Archive through May 15, 2005
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Bronze Member Username: ChrisinyorkPost Number: 16 Registered: Dec-04 | Hi everyone, I have looked at nearly every brand and every TV technology and I have decided that the Sony KDF-50WE655 LCD rear projection TV is by far the best and most reliable technology out there. That notwithstanding, I'd still like to hear from current OWNERS ONLY on their experience with this set, both pros and cons. I have read every review I can find and know that it's rumored to not have as good black levels as DLP (I think it's the same) and it does push red a little (which can be fixed with calibration). Thanks a lot! |
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Bronze Member Username: ChrisinyorkPost Number: 17 Registered: Dec-04 | Anyone??? |
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New member Username: CyfairslamHouston, Texas USA Post Number: 3 Registered: Dec-04 | I own the KDF-55WF655 for just a short while and have been very satisified with the set. I think the picture is great in all modes. I heard the concerns about the black levels but when I compared it to the DLP side by side, I did not see a great deal of difference. Pros: Picture is great Cons: Cannot get all my analog cable stations to appear. There must be a setting I cannot find. Since I watch mostly thru the cable company HD DVR, it is not a big issue to me. I also don't like the grey side bars in 4:3 mode for some stations. I wish Sony would have allowed to toggle to black if preferred. |
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New member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 1 Registered: Jan-05 | We have had our KDF-50WE655 for about two weeks. I spent about 30 minutes comparing the Sony to a new Samsung DLP. They were right next to each other at CC and showing the same HD stream. They pictures are very very close to each other. The Samsung showed a small amount of 'rainbow' color fringing. It was most noticable with white titles on a black background. The Sony would sometimes show an odd motion artifact on a sports program that is part of CircuitCity's demo loop. The Samsung did not show this. Possibly something in the 3:2 pulldown was getting messed up by a poorly edited source. I've yet to see this artifact with our set at home. We coudn't see a difference in black levels compared to DLP. Plasma or direct view CRT has better blacks, but then you are at $7000 or 34". The Sony has better built in sound. In the end we decided the Sony has a slightly BETTER picture than the DLP sets. It is very close though. Color is off on the Sony. There is a bit of red push, but the biggest error is that whites are too blue. Selecting Pro mode helps. I'm trying to learn how to calibrate the set. This is the only way to get the colors exactly dead on. Picture with our Comcast HD DVR is amazing. DVD movies look good to. It is hard to watch analog cable anymore. Now that I have the schematics, I can see that there is no point in using the KDF's HDMI input. The set converts the HDMI back to analog component video. |
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New member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 2 Registered: Jan-05 | Also -- The electronics in the KDF-42WE655 and KDF-50WE655 are identical. The only difference is the picture size. The larger 55 and 60 inch Sony LCD sets are similar but not identical. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChrisinyorkPost Number: 22 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks Andrew... I wonder why it converts it back to analog component video. Weird. I have decided on buying this set. Now I just need to design and build a new custom entertainment center to fit it. Here's what I'm thinking about...  |
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New member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 4 Registered: Jan-05 | That looks great! Looks like you have left enough room for ventilation. The owners manual says to leave 4 inches open behind the set. The fan is in the center near the bottom. The remote sensor is in the uppper right on the front. There are channel and volume buttons on the right hand side at the top. I've been studying the schematic. It looks like Sony didn't have the time to redo the digital part of the set to directly work with the HDMI signal. Instead they convert the HDMI back to analog componenet video and feed it into the same analog switch that is used for the other inputs on the back of the set. I think they just wanted to get the feature into the set so it would be compatible with HDMI cable boxes and DVD players. |
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Timothy Jones Unregistered guest | I've had the set for a few months now and love it. The black levels are fine, you won't notice that they aren't as black as a CRT unless you're really thinking about it. DVD's in progressive scan look great, some cable channels look really good, some so-so (on RCN). Haven't used the HDMI yet, so if anyone has, let us know how it is. Needless to say, High-Def channels are unbelievable. To Andrew: make sure you calibrate in one of the picture modes, and save the settings. I used Digital Video Essentials and the picture looks way better than factory settings in both DVD and cable. I know it's not a professional calibration, but $20 for the DVD is a lot better than $400 for someone to come out. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChrisinyorkPost Number: 23 Registered: Dec-04 | Timothy, After you used DVE, were the reds not so overpowering? That's the one thing I've read that you really need a professional calibration to fix. Chris |
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New member Username: CyfairslamHouston, Texas USA Post Number: 5 Registered: Dec-04 | I am happy with the picture on my set. However, I also know I am not a person who has the ability to see slight differences in color or contrast. Tim, before I go out and buy a Digital Video Essentials DVD, I would like to know how it works. Do you just change the normal video settings accessed by the remote(brightness, contrast etc) or are there some hidden factory only type settings? How do you know if you have achieved the correct settings? Is there still personal preference or judgement involved. |
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New member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 5 Registered: Jan-05 | Cyfairslam, You can do some adjusting with the user settings. Just setting Pro mode gets the set much closer to correct. On the KDF-xxWE655 sets you need to access the service menu settings to get the best possible adjustments. The service menu is not easy to use and it is possible to really screw up your set. The Samsung DLP sets have more user adjustments. So do some of the high up Sony sets. With the user settings you can do some of the adjusments by eye and get a better looking picture. After all it is your eyes that are looking at the picture. DVE includes a set of filters that will help. You can also try the THX optimizer that is on several DVDs including Star Wars. To get the set as close as possible to 'correct' color and greyscale calibration you need a way to get test paterns on all inputs, know how to use the service menu and have access to a spectroradiometer . A good spectroradiometer can cost $20,000. http://www.photoresearch.com/current/pr650rgb.asp I've used a PR-650 to calibrate computer displays. There are less expensive alternatives, but all the ones I know about cost more than our sets! You can also pay someone to come out and calibrate your set. http://www.imagingscience.com/isf_search.cfm I plan to go an inbetween route. I have a luminance meter: http://www.mx-electronic.com/english/presentation.htm If I can get the set to turn on only one LCD panel at a time, I should be able to get a decent calibration. There are several very long threads on calibration at avsforum. Look for the GW III tweaks and GWIV owners threads. |
