Release Date for 1080p models
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Bug Unregistered guest | Anyone know more precise release dates for the new 1080p's? Im in Canada and was wondering how long I'll have to wait. Thanks! |
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Bug Unregistered guest | I guess no one here knows any specifics. |
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Anonymous | quite a while!!! |
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DLP4me! Unregistered guest | Anon the idiot... Bug, I'm hearing next month, but it could be delayed a little. http://www.cnet.com/4520-10602_1-5619186-1.html?tag=brand |
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Anonymous | dlp get off this formus no 1 wants u here |
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Silver Member Username: Mr_lynchSeattle, WA Post Number: 732 Registered: Sep-04 | Bug- 1080p sets are already out. Sony has a 70" 1080p LCoS set, Mitsubishi has the 82" 1080p LCoS set and sharp has had a 45" 1080p LCD for quite some time. JVC is releasing their 1080P Dila sets around June/July, and Samsung just announced their 1080p DLP sets will also launch in July. Canada might be different though. You guys seem to get stuff a little later than we do in the states. |
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Bug Unregistered guest | Mr. Lynch- Thanks for the update. Based on the other thread I think I will get the HD52z575 (I can't wait for 1080p and can't afford it!). I really liked what you and the other guys have said about the JVC and support. Cheers. |
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Bug Unregistered guest | Mr Lynch Oh by the way...do you know what is better Digital Coax Cable vs Fibre Optics for my reciever input? Thanks |
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ogbuehi Unregistered guest | Hey bug, Unless you're an audiophile you probably won't notice the difference between optical and coax connections. There's slight differences as far as the sound sounding warmer with one versus the other but you have to listen for yourself. I personally use both because it simply allows me to connect more stuff digitally. Coax is a lot cheaper if that makes a difference too.... Does anybody know when anything that outputs 1080p will be released? |
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FYI Unregistered guest | Did you catch the Klaus post above? |
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Silver Member Username: Mr_lynchSeattle, WA Post Number: 738 Registered: Sep-04 | I too use them both and I can not tell the difference. |
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Bug Unregistered guest | Thanks to all! Cheers |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Bug: I'm in Canada too and anxious to get a 1080p TV. Westinghouse has an LCD 37" 1080p available now in the states for about $2,200 USD. BenQ also has a 37" LCD priced around $2,000 USD, but there seems to be continual delays in releasing this model. I'm trying to get the Westinghouse shipped to Vancouver - note that it doesn't come with an NTSC tuner - you'll need cable or a satellite box (not an issue here - we don't really get any over-the-air broadcasts due to the mountains...). Check out this link: http://www.abesofmaine.com/viewproduct.asp?id=whlvm37w1 There are a whole flood of 1080p TVs on the cusp of being released - I wouldn't buy anything less at this point. Also, the new Sony PS3 has, I believe, 1920 X 1080p as its default resolution... Hope this helps! |
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ogbuehi Unregistered guest | All these 1080p sets sound great but when is anything going to be able to output 1080p? |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 18 Registered: May-05 | I guess you mean 1080P broadcasts! I heard that ESPN was going to have an event or two broadcasted in 1080P next year. Maybe HD DVD's will have some 1080P content. There won't be much of a library, initially. The 1080P sets will be scaling up the two HD standards for a while. That's for sure. |
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Bronze Member Username: KlausHoliday, FL USA Post Number: 53 Registered: May-05 | yeah, line doubled pixelation. That's something to look forward to! Much of the current HD content is flawed badly enough. Maybe Blu-ray will change all that. Digital cable definitely hasn't. |
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why wait for 1080p Unregistered guest | It doesn't look like DVD-HD will support 1080p right away. I can also promise you ESPN is NOT planning on broadcasting anything in 1080p. WHoever thinks this needs to wake up. 1080p takes up twice the bandwidth of 720p, and nobody can transfer that much data as of yet. Maybe a few years down the road you might see 1080p but you need to remember that most broadcasters haven't even gotten 720p/1080i down yet. Press release- Despite saying that the company continues to discuss a possible unification of rival high-definition optical disc formats, Toshiba's U.S. marketing executives speaking at the company's annual line show, here, held to earlier announcements that they will launch the first U.S. HD-DVD player in the fourth quarter. Jodi Sally, Toshiba's digital A/V group marketing VP, unveiled to dealers and press an as yet unnamed HD-DVD player, which is slated to retail for "under $1,000" late this year. The exact feature set of the player have not be finalized, but Sally said the player will playback HD DVDs, DVDs and CDs. High-definition resolution output will include both the 720p and 1,080i formats. Outputs will include HDMI and IEEE-1394, and the first player will support interactivity and Internet connectivity. For audio, the player will include decoders for both Dolby Digital Plus and DTS HD, she added. |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 21 Registered: May-05 | I'm with you on the first HD-DVD players possibly not supporting 1080P, but the blu-ray camp is listing it as one of their available outputs. With talks going on about a possible merger prior to any USA release, there's really no way to know. As for bandwidth, the 1080P format is already a consideration in the ATSC's 18 approved formats. All digital tuners are built to accept these 18 format standards. It appears that bandwidth wasn't an issue as the ATSC has determined that 1080P will have a devided frame rate of 30fps, compared to 60fps for 720P. http://support.gateway.com/s/CsmrEltrncs/DigitalTV/Shared/2517984faq42.shtml |
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Bronze Member Username: VideobruceBuffalo , NY Post Number: 60 Registered: Nov-04 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-video/141040.html |
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ogbuehi Unregistered guest | So it sounds to me like buying a 1080p set is almost comparable to buying betamax during the betamax vs. vhs wars. Better technology but nothing supporting it because lower technology has alreay become mainstream. Blu-ray is nice and all but if that is the only thing slated to produce 1080p signals, 1080p sets might not be worth the money. |
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New member Username: Xxxfubar187xxxPost Number: 10 Registered: Aug-04 | why wait for 1080p, Maybe you should check your sources before you tell people to "wake up". From: http://www.cnet.com/4520-7911_1-5545074-1.html "With Blu-ray and HD-DVD on the way and with broadcasters such as ESPN already promising 1080p, 2005 will be the year HD gets real." |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 30 Registered: May-05 | Thanks FUBAR, I guess it's time for some other people to wake up! I knew I saw that ESPN info somewhere. og, The Samsung HL-R6768W is a 1080P native display that was scaling a 1080I content format at the January Las Vegas CES when it won "Best in Show" over all other new displays. The 1080P format is spectacular whether it gets 1080P content or scales an existing HD format. |
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why wait Unregistered guest | read this before getting too excited... http://www.cedmagazine.com/ced/2004/0604/06e.htm Until they solve the bandwidth problem, don't expect too much. |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 31 Registered: May-05 | The 19.4 mbs per channel bandwidth was pulled out of thin air due to the bandwidth limitations of mainly cable operators. Off-air broadcasters are going to loose their vhf spectrum next year. The new FCC allocation can and probably will account for greater digital bandwidth channel requirements to accommmodate 1080P. Let's be realistic! If consumers can have 1080P content from blu-ray DVD's or sat and display it on their presently available 1080P sets the cable operators and network broadcasters will be forced to catch up or risk loosing viewers, market share, and advertising dollars. Direct TV has already considered this aspect of HD competition and they are engineering 1080P transponders or compression technology on the four new birds going into orbit. (two this summer and two next year) Mark my words, subscribers will need a new HD sat receiver in a year or so. Cable companies have invested millions in a race to install fiber-optic backbones with extraordinary bandwidth capabilities. They know that they need to be ready for the HD trends or be left behind. Cable subscribers will need a new STB before long as well. |
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fx Unregistered guest | No matter what that writer wrote in the above article ESPN is not either going to nor even capable of broadcasting in 1080p this year or next. It would require all new cameras, studio gear, processing equipment, remote HD trucks, and broadcast equipment. Literally tens of millions of dollars in new expenditures when the 720p gear has not yet paid for itself It is not just as easy as saying, "Heh, I think we'll broadcast the Cowboys in 1080p this week." xvxvxvx |
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ogbuehi Unregistered guest | I imagine just from a common sense point that 1080p looks better than 720p/1080i. The real question is how much better. There's been so much invested in 720p/1080i now and there's almost nothing out there to show you why 1080p is worth the money. This is the same problem hd had when it first came out. The sets came out with no feeds to them. Then the feeds came out but weren't connected to the sets. Hd finally took off when they finally put the 2 together for the average consumer. That is the key right there. Most of us consider ourselves hd fanatics but it's the average consumer who is going to determine whether or not a type of technology is going to take off. I know nobody in physical person who has a clue what hd is or how much better it is than sdtv. Now the industry wants us to go and buy another hd set and a new dvd player just after they just bought a digital or hd set. We know about 1080p just because we like to be on the forefront of new video technologies. 1080p may be better but I think it's better to see if it will even become mainstream. Mainly awaiting the outcome of the soon coming hd-dvd vs. blu-ray war. |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 33 Registered: May-05 | Yup! I'll talk about'em all day. I'll take one if you give it to me. I don't have 5k-6k to throw around, though. Stay safe over there, og! I've gotta lotta respect for you guys working in the hot zone. |
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Bronze Member Username: VideobruceBuffalo , NY Post Number: 61 Registered: Nov-04 | ogbuehi; nothing was 'better' about Betamax! Old transport taken from the 3/4 inch format which was a nightmare to begin with. The Beta load was changed mid stream, but that still didn't help. The image was softer, just as those terrible Smear-a-trons everyone thought were so great with their cosmetic soft overly image. |
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Bronze Member Username: VideobruceBuffalo , NY Post Number: 63 Registered: Nov-04 | why wait; very good link! |
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ogbuehi Unregistered guest | The main reason I say betamax was better is because all the average consumers around me thought it was better. It might not have been technically, but it was enough that the average consumer could tell. I'm hoping that I would be able to buy one in the 60in. range for around $3500 by the time I get back. Otherwise I won't be able to wait to say I'm officially in the HD video stream. FYI: Thanks for your support. It's always nice to know that people back in the U.S. still think about us. Hopefully I should be back in the states in about 4 week to make my big screen hd purchase. |
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Bronze Member Username: VideobruceBuffalo , NY Post Number: 64 Registered: Nov-04 | " the average consumer could tell " You hit the nail on the head, the same average consumer that couldn't/wouldn't program the machine in the first place. I rest my case! |
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Bronze Member Username: KlausHoliday, FL USA Post Number: 59 Registered: May-05 | 1080p is the equivalent of driving a Testarosa in downtown Manhatten during rush hour. You know that you are capable of awesome feats, but are limited to a crawl! Has anyone done the math to figure out from all the various cable channels what % is HD or even ED content? Guestimate is about .0001%. When will we see HDTV, Speed Channel, FX, USA, etc in HD? I bet it will be years! 1080p native will be upscaling for a long time for virtually all programming material. By comparison with the DVD versions of movies vs the HD HBO versions, there is virtually no difference, leading me to beleive that the shows are actually upconverted 480p. (which is ED!) 1080p will be nice for huge screen sets to allow closer viewing without seeing the pixels, but woe unto the set with a bad scaler! |
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Anonymous | I think everyone is confusing the availability of broadcast with the capability of the display. A 1080p display (resolution) is the only way to display all of the information from a 1080i (bandwidth) source! Anything less than a 1080p resolution display, 1920x1080, will need to be downconverted. So even if the only sources we have are 1080i, we still need 1080p displays to get the most of them. |
