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Trader Unregistered guest | I've been doing a lot of research on tvs and home theatre systems in the last few months. Here are my findings and let me know if you have any suggestions and/or answers to some things I'm still trying to find out. I think I can say for not just myself, but for a few people, that they are looking for the whole package: tv, stand, speakers, dvd, etc. I've seen a lot of threads addressing one issue or another, but I think having answers to a complete setup would be interesting and informative. I, and I'm sure others as well, are looking for something that will work awesome all together. TV: Samsung HL-R6178W: I went to Tweeter and took a look at it since I've been reading up on it since March and it finally came out. I compared it to the 67 series, other manufacturers, and the Sony Qualia, and the picture is amazing. I even turned caption on, and noticed the text was a lot more crisp than the 67 and Qualia. What's amazing is that on the 6178, they are using diamond shaped overlapping pixels that make it virtually impossible to see up close. I don't have an extremely large living room and will be sitting about 8 feet away, so I was worried about getting a 61 inch, but I think it will be really good with the new 6178 model. Even up close it looked good and didn't notice pixels. What do you guys think? Stand: TR61X2SB Samsung just came out with the TR61X2SB for it. I think I'm going to get this one instead of the older TR61X2 since the new one is adjustable. Any thoughts? Home Theatre System: Harmon Kardon CP35? I'm looking for one under $2,000, but that has really good VIDEO and AUDIO quality that will work best with the types of inputs and outputs and 6178 has. I'm a music guru, so I'd like to get something really crisp and loud as well. I wouldn't mind going a little over $2k to get it though. I've looked at the HK CP35, Pioneer HTZ-940DV, Kenwood HTB-s715DV, some of the Sony Dream Systems (don't want wireless though since I know I will lose quality), and others. I looked at the BOSE, but it seemed like you wouldn't get as good of sound and video quality as others and don't need the hard drive they provide to store songs. Any suggestions on the CP35 and others that are around the same price and have awesome video and audio quality? I want to make sure I get something that will use the latest technology that I can get for about that price, but I'm not sure on HDMI input/outputs, etc. Where to get it? I'm looking at Vanns since the TV in only $4,000 with no tax and shipping included. Have you heard any good/bad feedback about Vanns? I'd like to go the cheaper route, but am worried I'll get it, something may be damaged, won't be able to return it, and be stuck with a problem. Most retailers are selling it for $4,500+tax right now. Remaining questions and concerns: - I'm going to be gaming a lot with Xbox and am looking to eventually get PS 3 when it comes out. Since there are talks about PS 3 being in 1080P, will I be able to get that resolution on the 6178? Will it just upscale to 1080p automatically? I'm not sure if this is where the HDMI 1080p input comes in where the tv doesn't have? Also, do you think it will have any lag? I'd hate to get it and not be able to play it because there is bad lag. Please let me know your thoughts. - I have Comcast and will look into getting On Demand and want HDTV. Since the signals coming from there are 720p or 1080i (I think you can set these yourself?), will the tv upscale it to 1080p automatically? If so, then would I set it to 1080i to get the best picture instead of 720p? I guess I still don't know what the HDMI 1080p input would be used for and why a lot of people are making it a big deal that the 6178 doesn't have HDMI 1080p inputs? There have also been some talks about the 6178 not having 5.1 HDMI sound, but with the theatre system, I would assume you would get around that? With a tv like this, I would think most people would want to get a good home theatre system as well. - Are cables that come with the system and tv sufficient, or would you get that much of a difference and get other cables? |
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Bronze Member Username: JimkwColumbus, Ohio USA Post Number: 55 Registered: Jun-05 | Just read your post and can by no means answer your questions, but I was wondering why you did not look at the Pioneer Elite 56TX receiver? I have the 52TX and my nephew has the 56TX and we are both quite happy with them. What kind of speakers are you using? I have KEF's and really like them. They are more than 10 years old now and I just upgraded the receiver last Xmas. I stay away from Bose because I think they are over priced because of the name. As soon as I finally get a new TV I will also upgrade the Sony DVD player that I have had for about four years now. I can not remember what kind of speakers my nephew has, but they are big floor speakers as opposed to the bookshelves I use. He has a Loewe TV, but you can no longer buy them in the USA. It's an absoloutely fantastic picture. Good post I enjoyed reading about a complete system instead of just TV's. |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 179 Registered: May-05 | The Samsung HL-R6178 is an excellent choice. Wish I had the bucks. Just make sure the stand supports the entire surface of the set. Harmon Kardon is way over my head. I bought a $300 Onkyo 602B, which is a 7:1 at 80 watts per channel with a .07 total harmonic distortion rating. I'm driving Cerwin Vega floor speakers with 12's and 15's for a deep full rich sound. I'm using an optical connection straight from my Samsung SIR TS360 Direct TV HD/Terrestrial receiver. Vanns is a great place to purchase from. You can inspect the set upon arrival and refuse delivery if it's not perfect in every way. A credit card purchase will protect you in several ways. Some will extend the manufacturers