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Bronze Member Username: ChrisinyorkPost Number: 25 Registered: Dec-04 | Has anyone else seen some weird affects on this TV in scenes with large areas of the same color? I was watching coverage of the Rose Bowl Parade a while ago and there was a shot of the hosts with the bright red backdrop. The backdrop was not moving, but it looked like the pixels were moving around, alomost looking like water. It was weird. Anyone else notice this or may know what causes it? Thanks. Chris |
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New member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 6 Registered: Jan-05 | >>watching coverage of the Rose Bowl Parade a while ago and there was a shot of the hosts with the bright red backdrop. Didn't notice this on our set. We watched the KTLA coverage of Rose Parade on on DiscoveryHD. I had saved it on my DVR and watched it a few times. |
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New member Username: BuzzPost Number: 6 Registered: Jan-05 | Anybody know how to navigate the service menu once you bring it up? I have a KDF 42WE655 and the service menu does not seem very user friendly...I tried the arrow button, and nothing happened... |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 15 Registered: Jan-05 | >>Anybody know how to navigate the service menu once you bring it up? The service menu is not easy to use and it is possible to really screw up your set. These threads over at AVS forums are the best guides I've found. This thread covers the older GWIII sets: UMR does GWIII This threads discusses the differences between the GWIII and the current models. GWIV tweaks GWIV Owner Thread This one is worth a read too. |
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New member Username: BuzzPost Number: 8 Registered: Jan-05 | I just returned the TV because the black levels were so weak. If I could have found a way to improve the black level performance, the 42WE655 would have been close to being the perfect TV. I am looking at the Sony 42" ED plasma "KE-42M1" now... |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 17 Registered: Jan-05 | Buzz, Poor black levels are the weak spot in all of the current LCD RP sets. A few high end front projectors have a high speed iris in the light path. The iris cuts down the light levels in darker scenes. Helps with the black levels. The iris may show up in RP sets in a year or two. Right now, it is hard to beat CRT sets for black level. Have you looked at the KP-46WT520? The picture is not bad. Black levels are much better than the KDF sets. We didn't get one mostly because the set has a much smaller 'sweet spot' than the LCD sets. You have to be almost directly infront of the set. ED plasma sets are great for watching DVDs. Not so great for 4:3 TV. Plasma sets are subect to burn (image retention). If you watch lots of pillar boxed 4:3 TV you could end up with pillars burned into the display. This isn't covered by the warrentee. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 19 Registered: Jan-05 | Another option to the KE-42M1 is the KD-34XBR950. The 34 is too small for us (we have a 50") but the picture quality was amazing. |
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grfunk Unregistered guest | I've had the Sony 42WE655 for 3 months and I really don't know what people are talking about when they complain about the blacks. I work in TV. I know where blacks are set. If the original material has crushed blacks, you're not going to get them. I find that it all depends on the signal I'm watching if the blacks are OK. For the most part, the Sony does a great job with blacks. As far as reds go, I don't know what you're looking at as far as that goes either. I've run test signals using RF, Video, Component, and S-Video. It all looks good to me and I've been looking at test signals and all kinds of video for 30 years. Yes, reds are not as true on LCD but they are dang close and I don't see any "push" in the reds either. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 21 Registered: Jan-05 | Gfunk, For the most part I agree with you. All sets have their quirks and imperfections. Color vision varies quite a bit from one person to the next. In part it is just personal preference. If you look at a KD-34XBR950 side by side with a KDF-xxWE655, the direct view is capable of darker blacks and a little more dynamic range. |
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grfunk Unregistered guest | Yes, I know that everybody is different. That is why, when asked, I may recommend a TV but I always tell them to go look for themselves and buy the one they like, not the one I like. That's as far as looks go. Reliability is another thing. I know that blacks will be darker on a CRT but we are talking a very little difference. If it wasn't for what Samsung was doing to the SD signals, I might have kept the DLP. I saw a lot of them at CES last year. I really didn't expect to buy a LCD but SD will be around for awhile so you have to have something that looks good with everything. I would have compared a lot more RPTVs but my head was starting to hurt and football season had already started. |
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New member Username: GrandwegaPost Number: 1 Registered: Jan-05 | I have the 50we655. I have it connected directly to the Comcast digital cable feed. I have had to auto=program the channels frequently, as it seems to "forget" the programmed channels. I turn on the TV, and press channel up or down, and it only finds the channel it tuned when turned on. Any thoughts? It has happened about 10 times, with no pattern I can figure out. |
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New member Username: GrandwegaPost Number: 2 Registered: Jan-05 | I have the 50we655. I have it connected directly to the Comcast digital cable feed. I have had to auto=program the channels frequently, as it seems to "forget" the programmed channels. I turn on the TV, and press channel up or down, and it only finds the channel it tuned when turned on. Any thoughts? It has happened about 10 times, with no pattern I can figure out. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 22 Registered: Jan-05 | GW Owner, That is a known bug in the firmware of the early production sets. You need to call Sony for service. |
