Archive through August 11, 2004
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1737 Registered: Dec-03 | Uh-oh, we've got Kegger's beefcake pics at the top of this thread. Bond is archived. I am tempted to bring them back. Anyone second that...? |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 211 Registered: Apr-04 | LOL!! This is going to be a hard thread to take until we get another archive....maybe we should start Another Discovery thread? At least I've still got my Dourdan and Clooney pics and, JohnA, has his beloved Alma. Kegger, did you set the archive point on this thread? ;-) |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 215 Registered: Apr-04 | JohnA, you might be right...Mahler does have a big head...in this photo, his head seems a little disproportionate to his neck and shoulders: http://sfsymphony.org/templates/composer.asp?nodeid=179&callid=22&strchar=M |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1742 Registered: Dec-03 | Ghia, She ain't "my" beloved Alma. Argh, what a thought. It was the ladies playing the stringed instruments that caught my eye. That is a nice web site, composer entries courtesy of The Grove Dictionary. I've always thought I could live happily in San Franciso, given a suitable income. I never knew Britten and Shostakovich qualified a members of the "Second Viennese School". I have no idea what that means, actually. As I said, this thread is an education. Kegger, I recommend the Atkins Diet. Follow Ghia's link, and see what it did for Mahler. |
|
Larry R Unregistered guest | Well, that does it! As "they" say dowan heah in my part of the country: "Ah gives!" Meaning that I've found so much of interest here on your forums that I may just have to register and become legit. (huh?) Maybe the pictures did it? Anyway, I'm going to add my name to this illustrious listing - and hope to be able to add an occasional spark or three to your scintillating wit(s) - Thank y'all - oops - you all! (snicker) |
|
New member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 1 Registered: Jul-04 | OK, chaps - guess I'm now registered. So - Larry R becomes WRYTER. Hope to chat with you often. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 268 Registered: Feb-04 | For the most part, I agree with what has been said in the previous posts about Mahler's first six symphonies, with one major exception. No. 6 does not leave me with a "buoyed up" feeling. The ending is a complete downer. The slow movement that precedes it is one of the loveliest that Mahler composed. But that mood is completely shattered by the final, violent movement that has three seemingly triumphant crescendos that are ultimately crushed by "hammer blows" (Mahler's description). The symphony ends in defeat. Death is always present in Mahler's music, even in his early works. The man suffered the death of loved ones from an early age. He lost several younger siblings including his favorite brother. There is one anecdote Alma told of walking into a room where Mahler was staging a wake for himself. He was lying on a bed like a corpse surrounded by lighted candles. And this was before the death of one his daughters, which occurred after he completed No. 6. Perhaps that particular loss gave greater weight to the following symphonies. There's no question that Mahler was self-counscious about his music as John A points out. But Beethoven was as well. Listen to Op. 131. The man is grappling with his own mortality. He is looking into death's maw with despair (there is no other piece of music that expresses this despair more effectively). And there are humorous moments, along the lines of life-is-joke, amid this despair. There's a heroic march as he soldiers on (tinged with sarcasm?). And finally there is peace and crushing beauty in the work. (I can describe Mahler's music the same way.) How is Op. 131 not a self-conscious, introspective work? |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 17 Registered: Jul-04 | Well, well! I seem to be in the presence of thinking, articulate folk - and I'm just not used to that! Two Cents, who and wherever you are - your posting has left me many things to think about, not the least of which was an earlier posting by my humble self re the Mahler symphonies. I SHOULD have said the symphonies "up to" the 6th leaving me with buoyed-up feelings. You are 100% correct - the end of the 6th is the beginning of a sea-change in Mahler's work - and generally where I let others do the listening for me! Well, not entirely true. . . As to the Beethoven, I agree with you half-way, Two Cents - Beethoven was certainly introspective, but I'm not truly certain that "self-conscious" fits the man. Hav-tah tink about that awhile, please! Oh, yes - I deeply appreciate all the inciteful postings I'm finding on these forums. They make my life a LOT more interesting! Thank you all. |
|
Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 468 Registered: Feb-04 | Ghia, Two Cents, Kegger etc Well I received and have listened to The Flaming Lips' "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots" and I will rate it on the other thread shortly. First, it's not me, however I like it - a lot. It is techo Beatles (and I hate techno music), shades of Pink Floyd and a bit of this and that, but it is obviously all Flaming Lips. It is not a recording I would listen to very often though I have to recommend it as the recording you must have (as Two Cents says) to show off your surround system. Actually, it is the recording to have in order to give others an excellent idea of hi-res surround capabilities. Sounds go in circles (not just from speaker to speaker), they pass you by, they go over you and they go through you. No - it's not natural! It's not a "you are there" or "they are here" type of thing. It's a deliberate mind trip type of thing! Musically, I think TFL's are not bad and I like surround videos also. Put it this way: it is fun and a worthwhile experience and it is definately the one to throw on when friends come around who know nothing about the hi-res surround formats. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 851 Registered: Dec-03 | nice detailed description rantz. i want it! |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 272 Registered: Feb-04 | My Rantz, Gotta admire your adventurous spirit! Your description of the surround sound effects of "Yoshimi" is spot on. It's a trip. It's worth listening to in different states of mind, so to speak. Perhaps the music will grow on you with a few more spins. I know it did for me. The music isn't exactly techno. It's mostly acoustic with a lot of electronic effects. Beck and The Flaming Lips toured together a couple of years ago and they obviously learned a lot from each other. From what I've read of Kegger's posts on the benefits of surround sound, it should be right up his alley. Before there was multichannel DVD-A/SACD, The Flaming Lips released their own version of surround sound. It consisted of four separate CDs meant to be played simultaneously on four stereo systems--8 speakers arranged around the listener producing distinct sounds. With this kind of experimental spirit, it's no wonder that The Flaming Lips has produced one of the most aurally exciting surround sound discs out there. |
|
Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 475 Registered: Feb-04 | 2C My wife admired my adventurous spirit also - her comments were "interesting, I'm not sure, incredible surround effects." I guess you're right about it not being real techno, but for us it is alternative. I do like it and it is something very different. And I agree that Kegger will like it also - I'm sure! The clips are good also. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1748 Registered: Dec-03 | 2c, "How is Op. 131 not a self-conscious, introspective work?". I was intrigued by that remark - thank you - and listened again (Talich Quartet). To me, it is not self conscious, introspective; not at all. Every Beethoven quartet, including that one, just sort of cheers me up and makes me feel good about the world, but in a way that does not seem false, or artificial. The bottom line would be something like "This proves there are seriously good grounds for optimism". The contrast between late Beethoven and late Mahler could not be greater, in my view. I suppose I am still down on romanticism, including musical hard-luck stories. "Look at me!; Look at me!" Suffering may be a spur to creativity but I don't, personally, resonate to appeals for sympathy, unless they are part of the plot (I think of Purcell's "Dido's lament" from "Dido and Aenius" and thousands of other things - NO, NOT THAT "DIDO"). A composer's job is to write music, not tell everyone what a tough life it is being a composer. He should pull himself together. If he doesn't like composing, there are lots of other useful jobs for good guys.... Don't you think Mahler's expecatations were a little, er, grandiose.....? That he took himself a bit too, like, seriously....? There was, at that time, some serious stuff happening which peasants like A family members had to go and sort out. I am not sure the problem was not caused, in the first place, by guys, like Mahler, but ones with more clout, thinking they had a right to change the world because of their unique and super-human gifts; "the masses" could sort out any mess, in the unlikely even of problems - they didn't count for anything, so it was not a problem, they were expendable, and would, in any case, be grateful for the chance to serve the supreme will of the ubermenschen. Read Nitsche. If you can. What a total loser. Trouble is, he took so many others with him. I guess I am simply and deep-dyed anti-romantic. I noticed your recommendation, 2c, for helping along appreciation of The Flaming Lips' "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots". I