After reading all these posts, it seems obvious there are some problems with the cable cards. Here's another one - if anyone has any input or advice i would be appreciative. Just bought a Sharp Aquos 26" LCD. Hung it on the wall and called ComCast to install a CC. First they sent a very nice guy who had never done a CC installation before. So he puts in the card, cant get the TV to pick-up or recognize a signal or any channels. He calls into his tech ctr gives them the card serial#, address, etc and they say the card is not being recognized. He says the card is bad, goes away, comes back 2 days later with 2 new cards. cant get either one to work tells me it must ne the TV. I take the TV back, they tell me you have to let the card sit in the TV for at least 24 hrs to "dowload the programming"- huh? Exchanged for a new TV - (same model) and brought it home to try again. So now I am in the loop between Sharp and Comcast. Are there any specific steps to test in order to at least figure out whether its the TV, card or Comcast? Its hard to try to address a problem when dont even know whether the installer was doing things wrong, the Tv is faulty or the card is bad/incompatible. Any experiences with Sharp Aquos? Any thoughts on an approach to narrow down the problem?
I'm not in the cable business but based on my own experiences and other owners' experiences, I would say that the vast majority of cablecard issues are with the TV.
Many manufacturers have new software that you must install to get the TV to properly interact with the CC. The first thing you need to confirm with Sharp is whether your TV has the latest S/W and how to get the update if you don't.
When you install the CC, the TV should immediately recognize it and come up with a screen indicating that you need your cable company to authorize the card. Your installer will have to call in the pairing info (Host ID and Data ID as well as card serial number). The card should authorize within a minute or so.
Some TVs need special setups to work properly, i.e. you need to split the cable to 2 inputs on the TV: 1 for the CC, 1 for the analog channels. Your TV's owners manual should have the requirements.
Finally, when the card is installed, you should be able to check the CC status via the TV menus. The installer should know whether the card is receiving messages over the network. Comcast has been using CCs for a while and I have had excellent service with my regional support people for any issues I've had which have been minor. Good luck.
I'm also having the picture breakup problems with my Sony KDF-E42A10, Cablevision and NDS CC. Cablevision tried two different cards with the same results. Sony came, replaced the B-Block with what they claimed is the new one and that didn't help. After the B-block was changed the card could still receive the digital channels, it just couldn't receive the encrypted ones. The encrypted ones tell you to call CV and give them the card and host ID. I called CV and they said they can't do that on the phone and that it requires another service call. At this point I still suspect the TV is the problem so I told CV to wait. I don't want them to come back, provision the card for the new B-Block and then have Sony come in and change the B-Block again.
I tuned to a digital channel where the breakup was happening and got the following data.
inband SNR fluctuates between 33 and 34 AGC% 40
outofband SNR 24
Do these numbers look good? Should Sony be able to get rid of the tiling with the card in the state it is in now or should I have CV come back?
Got a call back from my repair guy who asked if I had the NDS card. When I told him yes he said that he had to order a special B-block for that. When I originally called Sony I told them about the card but I guess they didn't hear me. Hopefully this will be resolved next week.
I have a scientific atlanta cablecard on a samsung lnr409d lcd t.v. My cable company is Comcast. At install it took half hour to update firmware and then it worked well for one week . This week I lost video on two h.d. stations and one analog station. I have audio on these stations. On SA diagnostic screen CP authorization has been received.The ECM count is good (800 or higher) but the EMM count is zero. Any ideas what is wrong or what to do.
Since my last post Comcast came to my house and replaced the card.We completely reset the TV installed the card got the hit from the cable company again.Again went half hour where the screen showed "updating firmware" got exactly the same result-all stations on the channel list but on three digital stations only audio but no video(same 3 stations as previous). ECM and EMM were now good.Comcast tech was befuddled.Called samsung went through their diagnostics everything was O.K. Firmware is from Feb. 2005 even though T.V. was made 4/06.Now it has been referred to their engineers.Any ideas?
I checked the diagnostics again.Now the ECM remain good but the EMM stay at zero.Cableguy (or anyone else)when you read my three consecutive posts have any ideas.
Our system uses SA cards as well. I have yet to see a CC work properly in a Samsung tv. I'm talkin probably 20 or better different Samsung tv's. What you are describing is exactly what we see after install. Personally my belief is that Samsung doesn't have their stuff together. I have spoken with their techs on the phone, only for them to tell me that I should bring 8-10 cards to an install!?! I take 2 cards, but when both cards yield the same result, only item left common is the tv. As you have mentioned I believe its software related. Cableguy did advise me once to make sure that the date and time setting were correct on the tv. I haven't seen a samsung since, so I haven't been able to see if that makes a difference. Try checking the date and time.
Marvin~ the fact that the EMM count stays at zero is insignificant. The only time you will see EMM's is when the card has been provisioned. If the card has been ejected or the power to the tv unplugged it will lose EMM count. Losing the EMM count is nothing out of the ordinary, as long as it initially got EMM's. The fact that you're ECM's are climbing indicates that the card is detecting the digital information, but because you are not able to view the channel would indicate to me it is not properly provisioned. As wanabtech indicated, I strongly recommend that you manually set the clock before inserting the card. If you can, have them come out one last time remove the card, run an autoprogram without the card installed. Make sure all the channels that are in the clear are working properly, then manually set the clock. Once the clock is set, then put the new card in and watch the CP Auth status and EMM count. CP auth status should read "CP auth recieved" and the EMM count should climb to a set number and then stop getting anymore. Let me know what the EMM count levels out at, and what the CP auth status indicates. If all things are considered equal and the numbers match what they should be doing, it would be up to Samsung to figure out what is not working. Unlike wanabtech, I have seen more then enough Samsungs to know they will work if everything is done correctly. Keep us posted
Thanks for the responses.Today I spoke to the Comcast cablecard supervisor who said that two days ago another customer reported exactly the same problem(audio but no video) on the same channels on a Samsung so he feels it is a Samsung problem.I am fairly certain that I set the clock manually when I first got the set(prior to the cablecard being installed)-but I will check that on Sat when I will be able to access the set.If the clock is accurate would you still go ahead and do what you mentioned in your reply.If so do I need a new cablecard or can I use the one I have(the Comcast supervisor tested it in in his office on a Sony and it worked perfectly).If I can I would prefer to do this without another appointment.What is an autoprogam? If you still think I need to do this, prior to starting(after pulling out the current cablecard) do I need to reset the T.V. Samsung has walked me through how to reset the set myself.The supervisor will send a "hit" to my set if I ask him.So if you still think I need to do this and I don't need a new card I should be able to do this myself.Thanks.
I don't think you need a new card to do what I mentioned. That's up to Comcast if they want to revoke and remarry the card and send it the proper provisioning hits. You'll know, as I mentioned, if you are getting the hits if you keep going in and out of the CP info screen. The EMM count should go up and then level out at a specific number, and your CP auth status should say "received". Autoprogram is when your TV searches for any channels it can find, and can only be done when the card is removed. Remove the card, unplug the TV, plug it back in, power it on, do an autoprogram, then set the clock. Once that is done, put the card back in and see if the supervisor at comcast can re-initialize the card.
Question, From the many phone calls that I've had with Adelphia's Data Center & conference calls with SA, that the card needs to see a minimum of 39 EMM's to trigger at least 1 ECM in order to view pictures. If I understand your post correctly, the EMM count will vary. Is this depending on customer channel lineup?
Cableguy-Thanks for the response.Do you think I need to do this if I check and find the clock is accurate. I know I set the clock before the first (out of three)cablecard was installed.
Marvin~I think if you want the problem solved, you should do everything you can to get it done. If the company installing doesn't have a clue, at least what I've given you should be enough to help them figure out what is wrong and how to correct it.
Wanabtech~ I've seen cards work with as little as 27 EMM's, but that would be because the card had already recieved it's staging EMM's and didn't reload them. Usually 39-43 is the magic number. As for the ECM count, it should always be going up. The card receives authorization to decrypt the channel, the ECM show's it's getting the data it needs in order to work. The reason the EMM count may vary depends on if the card has been installed prior on a different set or if it is new from the factory. It has nothing to do with the channel lineup. It also has to do with the provisioning of the card itself and of course signal strength for the FDC. If it's not provisioned properly, or if there are errors in the FDC it will not get what it needs. Numbers don't lie, it either gets what it needs or it doesn't work.