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New member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 9 Registered: May-05 | That is in fact a very true statement. It would be similar to the equivalent of a 480i DVD signal, being displayed in progressive format (480P).There is no upconverting when displaying a progressive signal of the same number resolution. The frequency at which the signal is displayed is basically doubled due to the effeciency of how progressive scan works. Very good point. Maybe the 1080P sets will be worth the wait afterall. I guess that will depend on how many broacasters transmit in 1080i. I know that in my area, CBS, NBC, and PBS all transmit 1080i, so maybe more will follow suit. |
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Anonymous | You are also missing one of the most obvious immediate uses. A 37" screen at 1920x1080 connected to DVI on a PC, is just about perfect. Put the thing at least 4-5 feet away from you and presto, the perfect PC monitor. I've been using a 720p LCD TV for my primary computer screen for some time now, and I love it. With 1080p, that'll be just about perfect. |
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Bronze Member Username: Juan_sardaMiami, Fl USA Post Number: 18 Registered: Jan-05 | http://www.avsforum.com/hdtvfaq/HDTV-FAQ.htm got info below from link above Who is using each system? At present, CBS delivers its filmed and live HD programs in 1080i, as does NBC, PBS, The WB, and UPN stations owned by CBS. Cable and satellite premium networks such as HBO, Showtime, Discovery HD, HDNet, HDNet Movies, INHD, and NBA TV use the 1080i format exclusively to broadcast movies and special programs. ABC and ESPN HD networks broadcast prime-time programs, live events, and sports exclusively in 720p. The Fox network currently broadcasts 480p digital television, with plans to switch to the 720p HDTV format starting in the fall of 2004. There seems to be alot of 1080i, is it worth the wait & $$$ got 1080p?? |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | The post above about properly displaying 1080i is right on the mark - despite manufacturers' claims to the contrary, you CANNOT display 1080i without 1080 lines, and in order to get 1080 lines horizontally at a 16 X 9 aspect ratio, you need 1920 vertical lines. Many TVs can ACCEPT a 1080i signal, but they're NOT displaying 1080 lines - the signal is downconverted to match the number of horizontal lines. For example, a 1280 X 720 TV will NEVER display more than 720 lines, regardless of the input. What's amusing is seeing $20K Sony flat screens incapable of resolving more than 720 lines! As for content, I mentioned the Sony Playstation 3 above - here's an interesting blurb: "To match the accelerating convergence of digital consumer electronics and computer technology, PS3 supports high quality display in resolution of 1080p(*) as standard, which is far superior to 720p/1080i. (*)1080p/720p/1080i: "p" stands for progressive scan method, "i" stands for interlace method. 1080p is the highest resolution within the HD standard." Blu-ray will support 1080p, and I don't expect bandwidth will remain an issue for long. Bear in mind also that all fixed-pixel displays (such as plasma, LCD, DLP) display ALL content at the native resolution of the TV - the 1280 X 720 TV I mentioned above will ALWAYS display EVERY signal at 720 horizontal lines, regardless of source resolution. Likewise, a 1920 X 1080. As for the $$$, I mentioned in my earlier post that both Westinghouse and BenQ have 37" LCD 1080p units available (tho BenQ has been delayed) around $2,000 USD (!!!). Expect a flood of 1080p TVs before year end... |
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Bronze Member Username: VideobruceBuffalo , NY Post Number: 83 Registered: Nov-04 | "What's amusing is seeing $20K Sony flat screens incapable of resolving more than 720 lines!" What's more amusing are the people with that kind of $$ that buy one, mostly to impress. (matches the Lexus & the Expedition in the driveway) |
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Bronze Member Username: Pilot53Post Number: 16 Registered: May-05 | Videobruce, I have an Expedition in the driveway (2004) and an Acura (1999) that still runs great. Whats wrong with an expedition? Where I live, it is no status symbol. I use the Expedition for work. I am getting my 61Z786 JVC tomorrow afternoon. It will not sit in the driveway though. 720P still will look great at 13 feet. Pilot53 |
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Bronze Member Username: VideobruceBuffalo , NY Post Number: 84 Registered: Nov-04 | "Whats wrong with an expedition?" Gas guzzling road hog. Pure excess. "Where I live, it is no status symbol." Everyone else must have something similar...... Guiess you don't care about anyone else? |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | I'm looking for a 60ish inch TV and was getting some good info on 1080p. Man this place deteriorated fast. It's like a shootout in a saloon. Can't we all just get along? |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 15 Registered: May-05 | TDawg, JVC is going to be releasing their 1080P set this fall, the HD-61FH96. There are a couple of websites taking pre-orders now. Ths set will have the right stuff. 2 HDMI inputs, dual IEEE 1394 inputs, and a true analog grey scale for more detail on dark scenes. Initially the price will be a bit high at $6000, but that's less than half of what Sony wants for their LCoS 1080P set the Qualia 006 which is going for a steep 13 grand! Here's a link to read more about the JVC model. http://www.tvauthority.com/Coming-Soon/JVC-HD-61FH96.asp |
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Bronze Member Username: Juan_sardaMiami, Fl USA Post Number: 19 Registered: Jan-05 | Just got of the phone with JVC (1-800-252-5722), they said the 1080P HD-61FH96 will be released the 1st week of sept 2005, MSRP around $6500 so that means is should cost between $4k-$5k locally, I just bought the HD-61Z886 at brandsmart for $2498, 5 year parts & Labor $298, and 5 year bulb replacement $99,Delivery $39. It is scheduled to be delivered next week,I am seriously thinking about canceling the order & waiting til Sept. There are alot of channels bradcasting in 1080i, any advice?? |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | Thanks for the info, HD Fanatic. I've been quite interested in the JVCs. I'm not a big fan of DLP's because I find there is more screen noise. I don't notice the rainbow effect, but the screen noise really gets to me more on those sets than LCD's (even though everyone seems to think DLP has the edge). I don't mind the screen door effect on LCD projection, as long as I'm a proper distance away. The JVC (720p) is a nice alternative to both, but I have read (and seen to some degree) it doesn't produce a great picture with SD content. I'm afraid that the 1080p with all of those extra pixels to scale would be even worse. Any thoughts, or am I out to lunch? -brace for some abnoxious responses-----NOW! |
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Bronze Member Username: Pilot53Post Number: 24 Registered: May-05 | I was going to wait for the 1080P's also, but got a 61Z786 instead. It does 1080i, and 720P, but not 1080P. I do not think that there will be too much 1080P stuff out for a while. The JVC 61Z has such a great picture that at 12 feet away, I do not know if you could tell the difference between 720P and 1080P. The HD cable channels are fantastic. The SD and analog are not that bad either. If you put the non digital channels in the VHF input on the TV and the digital channels go through the cable box, the picture is good on all channels. I just figured that out last night. My kids think the wide screen and the picture quality is great, and makes my picture tube TV's (and I have some good ones) look like garbage compared to the JVC. Pilot53 |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 51 Registered: May-05 | TDawg, Please explain what you mean by "screen noise". Are you talking about snowy or grainy picure or what? A digital display that is supplied with a digital signal won't have a snowy or grainy picture. ANY display supplied with a bad analog signal such as a poor cable tv signal will look "noisy". |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | I am talking about snowy or grainy picture when I say "screen noise". I see it with non-HD content, digital or analog. I know the saying "garbage in, garbage out" but not everything is HD yet. |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 55 Registered: May-05 | Direct TV eliminates that "noise"! Digital signal for a digital tv makes sense. Making your cable operator live up to their responsibility will reduce it. Digital off-air networks and HD channels will change the way you watch tv. I wouldn't base my display selection on the quality of my cable signal no more than I would base my selection on how well an obsolete game box works on it, but people do just that every day! |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | Unfortunately FYI, sometimes we have to be realistic and make the most of the situation at hand. In my case, I live in a condo townhouse and I'm not allowed to have a dish, which leaves me only cable. The cable has been less then a bastion of reliability (5 technicians in 5 months) although they seem to have my problems fixed for the moment. |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 57 Registered: May-05 | Good luck with them TDawg! Personnaly, I couldn't live in a place where deed restrictions or an association could limit my choices. It's un-American! With cable it's a never ending battle. You can force them to perform a sweep of every active and passive device from the source to your set. I'm a firm believer in the "squeaky wheel" theory. They must meet or exceed FCC specifications as part of the franchise committment to your city. If they ever give you any trouble just contact your city manager. You will be instantly at the top of their list for problem resolution. As for 1080P, I think more progressively scanned lines will yield a sharper clearer picture, especially on screens larger than 50 inches. Analog cable signal noise will eventually disappear as more digital channels are added. |
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fx Unregistered guest | "I live in a condo townhouse and I'm not allowed to have a dish, which leaves me only cable. " Actually they cannot forbid a dish if you place it on non-community property. The FCC has guidelines for the allowed restrictions. They cannotstop you from erecting a Sat Dish on you portion of the propert that is not shared, this includes your patio. Here are a few helpful links: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publ...A-03-2971A1.pdf Many people have been successful by simply printing out the relevant FCC regulation, handing it to the association and then erecting thier dish or antenna. Alternatively you can just erect it in an area protected by the FCC and they dare not remove it. If they tell you it must come down it is simple to file an FCC petition for a ruling and then it is allowed to stay (even if you are in the wrong) until the FCC makes a final ruling. This often takes 18 months or longer. xvxvxvx |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 58 Registered: May-05 | My son lived in an apartment complex that had restrictions against mounting a sat dish to the structure. He made sure that he moved into a unit with a patio that faced the southern sky. Then, he purchased a small fence post, a 5 gallon bucket, and a sack of ready-mix concrete from the local Home Depot. In a few hours he was watching Direct TV. After his successful endeavor the free-standing dish mounts started appearing on several patios. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pilot53Post Number: 25 Registered: May-05 | I am a Ham Radio Operator. I used to live in a condo, too. I put an antenna on my rear balcony, kind of like FYI's son did. They tried to force me to take it down. At the time, you could not get the docs off of the internet. I had to call the FCC, and have the docs sent. I showed it to the board, and they said too bad, CCR's say no antennas. I said that if they actually read the law, federal law says that on my own, non shared part of the property, regardless if they can see it, I can put up my antenna, as long as it is not taller than 52 feet. It was not even close. To make a very long story short, they capitulated when they found out that they could get sued for a lot of money and they would lose very quickly. We moved 2 months later. I've had my JVC 61Z786 for about a week. It looks great. I put the analong channels on the VHF connection, the digital comes through the HD cable box and the DVD player goes in the HDMI port. Everything looks great. The analog channels are a little fuzzy, so sometimes we reduce the screen size. For digital, we set it to full, and for DVD's, we let the DVD and the TV set themselves and it looks fantastic. I was watching HBO HD cable Spider Man. During high motion scenes, it seemed that the bandwidth could not keep up with the picture. It gets blocky for a second. When I play the DVD, it is perfect. Anyway, it is a great TV. When there is enough 1080P stuff out there, and if I can see a difference between 720P and 1080P at 12 to 13 feet, then I will get a 1080P set. By then, I hope the price will come down on them. Pilot53 |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | Thanks for the FCC advice, but unfortunately I live in Toronto, and they can get away with the restrictions here. I knew the hassle when I bought the place a few months ago, but it was one of those deals that were too good to pass up. I only plan on living here for a couple of years anyway. Either way, I'm probably moving to the U.S. in the next few years, and by then my choices will be a lot better, for all sorts of reasons. I took a look at the JVC's today and they looked pretty good, depending on the quality of the signal and connection. They are what I'm leaning towards now, but still deciding on whether or not to wait for the 1080p model. I'm finishing my basement, so I probably won't buy until September or so. Hopefully, I will have some good options at that time. |
