Does Dish owns Nfusion in S.Korea. Is Nfusion a bait? Once they have lot of people connected to their servers the can track ip and can send legal notices. ? looks very scary
Quite different ... Is not illegal to surf a forum ... You can't prove any illegal actions. But a NFusion log of your Ip logged in can do just that ...
Sure its not illegal to surf the forum, but I am sure they can find out how many times you download the files also. Especially right after new file comes out. I am sure they can see the pattern.Also if you ever posted in the forum, they can track your posts and see if you ever asked how too or help other members in the forum. Those simple ??? you asked or asking for help proves that you also are modifying your receiver.
Pierre, your right. It is not illegal to surf a forum or download a file or even buy an FTA box.
As has been said time and time again, you don't have to do anything illegal to be sued, which is what dish and the other providers generally do. They only have to prove loss, which is a speculative issue and very easy for a company like dish to claim. On that basis they can sue you, if they issue a letter of intent and you try to fight it, they just sue you for more. DirecTV did it all the time during the H/HU days.
All any law enforcement agency need to start an investigation is intent, buying an fta box and downloading a file for it is intent, the dish on your house would be the clincher and they have probable cause. Probable cause is all thats needed to obtain a search order, or even search your house on the spot. Once they do either your up the creek without a paddle no matter how much you cry about it. Nfusion is no riskier then anything else.
So are you, right now. Anyone could be tracing you and dish could be standing outside your front door this minute, getting ready to knock and hand you a nice fat lawsuit.
You gonna run out and take your dish down? I doubt it. The whole "I'm not doing anything wrong by posting this and downloading that" is a tired old beaten down argument. It's been disproven in lawsuit after lawsuit all over the US and Europe. Everytime you turn on your computer and launch that Firefox browser, you open yourself up to a lawsuit. You don't stop surfing the net or running your website. You don't stop going in and signing up for FTA forums, so why stop watching TV? IKS is no riskier then anything else because if Dish or Bev or even Dave decide they want to make an example of you, your toast. You need never even have heard of IKS, all you had to do was end up thier list.
Dean Winchester, did you wear a helmet to class? Try to read what has been said above couple more times. IKS and searching forums are different things. Also, take a look at wumarkus forums to familiarize yourself with dish/dave letters and cases prior to simplifying everything the way you have done in above post.
If you took the time to read this forum you would see that IKS has been discussed to death. Yechnical explanations for relay servers and networking have been posted here and at numerous other FTA sites over and over again. Your jumping into a tired old argument with nothing to add but a flame. I'm sure everyone will be truly impressed.
Grow up and go do some reading before you speak, try the numerous threads on the subject at f2atv for starters. Or you might want to actually take the time to learn networking and learn why the nfusion connection is safe. Since I doubt you will, let me simplify it for you. Nfusions connection to the IP shown by a wireshark trace or any other method digital fingerprint tracking is one server in a proxy system. The information passing through that proxy server is relayed from three other servers at various locations which are not made public. Niether the relay servers or the main server retain any IP logs or perform any connection tracing. No data is stored on the servers which can identify the end user in any way.
Your post shows one thing and one thing only, you don't read and you don't take the time to learn the facts before you post.
Technicalities of connection relaying are not the point of discussion here. The point is that unlike everything else (one-way communication), IKS is a two-way street, and the "no data is stored in logs" is a weak argument. Why? How much of a squeeze would Echo/Bev would have to put on nFusion before they would agree to enter into a deal and, in fact, turn over the logs to save their ahrses?
The point of the discussion is the legal risks of nfusion, how IKS functions is as much a part of that as any legal ramifications. If you looked up a couple posts you would see a very simple rundown on that. Not to mention if you look through the forum you'll see numerous posts by myself and others doing very indepth rundowns on the legal issues that would or wouldn't exist. As to how much of a "squeeze" it would take, thats also been discussed but just for you, here it is again.
The first server in the system, the only one thats publicly known is in Korea. It would take a legal team from the United States to go to Korea and work in conjunction with Korean lawyers to determine what if any of the countries laws are being broken before a case can made. Even if such a finding could be made, they would then have to file with the court (in Korea) to request permission to have the servers lease holder install logging software. That order can be challenged, once challenged the case has to go before a judge. The lease holder of the server can request any number of stays while they gather thier defense to prove Dishnetworks or Bell Expressvu's claims invalid. In the meantime the lease holder maintan's the server and still has full access to it with no logging. While the order to log IP's is being contested, nfusion simply has to reroute all traffic from thier boxes to another server.