am not opposed to that, it is a free world, and a lot of the 19C romantics were on the same ride, but it is more or less the opposite of what I look for in music, and pretty well everything else. The world, and people, are far stranger than they appear to be at first sight. I get a buzz from try to make sense of things, not the reverse. Beethoven seems to help, somehow. Could be just more advanced self-delusion, of course, but I don't really think so. The more I think of it, the less likely that seems. Sorry this must seem solemn and boring. I am out-genré-ed, here! I wrote a couple of months ago to 2c on another thread" "Where else would I have heard of The Flaming Lips? Many thanks. I confess I didn't notice their hit "She don't use jelly". Now, I'll listen out especially for "Ego Tripping at the Gates of Hell". See what I mean.....?! Are they not trying, just a bit too hard, to broadcast something about themselves....? Tut, tut what naughty boys they must be. I hope they register the disapproval they undoubtedly seek, and it cheers their day. All the best. (About me: boring old phart, but you knew that already) |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 34 Registered: Jul-04 | John A. - I can't believe it - I had just written a wonderful, perfect reply to you, and POOF, somehow it just disappeared! Sigh. At my advanced age, I don't have the strength to go through it all again - so - an outline. First, I agree in part with Two cents: the Beethoven op. 131 is introspective, but not self-concscious, if he meant self-pity in his remarks. As an obvious anti-Romantic music-lover, your bias shows, sir. But despite that, I wonder how you can listen to the 1st movement, Adagio non troppo, without a sense of introspection. I nearly panicked, thinking that I'd given away any or all my CDs of 131, aka string quartet No. 14. Whew - finally found one copy - Philips 422 341-2, a marvelous disc by the Quarneri Quartet. Sir, I must disagree with you on your introspection remarks - but agree with you that the Beethoven works do have an up-lifting quality. Won't bore you further - we have a basic listening or preference disagreement. I only hope that this discussion has one out-flow: that more people on this forum discover Beethoven for themselves, and revel in his mastery! Respectfully - LR |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1749 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry, I have lost many posts the same way. Sometimes I write off-line and then paste the text from a saved file, into the message window, but these can get too long. I also have a consistent track record of double posts. As I said before, and you commented on it, I don't think there is much one can say about music, really, except technical things, and whether one likes it or not. If one tries to explain why, one ends up writing mostly about oneself. Yes, by disposition I am an anti-romantic, and always say, jokingly, it would have been a good idea to miss out the 19th century. It worries me that no-one learned. Nationalism and hero-worship still seem to breaking out everywhere. Beethoven was down on all that. I would like nothing better than to discuss Beethoven Qts. I have a number of different versions. They all sound wonderful, to me. As regards the "old dogs" topic, I have some stereo CDs which definitely sound good in matrixed surround. Not so, string quartets. That is where I revert to "stereo rules", though it could just be the recordings. I tried one of the Brilliant Classics Rubio Qt Shostakovich Qts. recently in NAD "EARS", thinking that, since it was recorded live, in church, it might sound convincing in surround. It was dire. I would still like to hear some high-resolution recordings, however. Probably the first in will be The Kronos Quartet, and they will be flying round the room, perhaps with their own arrangement of "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots". |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 274 Registered: Feb-04 | John A., I appreciate your recent posts, especially Opus 1748. As usual, they are stimulating and lucid. Despite our obvious differences, I have no issue with your point-of-view and I don't wish to try to change it. I would, though, like to make a few points that may shed light on the topic. Mahler was a man of his time. His contemporaries included Freud, whom he was acquainted with. It's not surprising that Mahler's music is more "psychological" (if I can use this word instead of "self-conscious" and "introspective") than that of his predecessors. Mahler also believed the artist had the ability to sense the future. (Similarly, Ezra Pound called artists the antennae of the race.) And if you had a sense of what was coming in the 20th century, it's not surprising his music would be full of dread, thoughts of death, disorder, and wild mood swings. Also, his later symphonies reveal a waning of hope. There doesn't seem to be a God that can help us and uplift us. That's something that preceding composers always had. Around Mahler's time everything solid was beginning to melt into air, as Marx put it. His music reflected this condition. I personally don't consider it self-pity. He may have been attuned to the same thing another of his contemporaries, W.B. Yeats, knew. There is something akin to Mahler's music in the following Yeats poem: Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere annarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert. A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? (Another forbidden word: an*rchy) |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1756 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, Thank you. Wonderful. I need to think about that. According to my "sleeve notes" on Mahler 10, Mahler visited Freud, in the Netherlands, to seek advice about the Alma problem. What a hope! We cannot get into Freud, here, but I recall your comment on the Nabokov quip.... I am more optimistic than Yeats. I often see the worst lacking all conviction, having only guile. And, sometimes, the best can be full of passionate intensity. Personally, I would cite Beethoven as one of the clearest examples of the latter. Indeed, it takes all sorts to make a world. And we are all of our time. That can help explain, but does not justify. Many, many thanks. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 275 Registered: Feb-04 | Thanks, John, for that burst of optimism. We need it in the States, considering the political climate here. Yes, the worst may lack conviction, but are certainly full of guile... (As one political commentator noted, the war against terror is the perpetual war envisioned by Orwell as a means for the State to cow the public.) I agree not to talk about Freud and Nietszche. Let us devote our talk to St. Cecilia. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1757 Registered: Dec-03 | 2c, Amen. Hail, bright Cecilia, Z328. Text by Nicholas Brady 'Tis Nature's Voice; thro' all the moving Wood Of Creatures understood: The Universal Tongue to none Of all her num'rous Race unknown! From her it learn'd the mighty Art To court the Ear and strike the Heart: At once the Passions to express and move; We hear, and straight we grieve or hate, rejoice or love: In unseen Chains it does the Fancy bind; At once it charms the Sense and captivates the Mind. |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 35 Registered: Jul-04 | Two Cents and John A. Ah, my educated and cultured cyber-friends - I sit here and marvel at your knowledge and word-use. Seldom, in recent years, have I been in the presence of such intellect. Makes me return to the Shiraz container for strength and inspiration. Well - - if you think I'm going to get anywhere in the middle of a philosophical discourse between the two of you - forget it! I look at this as a written form of Wimbledon. BTW - I'm a bit confused. Where are all these "forbidden words" posted? And who are the word-police? As a newbie here, jest wonderin' about that. Now I'm going back to my music room, before The Little Woman (just HAD to put that in, as its one of my pet peeves) takes it over for her night of TV-watching. Sigh. Someday I'll have a REAL listening room of my own! Respectfully - LR |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1758 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry, One could also perhaps say that people who quote Yeats and Purcell lyrics on an audio forum are also trying too hard.... I do take 2c's point though, and thank him. "Makes me return to the Shiraz container for strength and inspiration.". Purcell had some great songs on that subject, too. If you post a text containing a "forbidden word", you are advised that it is not allowed on this forum. Exactly what counts as forbidden, and why, is an mystery, certainly to me. The name of Richard Branson's airline and record label seems to come up often enough; you could try that, as an experiment... All the best. |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 36 Registered: Jul-04 | John A. - with two crowns down and one crown to go, my tooth-centered life leaves scant space for humor these days - but I persist. . . Yes, viewing your sparring match left me wondering whatever happened to the "sound" aspects of this forum. GRIN For some readers it must appear that you two are the living example of one of Frederick Delius's small orchestra pieces - you know, the one titled: "On Hearing the First Cuckoo in Spring?" Hmmm. . . that's all the humor I've got left these dayz. . . Well, I was going to post something about my foray into the world of "who will replace Placido Domingo" tenors. A lot of new so-called talent out there - and for me, the man with the best chance is a young Mexican-born chap: Rolando Villazon. He's recorded his first CD, said to be selling