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Bronze Member Username: Juan_sardaMiami, Fl USA Post Number: 22 Registered: Jan-05 | Will Blu-Ray DVDs play on current HDTVs. Or will they only play on the up comming 1080p tvs. Does anyone know? Are current 720p HDTVs compatible with the New Blu-Ray DVDs? PDF article on on DVD WARS https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-video/DVD_Article-144514.pdf Below I posted some of the article: DVD formats HD DVD and Blu-ray systems will play current DVDs, but differ in these ways: Data capacity (per layer) Current DVD: 4.7 gigabytes HD DVD: 15 gigabytes Blu-ray: 25 gigabytes Maximum image resolution (in pixels) Current DVD: 640x480 HD DVD: 1920x1080 Blu-ray: 1920x1080 Current DVD: All HD DVD: Warner Bros., Universal, Paramount |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Those of you considering buying a non-1080p TV on the assumption you'll be watching 1080i in its full resolution, bear in mind my earlier post: in order to display 1080i you need 1080 horizontal lines. At 16 X 9 ratio, that means you'll need 1920 vertical lines. No non-1080p will be able to display 1080i in all its splendor (altho the sales people and manufacturer will tell you it's "1080i" compatible (meaning it will accept a 1080i signal and down-convert)). The JVC 61Z786 mentioned above has a native resolution of 1280 X 720 - it'll display ALL signals at 720 lines (it's 720p), regardless of source resolution. Think that's not a big difference? 1280 X 720 = 921,600 whereas 1920 X 1080 = 2,073,600 - more than a million more pixels (125% more pixels than the JVC 61Z786). A 1080p TV will up-convert all signals EXCEPT 1080i (and, eventually, 1080p, when it becomes available), which will display in unaltered 1080-line resolution. With $2,000 1080p HDTVs on the horizon before year end (and the Westinghouse 37" 1080p apparently already available at that price (tho not up here in Vancouver)), personally I wouldn't invest in anything less than 1080p - you're not seeing the picture as good as it truly can be (at least in the case of 1080i)...in my always humble opinion... Check out Best Buy or JR.com for Westinghouse and Crutchfield.com for BenQ 37" 1080p (tho the BenQ continues to be delayed). |
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New member Username: CbesingPost Number: 4 Registered: Feb-05 | I just got off the phone with Samsung and they said that the 1080P units will start shipping in late July or early August starting with the west coast and moving East. I was ready to get the new 720P but she saw both side by side and said that there was no comparison between the two. I am going to wait and compare myself. For another $500 or so, it seems that the 1080P sets are the way to go... |
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Bronze Member Username: Pilot53Post Number: 26 Registered: May-05 | Need 1080P I agree with you. However, the picture is so good on my 61Z786 that I just dont see how it could be that much better at 1080P at 13 or 14 feet away. All of the HD shows on cable and the newer DVD's look so good, I just dont see how they can make that much of a difference. I guess I would need to see them side by side to tell. The 61 inch JVC 1080P will sell for over 5K with delivery and an extended warrantee. It will take a few years before there is any real quantity of 1080P programming. By then the cost of the TV's will come down a lot. Then I will buy one. Pilot53 |
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Silver Member Username: Mr_lynchSeattle, WA Post Number: 776 Registered: Sep-04 | I've seen the 70" 720p JVC side by side with the 82" Mitsubishi 1080p set. Both were playing Discovery HD (1080i signal) and the difference in PQ was NOT very noticable unless you got closer than about 6ft. From a viewing distance of 10-12ft and farther out it was very difficult to disern between the two sets. Until we start seeing true 1080p content, there does not seen to be a good reason to pay the extra premium a 1080p TV will command. With no HD disc standard decided on and a format war looming, it could be some time before we see any reasonable support for 1080p. |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 20 Registered: May-05 | Mr. Lynch, With all due respect, that's not really a fair comparison, a 70" 720P set vs. an 82" 1080P set? I would be willing to bet that if both sets were the same size, you would notice a difference. Try comparing the Sony Qualia 006 70" 1080P to a 70" 720P. Also the difference would be even greater with a 1080P signal instead of the 1080i. |
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Silver Member Username: Mr_lynchSeattle, WA Post Number: 777 Registered: Sep-04 | HD- They had to 70" Sony 1080p set, but it was either sold or moved because I do not see it on the floor anymore. At Best Buy I've also compared the 37" Westinghouse 1080p LCD with several other 35"-42" 720p Plasma and LCD sets and I just do not see a difference with a 720p or a 1080i signal. Near my work Microsoft set up a display containing several Media Center PCs. 2 were hooked up to 720p Plasma sets, and 1 was running a true 1080p signal to a 1080p Sharp LCD. The 2-3 minutes video clips playing were absolutely incredible, with the 1080p display showing far more detail than a 720p set could produce. The only problem is that these short tech demo clips are some of the only 1080p content available. A 1080p set will be the way to go down the road, but until there is more content why pay the extra premium for something you can not take advantage of. The money I saved this year by going with a 720p display will more than be enough to purchase a 3rd generation 1080p display in a few years. |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Content: For those of you who are gamers, note that the Sony PS-3 has a native resolution of 1080p... If your computer is able to do 1920 X 1080, you can compare 720p to 1080p yourself at: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/content_provider/film/ContentShowc ase.aspx You'll also notice a bunch of movies available in 1080p (i.e. T2 Judgement Day Extreme Edition) via DVD. Also, here's a quote from the Blu Ray consortium: "Sony today unveiled the final specs for their next-generation PlayStation 3 (PS3) video game console, which yet again confirms that the PS3 will adopt Blu-ray technology to meet the high requirements of 1080p HD, the standard resolution for games and movies on the PS3." |
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Bronze Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 60 Registered: May-05 | Need 1080p, Excellent post! Great link! Thanks! |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | Actually, Need 1080p, your math is a little off on the 1080i to 720p comparrison, and you are wrong when you say: "A 1080p TV will up-convert all signals EXCEPT 1080i (and, eventually, 1080p, when it becomes available), which will display in unaltered 1080-line resolution." First of all, 1080i, as in 1080 interlaced does not show all 1080 lines of resolution at one time, and therefore is really only displaying half that amount with each pass. 720p or progressive is displaying all 720 lines at once which, supposedly provides a smoother picture. When you do the pixel multiplication, basing your calculations on half of 1080 (540) you will see the difference in pixels is negligable in the grand scheme of things, with a smoother picture. As far as 1080p upconverting signals goes, You have to factor in the fact that a 1080p set has to fill in the missing pass from a 1080i signal. Therefore, it will definitely have to upconvert a 1080i, as it would a 720p, or any other lesser signal. |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | BTW, somebody may have already posted this article, but here it is anyway: http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-5798551-1.html?tag=hdtvworld.addtl |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | You're incorrect in assuming that a 1080p display only shows 540 lines of a 1080i broadcast at any one time - all fixed-pixel displays are progressive, all the time. A 1080i signal displayed on a 1080p TV will show 1080 lines with every refresh - in fact you mention this in your last paragraph. There isn't really any "up-converting" going on - rather than drawing every other line with each refresh, the TV simply draws ALL the lines with every refresh, replacing the new lines of the interlaced signal but maintaining the old lines from the previous pass. You're still seeing over 2mio pixels vs. less than a 1mio on 720p. As an example, I'll use brackets to represent "old" lines. I'll demonstrate 4 refreshes. A 1080i broadcast will broadcast the lines as: A: 1,3,5,7,9... B: 2,4,6,8,10... C: 1,3,5,7,9... D: 2,4,6,8,10... A 1080p TV will display as (and I'll start with the 1st refresh): B: (1),2,(3),4,(5),6,(7),8,(9),10... C: 1,(2),3,(4),5,(6),7,(8),9,(10)... D: (1),2,(3),4,(5),6,(7),8,(9),10... So altho only every 2nd line is new with each refresh, you're still seeing 1080 lines every time. A 720p TV does not display 540 lines every other refresh when receiving a 1080i signal. Think about it: if a TV with less than 1080 lines were to show 540 lines with each refresh, the picture would be bouncing up and down - you can't simply replace line 1 with line 2 - line 2 belongs BETWEEN lines 1 & 3. The 720p TV will display 1080i as 720p, therefore it needs to convert 540 lines into 1/2 of 720 lines, or 360 lines. It then proceeds as in the 1080p example above, so you're left with a display of 921,600 pixels (720 X 1280) vs. the 2,073,600 pixels of the 1080p display. You're right that you'd only see 540 NEW lines with each refresh on a 1080p TV showing a 1080i signal, but you're still seeing 2,073,600 pixels (and 1080 lines) EVERY FRAME... You're right that a progressive SIGNAL should provide a smoother picture, but if the signal is interlaced, the problem's at the source. A 1080i signal will ALWAYS look better on a 1080p TV than a 720p TV. A 720p signal should also look much better on a 1080p, but that's really a function of the up-conversion algorithm used, since the set has to come up with 2mio + pixels based on just 922K of input pixels (altho presumably a 1920 X 1080 display can be set to display 720 X 1280 when encountering a 720p signal). Hope I haven't made this too convoluted :-) |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | I think we are just misundstanding each other. I'm not saying that a 1080p set will only show 540 lines of a 1080i signal. I am saying that if the source signal is 1080i, it will have to be upconverted to fit the native resolution of a 1080p set. What I am trying to point out is that a couple of posts ago, you said "A 1080p TV will up-convert all signals EXCEPT 1080i" and this is not the case. Even if you refer to the CNET article I posted above, they refer to the Sony Qualia set saying: "The set was fed a 1080i signal but upconverted it to 1080p." The point is that unless a 1080p set is fed a 1080p source, there needs to be some conversion to fit the native resolution. I also never said a 720p set would display 540 lines with each refresh. A 720p set, like a 1080p set must convert the signal to fit its native resolution. At the end of the day, because we are talking about fixed-pixel displays, whatever signal is fed into the TV will have to be converted in some way to fit the sets native resolution, unless the broadcast is in that resolution. |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | There is no "up-conversion" to be done to a 1080i signal on a 1080p TV - the number of lines, both vertically and horizontally are the same on both the source and the display, it's just that a 1080p TV will display 540 NEW lines every refresh. The lines are displayed in all their original glory and splendor... |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | Sorry, but they don't have the same frame rates, so some kind of deinterlacer has to interpolate the data and create new information, based on that interpolation. You can also check out this article: http://news.designtechnica.com/talkback47_page2.html The writer's picture is in it, and he looks like a geek, so he must know what he's talking about. He states: "So we'll take what we can get: 1080i and 720p upconverted to 1080p..." There's two articles referring to the "upconversion" of 1080i to 1080p for you. |
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fx Unregistered guest | Need 1080p, Please give up, you are mistaken and it is obvious to everyone but you. A 1080p display paints 1080 lines every cycle. It line doubles and interpolates every scan since it only has 540 lines of new data for each scan. xvxvxvx |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 21 Registered: May-05 | TDawg, There is no up-conversion going on between 1080i and 1080P. I don't care what the geek in that article states. It's just like comparing a 480i (standard DVD) to a 480P. The only difference between the two is how they are scanned onto the screen. In a progressive format, the full picture updates every sixtieth of a second. In an interlaced format, half of the picture updates every sixtieth of a second. This accounts for the smoother film-like picture that progressive offers. Progessive scans the lines of the screen, starting from the top left of the screen, scans to the right, and when it reaches the far right end, it drops straight down to the row below and scans from RIGHT to LEFT. When it reaches the far left of the screen, it drops straight down to the next line and scans LEFT to RIGHT. And so on and so forth... You were right in that interlace scans all odd # lines, and when it reaches the bottom of the screen, it starts back at the top and scans all even # lines. Another thing about interlace is that every line is scanned from left to right. That means that when the scanning reaches the far right of the screen, the scanning will not resume until it goes back to the far left of the screen again. This a very inefficient process. This is why progessive appears smoother. It's basically operating at twice the frequency, doubling its efficiency. Bottom line, a 1080i signal still possesses the resolution of a 1080P signal, but it takes twice as long to display one full frame, which is why progressive is better at displaying fast moving images. |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | I think what we have here is failure to communicate. In this case, the problem seems to be your definition of "upconversion". Simply stated, it takes more data to display a single frame of 1080p than it does to display 1080i. That data has to come from somewhere, and I (and it would seem some industry writers) call that process "upconversion". I'm prepared to admit when I'm wrong, and learn something new, but show me. If you've got a source, tell me where I can find it. I've given you two, and I think CNET and to a lesser extent Designtechnica are pretty reputable. |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 22 Registered: May-05 | TDawg, Read the same link you posted above, the third paragraph down "What about 1080i, you ask? That format--the former king of the HDTV hill--actually boasts an identical 1,920x1,080 resolution but displays the images in an interlaced format (the i in 1080i). To cut to the chase, it "paints" the odd-numbered lines of resolution on your screen, then alternates with the even-numbered lines--all within a fraction of a second. Progressive-scan formats such as 480p, 720p, and 1080p display all of the lines of resolution sequentially in a single pass. Ideally, progressive-scan makes for a smoother, cleaner image." http://www.