Even if the order to log IP's is upheld, there would be nothing but an inactive connection by the time logging began. Dish or Bell would have to start all over again from scratch in whatever country the new front server is in. Such a case could go on indefiantely all the while Dish or Bell would be opening themselves to harrassment suits since no laws have been broken by the servers lease holder that can proven. The Torrentspy case has been pointed to numerous times in this argument. It shows just how hard it is to actually force a servers lease holder to log IP's, and it also shows that even though in the end the order to log was upheld Torrentspy warned all of it's US users to connect via proxy. Then for the US users own protection they blocked US Ip addresses but left proxy servers wide open. That allows US users to freely connect to the site with no fear of legal repercussions.
What stops the nfusions team from turning over logs to save themselves? Money, the money involved in FTA is the tens of millions annually and growing every year. A box like nfusion is a cash cow and other boxes that follow in the future will make even more money once IKS is accepted as the standard. Whats coming from the providers over the next year will solidify IKS and CS as the only way to go.
To add to all of this, for everyone who's afraid to use IKS because of IP logging, Nfusion will shortly be the only IKS capable reciever with built in proxy software that will allow the nfusion to connect to yet another anonymous proxy configurable by the user. The end user will literally be able to choose the proxy they want to connect to, enter the details and be as anonymous as he/she likes.
As I said, it's an old arguement that been beaten down oever and over again.
It's also an accusation thrown around by people who have no real argument against IKS thats based on any level of knowlege about the law or how networking, proxies or server systems function. Making accusations with no foundation is the last argument of an uninformed mind.
oh by the way your post is longwinded....your the only one that probably read it all the way through..I would imagine repeatedly, all the while puffin your chest at how smart you look..
There is lot of roumour going on if IKS is secured. Well shortly it is - and it is not. Just to give you few points on security with IKS:
1) IKS runs on centralized server that is a share point to servers which relay on this server. Your box is connecting too relays not the IKS Server.
2) IKS servers require UDP connection, not TCP. You can think of UDP as more secure but the real difference is that UDP packets travell one way (request is send from the receiver and then fullfiled by the server but there is no guarantee on data delivery of the packet from the server meaning that server drops the link with requestor as soon as it get it - it may deliver it later on however). The relay - is really a relay in UDP sense - (request can be made to one server but another server may fullfil it). Since there is no constant connection beeing open it is almost impossible to catch the very small (tidy) request and data travel from boxes to IKS.
3) IKS Servers accept only connection that has receiver id attached to the data package. No request from PC or other device can be made -this really gives much trouble in idenfying what is the content of the IKS package or intercepting it. I am not sure it the package it self is beeing encrypted somehow - but it will be easy to do if not. With encrypted packages even if someone itercepts it - taht would become useless.
4) For the providers to hunt you down they will need to know servers that nFusion boxes are connecting too. To find out, they will have to intercept the traffic from the centralized server whcih is off-shore (but hard to do explained before). I could not locate the servers by looking at routers access logs - I can only find out the servers it is connecting too --- and surprisingly i saw different connections (rotating relays) --- which gives me positives vibes about IKS.
5) All the providers can do is to look that your connecetion is making some request or data that is beeing transfered from a server has been idenfied as suspicios - but before they can even take an action upon it - the new server can be set and there you go another round of finding it out will be needed. This is time consuming and very very tidious and expensive task (not that the providers can not afford it). Even if the provider proves that the traffic from your internet connection is suspicios - they can not prove that it came from your requests from your receiver (they can trace back anything beyong your router/modem).
6) "Dave" did go to small people on the first occasion of IKS (more then 10 years ago -- ohhh yes do not be surprised IKS is nothing new --- it has been used back in Dave days computer was needed that will serve ready descrambled packages to the receiver using waffer boards - card emulators) - but "dave" had physical prove to against small people (hardware needed to make this function) - unlinke today (no additional hardware needed - so hard to tell if you are really wrongdoing something).
The final decision is always up to you to make. I do not wan to sound encouraging or disapointing - use your own judgment - do lots of reading - before you venture into somethign that may give you chills.
IKS doesn't mean you won't go down just that you come back up much faster.
If your hooked up to the net with your nfusion and you come home and turn your box on it will tell you if there is a new update and give you the option to update your box with the click of the remote button.
If your watching tv on stand alone (emu ON) and it goes down you simply click menu+user settings+emu off and IKS will kick in when you exit to tv.
99.9% of the time its IKS all the way.
I don't worry about anyone getting my ip from the nfusion iks server as it does not collect anything other than an error log saying what failed.
Most have not noticed that IKS and Files are on 2 different servers and are ported to 1 that you are connected to. That should be enough for people to guess there is more than 1 server at work here. I think last count there was 5 ported thru a chain across the web to 1 point of access. That point of access can be changed with a click of a button. So what if someone gets the main click boom somewhere else we go lol.
