be banned/suspended for alcoholism too, if they use a daily mouth wash....the point is how a very simple issue can be twisted into something its NOT!...especially when the media is involved or "traditionalists" who won't accept the fact that records will be broken and athletes are much better now than compared to when their parents and grandparents were young or had "heroes" who played ball!
hell, I'm still waiting for MLB to put Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame, where he belongs..and Bud Selig is the biggest non functional wuss and a disgrace to MLB!
Umm there's so much wrong with what you said LK. Did you even read what I said or just ramble off more of your biased opinions with no facts to back them? The substance WASN'T on the illegal substance list because it was LEGAL IN THE UNITED STATES, but he did take it and then said "he didn't know what it was". No player will take something without knowing the effects it could have on their body. Do you think he took it as a placebo? He knew what it was. Period.
i could care less about lance but f*ck barry tying the record. i hate him he doesent deserve that title. i think hanks record shouldent be beaten by a guy like him.
Why do you care less about Lance? He was on an international stage. He won 7 Tour de France's, the biggest cycling event in the world. He was alleged to be doping. Dont tell me baseball is bigger in america, I know it is, but he was competing on an international level and won freaking 7 tours. Baseball is considered Americas pasttime and its not even the #1 sport here....
no offense to lance, but who cares? lance broke the biggest record in biking, not baseball. i would venture to guess that 75% of the US watches baseball while less than 40% of the US even knows what the tour de france is lol. lets be serious, if he was breaking a smaller record then no one would care but since he is breaking argueably the biggest record in ANY sport then hes gonna face harsher criticism....if he cheated to break a smaller record then who the f-ck cares but since this record is so big then everyone cares. no one wants to see a baseball legnd be knocked off his throne by some cheating, ignorant, flat out douchebag like barry.
hank is number one in my book, until arod does it in a few years
What's driving this debate is the fact that, in any sport, how can you set a standard of acheivement when technology and medicine are constantly improving? I don't care if it's legal, they're going to use it. Who knows, in 2050 there maybe a drug available that allows a man to run a 3 second 40. When that time comes I think we should set new parameters for records. Think of it like auto racing. As technology improves...........
Lol. My point was if you do something long enough drunk or under the influence then that's when you're going to perform best at it. I always drank when I bowled or shot pool.
Yeah Jesse the fans here are pretty classy and gave him props but a good percentage of them were SF fans that flew down.
Some funny facts about the game and home run ball: A couple dozen guys that were sitting in the outfield seats in right and left were carrying "decoy balls" with them. If the ball was hit near them they would throw a few of them down and go after the real ball that has special markings on it lmfao. That's the funniest thing they have done since last years "syringe incident".
The area the ball ended up being hit to was filled with fans carrying asterisk (*) signs.
The fan who caught the ball was quickly whisked away by ominous looking men in black suits to avoid any violence or possible bribes etc.
Barry came out for batting practice which is very rare... he usually takes his swings in the cage that is underneath the stadium. He took hundreds of pitches and one guy who was counting said that he hit 19 home runs. The same guy said that there were a group of fans down by the railing chanting "Beiroids"... and "Barry Balko".
After he hit the homer that tied Hank, Barry took 5 slow steps and clasped his hands, drawing a chorus of boos from the drunk fans along the first base line.
Brad, did you ever go to any games at the Murph? The one and only MLB game I went to was there, back in 88 or 89. It was against the braves, my grandma used to live in mesa springs.
At Barry's last at bat, the fans booed him again then booed the pitcher for pitching 3 straight balls, then cheered when Barry took his first strike, then booed again when he got walked and cheered when he came off the field. That must be a big crowd of Giants fans...how can the giants fans outway the padres fans?? And the dude that recovered the ball was there long enough for him to raise his hands in glee and yell and be happy. The camera was on him for at least a minute or more.
Certainly Babe's era and now are not comparable. Rules have changed (and under current rules, the Babe would have another 100 HRs or so, thanks to the way end of game HRs were counted and how foul balls were called back in the day). The game itself has changed in that pitchers are much more formidable. The day of a pitcher actually pitching a full game are gone. It is a much more technical sport.
However, while you can't compare stats evenly, you can certainly compare the impact a player had. In that respect, the Babe is undeniably far greater than Barry could hope to be. In one season, outside of the Yankees, only the A's as a team hit more home runs than the Babe did singlehandedly. That is sheer domination. And of course it wasn't like he just hit home runs and nothing else. His batting average was consistently high. He was a highly respected pitcher in his day (he held a record for World Series pitching). The simple fact that Babe's name is instantly recognizable to anyone who has ever touched a baseball is a testament to his greatness.
"bonds enjoy it for 8 years until arod does it cleanly"
a LOT of baseball insiders would tell you A-rod probably hasn't been clean his whole career either...dude has bulked up quite a bit the past few years and the sportswriters who see him in the locker room with his shirt off say his body looks more like a pro body builder than a pro baseball player.
They can say all they want about A-Rod not being clean, but A-Rod has NEVER been involved in any steroids scandals and he's worked over his 10 year career to get bigger and stronger. If you look at pictures of A-Rod from year to year it wouldn't be that big of a deal because his growth comes gradually. If you look at the growth of Bonds from 01 to 04 you'll see some major differences...
This is Bonds in 2001.
This is Bonds in 2004.
I can't believe he would make Mcgwire look small now. Thats weird.
If 3 years isn't gradual then i don't know what is. Also in the first pic the only part of his body you can see is his face. In the second one he is OBVIOUSLY in the middle of working out and is all pumped up.
Gaining 30 pounds of pure muscle in three years is pretty hard to do, especially when you're pushing 40. Not to mention if anything he should look bigger with all he equipment on. I don't know how his head, chest, and arms are gonna be pumped from running around a field, but since you wanna see gradual let's look at A-Rod.
Here he is as a rookie:
Here he is this year:
Hm... Once again, steroids haven't worked so well for A-Rod.
I remember watching that pumping iron movie made documenting Arnold's road to his muscular stardum, (might have been in a muscle mag). In one of his interviews I remember him saying that a bodybuilder can expect to gain about 5 lbs of muscle mass a year (naturally). 30 lbs in 3 years is quite extraordinary if done only by the means of mother nature. That's alot of wheaties lol.
That one is going to do the email rounds today.