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-5798551-1.html?tag=hdtvworld.addtl There is no extra data coming from anywhere. All the data is there, it is just displayed at twice the rate and held on the screen longer. Maybe that is what you meant, and I'm not trying to start a war here. If some reviewers are calling it up-conversion, then they are technically wrong. The resolution between 1080i and 1080P is the same. The difference is in how the image is scanned. |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 23 Registered: May-05 | Here is a link that I found that illustrates the difference between interlaced and progressive. It's really very simple. The entire screen is scanned in half the time. If images were to never move on the screen, you would be hard pressed to notice any difference between interlaced and progressive. BTW, my definition of up-conversion is taking a lower resolution and scaling it to a higher resolution. (480P to 720P) Unfortunately some of the writers of these articles think that changing an interlace signal to a progressive signal is up-converting. As long as the resolutions are the same (480i to 480P or 1080i to 1080P) de-interlacing would be a better term to use to prevent any confusion. http://www.easthamiltonradio.on.ca/ProgressiveScan.htm |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | fx: While I read your post with amusement, I'm not too clear on what your point is; if you're arguing that a so-called "1080i TV" will produce a better picture than a 1080p TV from a 1080i source signal, you have all the creativity of a senior bureaucrat... A 1080p receiving a 1080i signal, as mentioned in my previous post, ALWAYS displays 1080 lines, only 540 of which are NEW. What a line doubler does is recombine each 540 lines into a 1080 line pass EVERY FRAME. When I say that 1080i doesn't need any "up-conversion", what I'm referring to is that a 1080p TV does not need to "convert" a 1080i signal to anything - it's shown in its true resolution, i.e. 1920 X 1080. Please see my prior post on how this is accomplished. There is no "interpolation" - if a TV is converting 480i to, say, 720p, then there certainly is interpolation, as the TV has to "make up" pixels where there were no original pixels to accomodate the native resolution of the display, however on a 1080p TV displaying 1080i, there is no need to make up (or guess) what the other pixels ought to display - that information is contained in the previous pass. Where I will agree is where there are algorithms that actively look for motion artifacts by comparing the current pass with the prior pass, and make educated guesses as to what should change in the prior pass. In that case, they alter the information from the prior pass to estimate the impact of the motion. TDawg: Your point is well taken re: the frame rates, however it's not an issue on a display that displays the image progressively regardless of input source. A 1080p TV will display 1080 lines regardless of input/frame rate, etc. (provided the refresh rate is at least 16ms - at 60 frames/second, it'll need to be able to refresh at 16ms to provide all frames without motion artifacts - 60 f/s = 1 frame every 16.6666ms). When you watch a movie in a theatre, it is shown at 24 f/s, however every frame is "doubled" - they show each unique frame twice to eliminate flicker, so you're really seeing 48 f/s. This is EXACTLY what a 1080p TV does when accepting a 1080i signal. Trying to argue that you're seeing "less" as a result is illogical - you're actually seeing more... Don't let the vocabulary fool you - a 1080i signal will ALWAYS look better on a 1080p than any other display. For the people that probably end up on this board, i.e. the average consumer simply trying to understand what the various formats mean and trying to buy a TV that's got the best resolution at the best price and is relatively obsolesence-proof, here's some simple advice: - Never by any TV that has a refresh rate greater than 16ms. If the refresh rate is 16ms, be wary. You're better off at 12ms or less (as an aside, the new FET and SED TVs should have around 1 ms refresh rates. OLED TVs should eventually reach this also (and don't need a backlight)). - 1080p is the ultimate in obsolesence-proofing - it's the highest resolution of the ATSC HDTV resolutions. Regardless of current bandwidth concerns, 1080p will ultimately prevail as a broadcast signal, if only because Blu-ray will be capable of this. - Be very careful of the actual resolution of a TV you are considering - the fact a TV can "accept" 1080i or other formats DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL DISPLAY IN THOSE FORMATS. There is a Toshiba CRT TV that claims to be HDTV but can only produce 540 lines - that's a scam if ever there was one...a 1080i signal becomes 270 lines per pass! - There are a whole host of 1080p TVs coming to market before year end ('05) at or around $2K USD. Always find out what the native resolution is, and if it doesn't say 1920 X 1080, don't waste your money. A few months ago I went into a Sony Store and asked if they had any 1920 X 1080 TVs. The salesman told me that was a "goofy resolution", that he hadn't heard of that before and didn't believe such a thing was possible, and would I be interested in a $20K TV (which was only capable of 720 lines!). Most salesmen have no clue what they're selling or what the ATSC standards actually include...do your research on the internet from a variety of sources - I've seen TVs advertised as "1080p" that can't do better than 768 lines. - Be very wary of people (like fx above) that mistakenly purport to know what they're talking about. Those who think they know everything are annoying those of us who do ;-) - Make sure the input plugs included in your TV can accomodate 1080p when this format becomes prevalent. Look for DVI-D inputs (preferrably multiple DVI-Ds if you intend to use a computer on it as well). There are plug formats now, like HDMI and HDCP, that are actually copyright protection schemes. You'll need these too, since the broadcaster can prevent any non-HDMI/HDCP receiver from displaying their content, altho a bypass will emerge in time - what I hear of is a plug that will fit between the input line and the receiver line that will convince the signal that the receiver is compliant, after which you can do what you want to the signal. - As a personal opinion only, I'm skeptical about DLP - there are too many moving parts (the 2 million micro-mirrors and the constantly spinning colour wheel). Also, it seems to me that (like all rear projection TVs) they only look their best when viewed perfectly straight - alter the viewing angle and the picture degrades substantially. - Don't settle for 720 without at least seeing 1080p - you'll regret your decision in less than a year when your neighbours spent half what you spent to get double the resolution you're getting. - The purchase of a decent true-HDTV is meaningless if you don't have appropriate source material - find out the cost of the HDTV box or satellite system in advance, including the monthly subscription fee. TVs with ATSC tuners can pick up "over the air" HDTV signals, meaning you won't have to subscribe to anything (meaningless in my neck of the woods due to the mountains - EVERYONE has cable or satellite here...). There's my 2 cents worth, and, as always, in my most humble opinion... |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | PS: HD Fanatic: Couldn't have said it better myself (tho I'd take many more paragraphs to do so!);-) |
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TDawg Unregistered guest | Well Need 1080p and HD Fanatic, I get your point, and agree with pretty much everything your saying (I'm not trying to be a troll, I swear). I think the problem is me getting caught up in the terminology of "upconversion", as well as not expressing myself very well. I understand that there may be some benefits displaying a 1080i signal on a 1080p tv because of the common lines of resolution. I'm just saying that the material displayed will not be in its original format, which may cause problems, or not. we'll have to wait and see. I cetainly understand the difference between progressive scanning and interlacing. It just seems that a lot of writers keep refering to current HD formats being upconverted to 1080p. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Here is another, btw: http://www.guidetohometheater.com/thomasjnorton/305tjn/index.html That said, another potential problem I keep reading about is the ability of these sets coming online to accept a 1080p signal. I think I read somewere that the Samsungs only take it through a computer port and not HDMI. I think I read something similar about the new Toshibas too. I'm not sure, I've read so much on this stuff that my brain is starting to melt. |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | TDawg - you're absolutely right - it's needlessly and utterly confusing at this point. Not sure about Samsungs and Toshibas - no time to check right now, but here's a link to the owner's manual for the Westinghouse 1080p 37" LCD - check out page 7 (the 9th page in Adobe) where there's a diagram and explanation of all the inputs: http://www.westinghousedigital.com/support/downloads/uMan/37w1uMan.pdf The DVI1 (that's a "one" not an "I") input will accept 1080p and is the standard 20 pin slot. I'm guessing (tho my cable company is shockingly ambiguous about these things) that an HD box will have that as an output option. The DVI2 slot will accept up to 1080i input, which is good enough for current broadcasts. It's also the standard 20 pin slot. I also notice it warns against setting a refresh rate that exceeds 60hz on your computer when running at 1920 X 1080 as it may result in "permanent damage to the HD monitor" - good to know. Here's a good link explaining what the various DVI cable formats are about: http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/dvi_info.html Interestingly, a DVI dual link cable can support up to 2048 X 1536! Gives you an idea where computer monitors will be heading... An aside about the Westinghouse - note it has NO TUNER - you need a cable box or HD box or satellite connection to get any sort of signal. Smart idea by Westinghouse to eliminate this and cut down costs, since the vast majority (if not all) will not be looking to pick up terrestrial HD signals (or SD signals, for that matter)... I'll check into Samsung and Toshiba later on today... |
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Bronze Member Username: Juan_sardaMiami, Fl USA Post Number: 26 Registered: Jan-05 | Coming soon Samsung 1080P http://www.wholesaleconnection.com/productDetails.aspx?product=7701&refer=1 Also article about 1080P, link below http://www.cedmagazine.com/ced/2004/0604/06e.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: Juan_sardaMiami, Fl USA Post Number: 27 Registered: Jan-05 | Update on Samsung 1080P https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/new/144674.html |
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Bronze Member Username: Juan_sardaMiami, Fl USA Post Number: 28 Registered: Jan-05 | Massive 1080p Mitsubishi 72-inch WD-73727 ($5,799) ships in September. http://www.cnet.com/4505-6484_7-31385984-2.html?part=ecoustics-cnet |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 27 Registered: May-05 | Coool. Thanks for the links! |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Took the plunge and ordered the Westinghouse 37" 1080p LCD today - should arrive in 10 - 14 business days. Etronics charged me $3,157 CAN ($2,480 USD), which includes shipping, customs & duties and all taxes - they quote an all-inclusive price for international orders, so no nasty customs surprises when the order arrives... Will wander down the road to the cable company and pick up an HD box later this week. Will let you all know how the TV performs as soon as it arrives and I can test it out - will try HD, computer and video games and report back on each... 10 business days = 14 days = 336 hours = 20,160 minutes = 12,009,600 secs, each one suddenly longer than the last ; - ) |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 18 Registered: Jun-05 | We sell this set at Best Buy (about 2300 bucks US) and though the resolution is impressive the contrast ratio is pretty low when compared to some of the other LCD sets on the market now, and VERY low when you put it up against the new Samsung LCDs which are presenting a stunning image at 3000:1 contrast ratio. I'd be interested to see how the refresh rates stack up as well. Many gamers are going for this set specifically to get ready for the X Box 360, I hope they will be able to utilize it to both the TV and the game system's fullest potential, there will be some unhappy people if it turns out the TV and Game unit will not play nice together ;( HS |