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New member Username: GrandwegaPost Number: 6 Registered: Jan-05 | Andrew, Thanks. Someone else told me it is a issue of the comcast feed and the internal tuner. I was thinking of just getting a hi def comcast box, which would eliminate the issue. However, can the firmware be fixed? I've called sony, but they don't know anything. What would sony do to it? |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 23 Registered: Jan-05 | They need to send a repair tech to your house. The tech will download a firmware update from a memory stick. This is a known issue but you may have a hard time finding someone who knows about it. you need to tell sony that your set is broken and needs waranty repair. Here is a link to a post about this in the AVS forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4539060&highlight=firmwa re+update#post4539060 |
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Unregistered guest | the seller in circuit city told me about the issues with the bulbs or lamps in this kind of televisions...if yes how long it takes this thing to get damage ... is he correct?? |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 26 Registered: Jan-05 | >>is he correct?? I don't know. What did he say? All of the RP LCD and DLP sets have a bulb that will eventually burn out. There was a production problem with the lamps in some Sony sets from last year, but that was fixed a long time ago. Bulb life on KDF-50WE655 is about 5000 hours with average use. ummm 5000 / 4 hours a day is 1250 hours or about 3.4 years. Maybe 1.5 years for heavy use. Less than a year if the set is always on. Replacment bulbs are about $200. The lamp is a user replacable item. But it costs TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS. Power surges and gliches can fry the bulb. Power failures will stop the fan from cooling the lamp. We have our set on a UPS. Some extended service contracts cover bulb replacement. Others do not. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 27 Registered: Jan-05 | I made a typo: 5000 hours / 4 hours a day = 1250 DAYS / 365 = 3.4 years. |
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New member Username: Hendrix01Post Number: 1 Registered: Jan-05 | thanks for the info sou u recommend me to buy this TV SOny KDF50"? |
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SilentMan Unregistered guest | I bought the Sony KDF-60WF655 last saturday and was delivered to my home yesterday, sunday, in time for the Super Bore  The TV is hooked up to a DirecTV satellite receiver. Picture is awesome when playing a dvd movie, but NOT so when displaying regular SD channels or a VHS movie. Is there a way to adjust the picture quality to get a sharp image of the sd channels? TIA |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 28 Registered: Jan-05 | VHS has about 230 lines of resolution at best. With most rental tapes you are lucky to get 200. SD TV is 480 lines at best. Analog SD TV is usually full of noise. Blow that up to 60" and its going to look terrible compared to High Def. You can try adjusting settings in the User Menus (Mild mode for example) but the real solution is to stay away from low def sources. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Andrew, are you sure about the HDMI cable after having the TV for only 2 weeks, Sony could be accused of fraud if you are right, because they advertise that their HDMI for this set is "an uncompressed, all-digital audio/video interface between the TV and any HDMI-equipped audio/video component, such as a set-top box, DVD player, and A/V receiver. HDMI supports enhanced, or high-definition video" This connection HDMI is an "HDMI: with Analog Audio In ". Is it possible you are seeing the Analog Audio In connection that is with this HDMI? |
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J/A TR Unregistered guest | It seems as though that post is making some waves & will continue to, Sony has got some calls over it they may want to know who said it. That is saying that they (Sony) are lieing about thee uncompressed, all-digital audio/video interface. I own the set & called Sony and they said that the hdmi it is an uncompressed digital feed. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 29 Registered: Jan-05 | I'm sure. Anyone can order the service manual and schmatics direct from Sony. Sony Electronics Inc. World Repair Parts Center 8281 N.W. 107th Terrace Kansas City, MO 64153 USA (800) 488-7669 (USA Only) -or- (800) 345-7669 It is about $30 including postage. HDMI -> analog is shown in the block diagram but to be sure I doubled checked on the Schematic for the P board. The HDMI connector goes directly to the input side of a SiI9993 HDMI receiver. Silicon Image pulled the data sheet from their website, but you can still get the overview at http://www.siimage.com/docs/SiI-PB-9993.pdf The chip has a digital output. It also has analog outputs from an on-board 10-bit DAC. Sony is using Y, Pr, Pb analog component outputs. It is clearly labled on the schematic. The analog component signal goes to the CXA 2209Q video switch on the A board. At this point the signal goes through the same path as any other component video. It is eventually converted back to digital on the B board. This is true for ALL the GWIV sets, not just the 50WE655. I suspect Sony uses the same 'P' board for most or all of their HDMI sets. The quote from Sony is true. HDMI is an all digital path from an HDMI-equipped component to your TV. What Sony doesn't tell you is what happens once that signal is inside the TV. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | If it gets converted back to an all digital uncompressed signal that just sounds like the path they chosen to do so, I take it when you say component you're talking hd component like the one that displays 1880i, because there is a standard component connection as well as I'm sure you know. You didn't say in your earlier post that it gets converted back to digital as you did here. Will a 1080i DVD player up convert my dvd signal to on this TV using the HDMI? My DVD only up converts to 1080i through hdmi. |
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Anonymous | Yes it will, I have tried and tested this on my DVPNS975 & the listed 50" Sony model. For some odd reason the 1080i image looks dim as opposed to 720p & 480p. Either way I'm not impressed with the TV set and will be going back to DLP, blacks aren't that great on this set. |
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Bronze Member Username: BuzzPost Number: 13 Registered: Jan-05 | I tried out a KDF-55WF655 and it was great except for the blacks werent black. Tried to live with it, but couldn't. Took it back and got a 36" Sony HD CRT. The picture is great! Finally something that can display true black. Hopefully in a year or so when they improve projection TVs I can move up to a 50" or bigger... |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 30 Registered: Jan-05 | Sole, ALL inputs HDMI, component, S, and composit, eventually get converted back to digital using an 8-bit DtoA converter. The Scaler and LCD engine are digital. If you are using the HDMI input the video signal path looks like this: HDMI --> 10-Bit DtoA --> Analog Component ---> Analog switch ---> 8 bit DtoA--> DSP including scaler ---> LCD engine. This isn't an all digital uncompressed signal path. If your DVD player upconverts to 1080i and has an HDMI output, it should work no problem. The set will convert the signal to analog component then back to digital. The scaler will scale 1080i to 788p. HDMI might look better or worse than using analog component inputs. It depends. Does your DVD player have a better DA converter than the one inside the SiI99993 chip. What scales better Sony TV 480i to 788p, Sony TV 480p to 788p OR, Your DVD player doing 480 to 1080i + Sony TV doing 1080i to 788p. The Sony TV has about 100 internal tweak settings that are different for each input and scan rate. Sony may have set the HDMI tweaks so the picture is better with HDMI than component. The easiest way to find out is to try all three. To be fair you would need to get all three calibrated... Upscaling DVD players typically show the biggest improvment over 480p on sets that can do native 1080i and have a poor or no internal scaler. From what I've read there is typicaly no improvment on an fixed pixel display. However there is one poster on AVS showing a marked improvment on his GWIV. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | I don't know about circuit boards and all that jazz, I have the Dennon 1910 with the DVI output, so I have to use a DVI to HDMI cable to upconvert to 1080i. I just received an E mail, one person thinks that because color and luminance is far better on component to the washed out look of DVI, Sony may have used the component feed with the digital chip you said it has, to provide the better color & luminance, then send that to the b board rather than the HDMI working directly with the B board. I did notice a tighter picture with DVI, but the color just plain sucked, no matter what TV I seen. Perhaps with the LCD, the pictre is a lot tighter to begin with so to send a 1080i through y pb pr before the B board may not result in a less tighter picture, but perhaps better color quality & luminance, before it get to the b board. Component does carry the 1880i and 720p signal, that is a fact, & there has been a sway in recent times to call HD component analog, this it appears to distinguish the difference to the uncompressed digital signal. When digital TV started, it described the difference from the old analog signal that are to be turned off in a couple of years or so, to the standard digital signal that Directv broadcasts, this is 480i digital, it was then described that 720p & 1080i was HD. Many TV models including one I know from Sony only provides the HD Component connection to provide the HD signal. The recent trend to call a digital broadcast in 1080i as "analog" is very confusing and contradictory in a sense to simply distinguish it from an uncompressed signal that has other digital information. People think of analog for what it is, VCR, standard cable, over the air analog. I hope they come up for another word for 1080i HD component than this recent trend. I know what they mean, but by saying that, they make it sound like a HD signal is really nothing more than the analog signal from your VCR. If this was the case the stores selling these seven thousand dollar TV's would not be using the component connection to sell the product, and 99% of all stores use the component connection to display a 1080i digital HD signal. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 32 Registered: Jan-05 | Sole, I'm not sure if I understood all of that. I am certain that Sony did what they did to save time and money. The switch that changes between all video inputs is analog. Sony would have had to redesign the A board and the firmware if they were to run HDMI as a full digital signal to the B board. They would also have had to redesign the B board and several of the chips on the B board. I think Sony's engineers just plain didn't have the time to do all this. Maybe next year. Color, luminace and gamma should be comprable between component and HDMI. As I've said all along there is little difference between how the set handles HDMI and component. You could try playing with the user menu settings . The first thing I'd check is if one input is set to 'Vivid' and another to to Pro or something. Maybe the color is cranked way down on Video 7. dunno. To get it right, you need to have someone come out and calibrate your set. There are dozens of service menu tweaks an expert can adjust. -------------------------------------------- HDMI is a digtial input. All other video inputs on the back of the set are analog. Analog component video can deliver a great picture. |
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J/A TR Unregistered guest | Here is a great article on connections, I like the 1080 y pr pr hd over dvi/hdmi as well. this artice says "You may even find, say, that your DVD player looks better through its DVI or HDMI output, while your satellite or cable box looks better through its component output, on the same display. In this case, there's no real substitute for simply plugging it in and giving it a try both ways." Read it all https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/articles/122868.html |
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New member Username: PugcharlieN, E, PA USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Feb-05 | This evening I had the chance to compare a side-by-side HD broadcast of a Samsung DLP and a SONY KDF-42WE655 LCD rear projection TV at a Circuit City. The Sony won hands down. For clarity and HD sharpness, the Sony LCD is much better. DLPs - all of them -seem sort of smudgy to me whereas the SONY LCD rear projection really haver that 3D look that makes one's gasp in amazement. I plan on an April-May purchae of either the 42 or the 50" SonyKDF series. |
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J/A TR Unregistered guest | Too much digital processing?????? Interesting and controversial subjects. Let me add my 2 cents, although I don't know how to repair a TV, I believe component is better than HDMI/DVI. I don't need to be a TV expert to know what the eys can see. I connected an over the air antenna to a high definition TV that has intergrated ATSC HD tuner, on another feed on the same TV, I connected the Sony HD 200 through DVI/HDMI, although the picture was great with the HDMI, it differed in color quality, not as good as the over the signal with the integrated tuner. I then connected to video 6, the Component cables, the result was an astonishing duplicate of the picture of the feed with the integrated tuner. The integrated tuner is a pure HD signal at it's purest form, no need for set top box transfer through wires. Obviously, the closest to the pure HD signal with the integrated tuner is the winner. Knowing that, I could only now speculate, about the lingo of the pure digital signal of HDMI and the so called B board, and the analog transfer. Mentioned earlier was the digital B board of the TV, but a lot of people don't realize that HDTV set top tuners are really a TV without the screen, they have their own digital board. On the integrated TV, the digital bit stream HD signal goes into the TVs digital processor, then gets broken back down into analog for you to view on your screen. Yes everything is broken down into analog, luminance, Y & C, if is was not, and & you were just viewing a pure digital signal, you will see all numbers on the TV. When using a set top HD box, the digital bit-stream signal (say over the air) is processed by the "set tops" digital board, with the component connection, you are now sending it analog (by electrical voltage) luminance, Y & C to view on the screen. When using a set top box with the HDMI/DVI, after the bit stream digital signal is processed by the set tops digital processor, you are now sending it digital bit stream to the TV's digital processor. That is 2 digital processors for the signal, that may alter the path from what it was intended. The set tops tuner has it's own digital board, the way an integrated HDTV does, once the signal is received by the set top, all you need to do is send it analog to the TV the way the integrated tuner does when it gets a bit-stream signal without a set top. This is why in my opinion, the picture from the set tops component connection identically matched the picture to that feed that had the integrated tuner. HDMI has it's place for the up-conversion of DVD. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Andrew, What if you have a HD ready TV and all you have is an antenna? .... No Box at all. Is the TV's 3d filter being used, or is it something like a direct display of the tuner onto the screen from the over the air broadcast? I hear that digital comb filters are for ntsc signals. If anyone can help me out on that I would appreciate it. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Sorry I meant HD tv with the intergrated tuner with the antenna. |