The Sony guy came today with a new b-block and my problem is fixed. Apparently Cablevision uses the NDS card and it requires a special b-block. Sony finally has a bulletin on it. You need part number T99860312.
I have a Samsung 61 DLP purchased in September 2005 with Comcast Cable. Up until two weeks ago all was fine. Then I lost about 20 non-HD channels. The Comcast tech has been out 4 times with still no solution but a test set hooked to my output cable brings in the missing channels. I am now waiting for Samsun to send me new firmware but it seems to me that Comcast must have done somethng at the headent to change things since I had all of the now missing channels for the last 8 months with the same cablecard. Any suggestions?
Cableguy-thanks for your input.When in the process should they revoke the cablecard-before or after the T.V. reset,autoprogram,and setting of the clock.Should the cablecard be in or out of the cablecard slot in the T.V. Thanks-I want to do this correctly.
I have a Sony Bravia XBR that has not worked with Cablevision's Cable Card since day 1 (this is of course after both the salesmen at Best Buy and the Cablevision salespeople both confirmed that it would!).
We had the techs out for the 2nd time to try and install it, after they claimed that they had their problems with Sony worked out, --but it still didn't work. They now want me to take the TV to some repair shop where they monitored a customer's repair that had my situation, and have it "fixed". They claim that all is well and it is a problem with the TV.
Beady--did you find your fix works for all Sony's with this problem?
Cable Guy--The latest techs that came to do the install killed themselves to get it to work--they were here for 3 hours. They checked to make sure the signal coming in was strong (installed an amplifier because they were'nt happy with the signal strength), and we had the same "tileing" problem on all the digital channels, but the analog ones came in fine.
I work as a dispatcher for a cable company & I have had success with getting cablecards to work with various model of tv's. If there are no signal issues or other problems involved I can more often than not work with my tech in getting the card to work. We use Motorola's in our market and the process I use with Wega's and Bravia's is:
1) Upon arrival at the customer's home, determine where the TV is located and that it is in working condition (all channels on our analog tiers are working).
2) Power down the TV and insert the cable card.
3) Power up the TV and wait for the set to display pairing info.
4) Add the card to the customer's account along with any pairing info. (Done by our dispatch)
5) Send an "INT" hit to the card.
6) Go into the TV menu and find the CableCard.
7) Select reset in the CableCard menu.
8) Verify pictures on all channels are being subscribed to including digital and HD.
I use this process whether or not it is a new installion or a service call. If it is a service call and the serial # of the cablecard is already on the account, I take the serial # off the account before the tech starts the above process, cycle it, then procede with the above. The channels will start to auto populate after a couple of minutes. I have great success with this. Tiling is a signal issue, can be caused by something as simple as a loose coax connection at the back of the tv.
I have found that each TV needs to be treated differently, but it took alot of research, trial and error. Cablecards can work, you just need to know the proper way to install them.
Barry - Have you tried this: in the menu go to the "cablecard setup", press enter then again press enter to select "cablecard reset" Or try the "channel list reorganization". If channels suddenly go missing, most tv's have an option in the menu to "reorganize" or "reprogram" the channels. The channels in your area may have been realigned.
Definitely sounds like the same problem I had and Steven Marcus had. Our problems were resolved when they replaced the B-Block on the TV with a special version. In my case the part# was T99860312. I don't know if the part number is the same for the Bravia XBR but I've read about other Sony TV's that have had this problem. In older models it was called the Q-Block.
I would call Sony, explain that you have Cablevision and they are using the NDS cable card. I was told there is now a bulletin at Sony that specifically discusses the NDS card and Cablevision. Make sure the person you talk to actually "hears" you. They didn't hear me when I mentioned NDS and Cablevision the 1st time so the repair guy ended up coming out twice. If you are on LI you might see if Sony can dispatch QualServ. When they call see if you can get Dominic to come out. He's the guy that fixed my TV and he had 2 other B-blocks in his car for repairs with the same problem.
Once they replace the B-block the tiling should go away. You can test on a channel like 713. I was told you may have to have CV come back out to re-provision the card after that because I believe the host-id is stored in the B-block. It's stupid because all it really takes is for you to read 2 numbers to them and they put them in the computer but they have no way for a customer to do that. For whatever reason I didn't have to get my card re-provisioned. I have family cable and the encrypted channels like ESPN, Yes, etc all worked once the card was replaced.
Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.
Hello. Thanks for this board. It has been helpful! I am having a slightly different problem that I haven't seen listed and am wanting some suggestions on how to correct.
I have an LG LCD 42LB1DR with a SA cable card. SA card reads OS Build 2.3.149s2 (0).
Cable provider is TimeWarner.
I originally had some channels that didn't show in the 200-300 range. They did another "hit" to the card and now all my channels show up. The problem I'm having is that when I turn the TV off at night, the TV goes into standby mode (with orange power light illuminated.) When I wake up the next morning, the TV is completely powered down (with no power light illuminated) and it obviously hasn't pulled any updates from TV Guide. In fact, it dumps the online guide. In order to get the TV to turn on again, I need to unplug the TV, then plug back in.
I've already had TimeWarner out once to check the card and have called LG as well. I've got a second service call scheduled for Friday. It's hard to troubleshoot because the problem doesn't occur for several hours, by my guess. The TV works fine (including TV Guide updates) without the CC installed (except, obviously, I don't get my digital channels.)
The problem is clearly some issue with the CC interacting with the TV. I'm on the brink of a "he said, she said" with this and would appreciate some guidance on how to proceed. It is unlikely I'm going to get that special CSR tech on either side that will know exactly the right course of action, at least without knowing who to call.
At this point, however, the TV is basically worthless because it won't keep its TVGuide updated overnight, so no shows tape on DVR, etc.
Chris~ You need to keep on LG about this issue. I have seen the same problem with LG and I know of other manufacturers models that have the TVGOS feature that don't do this, and this is with SA cards. It's their product and the guide is their feature. If the TV is in standby mode when you turn it off, it should be in standby mode when you wake up and the card doesn't tell the TV to power down, it can't because it's only an interface to descramble channels and map out the channel plan.
Thanks Cableguy. I made a series of phone calls today and if I don't get anything resolved by Friday, I'm just going to take the set back. I don't have the luxury of patience on this issue and I can see from the bulk of this forum that I may be fighting a losing battle. I just want a TV that works.
I called Time Warner today and they escalated the issue to "Joe." This made me feel immediately better. <note>. The tech did admit that they've seen this issue with LG TV's before.
I then called the local LG warranty shop and he said I am third on his list. I was actually able to give HIM some information, such as firmware information, etc. He was going to e-mail LG with this information and would get back to me soon. He did say that he wasn't optimistic because it's a classic he said/she said and that simply switching out boards won't work. He said LG wasn't planning a firmware update any time soon, but he did say he'd do his due diligence and run it up to LG.
Then I called LG. I do like how I don't have to repeat my phone number, the caller ID is tied into their system so I don't have to repeat my whole life story. I spoke immediately with a second tier tech who said he got an e-mail on this issue, just today. He took some additional information and said he'd send it to "Joe." No word on if it's the same "Joe" from Time Warner. Freaky. Maybe it's that only people named "Joe" can work on this issue. Strange.
So... I've got this $3,000 TV. The technician in me wants to wait this out and let my peers do their best to solve the problem. The cynic in me says I just need to take the da&& thing back and get something proven to work. (What would that be??) I've even offered LG to be their beta tester. Am I a glutton for punishment?? This TV is just pretty worthless without the TVGuide because it runs the DVR.
Your recommendation??
Thanks again for keeping this board. It really helps.
Chris~ My recommendation is to give them a deadline in which they either agree to have the problem resolved or refund your money. The tech in me would rather see them fix the problem, but I understand cynic side of you . Ulitmately it is up to you to decide when you've had enough, and nobody can tell you when that is. Giving them a deadline comes with a catch, make sure you get an email contact at LG who can make these decisions and keep all transactions on file to show what was said on what dates in case things don't go as agreed to. It's one thing to verbally commit, and another to put it in writing.