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New member Username: SleepyleePost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-05 | Well thanks to all for thoroughly educating or confusing me,,,,,,,,not sure,,,,,,,but could some or all of you confuse me more?? After much exhaustive study, over the last three months while closing on a new home (closed this week, new large living room, will move next mo) decided to stay away from the RCA HDLO165 due to apparent service problems AND the Best Buy controversy with the 162/164 TI 2+/3 chip. Had then decided to get the Panasonic 50" DLP which has the seemingly more coveted older TI 2+ chip. The set is a Special Buy at Sam's Club now. Then I read this forum and thinking I need to do nothing now......while waiting on 1080P...but seems it may be a few years before I can get a 50" for a little over two grand with THAT techonoly, but guess I will take the 31 inch RCA CRT to the new home for now........Any advise/suggestions or additional confusion would be appreciated from one or all........sleepy |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Smurf: I initially tried to get the Westinghouse thru Best Buy but the outlets up here (in Vancouver) don't carry it and the outlets down there won't ship up here... As for the contrast ratio/refresh, the Westy claims 1000:1 and 12ms. Both the 45" Sharp 1080p and the 46" Samsung 1080p LCDs are only 800:1 and also 12ms - I've seen the Sharp and was duly impressed with it, so here's hoping the extra 200 makes it even better. The DLPs have a much better ratio: 2500:1 for the 46" Samsung (720p), but too many moving parts for my liking (the micro-mirrors and the colour wheels), as well as "rainbow" effect. Also, I haven't seen a DLP that looks "right" if you view it off centre - same thing that plagued the old RPTVs. The Westy has separate inputs for 1080i and 1080p, so plugging the X Box 360/PS3 into the 1080p while plugging the HDTV signal into the 1080i ought to work. How has the reliability of the Westies been? Seen many come back with defects? Any complaints / common problems I should look out for? Came pretty damn close to buying the Sharp 45" 1080p LCD, but double the price when SED/FET/OLED are around the corner (well, in a few years, anyway) didn't seem to make sense... |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Larry: If DLP is what you want, try to hold out a little longer - Samsung 56" 1080p DLP with an astounding 10,000:1 contrast ratio should be released any day now, and it's just over $3,000 USD...check this link: http://www.wholesaleconnection.com/productDetails.aspx?product=7701&refer=1 I live in the 2nd densest neighbourhood in North America (after Manhattan) here in the West End of Vancouver, so space is at an extreme premium for me - apartments are tiny here - mounting a TV on the wall gets me a few precious extra square feet!!! Otherwise, the Samsung is a much better TV than the one I've bought, I would think... |
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Unregistered guest | Mr. Smurf, I have a $4200 gift card from Best Buy. I want to get either a 50" plasma or a 60" lcos, dlp or lcd. I am willing to wait awhile if the 1080 is that much better. What sets do you recommend that Best Buys sells in both categories.Best buys seems to price themselves much higher then the competitors ,how is the best way to get them to match competitors prices? |
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Unregistered guest | Mr. Smurf, I have a $4200 gift card from Best Buy. I want to get either a 50" plasma or a 60" lcos, dlp or lcd. I am willing to wait awhile if the 1080 is that much better. What sets do you recommend that Best Buys sells in both categories.Best buys seems to price themselves much higher then the competitors ,how is the best way to get them to match competitors prices? |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 19 Registered: Jun-05 | Currently available are the hlr**67 series Samsung DLPs which would be my top choice of current models. See them here: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp;jsessionid=5H0ZTKMEIF1FVKC4D3KFAGI?id=cat12085&type=page&sc=ALL&qs=samsung+dlp& cp=1&sp=Relevance&mipp=25&uq=samsung+dlp&_requestid=89387 Second to that would be probably the Toshiba DLP, very nice looking set. See it here: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=cat12085&type=page&sc=ALL&qs=toshiba+ dlp&cp=1&sp=Relevance&mipp=25&uq=toshiba+dlp&_requestid=89477 The Only LCOS they sell (so far) is the JVC D-ILA model. See it here: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=cat12085&type=page&sc=ALL&qs=jvc+d-il a&cp=1&sp=Relevance&mipp=25&uq=JVC+D-ILA&_requestid=89598 Nice looking set but I've seen posts about convergence issues, it's fine at the center of the screen but goes out of whack towards the edges. LCDs are available both in projection or Flat Panel. For the money you have I'd beg them to order you the 40 inch Samsung LCD Flat Panel, absolutely gorgeous LCD, best flat panel out there right now. See it here: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7135806&type=product&id=1110265593 746 I have yet to see the 1080 P models on the Smasung DLP so I can't say if they will be worth the wait. With no real 1080 P source to push to it, it could be a while before it's even worth the added expense. By the time there is enough 1080p material to push to it there will likely be much cheaper 1080P sets for less money. I bought a 720P model secure that there will be much more programming for this format for some time to come, years. Going from 480i to 720P is a quantum leap forward already so I'm quite confident I'll be happy here for a few years. I do have to admit though I am intrigued by the possibility of what a 10,000:1 contrast ratio will look like! That is going to make these sets stand out more than the resolution if they can pull it off. As for Plasmas, take a look at the new Philips models with the Ambilight, they are super hard to get, wildly popular. I personally do not like Plasma and don't try terribly hard to show them to anyone. I call them the "big red sportscar" of TVs. The go go older guys with their trophy wives love them and if they've got the jack to blow on a set that will lose it's brightness and contrast ratio in a few years who am I try and stop them. The nice folks that ask questions and actually listen to the answers, them I walk over to the DLPs every time. Seems to be working out well, the sets are flying out of the warehouse and I get many of them coming back to tell me how much they LOVE their sets and to thank me for my help. HS |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Gordom111: See some of the prior posts re: 1080p - a 1080p TV (1920 X 1080) is necessary to view 1080i in all its splendor without any downconversion, and a 1080i signal will display in 1080p (all signals will). It's not necessary to have a 1080p SIGNAL to benefit from a 1080p TV... 1080i signals: CBS, NBC, PBS, WB, UPN, HBO, Showtime, Discovery, others. 720p signals: ABC, ESPN, FOX |
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Leeeeeo Unregistered guest | Anybody find the Mitsubishi 52" 52627 model in Southern Cali yet? I can't find it at any store. |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Warning about ordering from e-tronics: Having ordered the 37" Westinghouse LCD back on July 4, I still haven't received it and have tried repeatedly to contact e-tronics, with no response whatsoever. Have cancelled the transaction with my credit card company & will try going down to Bellingham and picking one up at the Best Buy. I would warn anyone considering purchasing from etronics or doing business with Comerxia to avoid them at all costs - they have no problem taking your money but don't expect to ever receive anything (including a response) in return... |
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gordom111 Unregistered guest | Mr. Smurf, Are the Samsung 1080's in stouck yet at BB? How do they look ? What should I pay for it? |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 31 Registered: Jun-05 | Haven't seen one yet but I think they are in the computer. We also go the HL-R4266w in the system finally, I ordered one for someone today (sight unseen no less). Basically the same feature set as the 67 series (at least from what the Samsung site says) but in a 42 inch size. I'm dyding to get either one of those sets on demo at our store, I will sell them like crazy!!! HS |
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BB Dude Unregistered guest | Smurf, You have seen the 1080p sets in the computer? I haven't checked in the past couple days. Are you sure? |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 32 Registered: Jun-05 | Yup, when I was looking for the 4266 I saw sets in the 78 series as well!! I was like a one legged man in an a$$kicking contest yesterday and didn't have time to investigate more fully (like were any actually in the Distribution Center or not) but I'll take a closer look today and report in. HS |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 155 Registered: May-05 | I'm starting to find a few 1080P Samsungs out there. No 67" or 71" sizes yet. The R xx68's and R xx78's have the exact same specs. The 68's are the floating screen and the 78's are not. The 88's are peds and available only in the 56 inch size. http://www.electronics-expo.com/product.jsp?x=HLR6178W&zipz=11001 http://www.onecall.com/ProductDisplay.mpt?ProductID=27207&FEID=130&PMNID=838 http://www.crutchfield.com/S-tU0HsGTs6Aj/cgi-bin/prodview.asp?i=305HLR5078 http://www.preferredphoto.com/product.asp?id=sahlr5668w&l=DigitalSaver&ds_ref_ke y=CAJHFGCOBCOBCDIDJD http://datavisioncomputer.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/bestprice.d2w/report? prrfnbr=1249625&site=PRGB&sgname=2005-07-11-06.42.24.921001 http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php?masterid=8990649&search=hlr5688 |
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BB Dude Unregistered guest | Smurf, Are you on the West Coast? I'm in the midwest. No sign of the 68 or 78 series over here still today. -BB Dude |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 35 Registered: Jun-05 | I'm on the East Coast (Florida) and I was mistaken about the 68 and 78 in the computer. There were a bunch of old item numbers still in there that I just glanced at in passing and assumed were new SKUs. Return to your homes, nothing to see here. HS |
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GORDOM111 Unregistered guest | Mr. Smurf, My local BB HD TV sales expert told me today that BB WILL NOT be carrying any of the new Samsung 1080 sets or for that matter none of the manufacturers 1080 sets, say it ain't so !!!! If it is, then the only other sets that impress me in my price range is the new Phillips 50 inch plasma and the clearance Sony 50 inch plasma which may already be sold out . Do you have a preference or any other sets you like? HELP |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 38 Registered: Jun-05 | I'm thinking they might be wrong or BSing trying to make a sale on something else. BB already carries two 1080p sets, a Sharp Aquos LCD and the Westinghouse 37 inch LCD is also a 1080P set. I had someone tell le they heard that BB was going to stop carrying projection sets, about a month later we got in no less than 4 brand new models. Heard the same on the Samsung 4266 and yet there it is available in our warehouse. Just wait a bit, the things have only just started to ship. They might want to wait a bit to sell more 720p models before they start with the 1080p models. They should not worry, unless they can somehow magically come up with a 1080p source to push to it nobody is going to see any difference anyway! HS |
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Anonymous | Sound Advice - Boca Raton, FL - HLR5678W due in first week of August... |
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Bronze Member Username: FfbPost Number: 16 Registered: Jan-05 | i too am waiting for the 1080's sets . sound advice in miami has no idea . they want to sell the sony qualia . period. not ,many takers ,i think. |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 170 Registered: May-05 | It's my understanding that the 1080I HD format has all the lines of a 1080P format signal. It's just scanned or drawn by the interlaced method instead of the progressive method. This would mean that most networks, which are presently broadcasting in 1080I, should deliver a fantastic picture when converted to progressive scan by these new 1080P native sets! |
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Wet Coaster Unregistered guest | Mr Smurf - see many prior posts on this topic - you need a 1080p TV in order to see the entire signal from a 1080i broadcast - anything with less than 1080 lines cannot produce 1080 lines (which seems obvious to me, but then I don't sell these things for a living...). FYI's post is correct. Hope you're not telling your customers otherwise... |
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Bronze Member Username: Justme123Post Number: 52 Registered: Mar-05 | Sears website is showing the Mitsubishi 61" 1080p set for sale now. If they are actually in stock or not, I have no idea. Has anyone got any information on the JCV FH series sets due in September yet? Any links are appreciated! |
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Anonymous | Here's the thread from below. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-video/141040.html |
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Bronze Member Username: Justme123Post Number: 53 Registered: Mar-05 | Thanks, pretty thin. Looks like they turned into a G model thread. |
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Gordom111 Unregistered guest | Checked with Sears yesterday and it is not in their warehouse yet.BB will have stock in the next 2 weeks as I checked with them also and it shows on their computer but also no stock. Isuppose both places will have them about the same time.Has anyone seen the new Samsung 1080's? |
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Gordom111 Unregistered guest | Checked with Sears yesterday and it is not in their warehouse yet.BB will have stock in the next 2 weeks as I checked with them also and it shows on their computer but also no stock. Isuppose both places will have them about the same time.Has anyone seen the new Samsung 1080's? |
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blake Starr Unregistered guest | why would anyone buy a 1080p television? Unless you plan on using a huge computer monitor, it is worthless for the next 2 years until the fcc makes everyone switch over to hi def, and then it will be another year before they think about 1080p |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 43 Registered: May-05 | blake, If you have been reading this thread, then you would learn that the only way to take full advantage of a 1080i signal is with a 1080 set. There are already many stations that broadcast in 1080i. So, even if broadcasters never transmit a 1080P signal, a 1080P set will de-interlace the signal to a progressive signal. |