very well on the Continent, and just making the rounds here in the States. I highly recommend his Italian Operas CD. It's on WELL, JUST GOT KNOCKED OFF FOR USING THE WORD: V*rgin Records, and the sound is quite good! I hope that either we can start one or more new Opera threads - or include more of that genre in this one. Don't know if ANYBODY out there is a fan - but, as for many things, I live in hope. My more-intelligent-than-I wife came in as I was typing this, and wanted me to include something about what a jerk Delius was. So, I will say that, indeed, he treated his wife, Jelka to severe psychological abuse - and perhaps some physical abuse, as well. He oft-considered himself the reincarnation of a Nietzsche "superman," and was irrational, rude, and crude. (is that enough, Merri? OK) Aside from that, he composed some of my favorite music! Enough about him - I hope that all who read this have a productive day, and a music-filled life, for without music, we are lost. REspectfully - Larry R |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 37 Registered: Jul-04 | Two Cents: (OK, OK, Merri, I'll write this to him - sigh) Sir, after reading some of your postings, I'd like to change the spelling of your two long-gone "intellects" to FrAud and Nutzy. OK, guys, I've passed it along. Have a, well, you know. . . |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1768 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry, Why not start an "Opera" thread? There will be a lot of interest, I am sure. There are many opera fans here; Rick Barnes is one. I am sort of trying to keep an open mind. I have not yet found the time, and family interest, to crack open "The Magic Flute" (ROH Covent Garden; Sir Colin Davies), a birthday present. I do not wish to watch it without getting everybody together; no-one likes to be left out. The older children thought "Amadeus" (extended DVD) was great, as did I, so I am hoping this will finally be my way in. I am, so far, still in agreement with whoever it was who said that opera is where, when someone is stabbed, instead of bleeding, they sing. I cannot suspend disbelief. We have a VHS tape of Tosca, bought by my son as a previous present, as a tease. It has some famous soloists with huge bel canto voices, bellowing sweet intimacies at each other, in a close clinch, and all I can think of is perforation of the eardrum. I made a comment about Delius's "Brigg Fair", above, on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 12:46 am. It went unnoticed, or prehaps people were too polite to comment. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1769 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry, I really dislike those pouting guys with the eye make-up at the top of this thread. They clearly fancy themselves no end. There are some archived pretty girls further up. No-one has seconded my proposal to bring them back. Would your wife approve...? Two Cents, Prompted by your comments, I have listened, again, to Beethoven's String Quartet Opus 131 in C# minor. This time, hi-res, namely CBS LP of The Julliard Quartet, recorded in 1969. I really cannot see how it is introspective or self-conscious. I would agree that the first movement is tragic, contemplative. The fourth is one of the wittiest and most elegant of themes and variations. The fifth, presto, just rocks. The last movement, the seventh, is bouyant, optimistic; surely? The CBS sleeve note has testimonials for opus 131 from the likes of Berlioz and Wagner, and says Beethoven himself regarded it as his greatest quartet. That's saying something! It was written at about the same time as the ninth symphony. I started with the Late Quartets. Then worked backwards. For me, they are all on the top of the pile of anything anyone ever wrote. I had the good fortune to have an Early Quartet, Op. 18 No. 4 in C minor, as a set piece for music appreciation at age 15. About 20 years later, having left "classical" more or less completely, I heard a small scrap of it on the radio, was transfixed, and just had to track it down. This was part of my re-discovery of "classical". I now listen to the whole Beethoven String Qt. cycle about twice a year, and never tire of any of them. I would buy any DVD-A version without hestitation. Even though all performances are completely different, I have never heard a bad one. |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 39 Registered: Jul-04 | John A. Sorry, I sorta paged through all those pictures, not being especially interested, and thus missed your Delius comment, and probably a lot of great humor! Next time. . . Just read your last post - and wonder: what's the difference between "introspective" and "contemplative?" Subjective,I'd say? BTW - having just re-done a lot of my CD library, I find that I have all early and mid-period B quartets by the Tokyo String Quartet - and late-period recordings by the Guarneri Quartet. All first-rate sound and interpretations. But I still consider the Adagio from op. 131 to be "introspective." (grin) Respectfully - LR |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 40 Registered: Jul-04 | John A. Re opera - it is an acquired taste, or a cliche, depending on your take on it. (can you put diacritical markings on this post? If so, how?) My mother, God rest her soul, loved Turandot (can I italicize? how?) and as a small child I remember hearing its tantalizing sounds. Growing up, I drifted away from opera, not returning to it until I was about 40 years old. Then, I became friends with some opera singers, and was "into" the game of serious "fine arts" reporting. You are right about the "suspended belief" aspects - many, many people just can't cross the line - and either scoff or laugh at the on-stage antics of a 300-pound principal dying slowly while belting out an aria at 160 decibels! GRIN OK - I'm thinking about starting an opera thread - probably "Operanutz, Unite!" or some such suspend-belief headline. Stay tuned. . .LR |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1772 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry, I can never resist pictures of pretty girls or questions of semantics: "what's the difference between 'introspective' and 'contemplative?'" . "Introspection" is looking within (oneself); "contemplation" means just looking, accompanied by thought; object unspecified. So I would have thought. So yes, quite different. Beethoven absolutely never contemplated his own navel, at least not in his music. He has something to say of universal concern. I do think that is correct. Yes, opera quips would be good, too. "It is isn't over until the fat lady sings" etc. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 873 Registered: Dec-03 | what you guys don't like the pics of me and the boys? at least ghia appreciated them! |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 48 Registered: Jul-04 | Kegger: Puh-LEEZE! (double grin) LR |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 280 Registered: Feb-04 | Kegger, the pics don't bother me, especially if you and Ghia enjoy them. John A. and Larry R., I feel that anything I write about Beethoven's music will be woefully inadequate. Perhaps I'll follow up with some thoughts when I feel foolish and brash enough. Last night, I listened to Op. 131 (Tokyo String Quartet, RCA, the interpretation I imagine closest to John A.'s) trying to listen from John A.'s p-o-v. Yes, you've got part of it, I think. But there is a lot more there than I believe any single person can fathom. Best regards. |
|
Silver Member Username: Black_mathPost Number: 144 Registered: Dec-03 | Last night I broke out my LP of "Loveless" by My Bldy (e-coustics wouldn't let me put the oo between the d and L) Valentine. Excellent sound, this is definately better than the CD which has never been remastered. It was nice to rediscover a forgotten classic and listen through my TT which has been neglected since winter. If you havent heard of this album and like that British "Shoegaze" sound. I would check it out. I may break out my "The Modern Lovers" LP tonight. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1780 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, "But there is a lot more there than I believe any single person can fathom." Too right, mate! Only Beethoven himself, I suspect. But it is accessible, not "difficult", that's the marvel of it. I could offer Op. 132 in A minor, which I long thought was my personal Desert Island Disc. The slow movement could easily fit into the "self pity" view, being headed "Hymn of thanksgiving on recovery from illness". But you come out being unafraid. Of anything. That's the miracle. That's what he can offer. Then - look, just stop reading, anyone one doen't like this sort of talk - the Cavatina from Opus 130. It is famous; people have written reams on it. When the Late Beethoven Qts. were "rediscovered" it was taken as clear evidence that he had finally flipped, and gone ga-ga in his old age. There was Beecham's cheap jibe "Ah, yes, The Beethoven Late Quartets - written by a deaf composer for deaf listeners." What the Cavatina is about is precisely "things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere annarchy is loosed upon the world,.." It breaks up. The first violin, in a soaring solo, disappears out of sight, completely detached from the "oom pah pah" conventional rhythm and harmonies (though still ingenious and interesting) of the rest of the band. It means, surely, isolation, terrifying loneliness, depair; "madness", actually - more surely, to me, than anything in Mahler. He is saying "Look, I have been there, it feels like this..." And you believe him. He knows; you've seen over that precipice, too. But, BUT - it comes back. It is resolved. He PROVES there is a way back. The world, in the end, has order, beauty, warmth, and humanity. That movement has made grown men cry, as I am sure you are aware. I happen to be one of them, but this is not about me. That's my take on that. Ben, Back to sanity. I've cracked open so many LPs over the last few months. It is exactly as you say. I even have some early 80s LPs with "digital recording" in big letters that sound better than CD. The DG I mentioned above is not one of them. It sounds dire. I wonder what their bit rate and sampling frequency was in the master. I know EMI spent years (late 70s) making digital recordings, and scrapped many, they considered they were not up to the job. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1786 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, again, or anybody, My case "Beethoven: optimist" rests now with the original ending of op. 130 in B flat: the "Grand Fugue", later published, separately, as op. 133. First of all, he earned his living writing stuff, and had no commercial sense. The publishers took one look at the original last movement, and said "Come on, you must be joking: no-body can play that!" They were nearly correct, but not quite. So he wrote a nice alternative last movement, less technically demanding. They sold out in no time, and so gave him, and us, his published op. 133. But look what his original intention was. After showing you the view beyond the edge of sanity, he finishes with the biggest of big tunes, about 18 minutes of it. It says: humans can do anything; life is worth living. And after witty and jaunty little tunes to contract with the massive fugal structure, it finishes like nothing ever did. Please listen, and then still say Beethoven was into introspection and self-pity. If that does not put lead in your pencil, you are already beyond hope imho. BTW played the Julliard LP. Terrific. My copy is marred a bit by the only serious issue with LPs, imho, pre- and post- echo; they get in the way of the music. Sorry about this, I realise I am probably talking to myself while you are all asleep! |
|
Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 188 Registered: Mar-04 | Kegger, Kegger, Kegger.... I've attempted to reply, many times, to your pic from July 17, 7:40pm. I just can't put into words exactly what I'm thinking, (in fact, what were you thinking?). Much like the novelist who cannot seem to get started, I end up erasing my reply over and over. I guess this will have to do: "Please stop." Advice offered only in the best of friendship.  |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1788 Registered: Dec-03 | Sem, Seconded. Where will it all end? No offence, Kegger! BTW I replied to your MP3 post, Sem. I really look forward to sampling some of your music. I can do the same. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 875 Registered: Dec-03 | allright allright i got it! just trying to breakup the intelect now and then. but i'm done. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1789 Registered: Dec-03 | Ouch! For all we know, that big guy with the earring might have written books on 19th Century German philosophy, and been just Alma's type.... |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 57 Registered: Jul-04 | Well, good morning, all! I see we have the continuing "Beethoven vs. Beefcake" dialogue in high speed - again. Sigh. John A. - I bow to your expertise in things Beethovenian - and Kegger, I bow to your knowledge of things Beefcakeian - or something like that. (grin) Though I'm not "into" guyz-pics, I've e-mailed a friend of mine on the West Coast (of the US) who IS into guyz-pics - and maybe he'll come on board and take a look around. Hmmm. . . John, I love the "deaf compositions for deaf listeners" quote - never heard or read that, and have added it to my music-trivia file! In reading about the lives and works of Great People, it is always the "asides" that make the litany of times, dates, places, opus numbers come alive, don't you think? Example: Frederick Delius - usually referred to as a "British" composer - was, indeed, born in England, but lived nearly his entire adult life in France. And his reputation for ranting and raving had its logical "beginnings." In Florida (yeah, I know. . .) while trying to make a go of an orange grove, he dipped a bit too deeply into local culture - and acquired Syphilis. The ensuing years brought on blindness and paralysis, and, as you surely know, mental derangement. In those years, there was no cure. I don't know if he passed the disease on to his wife, Jelka - but maybe some of you do know about that. All that, of course, has nothing to do with his music - at least directly. But it surely does make for better understanding of the man. More anon - with respect - LR |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 59 Registered: Jul-04 | John A. et al You have me on another one of those wild chases through my collection - trying (in vain) to find a copy of Beethoven's op. 133. Nope, haven't got it, so cannot give a first-hand reply to your comments. I'll check out Amazon, and perhaps acquire a CD - but I hesitate, because I am really trying to purchase hybrid SACDs whenever I can. New sound for old dogs? G R I N Giving your comments serious late-night thought (as usual) I stand by my original belief that Beethoven is, on occasion, "introspective." And yes, contemplative - After listening to so many Adagio or similar movements, I get a very strong feeling of the introspective. So go ahead, hit me again! (double grin here) This forum has so far added so much to my life, and I thank all who have posted, replied, ranted, raved, and generally tweaked my liddle gray (grEy in England?) cells. More anon - respectfully, Larry R. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1793 Registered: Dec-03 | "After listening to so many Adagio or similar movements, I get a very strong feeling of the introspective." Sure it isn't the Shiraz, Larry.....?! |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 60 Registered: Jul-04 | John A. L O L Verrrrrry funny (slurp) John! On third thought - you may have a point! LR |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 61 Registered: Jul-04 | John A. You may be the ONLY one interested - but the Hagen Quartet has recorded (for DG- Ugh) a version of op. 130 where they put the 133 fugue back in place, instead of the Allegro. FYI - if it means anything more than an "aside!" LR |
|
Silver Member Username: SemNew York USA Post Number: 190 Registered: Mar-04 | Excuse me, John A. https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=47070&post=114769#POST114769 Thanks... |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1797 Registered: Dec-03 | Sem, Most welcome. I got tired and did not give the link. There is a blast of a whole Mahler movement, in MP3, if anyone is interested, I linked it, first, last December. What worries me is that anyone surfing from that thread to this is going the get completely the wrong idea. "A picture is worth a thousand words". So choose your picures carefully. Kegger's last photo reminds me of the classic line from "The Full Monty":- 'Anti-wrinkle cream' there may be; 'Anti-fat-bahstard-cream' THERE IS NOT |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1798 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry, Yes, several groups have done that, and I have heard it done live, too. With CD, you can program the player to have whichever ending you like. The Allegro is great; the Grosse Fugue is off the scale. I don't know the Hagen quartet. Any good......? |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 62 Registered: Jul-04 | John A. The Hagen - yes, I consider them rather insightful players - young - and they do tend to slow down some tempos a bit more than such groups as Guarneri and Tokyo - but they've got a fine, full sound. Heard snippets of some of their stuff Online - but don't have any of their CDs. So this is "first-taste" reaction to them by me. As I grow older, I find myself drawn more and more to smaller groups (they fit in my living room!) and thus am constantly looking for more and better recordings of such music as Beethoven and Schubert. Away to some Shiraz, grapes and brie. (but you knew it was past time!) grin MORE ANON - LR |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1809 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, You asked "Does Rattle split the violins to the left and right?". I have just listened again to the first movement. There is certainly some melodic string part coming from right of centre stage. I doubt it is the cellos, but Mahler is notorious for requiring players to play at the extremes of their ranges. On balance I think it is the violas, and the second fiddles are in their conventional place, inside-left. There is some very high stuff for the first vlns. later, and a lower (but still high) string part just inside-right: I would think that is the 2nd vlns. If I had a score I could tell for sure. There is a long, opening passage for one string section, all playing in unison. Do you know which that is....? The other thing to be said about Mahler is that he does seem to love getting players out at the extremes of the ranges. There is a bit toward the end of the first movement that has one wind part nudging on the ultrasonic. I would imagine that is the piccolos, but you never know with Mahler. He must have had coaching from people who knew what could be wrung out of wind instruments, outside their official range. It is not sort of relaxed, natural-sounding. Perhaps that he is the effect he was striving for. Must be very difficult to play. I am also beginning to entertain the notion that I might need a more powerful amp. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1811 Registered: Dec-03 | Mahler 1, first movement in MP3 format; .mp3 file; 18.7 MB Warning: it will take some time to download over a modem. It is from an EMI Classics CD stereo recording of Mahler's Symphony number 1, recorded using 20-bit A/D conversion. The mp3 file, also in stereo, is sampled from that, at 160 kbps. The performance is excellent, in my opinion. It is by the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, conductor (then principal conductor), Sir Simon Rattle. The recording is of a live performance in Symphony Hall in Birmingham, UK, in 1991, and the CD booklet plugs the new Birmingham International Airport and B&W loudspeakers. On a good system at realistic volumes there is some audience noise: just the odd, quiet, cough, but that helps evaluation, as does the ambience of the hall. The dynamic range of the recording is wide, which is why I chose it. The whole first movement is a sort of 16 minute crescendo. Do not expect it to leap out at you. If you can hear clearly the opening, empty double-octaves on strings (full frequency range test..) and trumpet fanfare, sounding as if from several blocks away, a few minutes in, you probably have the volume about right. Do not turn the volume down thereafter, unless you suspect damage to your system. Fiddling with the volume control is manual compression, only for cowards and weaklings. You might as well hide behind the sofa. Sem asked on the thread, which he linked above, if it is OK to do this. I thought I would test the water. That file has nothing whatsoever to do with ecoustics, who are in no way responsible for its contents. I happen to think it is a good advertisement for EMI, the CBSO, Rattle, and Mahler. And it is free. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1812 Registered: Dec-03 | If you would like the original AIFF file, buy the CD (EMI CDC 7 54647 2), it is something. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 281 Registered: Feb-04 | John A., Another fan of the Grosse Fugue was my college roomate, who was as close to a genius as I've ever known. He heard something beautiful and elegant in the fugue, similar to the math theorems he was dreaming about. I think he would side with you in our debate about Beethoven. Thanks for the info on Mahler. As I wrote in an earlier post, I'm trying to balance Mahler with other music. I went out earlier today and picked up a Purcell CD of "Anthems and..." with the Kings Consort. It's hard to believe I'm paying to listen to church music and enjoying it. To counteract the church music, I also got "Aux Armes et Caetera" Serge Gainsbourg's reggae dub album. That should be a temporary antidote for Mahleria. If anyone's interested, I can give a brief description of these new discs. I imagine though no one would be interested in such esoterica. On a completely different topic (but still in the spirit of this thread) does anyone have any opinions on the IPOD? The price has come down to almost a reasonable level and I'm now considering getting one. Imagine all 9.5 Mahler symphonies at your fingertips! Whoopeee! |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1813 Registered: Dec-03 | Two Cents, I would certainly be interested in your opinions on those discs. I think I know exactly what you mean about church music. Purcell was no puritan, though. He just proved the Devil doesn't have all the best tunes. Speaking of whom, Serge Gainsbourg. There's a blast from he past. "Je t'aime" is all I've ever heard by him, I think. He should have met Alma Mahler. He might cure Mahleria but there are other things I might worry about catching. By coincidence, that Mahler clip I posted was part of a rather pretentious analysis/review of iPod, after we got one for our son, last Christmas. My post ended up so long that I decided to make a separate web page for it, not clutter up this forum with more long essays. Here is the link. In praise of iPod, but not MP3 I would change some of that, now. The aac file format is better than mp3, for sound, but copy-protected in some way, I think. I posted files but cannot even download them myself. 2c, get an iPod. It is wonderful piece of design. There is a review of the "mini" in July HiFiNews. I think they conclude the original has as better DAC, and better sound. What is also cool is you can make your own decision about how to trade off number of "songs" against file size, resolution, disc space, and audio file format. You can cetainly put full CD .aiff files on it, and get true Cd sound (I did exactly that with the first movement of Mahler 1; my son deleted the file when he saw how much space it took). At a rough guess the 10 Mahler symphonies at CD resolution (some are two-discs) would take about 10 GB. I think you could also get higher res, but you would have to start with a better source, than CD, and the files would take up even more space. Not 5.1 yet. I am sure it will some. So, even though they cost a bit more, get the bigger one, not the mini, with a massive HD. That is 40 GB, now. That's my advice. Most iPod users don't bother so much about sound (though it is better than most mp3 players), and want the "thousands of songs in your pocket". I always wonder where they find the time to listen to them. Since I don't like headphones so much, the "Airtunes" with the new Airport Express bass station has me even more interested in getting an iPod myself; Airport Express gives you a wireless LAN with a stereo audio out for your hifi. We have a small Aiport network at home already. Brilliant. (I send this from a G4 Powerbook, sitting on a sofa, not a cable in sight). I think there are a couple of iPodders here, including Ghia and Gregory. They will know more of the practicalities than I. Surely this is the way things will go, for better or for worse. http://www.apple.com/ipod/ http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html http://www.apple.com/airportexpress/ |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 218 Registered: Apr-04 | Larry R. You wrote: "....but I hesitate, because I am really trying to purchase hybrid SACDs whenever I can. New sound for old dogs?" Welcome to the club, my friend! That's my philosophy, too. I'm a little surprised JohnA let that one pass by.... :-) 2C, I've come to the conclusion I'm at least a decade away from being about to converse with the likes of you and JohnA (and others) regarding "classical" music. The recent discourse gives me inspiration though. As for me, I'm in full on Mahler mode. Have been listening to MTT/SFSO SACD's the past couple of days, Sym 1 and 4. It is very interesting how different these symphonies are from Sym 5 (which was my first intro to Mahler) - although, I'm not sure I can articulate why. They definitely seem "lighter". It would seem that Mahler's shift towards darker compositions began around the 5th? I know you had a nice explanation of the 6th symphony and it's ending of "total defeat". I've only listened to that one once and have to agree completely. The end is very disconcerting and unexpected. I've purposely not listened to that one until I'm ready to explore that aspect again. 2C, earlier I made a statement: "If Mahler had been born in the early 1960's and was a singer-songwriter instead of a composer, I believe his peers would be artists such as Aimee Mann, Elliott Smith, and Beck." What are your thoughts on that? Am I off-base or misinterpreting Mahler in this regard? 2C. Get the iPod! In contrast to JohnA's opinion, I like the Mini. Sure, it is not as cost effective per GB, but it is pretty! Uh, wait, you're a guy. It's cool and stylish! Of course, that may not mean anything to you either. Seriously, you won't regret the decision to get what ever model you choose. The iPod integrates seamlessly with iTunes (if you use a PC there's a Windows version) and there are endless possibilities for building playlists for synchronizing between the two. For instance, one of my playlists is built based on the following criteria: - only add songs I've rated with 5 stars - only add the least recently played - limit the list to 1gb of data This playlist can then be downloaded to the iPod. A week or two later when I want to "freshen" up the iPod, it will sync the playback statistics from the iPod to iTunes and will rotate the played songs out of the list and rotate in songs that have not been played. Using this method, I have heard songs from my collection that I had not listened to in years. Some folks use the iPod as a personal jukebox. I do that to an extent with the 3, 4, and 5 star playlists. But, I also will sync complete albums too. About 1/2 the iPod is used for the "jukebox" and the other half is filled with complete albums. When I ripped my CD collection, I used 320kb AAC format (Apple uses this....may not be on Windows). Generally, the 4gb mini iPod will hold about 400 songs at that bitrate. A lower bitrate would allow more songs to be stored - and might even be sonically acceptable through headphones. But, since I also listen through the bedroom system, I wanted the best quality I could get - without having to use the disk space required by .aiff files. The iPod goes with me wherever I go. This portability is less important in my day to day life but crucial when traveling. At home, I use it as the source server connected to my bedroom audio system. Still contemplating whether I want to go through the hoops to get it connected to the car stereo. |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 219 Registered: Apr-04 | JohnA, Very nice write-up on the iPod and the file format comparisons! I agree completely with your take on all three. I did a similar test last fall to determine whether my computer would be an acceptable source for my audio system. My hopes were to be able to get all my cd's on the computer and pack the cd's away in a box in a closet. This was before I got an iPod so, in my tests, the comparison was between the Squeezebox digital audio receiver and the NAD c541 cd player. My conclusions were remarkably similar to your iPod results. The .aiff was best, followed by AAC, then MP3 (not just third but also BAD). However, even the .aiff played via the Squeezebox was not as good as the same CD played through the NAD c541. It sounded "cold" to me. As you may have figured out, my cd's are still on the bookshelf and I ended up upgrading my stereo. Now, that I have an iPod the Squeezebox is sitting on a shelf, unconnected. Had the Airport Express been available at the time, I would have bought it instead of the Squeezebox. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1814 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Ghia. I had never heard of "Squeezebox" before reading you latest post. I have, now! http://www.slimdevices.com/ I quite like owning discs, stored on shelves, with attractive cover designs, and little booklets. But networked computers and file servers are surely the future of audio. When we have roaming Wireless networks, where your computer/PDA can just connect to the nearest one, like cell-phone networks, all sorts of things become possible. I am thinking of getting a PDA with Airport compatibility. I am not sure I can deal with all these "new tricks" at once. There is not much to say about music. I recently bought a copy of "Gramophone" and it all seems fairly pointless. The latest one has a lot about Jacqueline Dupre, the cellist who was a sixties heroine and died young, tragically. She made a famous recording of Elgar's Cello Concerto, about to be reissued, but any recording is good, in my opinion. I guess people like 2c and I maybe once learned an instrument of some sort, played in a school orchestra, or something, so know some musical terms. And Larry knows the business, it seems. But it is not necessary to have done that, not by any means. Probably going to live concerts occasionally helps. It is fun, too. I think you have it, on attitudes to the iPod mini. Apart from specs, I would rather not have to choose a colour. I know this sort of outlook seems odd to some people! |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 64 Registered: Jul-04 | Ghia C et al: Good to hear from you again, my friend - and I'm rather proud of you for "dipping into" Mahler the way you are. Takes courage, for sure! I've spent an adult lifetime auditioning this's and that's - and for me, "classical" music comes in many forms and sizes. The Mahleria being tossed back and forth on this thread is of some substance, at least when John A. and his cadre of intelligent-folk get into high gear. I fall somewhere between John A. and his often intricate reasoning and our mutual friend, Kegger, who likes to tell it like he sees it - full speed ahead and let the facts do the talking. Please - PLEASE - don't let anything or anybody get in your way of musical education. You just have to have the desire, then some guidance as to which composers or compositions might best draw you into "the camp," so to speak. As John A. alludes - yes, I spent some 30 years studying and writing about music, books and whatever fit in the title "fine arts reporter." Do I consider myself an expert? Hardly! Do I have lots to learn? Yes, indeed! That's one of the reasons I hang around this forum of yours - to learn, to question, to share whatever ideas of value I might have. I am not a philospher, like some others on this forum. I am - well, WAS - a journalist. For decades I had editors of one stripe or another hanging over my shoulders, yelling: "make it shorter!" Well - as I now attempt to write a novel, those ghost-voices haunt me still. To expand my writing to the level of Two Cents, Jan and John A. I have to whack those voices on the head, and proceed. Not often successfully. . . So - Ghia C - keep questioning. Jan, Two Cents and John A. - keep illuminating. Kegger - keep on with that straight talk of yours - it clears the mind! OK - away to a spot of lunch. Hey - thank all of you for yanking me out of cultural isolation here in "beautiful downtown" Naples, Florrid-Uh! Respectfully - Larry R. |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 220 Registered: Apr-04 | JohnA, You wrote: "Probably going to live concerts occasionally helps. It is fun, too." Agreed. I think part of my frustration (not in listening but in being able to converse) is not recognizing the instrumentation or the seating arrangement of the orchestra, etc. Getting out to some live shows will help with this. I'm going to start going to some of the local symphony performances but, the jewel I have my eye on is going to SF next March to experience the MTT/SFSO performance of Mahler's 7th. In fact, I'm going to make it a mission to see a MTT/SFSO Mahler performance each season. I did decide to take a mini-break from Mahler today. Today's rotation has been Debussey, Chopin Piano Sonatas, and, currently Szell/Cleveland Orchestra's Beethoven 9th Symphony. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1817 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry, Thanks! I am slighly embarrassed that my rambling elicits such praise. Ghia, Choose your seats with some thought. Cheap seats can be behind a pillar, so you can't see, and about a mile from the platform. Best seats in my opinion are close to the orchestra, near the centre, but not so close you are below platform level. You want to be able to see, as well as hear, everything, if possible. Seating makes a big difference. Larry and others may wish to comment. Being able to distinguish sounds of different instruments helps a lot in visualizing what is going on. There is an fine piece of music by Benjamin Britten called "Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra". It is written as "theme and variations" (like jazz) on a catchy theme (tune) of Henry Purcell. It pulls out all the orchestral stops. The tune comes back at the end, in a most unexpected way. There used to be recordings with a narrator identifying the sections of the orchestra, and different instruments, which was the original idea, but I have not seen one of those for years. I'd love to hear that in surround sound. |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 65 Registered: Jul-04 | John A., Ghia, et al - Re going to concerts. Sigh. All depends on the hall, my friends! Generally, though, for full-orchestra concerts: don't sit closer than 5th row from the front. You're too close, and the music doesn't have a balance there. Also - try to sit within about 15 seats of the center. Depending on the music, farther off-center gives a warped balance - again, depending on the hall! Merri and I often sit in the balcony- within the first 5 or 6 rows of the front. Gives us a better visual of the musicians, and (again, depending on the hall!!!) is often the best, sonically-speaking. As you can see, my friends, EVERYTHING depends on "The Hall." Example: the "old" Orchestra Hall in Chicago had marvelous sound in the first ten rows of the lower balcony. The "new" Orchestra Hall has dead spots - and might be terrible in the same location! I think the main thing to consider - well, make that TWO things to consider. First, you must go there to enjoy the music first, and the sightlines second. (unless it is opera) Second, pick your concerts carefully - especially if you don't "know" the music on the program. Ghia, you say you're going to hear/see Mahler 7th. Well, may I suggest that you "audition" a disc of that before you spend the Big Bucks on a live concert? As several forum members have commented - Mahler after number 6 is more of an acquired taste. (my paraphrase) Merri and I never go to an opea without knowing the music and story line. We try not to go to a symphony concert unless we are at least somewhat familiar with what's being played. We don't like rude surprises while we're sitting in captivity! G R I N With that in mind, please go see and hear "live" performances. You will never hear recorded versions the same way after you do. Switching gears here: Jacqueline DuPre was a talented, super-charged cello player, whose tragic demise was made even worse by her then-husband, Daniel Barenboim (who mercifully will leave the Chicago Symphony after next season). Books and magazine articles have been written about how, when she was deteriorating in health, he left her for another woman, and had a child by her, while flaunting that relationship rather widely. Many people have despised him for that, and it has colored his reputation as pianist and conductor. When he took over for my late friend, Sir Georg Solti, many of the musicians nearly rioted, they were so upset. And my fellow reviewers skewered him on a regular basis for his "wimpy, uneven" style. Sigh. That in mind - Ms. DuPre was simply "fireworks," and her recordings have always been collectors' items. With cello concertos, I pick her and the estimable Yo Yo Ma for my favorites. Janos Starker is great on technique, but cold in performance. Mische Maisky (sp?) is getting good reviews, but I've just never been a "fan" of his playing. Hey - it's all "one man's" opinion - but I strongly suggest (re John A. and his comments) either DePre or YoYo Ma. Oh, yes: Young Person's Guide is a wonderful piece - highly recommend it. Also - jest for the fun of it, find Saint-Saens' "Carnival of the Animals" in orchestra form. Quite a romp! Too bad all those wonderful Bernstein concert/lectures from years ago aren't on disc. Some of THE BEST musical education possible! OK - on the platform too long. More anon - LR |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 221 Registered: Apr-04 | LarryR, Thanks for the encouragement! Good point about being drawn "into the camp".....There is so much music out there it can be overwhelming to know where to start. Mahler "speaks to me" so I've made that my "starting point". You wrote: " For decades I had editors of one stripe or