Just one more update as my Time Warner guy stands in the other room... I tried the SA8000HD which is the HD Cable Box my Time Warner provides and it's way inferior to the features that are *supposed* to work on this Cable Card, so I'm going to need to get this CC to work!!
if anyone remembers me, I had a rather lengthly fight with Sony to get my television working correctly with the CC. I really am not going to pass judgement on the TV manufacturer, the Cable System or the manufacturer of the particular card which is also in the equation. As a consumer I wish that the industry would establish an industry-wide standard so that no one else has to go through this. It is a crime that the federalk government is mandating movement to HDTV and has not forced the establishment of an acceptable standard to have the cable providsrs and manufacturers accept. I am now spoiled in my den watching HDTV. I would love to replace my non-HDTV in my bedroom but do not want to have to go through this again with a new TV. I hope, possibly against all hope, that by the time I NEED to replace that TV, there will be an acceptable standard and I can rest assured that buying a new TV would not put me back into this awful situation.
steven~ I remember you very well, and to be honest there are standards that have been established and set forth by the FCC and SCTE. The problem is the technology changes so fast that what you buy today is obsolete tomorrow (metaphorically speaking of course). When they set the standards, all companies involved have to fit within the "parameters" of the specs. The problem is the interpretation of those guidelines is subject to debates. If the FCC or SCTE uses the word "recommends" instead of "shall be" or "is required", the manufacturer has the option to use that feature or not. The bottom line is it isn't so much of the standard that is the problem as much as it is making sure the guidelines are pinpoint accurate and not subject to interpretation. The acceptable standards are always going to change, so if you buy a TV today it may be built to the exact specs and standards required for what is available today, but not compatible with what is available tomorrow. Does that make sense? One thing I hope you have learned from all the experiences you've had with what you did buy, is to research, ask, and do more research before you buy. There are a lot of people that can say "I wish I'd known that before I bought the damn thing" and not one of them is wrong. I wish they had known too, it would have made my job a lot easier in the long run. Anyway............it's nice to see you still come in and see what's going on.
I have a KDS-R60XBR1 TV that I just purchased. I'm in Canton, GA and have Adelphia as a cable vendor. I'm trying to get a cable card put in and working. The first one didn't work at all (wouldn't do a show), the second one would show all of the analog channels 2-99 and Discovery HD, NBCHD, CBSHD, and PBSHD, but not any of the other HD channels (HBOHD, SHOHD, ESPNHD, etc). Addiitonally, the expanded basic digital channels won't display either. The channels that won't display all have the name of the channel but they display "NO SIGNAL".
Here's the results from the SA CP screen: Auth status: CP Auth Received Prog#:1 CCI Bylte COunt 0x00 ECM: 0 EMM: 0 Decrypt Status: OK Powerkey Status : Not Ready - Waiting for EMMs EID: 0xffffffff BKS: 2000
Adelphia sent someone who knew what they were doing this time. This tech had someone at the "HEAD END" send a hit. That got it going. The tech who came out said to be sure to leave it on a digital channel when I turned it off otherwise I'll have to get a hit sent again.
Charter denied they supported cable cards until I pulled the "FCC card" which resulted in a next day appointment. 2 guys show up, and tell me that they've only done 1 other card and it didn't work so he didn't have high hopes.
He put the card in and it said it needed to upgrade firmware and started counting up from 0 to 3600. He went to lunch and came back. The tv's "Cable card" option in the menu was still greyed out so he said the tv is incompatible...Removing/reinserting card just results in "updating firmware" screen again... He said my only option is a digital box.
I called CSR and told them that I'm not paying extra for the box. I'll pay the cablecard price b/c that's what I requested. It's their choice if they want to get the cablecard working or install the digital box. They are sending a diff. tech out with both a card and box but wouldn't commit to low price if the card fails.
Any ideas on getting the CC to work or should I just get the digital box with an IR repeater(G-Link) and hide it?
Kevin~ the first thing I would recommend is to contact Toshiba and verify you have the latest version of software installed in your TV. You also didn't mention if the CC is motorola or sa? The fact that the card option is greyed out in the menu could be an indicator that either the interface is bad or the software in the tv is not to spec. Even if there is a problem with coding and signals, the card should be recognized when inserted.
The guy told me that at one point the option was not greyed out but then he power cycled the tv and it went away. After that, it never came back. I read earlier in this thread that a guy had the same tv as me and that the latest fw is 1.31 so I will check tonight.
i forgot to mention that the card was SA and it looked brand new because he pulled it out of the plastic sleeve(but maybe they just store them like this).
I am new to this forum and would like to add something that may prove relevant to some of the discussions here. I reside in Bangor, Maine.
For over a year, I have had a 42 inch Sony Projection LCD WEGA with a CableCARD furnished and installed by Adelphia. I enjoyed the HD channels and was looking forward to having more added. Although, the CableCARD did not allow me to see each show's detail, it did at least give the channel number and the channel name such as NBC, PBS, HBO, Showtime, etc. Whenever there was a channel issue, the card was reset by Adelphia or a new one had been installed.
After Time Warner purchased Adelphia and began gradually changing over to their equipment and sytems, there was a corresponding failure in what the CableCARD provided in the HD channels. First, the channel name was no longer showing. I called TW tech support and was told it was likely because it was not installed correctly the last time and it was suggested that it may have been caused by a subcontractor doing the installation and setup rather than an actual trained TW employee. (I guess this was supposed to have been better and built more confidence in their abilities.) An new appointment was set and the tech came, installed a new card, and received the info from TW via telephone. Still, the problem was not resolved. They (the previous Adelphia employees still in place) didn't understand why it was not working. As far as they knew, it should have. It should also be noted that the transition from Adelphia equipment and systems to Time Warner was partially completed.
About a month later, more changeovers happened to Time Warner equipment and systems. Immediately, several HD channels were not working at all and three others received video but no audio signal. I called Time Warner customer support and waited an hour. Their line on the earlier issue was that their service never provided the channel name in the first place. Regarding the new issue of the HD channels not working... They made several attempts but could not resolve the problem. I was then elevated to level 3 tech support and waited 45 minutes. Still, they were not able to get them working so an appointment was set 5 days from that date to have a tech come out.
My take is that the issue is in Time Warner's camp and they have absolutely no incentive to improve the situation. In a market where they are allowed to have a cable monopoly, the customer always loses unless there are enough of us with the same problem. I am reasonably certain that Time Warner will blame the issue on the TV, the Card's technology, or both, and only provide the option to upgrade to their digital cable box.
Greg~ For what it's worth, I work for Time Warner, and I can tell you in our system the channel ID does in fact work. Whatever the problem is, it is originating at the source. Keep on them, somebody will find the answer.
Help Cable Guy, I see you are an expert in this CableCard area - thanks for your help. I bought a new LG 26LX1D HDTV with a CableCard slot last month and had comcast come out and install the card [Motorola MediaCipher] and it worked great from the end of November to December 28th and then it quite. The came out and installed another one [bad technician - only had done 1 or 2 before he said] and it doesn't work either. CC told me to contact LG to get the firmware updated and I did that - firmware was the latest version. LG told me to try one more CableCard since they are often fickle and usually if you try 3 one will work. Looking for some insight and help. Appears Comcast would rather the CableCard doesn't work so I have to use their box.
Well hopefully you Comcast customers can learn from my experience.
The Comcast tech came out this morning and he was obviously more experienced with CableCards than the last guy. He immediately recognized the problem and said the Comcast needed to take the CableCard out of my account [back at the office] and reinstal it - wipe it out and put it back in from the beginning. He didn't do anything with the physical card in the set. Once he spent 30 minutes on the phone trying to convince the person on the other end to do what he was asking - they did - and everything began working immediately. He said that 3/4 of the cards he installed or had trouble with recently did what mine was doing and this solved the problem. It's workino now so we'll keep our fingers crossed.
Okay guys and gals here is one for you. I am on a Cox cable system with every option they offer and own a Sony KDF-55WF655 with the cablecard. Sony has replaced the tuner been out several times (over a year ago) and Cox has replaced the cablecard 4 times now, the most recent replacement 1 month ago. The TV continues to "pixel" every evening on ONLY the local HD channels and usually only channels 6, 10 and 15 which are 706, 710 and 715 here in the Phoenix, AZ area. I own two other plasma TV's besides the Sony and they both have the cablebox from Cox and never experience this problem. As others have said before one company just blames the other and here we sit. I have yet to put a cablebox on this tv to see if that solves the problem as I bought the tv because of the cablecard feature and don't want the box on this set. The cablecard is a Scientific Atlanta. Any ideas? Thanks
It's more then likely a SNR issue in the digital carrier. The only other option is that the local feeds are being corrupted by ingress.