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Naxx300ZX Unregistered guest | I Work at Best Buy and i am waitin on the new 1080p from JVC. From the reviews i have read, this looks like the best way to go since i am gettin a HDTV for PS3 and XBox 360. |
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Bronze Member Username: Justme123Post Number: 54 Registered: Mar-05 | blake, for those of us with limited seating space, 1080 lines means you can sit closer to a bigger screen. |
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fx Unregistered guest | "So, even if broadcasters never transmit a 1080P signal, a 1080P set will de-interlace the signal to a progressive signal." Actually it means no such thing. It will simply line-double a 1080i input. It will not create new data out of thin air, it will double and interpolate displaying 1080 lines in a progressive format. xvxvxvx |
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Anonymous | fx, Perhaps you didn't mean to use the definition "line-double". Actually, line doubling is a form of upscaling, which is not taking place. None of the 1080 lines are being duplicated by a 1080P set. They are simply scanned or drawn in progression as opposed to being drawn odd lines first then even lines interlaced next. But, you knew that. I agree that the 1080I signal is not actually being "de-interlaced to a progressive signal. Perhaps converted would have been a better choice of words. I still followed what he meant. He didn't say anything about creating new data out of thin air, either. The data is all there, all 1080 lines of it. Only the scanning format is altered. You knew that too, though. |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Well, after much anxiety, frustration and selected curse words, I finally received the Westinghouse 37" 1080p LCD. What an ordeal - it was only with the involvement of the Director of Consumer Services at Comerxia (the firm that handled the financial part of the transaction) that I finally received any info on the status of my order. Took one month to the day to receive. Anyway, picked up an HD box and hooked everything up last night - wow! Programs broadcasting in 1080i look absolutely amazing! I found myself watching CSI, a program I ordinarily cannot stand, for the entire hour by virtue of the fact my eyes were glued to the spectacular detail. The SD programs are no more impressive than on any other TV - altho they display in 1080 lines, the upconversion doesn't seem to add anything of note. I haven't noticed any motion artifacts, however I'll try some video games on it later today and see how it holds up with a ton of movement on the screen. Also, have yet to hook up my computer - you can use the entire monitor as a computer screen or use your computer in the PIP or PBP. Will try that over the weekend and report back. One complaint I do have is that the manual isn't comprehensive whatsoever - they include the bare minimum info to set the thing up, however a lot of info on calibrating these sets is available online. For now, am very pleased with the set. More to follow. PS: If you're considering the Westy, bear in mind that it is a MONITOR - it does not come with any tuning capability - you'll need a cable box or satellite box (which, unless you're planning to pick up over-the-air HD signals exclusively, I'd imagine you'd have anyway...). |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | FX & Blake Starr - the topic of why you need 1080p to see 1080i in all its magnificent splendour has been covered ad nauseum in prior posts on this thread...try scrolling up and starting from the beginning - you'll find at least 4 or 5 explanations...You're not, by chance, BB salesmen, are you??? ;-) |
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fx Unregistered guest | Just because it was covered above does not mean it was covered correctly Ms Need 1080p. Here is one link as to why most all of your ramblings are incorrect: http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/reality.htm Now for the below link I request you first read, digest then understand before you ramble anymore about "true 1080p". http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html xvxvxvx |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 51 Registered: May-05 | fx, I used the word de-interlace because I did not want to stir up any confusion about conversions, up-conversion, down-conversion, or scaling. I am well versed in the way this stuff works. I have studied electronics in college for over 5 years. I read the article that you posted. (hdtvexpert) Whoever wrote the article sounds like a total pessimist that wants everyone to believe that 1080P is not worth buying and never will. If 1080P is truly not worth buying, and the picture does not look any better than a 720P set, than I will not buy one. I have a suggestion for you... you buy what you want and I will buy what I want. I think we have ran this topic into the ground long enough now don't you? People are going to buy what looks good to them. |
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Anonymous | fx Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society? |
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fx Unregistered guest | "I have studied electronics in college for over 5 years. " Congratulations, I have been a design engineer for 30 years. I agree everyone should purchase what looks best to them. I disagree with posting incorrect information that might sway others who think a 1080p display is going to look like a view from a picture window. xvxvxvx |
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New member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 10 Registered: Apr-05 | On certain programs my 1080P DLP set looks like I'm looking through a window and you can just reach out and grab an object. |
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Plunge Unregistered guest | Does anyone know if this would work on tv mentioned above? http://www.japan-direct.com/cartitem.asp?prodid=578 This site even sells the discs to go with it. |
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Anonymous | Guess he told you Mr. design engineer! That article is pure bullsh!t! Stating your opinion is one thing. Insulting people with your arrogant condescending attitude is quite another. |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 11 Registered: Apr-05 | Plunge, wouldn't it be better to just wait for the Blu-Ray players to be intoduced next year. They will be much, much cheaper than the one in your link. And if your really in a rush you can buy an HD-DVD player in the 4th quarter to use until Blu-Ray comes out in the US. Assuming they will still be introduced in the 4th quarter. Toshiba plans on having one for under $1000. If they are introduced and there are some good movies initially, I'll probably get one. Although HD-DVd is only going to output 1080i, which is fine since my 1080P dlp set only accepts up to 1080i on the HDMI input. |
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gordom111 Unregistered guest | what do you have |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 12 Registered: Apr-05 | A Samsung HL-R6168W. |
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gordom111 Unregistered guest | where and how much? did you buy an extended warranty? |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 13 Registered: Apr-05 | I got it from a Powerbuy at the AVS forum(www.avsforum.com). You can look in their rear projection section for the price info. The Powerbuy thread is at the top of the Rear Projection section. I also got an extended warranty that covers it for a total of 5 years, and 5 years for the screen, and 3 years for bulb protetction. |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Ms FX: I agree the topic has been beaten to death, however I'm a little shocked that after 30 years of engineering, the notion that a TV needs 1080 lines in order to properly display (i.e. without any conversion) a signal consisting of 1080 lines (be they interlaced or progressive) hasn't occurred to you... The content issue is a thoroughly beaten dead horse too: Sony PS3 will operate in 1080p, as will movies on Blu-ray: "May 16, 2005 - Sony PlayStation 3 To Feature Blu-ray Drive Sony today unveiled the final specs for their next-generation PlayStation 3 (PS3) video game console, which yet again confirms that the PS3 will adopt Blu-ray technology to meet the high requirements of 1080p HD, the standard resolution for games and movies on the PS3. "We want to pack everything in today and future-proof this as much as possible." said Kaz Hirai, President and CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment America." The article's mention of the "1080p" DLPs not actually being 1080p is correct - they do indeed use a wobulator and a 960 X 1080 micromirror array (which is why, aaronwt, you cannot input 1080p into your Samsung)...some pretty dubious marketing by TI (and the manufacturers who use their chips) to claim 1080p... |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 14 Registered: Apr-05 | Wobulation has nothing to do with accepting 1080P on the HDMI. If that was the case then their 720 dlp sets that are wobulated with a 640x720 chip wouldn't accept a 720P input.With the 1080 wobulated chip it produces a 960x1080 image every 1/120th a second. So it is able to produce a full 1080P picture every 1/60th a second which is 60 frames per second. You can input 1080P just through the vga. The reason you can't on the HDMI is because one of the processing chips that the HDMI input runs through will not accept 1080P. The VGA input doesn't run through this chip so it will accept 1080P on the VGA. The problem with 1080P on the vga is to get the proper timings. I've read some people have been able to get it to work using their PC as an input. But I'm using an iscanHD scaler and so far I haven't figured out the 1080P settings to get the vga input to accept a 1080P signal from the iscanHD. |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | You make a good point about the 720p using the wobulated chip, and I stand corrected (altho really what's happening is it's displaying V640i, in the sense that at no time are all vertical lines displaying at once). It seems to me, tho, that if it is displaying a half-frame every 120th of a second, then it's displaying a full frame at 1080 every 1/60th, meaning it's showing a 1080i signal at 1080p anyway (for argument's sake), so I would think accepting a 1080p signal would actually be LESS (or at least equal) work for the chip... My (admittedly limited) understanding was that an analog VGA plug's max realistic capacity is 1024 X 768 @ 60Hz for short lengths and much less as you get longer...can a signal from your HD box/Satellite at 1080i make it thru the VGA? When you mention the timings, do you mean the refresh rate? Will 59 and change work? My 37" 1080p has 2 DVI inputs, one of which accepts up to 1080i while the other can take up to 1080p. As an aside, I can't believe there's a technology known as "wobulation"... ; - ) |
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Anonymous | aaronwt, When you press your information button on the remote in tv mode do you see a 60hz refresh rate along with the lines of resolution? |
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Bronze Member Username: Pilot53Post Number: 39 Registered: May-05 | I have a client who sets up viewing rooms for a big advertising company. They have offices all over the world. My company was remodeling the rooms in their offices in Los Angeles, installing new lighting, communications, etc. We were finishing one of the rooms last Wednesday. The company has about 40 of the new JVC 61Z786 units in cabinets. The seating for th viewing is from 11 feet to 16 feet. Some big shot had someones new 1080P unit in to compare the picture quality between the two. This unit was supposed to be a top of the line rear projection unit. I do not know what type, and there was no big logo on the unit, so I have no clue who made it. The big shot and my friend both said it was a 1080P unit. The content we were watching came from my friends computer. I was told the content was 1080P. He was able to have both RPTV's display the same picture and video at the same time. I was lucky to be there at the time, and got to watch as they evaluated the difference between the two. My perception was that up close, like up to 5 or 6 feet away (too close to watch the RPTV's) you could tell the difference. The picture was a little smoother, the colors were the same, the detail was slightly better. I do not know how either the JVC or the other RPTV was set up internally. Back at 12 feet, none of us could see any perceivable difference between the still pictures or the videos. At 16' were the same results. They played a DVD (Spiderman 2) and there was absolutely no difference in picture quality at all, and the JVC handled the fast motion better than the 1080P unit. Instead of waiting for the 1080P units, I bought the 61Z786 unit in June. I now feel very vindicated. Pilot53 |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 47 Registered: Jun-05 | I went to (shudder) Sound Advice today and they were just setting up the 61 inch 1080p Samsung. It was separated by one set (a Mitsubishi) from the 5067 and at about 12 feet I noticed some difference in picture brightness and a bit more snap in the picture over the 67 series. There was a difference but I'm not convinced it's a 1000 dollar's worth of difference. Both sets looked great, I felt VERY sorry for the Mitzu, it looked horrible between those two sets. All in all I'm glad I went with the 67, we watched Spiderman 2 on HBO HD last night and both my wife and I gasped at several points at how amazing the picture was. No complaints here and absolutely NO buyer's remorse after seeing the 1080p set. HS |