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Peas Unregistered guest | Yes everything is broken down into analog, luminance, Y & C, if is was not, and & you were just viewing a pure digital signal, you will see all numbers on the TV. Simpy amazing what some poeple will believe, next thing you know you will try to tell us that a digital signal degrades more when kept digital than when it is changed to an analog signal. That is 2 digital processors for the signal, that may alter the path from what it was intended. What a surprise that is what you told us. Your lying eyes need a calibration and your brain needs an education in digital signal processing. Just in case someone believed this dude remember that all LCD and DLP displays keep the signal in the digital domain for 100% of the time.( The lone exception is the 1st generation RCA DLP displays) The only time it approaches analog is when the light from the display screen is transmitted to your eyes. Peas |
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Timmy R Unregistered guest | He is right, at the very last moment it breaks down to analog, read the description of the wega engine. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 36 Registered: Jan-05 | Sole, A comb filter is used with composite video. The filter seperates the color and luminance signals. In other words the filter takes composite video and turns it into s-video. A comb filter is not needed or used for HDMI, analog component or s-video. It isn't needed because the luminace (Y) and color (C) signals are already seperated. So back to your original question: A comb filter is used for Off The Air analog broadcast channels. A comb filter is not used with OTA digital channels. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Thank you Andrew, But if your not using a HDMI or Componet and you have just the antenna in the the tv, how is the Y & C seperated if the digital comb filter is bypassed? |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 39 Registered: Jan-05 | Sole, Here in the US, broadcast digital TV is encoded using the ATSC standard. ATSC video and audio are encoded using MPEG-2. The MPEG-2 decoder inside the set outputs YPrPb component. There is no need for the comb filter as the Y and color information are already seperate. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 40 Registered: Jan-05 | I wasn't clear in my last post. The comb filter is used for analog NTSC broadcast. It is not used with digital ATSC broadcast. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Thank you once again you been a big help! Sole |
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J/A TR Unregistered guest | Mr. Peas, Thank you for your kind words, I do admit to not knowing a heck of a lot about digital processing, but when you said " The only time it approaches anlog is when the light from the display screen is transmitted to your eyes " is basically what I meant when I said "if is was not, and & you were just viewing a pure digital signal, you will see all numbers on the TV". Also, looking at MR. Fisher's post "The MPEG-2 decoder inside the set outputs YPrPb component" may confirm what I been saying all along. YPrPb is analog, and that was an example from an antenna going directly in an HDTV with no box between them. As far as my experiment, let me say that I was not alone with my assessment of claiming that the YPbPR connection from the Sony set top box componet output setting, matched the signal from the feed that was directly in the TV, it also gains a bit of ground with the recent post that said the MPEG decoder inside the TV "outputs YPrPb component". Hummm... since the set top has it's own MPEG decoder that I set to output Y Pb Pr, and the TV that has it's own decoder outputs YPbPr..... that may be a good reason why they matched. Well, people are always free to conduct their own experiment. |
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tom s Unregistered guest | guess he told you peas. |
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Steve Arsenault Unregistered guest | I would like to know if playing Xbox on this kind of TV (Sony 50 or 42 inches LCD) represents a danger ? |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 42 Registered: Jan-05 | Depends. Do you play Grand Theft Auto a lot? The LCD sets are not subject to burn-in problems like a Plasma or CRT set. Xbox shouldn't hurt the set. Just your brain ;) |
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Peas Unregistered guest | guess he told you peas. Making more misleading comments is not exactly telling me anything at all. Digital displays such as DLP and LCD do not change the signal to an analog signal then back to a digital signal, no matter how much J/A TR wishes it was true. For any of you who really care about the difference you may begin at the link below: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/dtv3.htm After reading and comprehending that information, spend 6 years getting an MSEE and you will see your errant mistakes of the past. Peas |
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New member Username: Oldschool420Hanover, PA USA Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-05 | I am trying to decide between the sony KDF-50WE655 and the Mitsubishi WD-52525. Ineed somthing good for tv ,dvd, video games. Anyone have any advice? |
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J/ATR Unregistered guest | Hello again my friend Mr. Peas I never did say that dlp or lcd "change the signal to an analog signal then back to a digital signal" I said on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 09:07 am: read above ... "Yes everything is broken down into analog, luminance, Y & C, if is was not, and & you were just viewing a pure digital signal, you will see all numbers on the TV" Meaning when your eyes view the picture. IF you're getting me confused with someone else that mentioned this Sony's HDMI output's analog that back to digital on the b board,..... it was not me. Sincerely, J/A TR |
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tom s Unregistered guest | what do you say to that peas? |