Have them check the BER and MER for the QAM channels affected. Also it would be nice to know if they can tell you if all 3 of those channels are sharing the same frequency.
If it is at all possible, ask them if they have a cable card tv that they could possible load into a van to be used as a rolling test set. Just because the cable boxes don't break up, doesn't mean there isn't a problem with their signal. The tuner chipset in the Sony is rather sensative to SNR issues, so comparing it to a box is not going to indicate good/bad.
Update--Cox tech came out yesterday AM (yep on a Sunday) and happened to be one that was here 2 yrs ago too. I read him the two answers above and he looked kind of puzzled and said he understood most of it but did not know what the BER meant? I thought I am in trouble now! Anyway he proceeded to hook up his monitoring equipment to my wall outlet which also has an amplifier installed that they put in long ago and he says the signal is right where it needs to be between the hi & lo, I then explained that it was an "intermitant" problem and did not always pixel/tile. He then, and I don't know why proceeded to remove the wall plate which has never been removed since the house was new 9 yrs ago, looks at the coax fitting and declares "I don't know why I never looked here before or no other tech (many) have never looked here but I think I found the problem", cuts the end off and gives it to me and says that is the "ingress" with a very poor fitting installed on the end with ground wires hanging out the side and the center with tin foil sticking up on the inside! So he then fixes that then proceeds to replace every fitting from there to the cable box across the street with some "new style" stainless fittings. Well, keeping my fingers crossed but not a single tiling once the channel has locked on since he did this in 24 hours now. Thanks for the advice, I am sure it helped!
Hey great! One thing I learned early on was to check, double-check & when I thought I was done, check again. Fittings are probably one of the biggest culprits to digital issues. The braid hanging out the back will pick up off air "noise" and bring it onto the cable plant and will potentially effect the quality of the digital signal, as will anything metal based touching the center conducter. The result or measurement of this quality is BER bit error rate. There is a predetermined number that is ok, and when its not... well you've seen that result. Good luck, and enjoy!
Hey Wanabtech; It sounds like the above is just like the problem I described in another thread. Intermittent tiling on one QAM frequency.
In my case though, TWC has already replaced all the cable connectors and run a test line run from the main cable coming to the house to the TV. The tiling still happened. I suppose they could run a test line from the main post as well. But, if that produces the same results, please tell me if it is safe to conclude that the problem is some where in TWC's system?
And I spoke too soon the tiling came back tonight, called the Cox tech direct and he is talking to his supervisor tomorrow am, says they are going to do a "sweep" in our neighborhood (whatever that is).
I'm on my second cablecard (Scientific Atlanta) from Comcast. Both cards exhibit the same symptom - temporary loss of signal from ESPN HD. As far as I know, all other channels have no problems.
My Sony KDF-E50A10 reports SNR of 38 (in band) and 27 (out of band). These numbers remain steady even when ESPN HD drops out.
I've had one firmware upgrade on the TV for a non-related issue. Sony claims the problem is with the cablecard.
I'm ready to give up on the cablecard and go to the STB unless anyone can offer a solution.}
My experience is with a Toshiba 42HL196 LCD HDTV, a Motorola CableCard, and SuddenLink Cable (used to be Cox in our area). Suddenlink guy installed the card on Fri, 01-05-07 and couldn't get it to work after two hours. I called Toshiba while he was there, and they promised to look into it. Later that day, I received a call from the Toshiba guy, and after reading to him the information he requested about the card from my screen, he said the problem was relatively easy to fix if he could get the Suddenlink people to send a "cold initialization" signal, not the regular one they usually send to the set. After getting on a three way call with the Suddenlink center, it appeared they did not know what he was talking about. Toshiba guy sent e-mail about his request to Suddenlink headquaters, and a knowledgeable VP answered his e-mail and sent the "cold initialization signal" yesterday, 01-08-07, while I was away. When I returned, I checked the TV, and I was receiving everything that I had ordered. Maybe some of you could ask your cable company about this if you are still having problems. I did not want to use their set top box, and by the way, The Toshiba set has its own Cable Guide that works just fine with the CableCard.
The "cold" hit would be an EMM or staging hit. It's been my experience if the cable card in installed into the billing system and waits for a period of 20 days to be installed, you will need an EMM hit. One thing that I learned early on, was that before I would roll out in the morning of a install or svc call for a card, was to call the data center have them check the card in the billing system to ensure that it was properly loaded, and to send it an EMM hit. This way when I got to the job, all I had to do was verify signal. Then install the card, and then give the pairing info to dispatch. Once dispatch entered all the data, they would send it a standard authorization hit.
One thing that I feel is pertinent is that the techs installing the cards have to get serious about the customers cable environment. When I would roll out to a job, I'd greet the customer, let them know that I would be outside for a little while, and then come in for the install. Then I'd go to the pole/ped, then to the demarc, then to the set. I would check for any digital issues at each point. Providing everything outside was acceptable, we started the install. The cards seem to be less tolerable to weak or poor quality signal then the converter boxes. Most of what I've written hear, I learned the hard way. I would be very leary of anyone installing a card without spending a reasonable amount of time outside first. How can I troubleshoot an issue if I haven't certified the path to it. Can it be alot of work? Heck yea!!! I've went to jobs where I totally replaced every piece of the cable between the tv and the pole, and then had to have maintenance come out for issues as well. In fact several that I wouldn't even start to install due to line issues.
Let's face it, what do you as a customer want? You want the service provided, you want to have confidence in the installer of the provider.
I have seen a few brands of tv's that make me cringe because we never could get them to work properly with the card. Yet in speaking with the data center, we had the same brands registered to our DNCS in other locations. I have to question whether they were working properly. I've spent countless hours on the phone with manufacturers who quickly fingerpoint the provider. There are far too many variables to clearly devise an SOP for installing these things. Probably the biggest variable is tv software. Pull up the CC info on a Sony, then turn to a Panasonic and see what you get. It's different. Now compound that by the multiple manufacturers who aren't governed as to how it should be setup.
If you can phathom that, welcome to the world of cable tv technicians.
CableCARD: What Happened? The story behind another consumer-electronics fiasco by Ken C. Pohlmann
Point the finger almost anywhere you want. After all, there's plenty of blame to go around. Cable companies didn't really support it. TV manufacturers charged extra for it. The people who designed it left out a few things. And the federal government -- it started the whole mess.
I'm talking about CableCARD. Never heard of it? That's not surprising. It was supposed to make your TV-viewing life better, but it ended up just making things more frustrating and expensive.
Like most fiascoes, CableCARD started with the best of intentions. The FCC decided that consumers needed "digital cable-ready" TVs, which would do away with traditional set-top cable boxes. These TVs would have onboard cable tuners -- and they'd also have a slot for a CableCARD, which would handle customer ID/authorization and decode premium channels. Because the government can do anything it wants, especially when that thing is for "the public good," the FCC forced CableCARD onto the industry by banning cable companies from offering set-top boxes at some future date. (The actual date keeps changing. For now, it's July 2007.)
Complying, TV manufacturers started making sets with tuners and CableCARD slots. Cable companies started providing CableCARDs -- physically, the footprint of a PCMCIA Type II card. And what a technological wonder it was. The card simply plugged into the slot, and the set-top box was gone forever. Clearly, your life was suddenly immeasurably better. Except for one thing. CableCARD sucked.
The first thing that customers noticed: Their CableCARD-ready TVs were expensive. Early on, the price difference was truly staggering. One Pioneer plasma TV with CableCARD cost almost $1,000 more than the identical model without it. Price differences did drop to about $40, but something extra is never free.
The second thing that customers noticed: Some of the most important TV features -- pay-per-view (PPV), video-on-demand (VOD), electronic programming guides -- didn't work on a CableCARD TV. It was a one-way device that couldn't interact with your cable company. So, consumers paid a lot more and got a lot less. Your government at work!
Sure, CableCARD had some benefits. First, it did eliminate that tremendously unsightly set-top box (which was always the first thing that anyone saw when they entered your living room). Second, accordingly, you needed only one remote to control the TV -- no separate remote for a set-top box. Third ... well, I can't think of another benefit. Sorry.