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Anonymous | Anyone know when we unfortunate Canadians can expect to see some 1080P models for sale this side of the 49th parallel I'm looking specifically for the Samsung HLR5078, but even the "older" HLR5067 (1080i) in the states has some nice features that our HLR5064 doesn't have. Anyone have some insight? Why the difference between Samsung US and Samsung Canada? |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Only 1080p available in Canada (at least Vancouver) at the moment is the Sharp 45" - overpriced at about $8,400 CDN. I had the Westinghouse 1080p 37" LCD shipped to me from NY - total price, including taxes, shipping and customs/duties was $3,100 CDN. Surprisingly great TV, given the relative price disparity to other 1080p TVs, and you won't have 2 mio moving mirrors or spinning colour wheels or rainbow effects to worry about - lots of moving parts to go wrong in the DLPs. Also, the depth is about 2" (except for the centre, which is about 4"). The 1080p LCDs can accept (at least mine can) a 1080p input, which is important if you're contemplating a Sony PS3 (default rez = 1080p) or Blu-ray movies in the future (the latest "1080p" DLP chip is actually 960 X 1920 and uses "wobulation" to simulate 1080p. All the ones I've come across so far will not accept a 1080p input). Not sure how close you are to a border, but Best Buy stocks the Westinghouses in the Excited States (tho not in Canada). Just don't listen to anything the salesman tells you - they have a shockingly poor understanding of all things electronic... |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 50 Registered: Jun-05 | One thing you might have listened to if you had spoken to THIS Best Buy Salesman is how unreliable the Westinghouse lcds are. The prices are great but we get many of them back within 30 days due to glitches and outright failure. The picture quality is also not so awesome. They are not quality merchandise and I do not recommend them. Hope you have better luck with yours. HS |
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Anonymous | For those in Canada waiting on the 1080p sets, just got a call from my dealer here in Ontario. My 6178 Samsung is in and ready to be delivered. |
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Bronze Member Username: Tombo777Post Number: 48 Registered: Jul-05 | Seems the arguments are getting into the realm of the "phile." There is such a thing as "biological stops" in technology. There are audiophile types who claim to hear the difference between 20Khz and 45Khz FR or Minute differences in THD and are willing to pay twice as much for SPECS. When the difference is "measured" (or heard and described with terms like "air" and a "breathing." Hardly measurable terms and soley in the ear of the beholder. Some claim to hear the difference between 24 bit and 48bit recordings and describe the result as "sheen" and "transparency." But cannot otherwise in a BLIND test discern those differences. I believe visual description will bear the same result. Can one really see the difference. Someone who paid $5000 will certainly "see" the differnce over a $4000 TV. Biolologically in the computer world it is impossible to see anything over 70FPS as different or smoother yet those computer "philes" will swear they can see 115FPS and will pay up to it becasue the makers of the cards have run into the "biological stop" as is done in technology fairly easily and have to sell pie in the sky. There are those who buy specs. Thats all there is too it. They "assume" it will be better and it IS..if only on paper. But that is more then enough for them. Then are those who buy biologically and trust their own eyes and ears. When they see no improvement they STOP and make that purchase and never have buyer's remorse nor do they feel they are missing something. If everyone did this there would be no $3000 amplifiers. I an beginning to belive reading these threads video "perception is going the same way. There are those who HAVE to have 1080P although there are published reports of the idiocy of such a move especially at a premium right now (or maybe ever) by those who are way more technically savy then they. There are also published reports to the contrary opinion (I suggest one digs deep into the source of those)as reflected here as well. The bottom line is can YOU see a difference or HEAR a difference? IF not WHY in the world would you pay for something unrealized? |
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Anonymous | or Minute becasue Then are those I an beginning to belive these threads video savy then they those)as reflected It appears that your english teachers hit your "biological stop" when it comes to spelling and composition. You made some valid points here, but not with display technology. To every non-impaired viewer, 1080 progressively scanned lines of resolution will always look better than 720P lines, especially on larger display areas. More is better when going bigger. |
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Bronze Member Username: Pilot53Post Number: 41 Registered: May-05 | Up close. |
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New member Username: BltbltPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-05 | Just ordered the 6168. I intend to hook up a CD player, a DVD player, and a surround sound system. Any suggestions on the cables and which connections are best for each component? |
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chairmanoftheboard Unregistered guest | Have to say about a question near the top of post. The 2 digital cables COAX or Optical have ONE important difference. A Coax can actually couple the 2 devices together creating an audible buzz or hum, it's rare but true. The Optical will not pass electrical current and won't cause such a problem. Use the cheaper COAX, which is really just an RCA cable, but a lot of people go spend $50 when they could use what's in the junk drawer. If you can here a problem change to optical. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1487 Registered: Sep-04 | Posted by Need 1080p The 1080p LCDs can accept (at least mine can) a 1080p input, which is important if you're contemplating a Sony PS3 (default rez = 1080p) or Blu-ray movies in the future (the latest "1080p" DLP chip is actually 960 X 1920 and uses "wobulation" to simulate 1080p. All the ones I've come across so far will not accept a 1080p input). I just ordered a Samsung 6178 from Sound Advice and was under the impression I was set for the future. If the 6178 only accepts 1080i does that indeed mean that it will not be able to take advantage of the 1080p resolutions offered by the PS3 or Blu-Ray? Just how "important" is the ability to accept a 1080p input? Need 1080p? aaronwt? anyone? I've been waiting nearly three years to purchase an HDTV. I have no problem cancelling the order and waiting a bit longer for something that will fully support Blu-Ray. -Fishy |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 15 Registered: Apr-05 | That is not the norm for a 1080P to accept 1080P by the HDMI. The brand new SXRD Sony sets coming out shortly will not accept 1080P over the HDMI input. It might not even accept it on the VGA input. The manual doesn't list 1920x1080P for the VGA input. The Samsung at least specifically lists 1920x1080P for a VGA resolution that you can input. I haven't heard of a 1080P rear projection set that will accept a 1080P input overe the HDMI. Not even the $13K Qualia will. I'm sure this will change by next years models, but it's been announced that HD-DVD will only output 1080i and Blu-Ray is expected to follow suit. And the PS3 won't be released in the US until Fall 2006 so by then the next generation 1080P sets will be out. I just know I will be enjoying my 1080P DLP set right now. I can always sell it and get another set in a few years. |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 246 Registered: May-05 | "does that indeed mean that it will not be able to take advantage of the 1080p" A 1080I signal is a 1080P signal that's scanned differently. Your 1080P tv will convert the scanning method of any 1080I input to progressive. Set your sat or cable box to output 1080I. Set your future HD gamebox or HD DVD to output 1080I. All will be fine. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1488 Registered: Sep-04 | Yeah I guess it wouldn't be smart for technolgies such as Blu-ray not to offer 1080i output. I noticed that the 1080p Samsungs also have a firewire input(Dnet). If HDMI will be limited to 1080i resolutions will there be future technologies that utilize the IEEE1394 interface? or is that interface limited to 1080i as well. After reading up on Dnet in the 6178 manual the technolgy looks pretty intriguing. Seems like having the TV act as a hub which could control and display information about a number of daisy chained 1394 devices would be pretty cool. Will Blu-ray be one of these devices? Guess I ought to do a Google. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 254 Registered: May-05 | From what I have read the 1394 ports are for controling component use. |
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Silver Member Username: Tombo777Post Number: 203 Registered: Jul-05 | >>>>A 1080I signal is a 1080P signal that's scanned differently. Your 1080P tv will convert the scanning method of any 1080I input to progressive.<<< There are NO input signals nor will there be anytime soon of 1080P.1080i is NOT a 1080P broadcast signal. There are NO 1080P inputs on any of the "1080P" TVs. They have to CONVERT the interlaced signal to progressive.There's That ugly word conversion again. Now ask why Standard TV looks so terrible! Those TVs better have GREAT deinterlacers.LOL Broadcasters have no intention of moving to 1080p60. They are trying to change the HDTV requirements to DTV so they can do 480i in digital and have the bandwidth available to support more channels. Same with cable and DBS. If 1080p was available, 1080p inputs would be desireable.Where is the source of that? HDMI and DVI will not carry 1080p anytime soon because of copyright and some other issues.user Most people cant even tell if they are being feed 720p to 1080i on a 1080p set. People cant even tell the difference between DVD's played 480p and 480i on their HD sets right now. 1080p doesn't mean anything when playing back DVDs as well. Read read read........ |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 62 Registered: May-05 | What he was saying is that if you take a 1080P set, which has a native resolution of 1920 X 1080 and feed it a 1080i signal which also has a resolution of 1920 X 1080, it will display the full resolution plus it will display it progressively. The reason why standard TV looks bad on most FP displays is due to the scaling. Converting an interlaced signal to a progressive signal does not use scaling, and therefore you cannot compare the two. How well the picture looks will be dependant on the quality of the set that is converting to progressive. I agree that 1080P has no affect on playing back DVD's. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make there. Maybe you were trying to point out that most people are going to be watching DVD's for some time to come, and a 1080P set will offer no advantage for DVD's. That would be a valid statement. Bottom line is that a 1080i signal should look better on a 1080P set than on a 720P set. I do not think anyone would disagree with that. |
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Silver Member Username: Tombo777Post Number: 207 Registered: Jul-05 | I do not think most people can tell the difference between 720P and 1080i. I think only the very discriminating who watch TV with an eye oon the wow factor and not the content will notice the slightly better 1080P output. The stations broadcasting in 720P will have to be upconverted. How will that end up looking? |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 63 Registered: May-05 | I must fall into the minority category then, because I can easily distinguish between 720P and 1080i. 720P is better for watching sports and fast action, but the resolution is definately not as crisp as 1080i. I have observed this on 4 different HD sets in my home now. From the information that I have, most HD broadcasters (at least in my area) are using 1080i. A good 1080P set should be able to up-scale a 720P signal with little degradation. A good analogy would be how a 480P signal from a DVD player looks on a 720P set. Some sets upconvert better than others. |
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HDorbust Unregistered guest | I thought only NBC was broadcasting in 1080i. I am pretty sure that CBS is broadcasting 720P, maybe ABC also. |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 17 Registered: Apr-05 | CBS, PBS, WB, UPN, and NBC are 1080i. ABC and FOX are 720P. |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 18 Registered: Apr-05 | ESPN is 720P. HBO, Showtime, Universal HD, HDNet, HDnet Movies, StarzHD, and TNTHD are 1080i. So most Networks are 1080i. |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 19 Registered: Apr-05 | And Discovery HD is 1080i also. |
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fx Unregistered guest | "A 1080I signal is a 1080P signal that's scanned differently. It drives me nuts when I see people write things like this. This is not true at all. In fact it is so obviously untrue that you cannot even explain why this is so to people that write things like I quoted above. xvxvxvx |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 66 Registered: May-05 | Semantics! The relationship between a 1080P and 1080i is no different than comparing 480i and 480P period! The resolutions are the same. One is scanned at 30 fps and the other at 60 fps. Geez fx, don't be so critical of everyones grammar. Not everyone is as perfect as you! |
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Silver Member Username: Tombo777Post Number: 214 Registered: Jul-05 | And as I have read all the 1080Ps released this year use the wobble chip which is not a really discrete pixel count. The true 1080Ps chipped sets have yet to be released. |
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fx Unregistered guest | More like complete misinformation than semantics HD. As I wrote IF you cannot even understand the true difference, You should at least try. Here is an example that may help. 1080p is generally displayed at 24 fps, 1080i is displayed at 60 (actually 59.94) fields per second or 29.97 fps although both are 1920x1080 in resolution. There must be some conversion between the two, not simply scaling the 540 lines of data and displaying it all at the same time. My question to you would be: Where does the extra 5.97 fps of data from a 1080i siganl go when you convert it to a 1080p signal being displayed at 24fps? Again not semantics at all, just facts. xvxvxvx |