another hanging over my shoulders, yelling: "make it shorter!" Mahler must have been told this, too! :-) JohnA, thanks for the suggestions about choosing seats. I will keep that in mind The "Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra" sounds like a good recording to track down. It appears it is still available on CD at Amazon (although minus narration) and is also available on video ($75! - will have to find a used copy). |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 222 Registered: Apr-04 | Cool! Looks like there is a version narrated by Ben Kingsley: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0152013040 |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 223 Registered: Apr-04 | And, there's a version by Simon Rattle and the City of Birmingham symphony but looks like it is discontinued.... |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 66 Registered: Jul-04 | Ghia C. et al - If you want the re-mastered Elgar with du Pre, it's EMI Classics 56219 - du Pre with Barbirolli and the LSO - on my list! Also - Yo Yo Ma's version with Previn and the LSO is on Sony 39541. A great album is you are a du Pre fan (as I am) is called A Lasting Impression - two discs. EMI Classics 65955. Amazon has all, and you can hear snippets Online. good listening! LR |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 67 Registered: Jul-04 | Ghia C. Yeah, Mahler might have had an "editor," but if so, he didn't listen very well! A man who SHOULD have listened - Wagner - if you ever try to sit through The Ring Cycle, you'll know what I mean! About 4,768 hours too long!! MHO only, of course - as I probably step on some Wagner-lovr toes! Sigh. Larry R. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1819 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry, I recommend the August issue of "Gramophone" to you. The cover Cd has good things, including some fascinating old radio interviews with Miss Du Pré (apologies for previous spelling). I will try a bit harder. Music critics often seem so long-winded and aimless to me, but I am slowly turning into one. I cannot see the point in inquiring into relationships. I could easily imagine a Barenbohm scenario in which he was simply chivalrous enough not to try to explain, or justfy, his actions; she was scarely the loyal, demure wife. Thus gagged by simple decency, Barenbohm had no means of defending himself against the Du Prés fans, who were furious with fate for the hand it dealt their idol. Who knows, and who has the right to judge? I guess I'll have to listen to this famous recording. It is all too chocolate-box, to me. Late Edwardian stiff-upper-lip composer wistfully writing in 1917 of sadness and regret, goes unnoticed until vivacious blonde in the swinging sixties finally realises what the old chap was going on about, and makes it come to life for the modern age. It smacks too much of skillful marketing, but I am an abiding cynic. I formed the impression Du Pré was a very mannered sort of player. All that rubato and chucking herself around always reminded me of someone breaking in a horse more than playing the cello. But sheer charisma does not come over on TV, and I ain't heard it, yet. Everyone agree it is a classic recording. It is a great piece of music, I grant that. I am in awe that you knew Solti. A giant, imho. There are several Wagner lines I like. The opera begins at 7 pm. Three hours pass before you are unable to resist the temptation to look at your watch. It says ten past seven. |
|
Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 282 Registered: Feb-04 | John A., You wrote about Serge Gainsbourg: "He might cure Mahleria but there are other things I might worry about catching." Had a good laugh about that one. That was worth a clap. And thanks for all the great info on the ipod. I just listened to the Purcell disc of church music this morning ("The Complete Anthems and Services, Vol.1" - King's Consort on Hyperion) driving to a hiking spot. I wasn't listening too closely, but the music was perfect for driving up a one-lane country road in the hills of the East Bay on a Sunday mornings. I was thinking as the choir sang its "Hallelujahs" that this is my church, in the hills, in nature, with Purcell proclaiming the glories of God. Although it wasn't a close listening, it was obvious that the singing is glorious on that disc. Ghia, Thanks for your thoughts on the ipod. Yeah, I'm a guy and as much as I try not to be macho, when the words "pretty" and "cute" are used to describe something I tend to cringe a bit. Size matters. Given the choice between 20GB or 4GB, I'd probably opt for the bigger one. What if I get asked about the size of my hard drive? Oh, I've got a mini... *blush* As far as your statement about being able to converse about classical musical, I have one word: Pshaw! You don't have to be an expert or know the technical stuff to write about the music. In fact, it annoys me when I read an expert's review and he criticizes all the technical details of the performance, but doesn't give you an idea of what the performance was really like. So, Ghia, I encourage you to chime in anytime with your honest impressions about any work. I confess I don't know much about the technical aspects of music; I only know what I like. To answer your earlier question, I think Mahler delves deep inwardly. He mined the same territory within the soul as Elliot Smith did, and Aimee Mann still does. Larry R., Thank you for your recent contributions. They certainly liven up the discussion. I agree with your opinion on J. Dupre. Her account of Elgar's cello concerto with Barbirolli could make it on my list of desert island disc. As much as I try to separate the man and the musician, Barenboim's treatment of DuPre has certainly tainted my view of his work. My simple theory about concert seats is you usually get what you pay for. But for some concerts I don't mind being in the nosebleed seats. I remember seeing the Vienna Philharmonic play Beethoven in the rear balcony, which seemed to have been full of music students. The enthusiasm in that section, I would venture, was tenfold what you find in the orchestra seats with all the corporate types. It wasn't unlike sitting in the bleachers at Wrigley Field with rabid Cubs fans. |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 68 Registered: Jul-04 | To John A. - OUCH That hurt. Barenboim chivilrous? Never. . . and yes, I knew Solti and wife Valerie quite well. To Two Cents: thanks - you saw/heard the Vienna Phil - in Vienna? Sigh. A dream of mine. And yes, you are quite correct about the "peanut gallery" seats - IN SOME PLACES. For those fortunate enough to attend concerts on The Continent or in Britain - yeah and verily so! Here in Amerika, I fear, too often the "high seats" are filled with rather unsightly and unwashed folk who know little of what they hear. The occasional poor, but knowledgeable, listener is a welcome addition, for sure! Having spent many a night in the "uppers," I know whereof I speak - at least here in the good ole US of A. At the risk of upsetting anybody else, I sign off for now. With respect - Larry R. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1820 Registered: Dec-03 | 2c, Larry, Great posts. Thank you for responding to mine. I shall back off on the Du Pré-Barenboim issue. My only point is that I doubt if anyone has a clue what is involved in the breakup of relationships, even the participants, on occasion. I do not know the format of the promised EMI-Du Pré-Barbirolli reissue. It was a benchmark recording and performance, everyone seems to agree on that. I think I have recommended the Naxos DVD-A of "Elgar's" Symphony No. 3 (Bournemouth Symphony Orch.) about a hundred times, but perhaps you've missed that, Larry. Please let us not analyse the potential for iPod-envy. I understand it is what you do with it that counts. What an amusing thread. Shame about the photos.... Best regards to all. |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 70 Registered: Jul-04 | Two Cents: As I posted to you on the "OperaNutz" site, Ms. Lieberson will soon be heard everywhere - as soon as MTT SanFran Mahler 2nd symphony comes out in disc form. From what I read, her performance was small in size but huge in effect! She also gave a performance - opening night at The Proms - in England on July 16 - don't have any reviews of that yet, but earlier columns in the papers gave her rave comments. If Tilson Thomas comes off with another "hit" with his Mahler 2nd, he'll have quite a string going for him. You are luck to be in the Bay Area, and to hear/see him and his "band" perform live. Sigh. Heck, you are lucky to be in the Bay Area - period! SO much culture there! BTW - there is a HINT that Lorraine Hunt Lieberson MAY join a chamber concert in Santa Fe next month. Friends out there say there is some talk of it, but nothing has been firmed up, as apparently she's rather busy at the moment. Hoping, however, to hear her "live." Larry R. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1839 Registered: Dec-03 | Ghia, anyone:- How to enjoy a live concert from Naxos. I like "The Listener's Job Description". |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 75 Registered: Jul-04 | John A. et al - BRAVO! Steinmetz is a must-read, so be sure to click on his picture and follow the bouncing ball to such delights as his descriptions of opera scenes and a jab at Public Radio's - well - pomposity? A fun read!! Also - am e-mailing the opera parts to my friends who are opera-newbies. Anything to get and keep them excited and smiling! Larry R. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1843 Registered: Dec-03 | Larry. Great. I had not noticed that the picture was a link. KZZZ scripts is just like Classic FM. The irresistible mix of relentless self-promotion with sheer boredom surely ups sales of anti-classic spray. You can also get it screamed to your computer. |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 345 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi Larry, I see you have met most of the "forum family" while I was on vacation. The funny part, I just returned from Orlando and Ft Lauderdale. As you can see, they are for the most part a deranged bunch. I see Kegger has been most naughty. I look forward to Opera Nutz, and will gladly join in. Welcome, stay well, and cheers! JohnA., It looks as though we have a new candidate for "Old Dogs". |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1848 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick, For much nicer photos, and the Tom Lehrer song about Alma Mahler, go the July 06 archived part of this thread (also linked at top of this page). It was a shame those photos were archive within hours; they briefly graced the page. One proposer and one seconder, and I shall bring them back, just for aesthetic reasons. I think Larry has not yet opined on DSOTM or posted on Teaching an old dog new tricks.... I realise that the latter is not for the faint-hearted. Otherwise, I quite agree. |