The fundamental problem -- where do I start? -- was that CableCARD was a half-baked technology, and federally mandating its adoption was a premature mistake. Ironically, CableCARD is already obsolete. A CableCARD 2.0 standard is being prepared that supposedly will fix many of the limitations and problems of the original. CableCARD 2.0 is known as Interactive Digital Cable Ready, and as that name implies, it should fix the non-interactivity problem. But TVs with original CableCARD slots won't be compatible with 2.0's interactive features. And frankly, after getting burned on 1.0, how many people will willingly pay extra to take a chance on CableCARD Part Deux?
The new standard is also a bad bet because it, too, may become obsolete, fast. Software standards known as OpenCable Application Platform and Downloadable Conditional Access System are being developed that may provide all the functionality, ease of use, and security that today's HDTVs need.
So, what's the bottom line? Six million CableCARD-ready TVs have been sold, and fewer than 3% of the slots actually have cards; that's a lot of wasted money. After offering CableCARD for 2 years, TV makers have started to delete it (with 80% fewer models available this year than last year). Cable companies aren't sorry to see it go; they derive mucho income from PPV and VOD, and CableCARD didn't allow for them. The only life support for CableCARD is that it does work well for some cable customers, and it's fine for home theater PC systems like the Microsoft Vista Media Center, with its Internet access and proprietary program guide. Beyond that, CableCARD probably won't be inducted into the Pantheon of Great Audio/Video Technology.
Fortunately, there's a happy ending to all of this. After studying the CableCARD specs, I've discovered an extremely useful application that even the original designers didn't anticipate. To take advantage of it, here's what you do: Find a scrap of paper and write down your complaints about CableCARD's utter lack of functionality, then wad up the paper and stuff it into the slot on the back on your TV. Thanks to the space-age technology of CableCARD, the contents of your note will be transmitted instantly to the FCC. Highly paid government officials will leap into action to address your concerns and mail you a refund check. After all, the FCC is always acting in your best interests. And the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions.
UPDATE - November, 2006
The federal government is reading my innermost thoughts again. Last month, I slammed the FCC's decision to force CableCARD into new TVs. You'll recall that CableCARD is essentially a cable box in a PCMCIA Type II card.
Brilliant idea, except for the facts: 1) CableCARD is fundamentally flawed because it can't support features such as interactive program guides, video-on-demand, and pay-per-view. 2) It has created its own incompatibility nightmare because CableCARD 2.0 may allow all of those features, but 2.0 cards won't work in TVs that already have CableCARD slots. 3) The whole thing could become obsolete very soon because of new software standards.
Meanwhile, 6 million TVs with CableCARD slots have been sold. If you estimate that a slot added $300 to the cost of a TV, then we've paid $1.8 billion for all of those slots. But less than 3% of those 6 million TVs actually have cards plugged in -- which means that each working CableCARD has cost consumers $10,000! Any way you price it, CableCARD has failed in the marketplace, and manufacturers have virtually stopped putting the slots in their new TVs.
That will now change. Reading my deep thoughts, the government rigged up a lawsuit, and a federal appeals court upheld the FCC mandate requiring cable companies to distribute the failed CableCARD. The FCC's deadline: July 2007. Words cannot describe what I am thinking. And apparently my tinfoil hat can't prevent the government from listening.
In response to Mr Pohlmann's coverage of CableCARD, Lee C. Milstein of Del Mar Ca. writes to S&V's editors in the Feb/Mar 2007 issue:
I'm an attorney who's represented satellite and cable companies on FCC matters, and I'm now in-house counsel for a media/technology in the video space. I'm impressed by Sound and Vision's coverage of CableCARD, but surprised at where that coverage has placed blame for CableCARD's failure. It's true that the FCC mandated the technology without a proven market for it, but not true that they did so without a proven need for it. That became most obvious when TiVo released its set top box that could directly control cable boxes, only to have cable companies respond by disabling those ports on "their" boxes. This anti-competitive, monopolistic behavior stifles innovation and demonstrates the need for government intervention.
The real problem with CableCARD, and the reason so many CableCARD slots remain empty, is that cable companies have continued their anticompetitive practices in designing the standards for it. These companies have locked satellite providers out of standards discussions, failed to incorporate state-of-the-art offerings (for example, two way communications), and have chosen not to educate people on CableCARD's value to the consumer. Cable companies, and this magazine, need to stop pretending that a lack of consumer interest in CableCARD has anything to do with a lack of interest in the theory of CableCARD.
The cable companies need to get out of the consumer-electronics design space so they can focus on aggregating and distributing content to viewers. If they want to do CE design, the FCC and consumers need to insist that they do so only with open standards that allow competition on a level field with others who haven't been given a government-sanctioned exclusive right-of-way. The promise of CableCARD is nothing short of fantastic, so let's not let it die out prematurely.
And what John S has said I believe is absolutely true! I know for a fact that our provider Cox Communications here in Phoenix could care less about the CableCard as when we first ordered it they tried to talk us out of it because they know they can't sell you PPV and other stuff with a one-way CableCard. As John has pointed out anybody that has CableCard capabilities in their TV and not using it is missing out out a fantastic picture (when the cable company is sending a correct and undistorted signal)from these cards. The clarity is far superior to a STB! Plus you control your TV with a CableCard installed and not mandated by a cable box as to how you can set up your channels etc. I for one want and use the CableCard as that is the reason I bought the TV with it in the first place, I just want the cable company to get off their *** and make it work right!
Gee, the Cable industry trying to protect their bottom line, who wudda thunk it. How many folks have encountered issues trying to get digital phone from their cable company if they currently have the wrong phone company? How many folks are truly happy with most any government mandated program, FCC or otherwise?
An attorney for the video industry refutes the articles contentions! Wow, there is an unbiased source. HAH!!!
I look at numerous Forums to see what problems are out there. I see a lot of folks posting problems with CableCard using FIOS. Should we now lump Verizon in with the big bad Cable operators who refuse to support this program?
Seems which part of the industry you are in determines who you want to put the blame on. Being on the cable side, not in management, I like to blame the government for a lame mandate, and the CE industry for producing a product that did not work out of the box.
We have done quite a few Tivo CableCard installs, and have seen far fewer problems than with TVs. Fluke? Dumb luck? Very doubtful. Maybe they just worked on it a little longer, or they corrected the issues already identified through all the grief with TVs, who knows?
As far as Cable not supporting the card, what I see and read is a lot of people with a whole lot of manhours tied up in trying to makes this mess work. Dedicated people exist in all the industries involved, as well as those who would rather take the easy way out. Blanket statements about the Cable industry are no more true than my saying all TV Mfgs don't care their set doesn't work.
More than enough blame to go around for everyone, but none of that solves any customer problems. So, we all look like schmucks and the consumer, as usual when D.C. is calling the shots, got screwed. Welcome to the world of government regulations. Who did not know this was going to be a debacle?
Who thinks that Cable or Telephone, or any business is not going to try to protect their interests? Of course, we are going to point out what you will lose with the card. Our business is to sell services, and Cable is not going to roll over and give up anything just as my local phone company who has been nailing me for years for Call Waiting, Call Forwarding, etc. isn't going to let Cable walk in and take their business. It's business folks not a government give away.
The problem is, as the article from Sound and Vision stated, CABLECARD SUCKED. Once the concept advanced beyond someone's head to the real world, it just sucked!
While I agree with every one's comments, the question I have is how can the CableCard be made to work? Earlier postings in this thread from Cableguy seem to indicate that he has been successful in 300+ installations.
If he can do it, what is it that is preventing others from doing the same and how can they be made to do what they should?
Aside from malfunctioning TVs and CableCards, the data in these forms seems to indicate that the primary problem with the cards is that they are more sensitive to substandard quality issues either at the consumers' receiving site and/or the cable provider. In my view, that is what makes the CableCards more difficult to manage.
While there are likely several solutions, more and better and technical training is one of them.
Say What? Always nice to see you chime in It's just easier to say there's always two sides to a story and leave it at that from my seat.