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New member Username: SunilkPost Number: 2 Registered: Mar-05 | Hi! I just purchased a KDF 55WF655. When my TV is switched off, I see a white patch in the center of the screen. Runs from top to bottom and a circle in the middle. I am concerned, can anyone tell me if something is wrong here? Sincerely, SK |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Do you have the same same problem when watching a dvd as you do TV? If so unplug the TV for a minute and try again. If the problem is still there the set may need repair, it is still under warranty. If you don't have the same problem when watching the DVD it may be the set top box, if you're using one. Try unpluging that for a minute also. Good luck |
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New member Username: SunilkPost Number: 3 Registered: Mar-05 | I see the silvery white like patch running vertical on my KDF 55WF655 only when the TV is switched off. I wonder if this is a burn in from perhaps being a floor model? |
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HD Fanatic Unregistered guest | Relax Sunil. It's just reflection from the anti-glare coating on the screen. All of them, including mine has it. I have the exact same model as yours. Be careful when cleaning the screen, do not use any harsh cleaners. The owners manual explains all this. |
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New member Username: PugcharlieN, E, PA USA Post Number: 10 Registered: Feb-05 | I am getting the KDF50WE655 Tuesday, 3/15 :-). I wanted to add my two cents here. I have seen so much written about the "white patch" or the "white burn-in area", whatever you want to call it. It is the optics or anti glare coating. As you walk past the screen that "white patch" moves. It is nothing to worry about. |
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Peas Unregistered guest | "what do you say to that peas?" by tom s I quote this: "On the integrated TV, the digital bit stream HD signal goes into the TVs digital processor, then gets broken back down into analog for you to view on your screen. Yes everything is broken down into analog, luminance, Y & C, if is was not, and & you were just viewing a pure digital signal, you will see all numbers on the TV. " And say the final verdict is guilty. Now if you read the entire post above where this excerpt originated you will notice he is not allowing for a different calibration between an analog input which is pleasing to his eyes and a digital input which must be calibrated differently, which is not so pleasing to his eyes. Furthermore he never states exactly which display he used to perform his scientific "eyeball" test. It is most likely the OTA source which he thinks is digital is actually either an analog OTA signal or his set does not have an entirely digital path when processing an OTA digital signal. Peas has spoken! |
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J/A TR Unregistered guest | Hey hey, Mr. Peas my buddy! No I didn't touch upon calibration, I simply made the experiment the way I described. Now, reading the above post by Andrew, he said "The MPEG-2 decoder inside the set outputs YPrPb component" my point was if the TV's over the air built in HD tuner is doing that, & the MPEG 2 decoder on a set top is going out component, it's understandable to me why these 2 signals matched. Also, your assumption is wrong to say that my over the air signal is probably analog. First of all, of course it's over the air HD signal, I'm performing a test to compare a set top to the TV'S integrated tuner, you can't get HBO etc. over the air. At the time of the test, all the major networks were broadcasting in either 720p or 1080i 16.9. If you think my set isn't processing an entire digital path for an over the air signal... eh? .... Did Sony screw this one up guys? Sincerely, J/A TR |
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J/A TR Unregistered guest | My apologies Mr. Peas.... My wife pointed out the era, I used the word "back" down into analog.... I had just got finished reading Andrew's post about the HDMI going to component and then "Back" to digital... guess I had that in my head. Never intended to mean the signal was analog anytime other than before it approached ones eyes. However, I believe the focal point of my initial post still stands, the MPEG2 decoder in an integrated tv puts out component... the set tops MPEG2 decoder I set to output component. The component output on the set top matched identically to the signal I was getting with the antenna going into the TV's integrated tuner. |
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Tom s Unregistered guest | What does Andrew Fischer think of J/A's experiment? |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 43 Registered: Jan-05 | I'm siting this one out. Not at all interested in an argument with either peas or J/A. If you have a specific question about the set, I'd be happy to attempt an answer. |
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Peas Unregistered guest | "However, I believe the focal point of my initial post still stands, the MPEG2 decoder in an integrated tv puts out component... the set tops MPEG2 decoder I set to output component." My last shot at salvation for you my friend J/A TR. A MPEG2 (digital) stream is not broken down into an analog signal in a DLP set. There is no need it would be ludicrous, redundant and useless (much like this discussion and this sentence). The signal is transmitted digitally, received digitally, scaled if neceassary, decoded digitally and finally displayed digitally by the TI DLP chip. LCD displays work much in the same manner except for the DLP chip. If one reads my link posted many posts above it all becomes clear. Do not confuse yourself by thinking that a digital signal and an analog signal can ever be of the same quality nor identical in presentation of the original data. Think of it like this: Just because you like cheap wine and another person enjoys a fine champagne, that doesn't make the cheap wine better, it just makes it cheaper. Peas |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Andrew, did you hear of any problems with this TV's display feature, where it says video 5 and the current time as if you just turned on the TV, popping on at random out of nowhere when you been watching the TV for a while? This happened to me 3 times. |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 44 Registered: Jan-05 | Yeah. It hasn't happend recently but every once it awhile the set pops up the banner display without hitting the button on the remote. It also occasionaly pops out of zoom mode. As far as I know Sony has not issued a patch for either of these bugs. |
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J/A TR Unregistered guest | It was A F who said the MPEG2 DECODER outputs component on the integrated TV, we are talking about this TV, not a DLP. My experiment was on this TV, & the component output matched the signal with the integrated tuner better than the HDMI. Digital light I'm understanding more, but it has problems also, rainbow effects etc. I understand that digital light is supposed eliminate noise (if any) caused from digital to analog conversion. Overall DLP is not better, LCD has better vividness & color saturation over DLP, http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/lcdtv.html. |