Anyone that wants to can easily run a proxy on your system and your bouncing around the world anyways.
Now to the whole sending keys things. The iks does not at anytime send keys to your box.(illegal) It does how ever send data to your box so your box knows what to do to get itself going. Kind of like a A.I coding. No not any of the pyro team will explain that part for good reason. Why give up a trade secret lol. I hope this helps some of you out with what your wanting to know.
I am still not capable of understanding how you can be sure that logs will not get into hands of echo/bev in a future. You're either too ignorant to see the possibility of that happening, or have something at stake here and will keep feeding shiat to forum members to promote sales.
Use the past with Dave and Echo letters sent out to those who bought components from retailers online. I can not think of a single site that did not share the list with providers, but can quikly name at least a dozen of those who did share the records to save their ahrses.
Please do not throw technical specifics at me again, instead, try to see the big picture, or I will have to accuse you of wearing a helmet to class one more time.
So what your saying is, because you can't take the time to learn and to read thats somehow my problem? You talk about a bigger picture yet you can't manage to see that the FTA box you buy with your credit card could land you in court just as fast as using IKS?
By your argument, anyone who talks about IKS in a positive light is a shill for nfusion? So why did you even read past the first few lines of this thread?
The nfusion communicates with IP 222.122.160.39 on ports 62487, 62489. That server IP address is located in South Korea (Asian Pacific Network Info Centre) and is owned by KORNET, or Korea Telecom , the ports are always the same, and more importantly the server IP address remains the same. so much for the "scattered proxy theory". JanusVM runs a virtual PC under windows, that runs a linux machine with TOR and privoxy preconfigured to reroute all traffic on that machine through the TOR network. KORNET is in SOUTH KOREA (friendly to the USA) and that they are a commercial satellite TV provider for South Korea, having recently launched their own satellite. If the nfusion server is located on THEIR network, how sympathetic to Dish network (a fellow satellite provider) would they be when asked to turn over that nfusion server. Or worse, just monitor incoming connections to that IP so that they can record IP addresses without even getting the nfusion server. The legal precedence to sue customers and end users was set with all this RIAA suing MP3 downloader's using their unique IP address as provided by their internet provider. I think the nfusion works TOO GOOD, and in fact offers an opportunity for DISH to copy the RIAA and start suing end users.
If a realy proxy is configured properly, the whole point is for the person tracing it to see it as static IP. If it wasn't then any joe blow on the net could go off and run wireshark and find out where the information originates. A person with enough knowlege can trace back further but that would be illegal and would require said person to hack the front server. Any information obtained from hacking the relay network would be useless is court, even where lawsuits are concerned.
Absolutely, for numerous reasons. For one, ebay and other FTA sales sites have already been compromised by Dish and Bell Expressvu. So have many FTA forums. Moles are planted by the providers all the time and though most are known, thier still present. You never know who your buying from or downloading from or where your information will go in the end.
Anytime you download a bin file to load your box, that connection can be traced as easily as if you sent an email to Dish yourself. You may not have broken the law at this point, but Dish and Bev or even Dave rarely file any legal charges against an end user. They sue. You either settle or they sue you for more. Even the RIAA rarely takes and real legal action, they generally sue. As I said before, intent is all they need to serve a notice. I can serve a notice on my neighbour right now if I claim his apple tree dropped an apple on my newly painted car and I have damages.
The cable and sat co's in Canada and the US have in the past simply gone door to door in a nieghbourhood to look for a dish. People have been handed intent to sue simply because they had and inactive dish, bev or dave sub and an FTA box. It got so bad that the police in most areas no longer co-operate with the providers unless they have rock solid evidence.
Worrying about legal ramifications of breaking the law when your already breaking the law makes no sense. It makes less sense to assume your safe because you don't tell anyone you get free tv or because your box isn't connected to the internet. What makes sense if a person is that afraid of getting caught breaking the law is to not break the law in the first place. Don't buy any FTA box and then theres nothing to worry about.
Dean, it worries me to see that you're so convinced that buying FTA and using nFusion are the same in terms of risks.
Which activity do you think requires more energy (resources) on providers part - going door to door, or requesting and resolving IP's to send out a standard letter?
The laws vary in every country, where in the US a notice to cease and desist is effective, in a forign country that notice would be meaningless. The same applies to an intent to sue, or a notice of discovery issued by a US court. Dish could threaten all they wanted and be laughed at. Even if as I said, they went through the Korean legal system, within an hour of recieveing any notice nfusion could be operating from a differant server and it starts all over again. That has nothing to do with knowlege of Nfusion, that sort of legal "tag" is played on a daily basis with sites that are operating illegally or even in the greay areas of the law.