David~ The reason I have been able to get them working is because I understand the product and what makes it tick. When something isn't ticking you have to know what isn't working properly in order to fix it. In fairness to show I blame equally, there have been times when the account wasn't set up properly, or activasion commands weren't sent. Even though this meant the card wasn't working properly, it is easy to correct and get working usually the same day if the installer stays with the problem. The more significant problems are not getting them working but keeping them working. In 99% percent of the cases where a card was working and then stopped it has been my experience that there was something wrong with the TV that needed a software update or hardware replaced. The 1% remaining would be due to signal dropping off due to bad wiring or main line related issues that would have also affected other services besides the card.
" the primary problem with the cards is that they are more sensitive to substandard quality issues either at the consumers' receiving site and/or the cable provider. " ding ding ding....give that man a prize!!! One must ask "why is it that these problems are not across the board?" Of 13 major tv brands, we see significant problems with 4. So what is different in the other 9 that have little to no problems? It's the same cable company, and it's the same card so why the difference in functionality??? Each company has a certain operating range they are required to work within in order to be in compliance. They all write their own software, and nobody shares information because it's a big "trade secret" on what they do with their product. With that being said, we could install a cable box and not see any problems, yet see problems with the card. The box makers are the same people that make the cable card, so they have a pretty good idea of what they are doing (not that boxes aren't without sin). The difference is the boxes have different hardware and software that has been tested over and over to meet the specs. We don't know what's being put into the tv's because they are not obligated to tell us, and even if they could they wouldn't because of the trade secrets.......~sigh~ Anyway, the end statement is this, the consumer should do more research and make a purchase based on that instead of "OHHHH 62 inches of pure high definition for only $1200 at Walmart". It's almost a joke how anybody would go out and pay for 1 way TV knowing that 2 way is right around the corner, and there is also stuff being looked at that will make the card obsolete. You don't go buy a car without taking it for a test drive, and I know you can't test drive a tv, but you can do a little detective work instead of buying it and then finding out all the problems. If nothing else these forums, and all who contribute to them without malice, are helping educate future buyers. I don't harbor any ill will against the tv makers, any more then I do against my own cable company. My job is to fix things when they break, I don't buy them, I don't make them, I don't write the laws governing them. I just wish they would do a better job of making sure they work before people go buy them and then we have to deal with the consequences. Like SayWhat perfectly states " We have done quite a few Tivo CableCard installs, and have seen far fewer problems than with TVs. Fluke? Dumb luck? Very doubtful. Maybe they just worked on it a little longer, or they corrected the issues already identified through all the grief with TVs, who knows?" Tivo has done a great job with the product, and they've even got the modem access built in so customers can download guide information. What a great product. Yeah I know, and of course according to the morons, we don't like Tivo because it's direct competition for our dvr's blah blah blah.... lol ~beam me up scotty, there are no signs of intelligent life~
David~ You shouldn't have to know this much in depth detail, but caveat emptor does play a part in any purchase. I agree with you 100% so don't get me wrong, in your quest for understanding you now have a better grasp on what the issues are, and hopefully next time you'll take your past experiences with you to the check out counter. IMHO the product had a lot of great potential if everybody was on the same page, but sadly no 2 manufacturers are alike, and therein lies the problem. All cable boxes are made to the same specifications, and I'm not talking about features, just how they operate. If the same could be said about manufacturers I think we would only be having problems with features instead of operational issues. Fortunately with the newer technology that is slated for this year we can hope that everybody has learned from cable card 1.0, and going forward, problems will deminish. As I said in my other ranting, I don't harbor any ill will on anybody, we deal with what we're given and I know we all learned something from this first round of equipment. The more they make the more we learn. The more we learn the better things get. Believe me I'd rather have not had to learn what I did, but I am wiser because of it and in the end that does make it worth while.
and some blame all parties involved... caveat emptor
Then again the first airplane didn't fly right on the first attempt. Given time I feel they'll work out the kinks just as any other venture in life. Not withstanding that the your bottom line and my bottom line are on the same page
My problem is intermittent loss of signal on digital channels. I have a Sony KDF-E50A10 with a SA CC from Comcast. I'm on my second CC. SNR is 36 (FAT) and 28 (FDC). CP authorization is "Received." ECM count is 416; EMM count=0. I know from some of your past posts that an EMM count of 0 is bad, but what I don't understand is why I only have problems SOMETIMES given these stats. Can you shed any light on the subject?
Bugged~ As long as you are getting ECMs the EMM count of 0 is not the problem. Have you contacted Sony about the problems? There was a known issue with your particular model that facilitated Sony doing some hardware fixes to correct. There are a number of reasons why you could be seeing the problem intermittenly such as the afore mentioned known problem. It could also be a problem with the QAM signal in your area or in home wiring. Contact Sony first and then go from there. The SNR @36 is ideal indicating no signal to noise ratio problems. When the channels are missing is the SNR the same? Is the FDC locked when channels are missing?
Yes I have contacted Sony at least twice and they claim there are no problems associated with my particular serial number. They point to the cable card as the culprit. The last Sony tech support person I spoke to said unless I am getting an error message from the tv, they can't help me. And yes I have monitored the SNR when the signal drops out and the diagnostic screen reports no change in the level, as well as FDC being "locked."
Just got off the phone again with Sony and asked if there were any issues with the A10, such as the cc interface or the tuner and the tech said NO. I asked him to double check and he again said no. The only issue he mentioned was a firmware upgrade to address a power on/off issue (which was never a problem in my set). I had this specific firmware upgrade early last year. So it's back to square one.
I have a Sony KDF-E42A10 that I purchase in Sep. 1995 and had problems with the picture breaking up. I believe you have the same model but yours is 50 inches instead of 42. My fix required them to replace the b-block with a special part number T99860312.
I have Cablevision and they were using an NDS cable card and this problem may have been specific to that. Also my problems were constant. I haven't had any problems since they installed that part.
If you search back in the forum you will see my saga.
I do recall your saga. Glad you got it resolved. Since my problem is intermittent, I assumed it was not related to yours, but maybe that's not a safe assumption. In any case, Sony mentioned nothing to me about the b-block. Thanks.
What an eye opening mess! We have a new Mitsubishi LT-46231 which apparently will not work with a Scientific Atlanta Cable Card used by Charter Comunications. We have tried two sets and four cable cards. I have talked to Scientific Atlanta and Scott says that he knows of no problems. I talked to Bob at Charter corporate and he knows of no problems but would be willing to talk with technical suport from Mitsubishi. Mitsubishi customer service is almost worthless!!! They say there is no known problem! And if it exists it is someone else's problem. It is almost impossible to talk to anyone with any knowledge without spending hours on hold or waiting for a call back.
I have written to the Vice President of Mitsubishi digital Electronics last week and am waiting for a reply.
Bugged~ One last thing to ask since your diagnostic doesn't show any drop in the SNR we can assume there is nothing wrong with the cable signal that would be causing the problem. There is also a BER indicator on the same diagnostic and I would assume you're not seeing any BER numbers when the picture is out? The next time it drops out, do the reset option for the cable card via the menu and see if that restores the channels. James~ Since you have the SA card, could you go into the cable card menu and look at your sa cable card cp informaion screen and post the data contained there? If you don't have the cable card call them back to try again and after they are done installing it saying it should work, go into that screen and report the data back here. From what it sounds like it might not be provisioned properly, but the data will indicate if they did everything they were supposed to.
I have the cable card and will try to get to the screen you mention. I am not sure if I can since the card would not load, apparently. They were able to get to the first screen with the card ID stuff but not much else. The card went through loading analog channels then started loading digital channels which seemed to be in some kind of loop that went on for several hours until we stoped it. The screen displayed random numbers during this process. Mitsubishi authorized a local service tech to come out to try. He was unsucessfull also. More later tomorrow,. Thanks much for your message.
If memory holds correct I've seen that issue before. You don't happen to have something like satellite or some other video source being injected into your cable wires do you? Something that you should have them check is the forward data carrier at the input to your TV. I believe that loop of numbers is the same thing I saw and it took running a dedicated line to get them off of a line that was also injecting satellite into the same wire as the cable feed. Once I got it on it's own, the FDC and SNR were dead on (even though they were in specification before) and I haven't heard back from the customer since. If you can get into the diagnostic screens for the cable card and you can see the CP info screen, you might see the powerkey status saying "not ready waiting for time", if that's the case I would point to the FDC. Keep me posted
I do see a line labeled "Errors" on the diagnostic screen. I assume that is the BER you mentioned. This has always shown zero, even after the signal drops out. In every case, the signal returns after a short period, usually 5-10 seconds. ESPN HD seems especially prone to this.