warranty an extra year. The savings is well worth the minimal risk of a possible return delay. After 30 days most every brick and morter retailer will refer you to the Samsung factory warranty folks anyway. I've dealt with them and they are exceptional. You will get the most from your existing game box by using component (Pr, Pb, Y) cables and playing games that utilize progressive scan, either by default or selected from the menu. You will have exactly the right set for a future PS3 purchase. You are correct that the HDMI port along with DVI and component connections will not support a 1080P signal format in Samsung sets. The truth is that the connection itself has no such limitation, but Samsung has decided not to process 1080P signal from these inputs. The ATSC tuner within the set will accept off-air broadcasts at 1080P and display them should any broadcasting network do such a thing. This is not likely in the near future. The fact of the matter is that a 1080I signal has all the lines of resolution that a 1080P generated signal would have. It's just broadcasted and received as an "interlaced" scan method signal rather than a "progressive" scan method signal. The new Samsung 1080P sets, by design, can only display in their native 1080P format no matter what the input signal format is. Any input signal will be scaled to the sets 1080P display format, period. This means that a 1080I signal will be scanned on the screen progressively in all the glorious detail of any 1080P source signal. I'm sure that the PS3 will have the option of selecting the 1080I format as an output choice. Your set will convert the scanning method to progressive and nothing will be lost. Your Comcast box must be set to output 1080I and the set will convert the scanning method with that signal too. I'm not sold on the DVI/HDMI connection method. I have experienced several pitfalls myself and others have concurred. These include, but are not limited to digital freeze, picture fragmentation, intermitant blackout, darkening, and distorted analog standard definition, especially with cable boxes. I prefer component (Pr, Pb, Y) cables myself except for my upconverting DVD player, which is my only HDMI connection. I found excellent double insulated gold connector Phillips component cables at Target for half the price of Monster. I'm sure there are other good economical cables out there too. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1489 Registered: Sep-04 | I'm sure that the PS3 will have the option of selecting the 1080I format as an output choice. Your set will convert the scanning method to progressive and nothing will be lost. If the native format of PS3 and other Blu-ray devices is 1080p it seems it would be possible for something to be lost at the source such as speed. As I understand it in order to have 60 fps on a 1080p device utilizing a 1080i input the input must be "broadcast" at 120 fps. True? I dunno. I'm having a hard time understanding why Samsung chose not to process 1080p input on the HDMI inputs. I just ordered a 6178 from Sound Advice and am having second thoughts. 1080p is pretty much brand new and "brand new" technology can be scary. For example I sure am glad I didn't purchase a Samsung HLN or HLM model when I had the chance. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1490 Registered: Sep-04 | Ok I'm a bit confused. I just got off the phone with a Samsung "Engineer" and he made it clear that the 6178 DOES support 1080p on its HDMI inputs. At first he wasn't sure, but I had him check with a superior TWICE to verify that this was true. Before I attempt to get this in writing could someone post a link or explain where they came upon the information that Samsung's 1080p DLP's don't support 1080p on the HDMI inputs? My salesman thought I was nuts when I suggested that they didn't. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1491 Registered: Sep-04 | I called Samsung one more time to ask this same question again. I talked to a different engineer(one who spoke better English this time) and again was told that the HDMI inputs on the 6178 DO accept 1080p signals and that when Blu-ray becomes available its 1080p HDMI output WILL be accepted without ANY upconversion necessary. Again I had this guy doublecheck and although he didn't have access to e-mail and couldn't send me anything in writing he could definitely assure me that 1080p will work just fine on the 6178's HDMI inputs and in fact those were the only inputs that accepted 1080p. Where did you guys get this "1080i only" info? It says in Samsung's FAQ section that the only difference between the xx68 and xx78 DLP's is cosmetics(xx68 has the "floating screen"). Is it possible its the xx68 series that only supports 1080i? That would explain the apparent four or five hundred dollar price difference between the 6168 and 6178 models(6168=$4099 at Brandsmart, 6178=$4499 at Sound Advice/Tweeter) I mean come on, it really doesn't make sense for Samsung not to support Blu-ray on at least some of their models when they are part of the Blu-ray Disc Association(BDA) responsible for the development of this new technology: http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#1.3 http://www.bluraydisc.com/ I take delivery on this bad-boy in two days and really don't want to wait any longer to make the HDTV plunge. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 247 Registered: May-05 | On the Samsung website, just to the left of the model HL-R6178 is a "Download Spec Sheet" link. Here is the direct link to that pdf file. Just above the Specifications are two paragraphs. Paragraph 2 clearly states, "Currently, HDMI, DVI, and Component inputs can only accept up to 1080I signals. All 1080I signals are converted to 1080P. Off-Air 1080P signals are displayed in their broadcast format." Only the ATSC tuner can accept a 1080P off-air signal, period. You will need to set your blu-ray to 1080I and let your set convert it to 1080P. Nothing lost! |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1492 Registered: Sep-04 | After doing a bit more research I came across this .pdf http://www.bluraydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/bdj_gem_application_definition _050307-12959.pdf located at the second link in the previous post. If you scroll down through all the technical mumbo jumbo you'll notice something interesting in section 4.3 - Video Streams. Apparently the maximum framerate supported by Blu-ray in 1080p is about 25 fps whereas 1080i supports 60. It seems to me it doesn't really matter whether Samsung's 1080p DLP's support 1080p as long as it does 1080i. If I understand how upconverting from an interlaced picture(XXXXi) to a progressive one(XXXXp) works, you get half the framerate of the interlaced signal in the progressive display. In other words upconverting a 1080i signal at 60 fps to 1080p would result in a 30 fps picture or possibly a 60 fps picture with the same image refreshed twice to reduce flicker. A 1080i signal processed by a 1080p display might actually look better at 30 fps than a 1080p signal at 25 fps. Am I right? This is all new stuff to me. If anyone more knowledgable could comment on these findings it'd be appreciated. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 249 Registered: May-05 | I believe your 1080P set will display 1080 lines at 60 fps or 60hzs. Did you see my post above your last one? |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1493 Registered: Sep-04 | Yeah I just saw it. Ahhh.... the fine print. Thanks. I believe I'll give Samsung another call. Is it possible things have changed since that pdf was released? I mean apparently there are now LCD's available with DVI inputs capable of accepting 1080p. I don't think it really matters, but I sure don't like being fed misinformation from a manufacturer even if it probably is a common occurence. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 253 Registered: May-05 | Actually, I doubt if anything has changed. I think those people you have been talking to are getting the ATSC tuner capability confused with the other inputs. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1494 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmmm.... I noticed when going through the PC section of 6178's manual that for 1920x1080 resolution a refresh rate of 60Hz is the only one supported. If indeed this display's refresh rate is limited to 60 fps then that would explain why Samsung has 1080i only on the HDMI inputs. It may not be possible for the thing to display something at 50 Hz. What do you think? -Fishy note: I guess the 30 Hz progressive frame upconverted from Bluy-ray(1080i @ 60 Hz) is displayed twice in order to get 60 fps. Is this what is referred to as "line doubling"? |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1495 Registered: Sep-04 | Ok, on the third try with Samsung I got in touch with a tech who said, yes, the HDMI inputs only accept 1080i, but the Blu-ray stuff should look every bit as good at 1080i as they would at 1080p. Well with that solved I guess I'll put together my stand and get ready for this monster. BTW I purchased the same stand that Trader was asking about in the first post(TR61X2SB). Not only is it expndable to fit the 6778, but it also has black legs as well as silver ones which I think should be much more attractive. I'll post back on how the thing looks. Thanks for the help FYI. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1496 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh and Trader, I like my HK stuff. Check out my profile. I'd just have to say that I think Harmon Kardon's older equipment was a bit better. My PA2200 amp(100x2) blows away the AVR525's front channels(85x2 in stereo mode). Its much punchier and fuller sounding, a lot more than what an extra 15 watts per channel should dictate. Its not really that big a deal with home theater, but if you're into music like you said..... well there's a substantial difference between playing a CD while running the AVR525 as a preamp for the PA2200 and using the 525's internal amp to power my 602's. -Fishy |
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Trader Unregistered guest | Thanks guys...all this info has helped out a lot. Fishy, you might want to check this forum out as well...there are some really knowledgeable people in there like FYI and I've posted some things in there: I got this Gusdorf 57" stand from Circuit City. You can look at my 1080P DLP link to see what it looks like with the 6168 set. I have my center speaker on the bottom and 3 TiVos, iscan HD+, SDI RP82, and the OPPO player on the top shelf. I needed something that would hold my Center speaker and several components. I only paid around $175 when it was on sale, so it was worth it for that price. check this out Hope all this helps you as well...it's crazy the more I learn the more I have questions on the best setup. Thanks for all your inputs as well FYI. |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 16 Registered: Apr-05 | 1920x1080P on the VGA input looks excellent on my 6168. Too bad the HDMI won't accept 1080P. |
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Bronze Member Username: JimkwColumbus, Ohio USA Post Number: 66 Registered: Jun-05 | Fishy and Trader, you really should check out KEF sepeakers. Polk would probably be my 2nd choice. I would never buy Bose. What I like about them is that they sound excellent at lower volume whereas other speakers have to be played loud to get the sound out of them. KEF's sound good loud also. They are hard to find, but reasonable priced when you do find them. You will not find them at Best Buy or Circuit City though, that's for certain. Here is a link to their website: http://www.kef.com/ I bought mine in Colorado. I can not find them any where here in Ohio. I bought a pair of rear speakers recently (3 yars ago) on e-bay. |