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J/A TR Unregistered guest | It was A F who said the MPEG2 DECODER outputs component on the integrated TV, we are talking about this TV, not a DLP. My experiment was on this TV, & the component output matched the signal with the integrated tuner better than the HDMI. Digital light I'm understanding more, but it has problems also, rainbow effects etc. I understand that digital light is supposed eliminate noise (if any) caused from digital to analog conversion. Overall DLP is not better, LCD has better vividness & color saturation over DLP, http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/lcdtv.html. |
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HD Fanatic Unregistered guest | Andrew and Sole, I have been experiencing the same problem with the banner popping up by itself while watch DVD's on my KDF-55WF655. It has happened 3 times since I got it about 2 & 1/2 weeks ago. Although it's a minor problem, (more of a nuisance),I think I might take mine back. I have been looking at upgrading to the 60" anyway. I really love the picture quality of these, so it's kind of a double-edged sword in hoping I will get a good one. The set I have now is actually my second one. The first one had video dropouts on the component inputs. While watching DVD's the screen would go black for about .5 to 1 sec. This would happen randomly, and never at the same spot of the movie. The problem started out very infrequent, but eventually it started happening 5-7 times throughout a movie. 2 different DVD players were tried with the same results. If you read on the AVS forum, you will find that there are a lot of other people with the same problem. I have not heard of the problem yet on the 42" and 50" yet, but you may want to keep you eyes open for it. Can each of you do me a favor and look at the build date on your sets? It should be located on the back of the tv, towards the middle. I have a January 05 build date. Let me know what yours is. I'm trying to see if there is a correlation. Thanks... |
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Bronze Member Username: Andrew_debbiePost Number: 45 Registered: Jan-05 | All MPEG decoders must output digital YPrPb component, at least internally. It is part of how MPEG works. ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- The details of what Sony did inside the box are interesting to me because I'm an engineer. I've worked with digital video before and some of the design choices Sony made suprised me. We can only guess why Sony's engineers made the choices they did. In the end what really matters is PRICE, PICTURE QUALITY and dependiblity. Picture quality is subjective. Various things can be measured and compared of course, but after all the measurements are made, compared and discussed, it up to us to decide we like what we see. <bold>I like the way my set looks.</bold> I prefered the picture to the picture of on other sets in the price range. Dependability? Time will tell. |
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Bronze Member Username: PugcharlieN, E, PA USA Post Number: 23 Registered: Feb-05 | I've now had my KDF-50WE655 for a week and am very, very pleased with it. The picture is beautiful and I don't see the necessity of a calibration. I decreased the color level a little and it is just a beautiful, luminous picture. My HD signal needs tweaking by my cable company since not all HD channels are coming in. What HD channel works one day, tiles and breaks up the next. It is a signal issue and there is old cable in the apartment building where I live. Fortunately on my service order, it says "Per Technician, Can get HD." So, I guess they'll have to work on the signal. Love the TV!!!!!!!!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: PugcharlieN, E, PA USA Post Number: 24 Registered: Feb-05 | I may have solved the HD signal problem. I have a Monster Power Center: model HTS 1000. The cable coming into my apartment was plugged into the Power Center and then out to the HD converter box. I bypassed the Power Center and plugged the cable directly into the converter box and all channels seem fine. I'm wondering if that extra step decreased the signal.???? |
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Robert28 Unregistered guest | I'm considering buying the 50". Is the KDF-50WE655 worth the money? |
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Bronze Member Username: PugcharlieN, E, PA USA Post Number: 25 Registered: Feb-05 | yes I am very happy with the set. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | HD Fanatic, Upgrading to the 60 most likely won't solve the problem, I have the 42 & the 50 and seen the banner pop up on both sets, so it's most likely the 655 series. Both my sets say Jan/05. Sony has to be notified of the problem. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Andrew I found a board on the problem they thought it was the remote but it is not. When you press the display button on the remote, the display will stay on until you hit it again and then it will turn off. Now the problem. When the info display comes on at random when the set has been on for a while, it goes off by itself the same way it does when you first turn on the set, so the bug is recreating this feature when the set has been on for a while. So it is not the remote sending the display signal, if it was you have to hit the display button to get the info off the screen. So the TV is getting the illusion that it has been JUST turned on when it has not been. I'm going to try these things......... First to unplug the set for 30 seconds. I noticed this first time this problem happened is after I set the current time, although I haven't had the set long, the current time is part of that display. .. may be clicking on at random when it registers a new minute Second thing to do .... Reset the TV to factory settings (manual page 125), this should not reset your color settings, this will set the clock back to un programmed. Third thing to do .... Turn INFO Banner to off. If you have an antenna going into the TV's integrated tuner, the display feature could come on when new programming information is sent to the TV from the local stations. Forth thing to do... I think this may be the problem, ... never know.... set the image shift to a locked number 1 to 4 other than auto, could be the automatic shift of some kind that is triggering a NEW shift in the picture, giving the TV the illusion that the picture just appeared on the screen AS WHEN YOU TURN IT ON THE TV AND THE INFO DISPLAY APPEARS.... Ahhhhhhh... think about it. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Andrew I tried all that & it still poped up. Do you have any idea if this problem can be repaired? What circuit, can it be replaced or reset? What I can't understand is why it is so infrequent. |