Just for kicks, I monitored one of the local (OTA) high-def broadcasts using the antenna input on my Sony. The diagnostic screen reported a SNR in the 27-28 range and held steady. I did observe one instance of the signal dropping out briefly, even though there was no change in SNR level.
Bugged~ If you lost signal on the OTA broadcast, I'm not sure if that was due to a hiccup or the same problem your TV is having with the card.......hmmm? The only option I can think is to see if your cable provider is willing to give you a cable box to hook up and see how often those channels are dropping off. I'd also keep track of how often you are losing signal on cable and compare it to OTA.
Getting a cable box was going to be my next step. If I have no problems with the box, then either the cablecard or the TV is the problem.
However, I'm beginning to think the problem may be with the TV. Over in another forum a member directed me to a thread from a Sony A10 owner who had a problem similar to mine. Maybe this is the known issue that you mentioned earlier. Seems strange that Sony is not aware of this.
This is a question for cableguy regarding a LG 50PC1DR Plasma TV using Charter Cable and a Motorola CC.
It was purchased from Best Buy on 08/15/06. Best Buy tells me the problem is a "compatibility issue" between the TV and the Cable Card, but has never provided me with any documentation from LG, or anywhere else, for that fact. They ignore the issue that the TV operated correctly for the first 6 weeks of ownership.
Now, the problem description...
I am having problems with Charter Digital Cable Channels 104-107, 210, 303-306. Any of these channels, once tuned, will play for 6.5 minutes, lose signal for approximately 30 seconds, then automatically re-tune for another 6.5 minutes before losing signal again for another 30 seconds. This cycle repeats as long as one of these channels are selected. All other channels, including the Hi-Def channels, play correctly.
Comments:
- This problem arose after approximately one month/six weeks after installation. Before that, these channels played normally, with no signal drops. - Charter Communications has done extensive testing to ensure that it isn't a cable problem (please see the attached email information from Charter at the end of this text). In addition, there are two Charter Cable-supplied receivers installed at the same location on other TV's, and these units do not exhibit any channels with the problems listed above . - If the TV is tuned to one of these channels and you attempt to watch a recorded show on the DVR, the recording will play a maximum of 6.5 minutes before stopping and exiting the DVR menu, forcing you to start the recording again from the beginning. If the TV is tuned to any other channel than the above nine channels, the DVR plays perfectly. - To get any of the nine channels to play, you can "force" reception by going to the TV Guide option after selecting one of the nine channels. The channel will begin playing on the TV guide menu after 2-3 seconds, at which time you can exit the TV Guide screen and watch the channel for up to 6.5 minutes before it loses signal, as described above. - Once the signal has been lost, if you attempt to enter the TV Guide function too quickly (within approximately 10 seconds), you get a message on the screen saying "TV Guide On-Screen Is Not Initialized Yet". After that time, the TV Guide will display correctly. - Charter Communications is using a Motorola Cable Card (Version 04.21) in this television, which is the second card to be installed. The first card had the same issues, and Charter replaced it to ensure it wasn't a bad card. - All channels with this problem are sent via Charter Cable on its EIA Channel 88, Center Frequency 609.00 - Three service calls have been placed on this issue, and a service tech was on-site 12/19/06, 1/16/07 and 1/19/07, with no resolution of this problem, other than suggesting that I contact LG directly or replace the Cable Card with a desk-top receiver.
All of the above symptoms can be duplicated at any time with predictable results as described above.
Here is Charter Communications testing information, as emailed to me on 1/11/2007.
-------------------------------------------------
From: Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 5:51 PM To:
Today, we used the Sunrise Telecom AT2500RQv Spectrum/QAM Analyzer that was last calibrated on 9-13-06 to run two QAM Analysis test.
First we ran a QAM Impairment Analysis test that tests MER (Modulation error ratio), ENM (Estimated noise margin), EVM (Error vector magnitude), I/Q Gain differential, I/O Phase differential, Phase Noise, System Noise ratio, Carrier offset, Symbol rate error, Carrier/Interference ratio, Compression, Frequency Response, Echo margin, and Hum. All test ran at 609 MHZ (64 QAM) had passing results.
Second, we ran the Statistical Graph test for a period of 15 minutes that showed an average of 36.1 MER, 3.1E-10 BER (Pre-Fec) and 0 BER (Post-Fec).
John~ I work in a scientific atlanta system so I'm generally not much help in motorola systems. However I would like to point out that LG claims they are not having problems in motorola systems and we do see problems with LG in our system so I'm not sure what to think about the LG product at this point. From what you describe it sounds like the TV and the card are losing touch with each other fairly quickly. The QAM analyzer information clearly indicates there is nothing wrong with the signal, so that leaves the actual card and the TV. Keep on LG about finding out what is wrong, they claim no problems with motorola-make them prove it
James~ you are missing the EMM count from your stats, however the "waiting for CP authorization" indicates the cable company has not provisioned the card properly, or there is a problem getting the card to recognize the hit was sent. Have them check your foward data carrier at the RF input. Anything less then -10 dB needs corrected, and not just by amping the signal.
I thought I posted but it doesn't seem to be here. the EMM count was 0. Since then I called Charter corporate and got the info that there is apparently a firmware fix that may fix my problem. It is 2.3.149 p2. We shall see how this progresses. No one has contacted me yet to correct the problem. Apparently there is another company that monitors these fixes.
2.3.149 p2 is the latest version of firmware for the card, hopefully that will fix the problem for you, but I would caution if there are signal related problems or they are not sending the right hit commands it still might not work. Please keep us posted, and thanks for the follow up
Below is the response I sent Consumer Reports, after they said they had heard of no cable card compatibility issues. In the response, you can also see that I have surrendered, and why.
What a sorry state of affairs for a country like the USA. Its what I would expect in a 3rd world environment.
Now, the email text.........
I would suggest that you "Google" search on "Cable Card Problems and see what you get. Believe me, these problems are widespread.
In my case, I have given up on resolving the issue and gone to a set-top box. After over 2 months of being the middle-man in a finger pointing contest, I have surrendered. I intended the TV to be a entertainment device, not a heart attack instigator. I really like the television and the quality of the picture, but I feel as if I was sold a Yugo at a BMW price...
Now, just in case you are going to suggest that I continue pushing this issue, please know that I have spoken to the cable company, Best Buy service and 2 other authorized service centers for LG, and they all sing the same tune...lots and lots of compatibility issues! In addition, there is another Catch-22. LG denies that they know of any compatibility issues (see the text below that I copied from an email from LG support), so they say call a service center for repair. The service center will not send anyone out without LG prior approval, because LG won't pay them for the call if the TV isn't actually broken or if the technician can't find the problem cause. So, they want prior approval from LG before coming out, which they dump in my (read---the customer's) lap. Good luck on attempting to get that from LG, as they say call the repair center back. As you can see, another endless loop.
Here's the text from the email from LG........................
Dear John,
Thank you for inquiring of LG Electronics.
We regret the trouble you have been experiencing with this television. We have been unaware of any compatibility issues between plasma televisions and CableCARDS.
For further assistance, you will need to contact a service center near you. Please call 1-800-243-0000, for assistance. There, an agent will be able to provide you with an Authorized LG Service Center in your area.
Please have your model and serial number available along with your zip code when you call. If you have a customer service issue, please let the agent know and they will set up a customer service file for you. If your unit is under the factory warranty, your purchase receipt will validate the warranty.
Business hours are 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Please feel free to contact us if you have any additional questions or concerns. Thank you again for contacting LG Electronics.
Neil E-mail Administrator Customer Interactive Center LGEAI
End of email........................................................................... ......................................................
In closing, if I knew then what I know now, I would have simply purchased a monitior with no tuner and connected it to the same set-top box I am currently using and saved a couple of thousand dollars. And, it isn't like I didn't research this topic before buying. It is a HUGE issue that none of the manufacturers nor the cable companies want to discuss...
Why not pose the cable card issue question in your next issue and see what response you get?