|
Bronze Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 76 Registered: Jul-04 | Wick, ef ahl - phso hea I am, jvost bak fhum dah dentisht, wif a new woot canahl - and am not pheelin to gudh at duh momend. I will weed phrew all yew poshtigs, an twy tah anfwer besht I can a bid ladah in dah efening. Phanks to ahl. Lawee Ahhr. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 985 Registered: Dec-03 | ghia any more discoveries lately? |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 225 Registered: Apr-04 | Hey Kegger! The only new discovery to report is a great song from an artist named Tift Merritt. It's off her new CD "Tangerine" which I don't believe is in stores yet. The song I heard sounded like some of the 60's-70's "blue eyed soul" ala Dusty Springfield, etc. Cool horn arrangements and great vocals. Gonna have to pick that one up - 2C, I think this one might be down your alley too. Other than that, no new discoveries....my b-day is this weekend so I hope those who love me will shower me with some new music. Wow, I've been away for a week or so and see that MR has departed? I hope he doesn't stay away for good. MR, if you do read this, I wish you good listening and will miss you! Hope you drop in from time to time! |
|
Bronze Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 13 Registered: Aug-04 | Ghia Thanks - I have renegged and decided to return on a limited basis because of all the friends I've made here. You'll find more explanation on "Thankyou and Goodbye". Have a great birthday - eat, drink, be merry and enjoy all the gifts! M.R. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1947 Registered: Dec-03 | Ghia, Many happy returns of the day. If you get a minute, post some more pics. Those at the top of this thread have stopped people posting, I am sure. Nothing personal, Kegger! Does nobody want a repeat post of Bond....? |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1104 Registered: Dec-03 | what john no more pic's of my bod? ghia happy birthday. wish you all the best. i am very intrigued with your music choices i'll have to check them out. have you ever listened to the cranberries? bond was vey good john but if you post more pics of women then you need to post pics for ghia too! IT'S ONLY FAIR! |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 226 Registered: Apr-04 | MR, Glad to hear you changed your mind! I'll have to check out that thread again to get the full story. I think I read it before you "came back". Welcome back, mate! JohnA If you post Bond again, it's only fair that Aimee, Alma and Kegger get their pics back on, too. Then, we're back where we started! :-) Kegger, Thanks for pointing out that some pics need to be posted for my benefit, too. lol! Yes, I have a couple of old Cranberries cd's. Love that song "Dreams". All, thanks for the birthday wishes! B-day was perfect! Today, my family, my BF and some of our friends spent the day in the Blue Ridge mountains. The skies were bright blue, temps in the 70's, no humidity and we found a perfect picnic spot near a stream amidst a grove of trees and mountain laurel. Great food, homemade peach ice cream and good company! The only way for it to be any better would have been to have my Ecoustics friends from around the world there. |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 227 Registered: Apr-04 | Here's a se*xy photo for you. Presenting, Josephine, Leonardo and Nikita:  |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 228 Registered: Apr-04 | And, here are the new tenants:  |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 229 Registered: Apr-04 | I'm cuter than Bond, Aimee and Alma combined!  |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 230 Registered: Apr-04 | Slightly on-topic....here's the system y'all helped me pick out:   |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1107 Registered: Dec-03 | cool pics ghia when i get my buddies camers next i will pUt some up of my system. really liked the pu$$y in the tub pic. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1109 Registered: Dec-03 | man i can't type! or read for that matter i guess. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1950 Registered: Dec-03 | Nice photos, Ghia! We have cats all over the place. They all look sinister to me. The latest litter is five, and they look a bit like yours; it is the second time the mother has escaped, disappeared for weeks, and come back pregnant. The audio benefit is that I have just filled my speaker stands with cat litter. Keep all felines, of all ages, well away from your speakers. I'm a dog guy, myself. Our dog is a pleasure to take on long walks. He just clears off, chasing wildlife, and covers five times my ground, eagerly searching out new scents. Leaving me in peace, to think about audio and suchlike. That's true companionship. BTW If those nice speakers (Monitor Audio if I recall) were mine, I would definitely put the left and right main speakers further apart, on stands, on the floor, at either side of the cabinet, tweeters at ear level, and angled in so that the axes intersect just in front of the listener. It will improve the imaging no end, most likely, for stereo and surround. Nice-looking set-up you've got there! |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 231 Registered: Apr-04 | Kegger, Get your mind out of the tub, er, gutter! lol post your system pics. JohnA I like dogs but love cats. To me, if I'm going to have a dog I may as well have a baby because dogs are high maintenance compared to cats. If I need to go away for the weekend, I can leave an extra litter box and extra food and water and the cats are good. The kittens were rescued from my next door neighbor. The mother cat wasn't letting them nurse anymore and the neighbors had no idea how to take care of them...just had them in a big box with no food, water. So, they are with me for the time being. My mom is adopting 2 and a friend is adopting 2 and I'll keep the little black runt. Thanks for the speaker tips. I agree with your assessment but room limitations keep me from implementing them. As you can see in the photo, there is less that a foot of space to the right of the cabinet and to the left is the main entry door into the house (so there has to be clearance to open the door). The wall opposite the entertainment center has a fireplace flanked by bookcases and transom windows and one of the side walls has two door openings while the other has windows. So, the current location is pretty much the only option. At one point, I used to have the TV part of the cabinet in a different room and had the speakers (the old B&W's) on stands flanking the cabinets. But, switching to the multi-channel system meant bringing the TV back into the living room. The speakers could be separated another foot in each direction and they are angled in. I just need a hydraulic chair in the listening position to raise my ears to tweeter level. LOL Will give it some more thought. There might be a solution I haven't thought of yet. |
|
Silver Member Username: GhiacabrioletNC Post Number: 232 Registered: Apr-04 | Ok, I thought of something. I could sell the existing TV, move the center cabinet to another room to use as a storage armoire and get a plasma TV to hang on the wall. This will allow enough room to get the speakers on stands flanking the bookcases/audio stand. JohnA, since this was your idea, do you have $3000 to spare to help pay for the plasma TV? :-) |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1953 Registered: Dec-03 | Not exactly, Ghia! I would ( and probably will) get a projector, not a plasma. Kegger is in the same boat I think. I still won't be able to help you about.... Well, no, you do not need to worry about a WAF, you have one built-in. who cares where the furniture is, as long as it sounds good.....? Seriously (and this is an intrusion, just ignore it if you like); turn the L and R speakers up the other way (tweeter gets lower), move them out, and angle them in. I think you will get better imagining. If not, it was only a wasted 2 minutes! |
|
Silver Member Username: MyrantzPost Number: 498 Registered: Aug-04 |  Sorry, the speakers are not dressed!  From top to bottom: Denon DVD-2900, Marantz Sr-7300, Sony VCR, Yamaha CD Changer - yes that is a lava lamp on top!  This is taken from behind our viewing/listening sofa. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1970 Registered: Dec-03 | I like it, MR! (I expect the cooling fan is hidden; or it is now winter, and you've taken it away). |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1153 Registered: Dec-03 | nice pic's and system rantz! |