In the case of Brein v. The Pirate Bay, despite actually siezing the servers, Brein failed to shut them down and in fact wound up ordered to return virtually everything they siezed because the intial order only covered the front server and not the other servers in the network. Within a day the Pirate Bay was back up and running in a differant country. To this day they have paid Brein nothing and no user of the Pirate Bay has been charged with any crime.
Brein has been trying for years to shut them down, who has more money FTA manufacturers or a bittorrent tracker? Who can spend more on a lawsuit, Brein backed by every major movie studio and record label in both Europe and North America, or Dish Network? It's simple math, this is a lose lose situation for any of the sat providers if they try to attack CS or IKS directly by going after end users.
The bottom line: Yes, you can be prosecuted in a criminal court and sued in civil. But, your defense is equally as good as the prosecution's/plaintiff's case against you. What are the chances of these things occurring? Not very good. The likelihood that someone would venture into foggy legal territory and end up creating case law which could in fact undermine their own existence...not likely. In other words, since the law is so vague on this stuff there is a good chance a court would say, "Look, there's no way to stop this, so whatever law is out there is unenforceable, thus you have no claim." That would open the doors to the demise of television as we know it. The providers certainly don't want that. Look, we all run the risk of angering someone with enough money to sue or press charges or whatever. But the reality is simply this (and the courts are increasingly becoming aware of it) technology advances at such a rapid pace in a point/counterpoint manner that to effectively harness it in any way is virtually impossible. Remember Moore's Law? The same applies here. Technology is a genie that will not be put back into his bottle. This community is really like the pioneers in the sense that you can always tell who they are...the ones who venture where most have not and end up with arrows in their backs. So, move forward, and watch your back.
A bit of topic here but there's new information coming in about NDS Sky Mexico being open via IKS (Internet Key Sharing) on Neosat Ipro2000. We all know who NDS is lol
Winchester are you on Drugs? Haven't you heard there is lot of FREE to AIR Satellites out there. And I don't have to connect to the Internet. I will say no more only time will tell, only then we can talk again.
You can only claim a defense once your in court. If your dishes and reciever are siezed in a legal action, how would you defend against owning an device modified for the reception of an encrypted signal?
If you were sued, your saying you have around 50,000 dollars to spend fighting one of the largest television distributors on the planet in court? I doubt it, you'd settle, pay up and sub to keep yourself out of the poor house.
Bottom line is IKS will in fact be attacked with full steam from DN and Bev. It may be a good setup now but in time it will be part of the DN family. IKS is a always running platform but it does have its downfalls. Always connection means there is a trail that can be followed. Buying a FTA box doesnt mean your using DN. Connecting to IKS does mean your using DN or Bev for that matter. But its all in who perfers their way of connecting. Legal or not. But its coming....
Whether buying an FTA box means your doing something illegal or not is irrelavent. Dish or Bev needs nothing to issue a notice of intent to sue other then thier own suspicions. When they get to court they have to provide proof of loss.
As I aksed King Arthur, are you going to have a spare 50 thousand to mount a defense or are you going to settle and sub, hoping to come out of the situation without going broke? The old, I'm not breaking the law by owning an FTA box is an old as the "I can access the signals because thier beaming into my house". It's not a defense and it doesn't work because you are breaking the law. You can fool yourself but you can't fool a million dollar lawsuit.
Once the proxy app is released in the next nfusion bin all of these arguements will be forgotten. Of course then it will be the "dish owns the proxy servers" as the claim of the day. Undoubtedly a bunch of people will come out talking about how easy it is to trace a proxy even if the end users choose thier own proxy servers. Or maybe "Dish will just go out and buy your ISP" or god knows what else.
Why do all threads end up in stupid fights, and "let's see who's c*ck is bigger"? You have to read thru everyones sizing each other up to get a piece of educational information.
ok dean in simples is using nfusion is legal as other fta's how hard it is for dn to find the isp's for nfusion so new bin for nfusion for proxy service would it be more safe or not?
Nfusion is as legal to buy as a Captiveworks or any other FTA. Once you get it home and mod it, like any other FTA it's then illegal.
It would take a great deal of legal effort to shutdown even one server in the proxy chain that nfusion uses. Even shutting down one server will do the providers no good, the nfusion team can simply enter a command string and all the nfusion boxes will get thier info from a new server. It is nearly impossible for anyone to get the end users IP address. I proxy my own systems and setup proxies for others all the time, the statements I make are based on fact.
Yes, it has been said that in the next bin release nfusion will have a proxy built in to the software. You the user will be able to enter any proxy server address you like the world over. That will take logging your IP from nearly impossible and make it an impossible task. Once that proxy app is incorporated the nfusion will be the safest IKS box on the market.