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HD Fanatic Unregistered guest | Did you turn the info banner off? If so, did it still pop up on the screen? I exchanged my set yesterday for an XS model. The main reason I exchanged mine was because it has 2 HDMI inputs. The info popping up didn't bother me enough to take it back. It acts like a sensor somewhere is being activated, which makes the TV think that it was just turned on. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Hi HD Fanatic, I turned off the banner it still popped up, although I did notice the last two times it happened, it was when I just started to play a show that the DVR recorded. I thought that I may have turned the TV or hit the display button WHEN the feature was being recorded, but no I ran tests and the DVR doesn't record the image banner of the TV. I did unplug the set, set the image shift to a set number, turned off the clock & turned off the banner so we know it's none of these, however ..... I just realized that I did not reset the TV, I did it wrong, I held the power button on the remote instead of on the TV. So today I did it the right way and the initial set up came on again so .... we will see, I doubt it will work. It still may be possible that it could be the image shift, setting it to certain number may not stop the pop up if that's if what it is causing it. Setting to a number 1-4 may not mean that it doesn't activate when a double image appears, it just may mean that it activates at that level (the number you set it for) to correct the image instead of auto, where the set chooses the level of image correction for you. So even if it's at a set number, when there is a double image, that level image shift kicks in, corrects or shifts the image, giving the set the illusion that the a new image came on the screen as in the manner of when you change video input or turn the set on. Well, I'm still weighing my options, going to look at the Sharp Aquas 45 inch LCD. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Well I researched the last few hours and this is what I got .... A shift in an image results in a plus or a minus of any digital image, the whole image will lighten or darken, it effects the contrast. It is a shift in the luminance, it appears that it can give the TV the interruption enough to register a new image in the manner of switching video feeds. It appears that when this occurs, the image can re-register, in the manner of when you switch from video 5 to video 6 and the TV's banner appears. My best guess, but this happens to infrequent for me to think it was a bug in the set. This sounds reasonable. |
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Sole Unregistered guest | Listen, I'm just a guy trying to figure this out, don't mean to drive anyone up the wall, sorry if I have, but i think I figured it out. As far as I'm concerned PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!! OK... It happened on my 42 inch this morning, I was in video 5, that is my satellite feed, I noticed the TV's banner said CSI Miami. The TV's info banner is not supposed to register any info on video 5, it is supposed to say no programming info available. On top of it, CSI Miami was not being shown anywhere on all of my 29 terrestrial channels. I light of this new information, I now believe that it is not the image shift, but faulty information being sent to the TV menu, making the display banner react to faulty information. Even if you have the info banner set to off, may just mean that you decided for that not to appear on the screen, the info however, is still being sent to the TV and registers inside the set. It appears to be faulty signals, regardless of the source, could be any kind, being sent to the TV, making the set react in that manner. |
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HD Fanatic Unregistered guest | Next time you watch a DVD, try disconnecting your antenna/satellite connection. If it's something that is being sent through the broadcast, this should tell you. |
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Ronald NE Unregistered guest | it could be any kind of interferance, car alarm, microwaves, affecting the banner if it's that sensitive. I Think soles onto something, why would the description of the show come up on video 5? |
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Sole Unregistered guest | I'm hearing if one lives near buildings or where frequencies can bounce can trigger signal interference, whatever. Can it sometimes be an radio frequency or something in your living room???? I watched 2 DVDs today with the antenna still in the set and there was no display pop up, it's rare, at least where I am, like 3 times in over a month I seen that act up, so for me to pull the antenna out and keep watching DVDs will most likely result in nothing. The other 2 times the pop ups had no program information, and many of the terrestrial channels do not have the program description anyway, but for the program description to show up once when the display acted by itself, is enough to tell me that it came from an outside source. |
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tom s Unregistered guest | I reset the TV to the factory settings last week, have not seen the pop up since then. |
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tom s Unregistered guest | Still no pop up going on 2 weeks. |
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Anonymous | I've had the set for about five months. Really enjoy it. No regrets. |
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New member Username: RobboPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-05 | My projector lamp failed in the 5th month of ownership, and I am awaiting replacement by Sony in-home service. My unit's serial number is 9228XXX, and it was built in November 2004. Should I be concerned that there is a problem beyond the lamp itself - the power supply or driver board? |
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New member Username: Kmac2878NY Post Number: 1 Registered: May-05 | Good evening everyone - I bought the KDF-50WE655 set and I'm having it delivered on the 28th of May - this has been a great thread - I can't come across as a high-tech buff, so my question is this ...what accessories should I get for this set? I'm moving into a new apartment at the end of the month, so I'll probably just have cable to begin with - I don't want to buy some items just because of the name - I want some items that will make my Sony great/safe! Things like cables, antennas, surge protectors, cleaning kits, etc - what items do you guys have?? Thanks in advance for your time, effort, and suggestions! |
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Bronze Member Username: MrmagooHanover, MA USA Post Number: 25 Registered: Mar-05 | Also a non techie guy and just got my set a week ago! KDF-55WF655. You will need a stand and a surge protector. That's it. I wouldn't bother getting anything else until you know you will need it. If your cable picture is fine - then you are all set. I just had a cable card installed and so far that is working great. |
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New member Username: ThetinramPost Number: 1 Registered: May-05 | Friends... Can we determine once and for all about the whole HDMI conversion to analog. Does the set convert the digital signal from the HDMI signal to analog and then back to digital? Reading this thread I get conflicting opinions. When I first read Andrew's post I felt I was being cheated by Sony. The whole "their engineers didn't have the time to.." does not sound good. Do different brand of set convert to analog later in the proccess? |
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New member Username: CyfairslamHouston, Texas USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Dec-04 | I have the kdf-55wf655. The owners manual states there is an advanced video. However, I cannot figure out how to access it. Is this option only available on some of the other models. Also, still have not been able to get more than 27 analog cable stations while my other TVs in the house get 60 plus channels. Anyone have any answers? Thanks |
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