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mtallenca Unregistered guest | Are the new JVC 1080p sets coming out in september using "the wobble" technology or do they have a complete 1920x1080? |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 20 Registered: Apr-05 | THe 1080P DLP sets use wobulation. The JVC sets use LCOS(liquid crystal on silicon)technology. They have a 1920x1080 panel for each color(Red, Blue, Green). |
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Bronze Member Username: Hd_fanaticBoise, ID Post Number: 72 Registered: May-05 | fx, Most theatrical movies shot on film are 24 fps. Video is 30 fps, or 60 fps. To dislpay a 1080i signal, the TV scans all of the odd numbered lines from 1 to 1079, top to bottom. That takes 1/60 second which is defined as a "field". On the second pass it scans all of the even numbered lines from 2 to 1080. That also takes 1/60 second (another field) So it takes a total of 1/30 second to display all 1080 lines of the frame. (a full frame) To display a 1080P signal, true 1080P will scan odd and even lines sequentially from 1 to 1080, which takes 1/60 second to display a full frame. Now your question, Where does the extra 5.97 fps of data from a 1080i siganl go when you convert it to a 1080p signal being displayed at 24fps? 2:3 pulldown technology takes care of that. However, that only works with interlaced signals, so the conversion would take place first on the 1080i signal before converting it to progressive. I'm sure fx already knows this, (being a design engineer for 30 yrs) but to all other s that are interested, 2-3 pull down means that the first frame of film is represented by 2 fields of video.( which is normal) The second frame of film is represented by 3 fields of video (1.5 frames); the third frame of film is again represented by two fields and the fourth frame of film is represented by 3 fields, and so on. In the end, what was running at 23.976 fps is running at 29.97 fps. To summarize, four frames of film become five frames of video... repeat that process six times and 24 frames of film become 30 frames of video. (5*6=30) Now if will excuse me, I need a drink! |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Re Tom Bong: "There are NO 1080P inputs on any of the "1080P" TVs. They have to CONVERT the interlaced signal to progressive." Suggest you do your research before commenting. My 37" 1080p Westinghouse LCD has 2 DVI inputs. DVI 1 supports up to 1080i while DVI 2 supports up to 1080p. Of course being an LCD, it has the full 2,073,600 pixels of 1920 X 1080 - no wobulation taking place. Seems silly to keep repeating this ad nauseum when simply reading some of the posts, Mr. Wong, would serve to educate you on some of your misunderstandings, but here you have it yet again: "Sony today unveiled the final specs for their next-generation PlayStation 3 (PS3) video game console, which yet again confirms that the PS3 will adopt Blu-ray technology to meet the high requirements of 1080p HD, the standard resolution for games and movies on the PS3." That, dear sir, is directly from the Blu-ray consortium. Anticipated release date in NA for the PS3 is spring '06. "HDMI and DVI will not carry 1080p anytime soon because of copyright and some other issues". No clear idea what you're talking about here - DVI cables currently on the market will carry 1080p, and why would there be copyright concerns exclusive to 1080p and not to 1080i??? You can get a 6 ft HDCP-compliant 1080p DVI cable for $40. People come to this board in hopes of getting some guidance on the complicated topic of HDTV and I would humbly suggest you take your own advice and "read, read, read" before commenting - your ignorance does the readers of this board a dis-service. |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 56 Registered: Jun-05 | It's pretty clear that TB's agenda is not really positive in any way. It's all about bashing and speading fear through misinformation. He's a troll pure and simple, he gets off on the attention, even negative attention, he gets from his repeated rants. Trying to reason with him is pointless, he'll ignore any facts or reasoned arguments and just set the needle back to the beginning of his malfunctioning victrola. Rinse, lather repeat. Let him waste his breath, anyone with half a brain will do research outside these narrow confines and see him for the imbecile he his. Those who don't probably deserve what they'll get if they listen to him. His evidence is anecdotal at best and woefully flawed. |
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Silver Member Username: Tombo777Post Number: 259 Registered: Jul-05 | >>>One thing you might have listened to if you had spoken to THIS Best Buy Salesman is how unreliable the Westinghouse lcds are. The prices are great but we get many of them back within 30 days due to glitches and outright failure. The picture quality is also not so awesome. They are not quality merchandise and I do not recommend them. Hope you have better luck with yours.<<<< Good luck with your Westinghouse. The All KNOWING Smurff has spoken... I have to agree though as painful as it is. WESTINGHOUSE????Did'nt they make refridgerators years ago? Seems anyone cen get into the TV game lately? Im not sure I'd run out and buy the bleeding edge LCD just so I can play Playstation Games. LOL But there you go. It's a toy for you and that explains it. My agenda is to prevent those who care from spending thousands of dollars on unreliable technology......like Smurf tried to do with his "Don't buy Westinghhouse" comment. Only I say don't buy DLP and RPLCD, I have not come out against Plasma or real LCD in the same manner. I do not read of the myriad of issues in the plasma and LCD forums. Not ONE burn in issue with plasma! Go figure! YEs let me waste my breath. Those who see my point will take it and consider it. Those who don't will do what they are going to do..........Just like your buddy who bought that "lowly" Westinghouse justbecasue it claims to have 1080p inputs so he can play with his toys...Amazing. |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Helpful Smurf: Agree with your comments wholeheartedly - Mr. Bong is glowing example of the adage "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"... I too had my doubts about the Westinghouse, however spending $2K US for a 1080p TV seems a worthwhile gamble (particularly since it's cheaper than most of the 720p TVs). It's been a month now, and no complaints whatsoever - the picture is brilliant, the colours vivid. I bought the TV, Mr. Bong, so I could receive a 1080i signal and display it in its true resolution - see several prior posts on this topic. Not sure what your agenda really is, but suggest you double the dosage of whatever medication you're on - I understand there are quality pharmaceuticals currently on the market that can help you with your negativity... |
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Silver Member Username: Tombo777Post Number: 260 Registered: Jul-05 | >>>>spending $2K US for a 1080p TV seems a worthwhile gamble<< That has to be the most idiotic staement I have ever read on these boards.....$2000 for a worthwhile gamble? MOst people cannot see the difference casually. But folks... Therein lies the definition of AN_AL RETENTIVE.....and just to play Video Games LOL. Amazing. And you say I need meds? I have read the posts...."I normally don't watch CSI But I just had too, got lost in the clarity!!!LOL!" Now Thats pretty funny. I see the maunufacturers have been successful in brainwashing the few gullable an.al rententive kids to part them from their money..GO Westinghouse?!! I do not post my opinion for the technologocally an.al retentive set. I post for the average normal person who wants value on all fronts....not just Playstation LOL or XBOX 360.......Go play now. |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 60 Registered: Jun-05 | I for one am glad for the comments on the Westinghouse, they are a great value and it's nice to hear some positive feedback on it. My perceptions might well have been skewed by the return rate on them and blinded me to the success stories like yours. Thanks for the input, 1080i or other wise  HS |
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Silver Member Username: Tombo777Post Number: 262 Registered: Jul-05 | It 'appears' the new 1080p Sammy's support "Film Mode" (3:2 pulldown) with ONLY 480i input (Page 63 in User Manual)......Yeah I read. These are apparently very cheaply constructed sets.LOL They are not even close to being real 1080P sets if this is true. Yet there are those who are flocking to them. Im not arguing against having 1080p inputs. But are they so important that someone buy a set (Westinghouse) that is inferior in other ways but happens to have 1080p over HDMI to play games WHEN and PS3 finally comes out (and IF their promise of 1080P output is part of the end equation). Those who jump on the train too early don't get to the longer destination without paying for another tcket sooner then they would like. Ask FYI who seems to buy new DLP TVs every year to keep up. LOL |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | HS: It's only a month, but have my fingers crossed ;-). I'll post periodically with an update of my experience with the Westinghouse - perhaps others who have purchased a 1080p can do the same? |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | FYI: Panasonic announced Monday production of 65" 1080p plasma will begin in Sept for Nov release, expected price around $9,100 (compared to $11,500 for the current 65" 768p). Meanwhile, Toshiba/Canon announced Tues that trial production on their SED TVs began - expected commercial release 1st half of '06. As bright as CRT, 1/3 power of plasma and <1 ms response time. OLED TVs are being touted for '07, but the lifespan at the moment is only about 2,000 hours. Cheaper and less complex (and brigher and faster)than PDP and LCD, which will hopefully translate into lower prices... |
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fx Unregistered guest | HD Fanatic, That was an excellent description of 2:3 pulldown technology, bravo! I was sure you knew the answer but I wanted others to understand that the 1080p signal will have scaling and interpolation when being converted from a 1080i film transfer. It is often suggested that there is no conversion which I realize you know is not always true. Again well done, xvxvxvx |
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New member Username: PlasmatvmanPost Number: 6 Registered: Aug-05 | http://www.plasmahouse.com has some good resources on 1080i HDTV |
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Silver Member Username: Tombo777Post Number: 267 Registered: Jul-05 | Having 1080p inputs is better than not having them, if only because you can upgrade to an external scaler/de-interlacer. If you are planning on using the set with a computer, then 1080p input is definitely important, although you don't necessarily need to accept it on HDMI, a VGA connection that does 1080p should be sufficient, and there are at least some of these sets that will accept 1080p on VGA but not HDMI. If you're planning on using the TV primarily for viewing HDTV, DVD and Blu-Ray, then you really need to ask yourself how likely is it that you'll be purchasing an outboard scaler/de-interlacer. If the TV does proper de-interlacing and 3:2 pulldown internally, you probably wouldn't see any benefit from one unless you're an EXTREME videophile. |
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Yawn Unregistered guest | Whoopteedoo! |
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gordom111 Unregistered guest | Isaw the new Mits. 108O BEAUTIFUL!!! When BBhas them I'm there. |
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Need 1080p Unregistered guest | Wholeheartedly agree, Yawn: given that this thread is entitled " Release Date for 1080p models" I get unlimited amusement from the 15 and under set (read: Tom Bong) who have limited understanding (and probably have a 27" CRT) but unlimited access to this thread... gordom111: do you mean 1080p? If so, and you bought it, what the picture like? |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 21 Registered: Apr-05 | here are some pics of my Samsung 1080P set www.aaronwt.com/interest |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 69 Registered: Jun-05 | Looks sweet Aaron, what's your viewing distance from the set? Notice you were upgrading from an old CRT monolith, Tom Bong is going to cry. HS |
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Silver Member Username: Tombo777Post Number: 285 Registered: Jul-05 | Ooooh Ahhhhh, Ooooooh Aaaaaaah...! Now isn't that the real reason some would post a picture of their friggin TV on the internet......Jeeeze...I have always wondered what one of those looked like....LOL And Smurf patronizingly reacting like one girl looking at a picture of another's baby!!!!!! Yeah Im crying alright...Tears of laughter. I never cease to be amazed here. |
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I smell a bonghole Unregistered guest | No...you just never cease. |
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Bronze Member Username: AaronwtNorthern VAWoodbridge Post Number: 22 Registered: Apr-05 | My viewing distance is around 10 feet. |
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Naxx300ZX Unregistered guest | Hey Yall, I work at Best Buy and i just talked to the JVC rep today, they sayin that they are gonna push back the 1080P series. So the new HF series wont be comin out the end of this month :-(. And if yall are lookin to get a tv, best buy is havin an REALLY GOOD interest free this Sunday. Hint Hint |
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gordom111 Unregistered guest | hey Naxx300zx and helpfulsmurf, Will I be able to eventually buy the Mitsubishi 1080 sets at BB or will I have to use my gift card at Magnolia? |
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Bronze Member Username: Helpful_smurfPost Number: 70 Registered: Jun-05 | Rumor has it that Magnolia will be the place for the 1080s, none of them have shown in the computers for Best Buy yet. I understand they are already at Magnolias on the west coast. |
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