I think it's hillarious that you would get that kind of feedback from them, but I also think it's a shame that they pretend there are no problems. You and anybody else that has had problems can write testimonials about the loops and hoops you have to jump through to get a straight answer. Again, showing I'm not biased, I know it has been a problem accross the board for all parties involved, consumers take the brunt of it. I really believe that these companies are more worried about their reputation and bad press if word were to get out that their product is faulty, which is already happening in forums like this across the net anyway, so what do they have to lose?? Regardless of who is to blame, the bottom line is the consumer takes the brunt of it.
I think it's even funnier that Consumer Reports knows nothing about problems with cable cards. Makes you wonder how reliable they are with their reports when they don't even know what's going on with them. I'd hate to think how many of my total post are unique to individual problems, but I'd wager at least half of them are. No problems? Sure is an awful lot of discussions about "nothing" in this and many other forums. Keep the fight going. You might even help me by getting through to the right people. Congressman, FCC whomever it takes, this issue should not be brushed off with normalcy.
Thanks for the posting, nice follow-up, sad but nice. We all know better then that
Thanks for all the help you have given. Below is the response I sent LG. Can you guess what the reply will probably be like?
I'll let you know. Again, thanks a bunch!!!!!
Email test follows........................
Neil,
As instructed, I contacted a service center (your case # C-07011996143).
The technician there refused to come out without prior authorization from LG. He stated that there are all kinds of cable card compatibility issues and that LG is completely aware of the problems. He also told me that it was up to me to get prior authorization, not him.
I got the same response from Best Buy service, where I purchased the TV from last August.
Needless to say, I am more than a little disappointed in LG and this television. I have been all over your web-site and cannot find a single case where cable card compatibility issues are addressed, yet every service center I have contacted (that would be 3, including Best Buy) are completely aware of what is happening.
If I had known that your product was incompatible with Charter Communications Cable system, I would never have purchased it. I feel like I purchased a Yugo at a BMW price. Just how valuable is a built-in DVR if I have no choice other than to watch what I am recording? What is the value of a built-in tuner if I can't connect it to digital cable?
The shame here is that the TV is a really nice unit, with excellent features and a high quality display. In fact, it is my opinion that it is the best and most detailed display of any 50 inch plasmas, and believe me, I have looked at just about all of them.
However, I am afraid that this has left an awfully bad taste in my mouth, and I seriously doubt that I will ever consider another LG product in the future, unless there simply isn't any competition. Please excuse my negativity, but someone there needs to know how I feel about this TV and LG as a whole.
Please feel free to forward this message to anyone and everyone that might be interested in reading it. Someone there needs to pay attention and get this issue resolved!
John~ I can only begin to imagine how they will spin this. I'm sure it will include how bad a job the cable companies have handled this product, even though I can attest to the lack of problems with other products. Anybody with a Sony that has had their interface replaced can back me up that there are no problems after the hardware is replaced. The Sony I have in my personal house has been working for over 2 years now with no problems. My next door neighbor bought an LG with the built in DVR and liked the picture quality I got without a cable box, so he bought into the card as well. He doesn't go 24 hours without having some problem, and he is actually pretty impressed by the amount of BS he is feed from them about his problems. If there is any update I hear about in regards to LG I will post it here. Apparently they are not in a position to post it on their website. Your next step of action would seem you need to take it to the consumer electronics association. They're a better watchdog then consumer reports, and hopefully you can get a better answer from them then you are from LG. Forward the emails and any other documentation you may have from the service companies you've been dealing with. It's long over due for somebody to put their foot down and stop the madness. Alwys nice to get feedback from people like you in this forum, hopefully somebody else can learn from it. Hang tough
No one has come forward to install the firm ware yet. I am going to have to keep on the various parties, Mitsubishi, Charter, and SA I guess. I will pass on the suggestion you made about the forward data carrier when I hear from them next. I will keep you posted. Thanks.
I have a Samsung LN-S4696d and using Scientific Atlanta cablecard with Cablevision. It basically works fine for all analague and digital and HD channels with one weird exception. When I use the channel button to surf up the channels, when I get to channels 46 and 47 they won't come in. 44 comes in, 45 comes in, 46 and 47 won't, 48 and on up are fine. When I then come back and try 46 and 47 they always come in. Then, much later in the day when I turn on the set again, the same thing happens. I have reset the cablecard using the remote and the cablecard menu to reset the cablecard as well as reorganize the channels. The cablecard information show CP is authorized, and ECM is good and EMM also is a good number. The clock shows the correct time and date and is set to automatic. Samsung customer service no help. Cablevision has tried several cards on several visits and something strange always happens in terms of either a missing channel or channels that are fine but after 9 days are lost and regained.
Update on my saga with my Sony KDF-E50A10 and the SA cablecard with Comcast. I am now back to believing the problem lies with the cablecard and/or Comcast. Today I lost ESPN HD as I have numerous times over the past several weeks. Again, SNR was fine (37) when this happened. However, this time the signal did not return. Now whenever I attempt to tune to ESPN HD, I get the dreaded "Not Authorized" message. No amount of persuasion will get that channel back. I tried a cablecard reset with no luck.
I guess I'm going to have to succumb and order the STB. I think I've pretty much exhausted my options, don't you think?
Maybe you can help me. I've been working with Comcast (very recently transitioned from Adelphia) for 3 weeks now trying to get my S.A cards working in my TiVo S3. The problem is always the same. I get EMMs/ECMs without issue, but I NEVER get "CP Auth Received". Do you have any ideas?
My cards both have the latest firmware, and have been swapped out a couple of times. I've had the cards removed and re-added to my account (which should trigger a cold-init). The cards are entered as the first two items in my account (above the STBs). For the life of me, I just can't get the "CP Auth Received". I've had 4 truck rolls, and about 5 different CableCARDs. In the end, I just know its a headend problem. Perhaps due to the very recent Adephia->Comcast transition.
w.t. brown~ the only thing I've heard about samsung's is they've been swapping out tuner boards on certain models, and don't have any clear idea on what they are and why they are doing it.
Bugged~ and no error messages displayed? When you go to ESPN HD and then go into the CP information screen what does the EID display?
Michael~ Did you install them and have them hit 1 at a time or did you install them both at the same time and have them hit as such? They need to be installed and hit 1 at a time, verified correct number of emm's and cp authorization recieved, before moving on to card #2.
Yup. We did them one at a time per the instructions. We even got the EMMs up to 160, but still never got "CP Auth Received". Baffling, isn't it? Can you tell me, what system is the "CP Auth Received" tied to on the back end? Does it compare CableCARD ID (or serial number) against an inventory system? Or is everything tied to billing?
Below is a response I received today from Comsumer Reports...I guess they are too busy performing "extreme child car-seat testing" to bone up on anything else, or maybe we are simply on two separate planets. I wonder if they have heard about Pluto's reclassification yet...
Email text follows............
John
Our expert says that no, we have not heard of this problem. It is certainly out of the ordinary.
The CableCard feature is complicated enough that it could play a role. Your TV has a built-in DVR which is another complicating factor. Maybe the TV "thinks" it was programmed to wake up & begin recording. Or possibly, there is a loose solder connection or wire, somewhere in the circuitry. You might try to evoke or block the strange behavior by tapping somewhere on the unit, or cooling it down in temperature. An experienced TV repairman would know about these intermittent "dogs".
Another possibility is a firmware glitch. Contact LG's technical support and see if there has been a firmware update. Be sure to write down the current version in the TV - there should be a diagnostics selection in the menu which will display this.
All in all you should not have to live with it. If you are unable to pinpoint the problem take it in to an authorized service center.
Michael~ cp authorization is sent during the hit command, depending on what billing system they are using. If the cp screen says waiting for cp authorization and you are getting emm's, it sounds like the system is communicating with your card, but it isn't getting the right commands. Ask them to revoke and remarry the card, send the hit and refresh or re-hit command to see if that corrects the lack of cp authorization.
John~ I like how they tell you in closing to take it to an authorized service center to assist in pinpointing the problem. You'd be better off asking LG to bring one of their tv's to your house and have them show you there are no problems with their product. If nothing else maybe they can "pinpoint" what the problem is in your home lol. Good luck with that part of it!
. Ulitmately it is up to you to decide when you've had enough, and nobody can tell you when that is. Giving them a deadline comes with a catch, make sure you get an email contact at LG who can make these decisions and keep all transactions on file to show what was said on what dates in case things don't go as agreed to. It's one thing to verbally commit, and another to put it in writing.
