I thought I'd step up in technology with the Sony we 50' LCD but now I hear the Mitsubishi Diamond Series Rear projection is a much better PQ/TV overall. I know it's a larger cabinet, but is rear projection still the way to go over LCD?
anonymously
Unregistered guest
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you may want to wait for future lcos or the dlp 3 chip, most of which will be displaying at a resolution of 1080p, which is what the upcoming blu-ray dvd will output (as will as other formats and future broadcasts).
Anonymous
Posted on
Ellis-
I almost purchased the Mitubishi Diamond Series rear projector with it's big 9inch guns. Wow! The PQ is amazing....
I decided not to purchase it because the huge cabinet was going be like a spaceship in my living room & the $5k of owning a RPTV???
I went with the KF50WE610 Sony Grand Wega III & I just love it. My only regret is not getting the 60" model.
As far as waiting on 1080p model TV's coming out later this year - I think we're 3 to 5 years away before software is gonna be readily available. They haven't begun to get 720p or 1080i out the door yet!
Do you wait or pull the trigger?
RobW
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Please note that the Sony LCD's ARE Rear Projection, lamp thru 3 LCD's mirrored to screen. I did the 60" Sony LCD and have had no problems over 56 days now (lucky me, see other forum posts) 2 people can easily lift it, 109 lbs. You may want to wait a few months on Sony's to make sure their problems are addressed.
Ellis what are the most important aspects for you as far as picture quality is concerned? because there are definitely gonna be differences between the two. I went with an lcd myself about 4 months ago(I had a 57 inch xbr I sold to my brother)but anyway go with the lcd if you want a sharper picture,no burn in (Important if you're a video gamer especially),easier up keep. On the other hand if black level and better contrast are important to U then the crt rear projector.
GregM
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Don't listen to them Ellis. CRT is the way to go.
LCD claims a sharper image, but that's all numbers. CRTs will do a much better contrast and that makes a difference. What good are 720 pixels when your watching "Batman" and they're all the same shade of dark grey.
And did somebody say something about burn in? With all the complaints about dead bulbs and stuck pixels I can't belive people still bring that up. I wouldn't worry about that even if you a gamer, unless you play the same game over and over again that has some sort of symbol or # constantly left on the screen.
As long as you have the depth your only other advantage of LCD is less reflections, to which I say A)you can always take off the screen and B) Daytime TV sucks anyway
lcd is sharper, funny U don't seem to mind about 720p when u're talking about hitachi? contrast is not gonna do u all that good if u can't get as much light output from a crt without cranking up the contrast causing A)faster aging of the phosphers,B)damaging the crts causing them 2 yellow,C)having 2 get the crt's cleaned once every 12 to 18 months for best performance and D)convergence. and yes daytime tv sucks.
GregM
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Don't get me wrong in my opinion I would never buy an LCD RP personally, but if one was given to me I'd take the Hitachi
GregM
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However in friendly response A) after the phosphers wear out I'll simply use my other CRT I bought with the money I save. B)causing them to yellow? haven't really seen that, but easily adjusted w/ Hit color Management I'd guess or Mits service menu C)Idon't think you need it every 18 months but I'll do every 36 while LCD customers buy there bulbs and replace there pixels. D)Convergence? Where's the problem, 6 year old girls play video games that are harder and use more buttons.
As far as 720P goes, all I said was I liked it better than 788P. And yes if you watch something like "Batman" or a real good scene is the LOR2 opening scene with the big grey mountain. If you have 4(2x2) pixels all playing the same shade of grey how much better would doubling those to 16 (4x4) do.
By the way anyone reading this should now the real lesson here is Daytime TV sucks.
Hudson
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Chubby,
So, 567DLP at roughly 4300 tax in plus a stand at 500. or Pioneer Elite at roughly 3200 tax in both with a 5yr warranty which includes a yearly calibration/cleaning.
I have no space issues, room can be dark or light, I will have Direct TV, Sony HD200 sat rec'r and an antenna for local HD feeds... I don't watch tv during the day (golf on saturday / sunday and sunday morning hangover tv are the exceptions).
Fyi, if i could wait for another 5 months I probably would and buy the new dlp then... but i can't....
Honestly I can't lie 2 U 4 the price the elite is the better value, No doubt . I don't want anyone 2 think that I hate rptv crt I still love them they do give a more film like picture IMHO, but 4 me the benefits of lcd or dlp far outweigh better contrast and blacks. They just don't have the drawbacks of crt rptv's. I resisted 4 a while man but can't deny the light output,sharpness,easier maintainance . With crt most people don't realize (because most salesman don't tell people about the upkeep in owning a crt,especially if it could potentially stop them from making a sale) that crts have 2 be cleaned every so often because dust settles on the lenses and that if your contrast is set 2 high U could damage a crt in less than a minute. Also if the contrast is set 2 high U will definitley burn an image into the screen . I can't tell U how many times I've been in a store and someone buys an open box crt rptv and it's been burned it most people just don't notice it .Once U put up a full white picture though it's there 4 the world to c especially 4X3 bars on a 16x9 set. If U know about these things then U can make a better decision .If u keep your contrast between 15 and 20 percent u won't have burnin' but how many people actually do that with crt rptv's. The only reason I know is I used to work on some in the stockroom of a store I worked in (I wasn't supposed 2 but I taught myself and I learned about them, I also went in the service menus to converge some of them). Which brings me to one more point The auto convergence while really good is still not as good as a thourough manual convergence if the tv has an auto and manual convergence then you're fine. sorry 2 go through all of that but most people know. although the pioneer is a better value i'd say the samsung bcause the contrast is pretty good a little better than most lcds tv's if that's your bag,all that has 2 be done is replace a lamp and it's back 2 factory spec's, crts fade overtime U can have 'em replaced but u'd b better off buying a new set because of cost. I definitely say samsung their easier 2 calibrate they just don't track the grayscale as well but it's no big deal. Once U see that HD picture u'll be glad U did!
OH yea one more thing Greg what I meant by yellowing is that they literally burn and turn a slight yellow. I'm just telling the truth, If U like and want crt rptv's fine. people don't like change but the crt is gonna be a done deal, heck I still hear people complaining about the sound of cd's compared 2 lp's sure lp's are warmer but cd's are smaller, easier 2 manage,no hiss,clicks or pop's . It's basically the same thing here I didn't say a crt was less accurate or that it's horrible but time moves on, like I said I still like crt's but I'd rather have an lcd. I'm not trying 2 make it seem like I know more than U either(that's just in case if your thinking that).the only reason I brought up gaming is because let's face it peole are playing games on their home theater systems and I don't c anything wrong with letting people know about potential problems with crt's .I mean if you're gonna spend your hard earned money on something U need as much imformation as possible, but again if U know about crt's and upkeep U should be fine I personally just wanted something newer and easier 2 take care of and not worry about burn in.
OH yea one more thing Greg what I meant by yellowing is that they literally burn and turn a slight yellow. I'm just telling the truth, If U like and want crt rptv's fine. people don't like change but the crt is gonna be a done deal, heck I still hear people complaining about the sound of cd's compared 2 lp's sure lp's are warmer but cd's are smaller, easier 2 manage,no hiss,clicks or pop's . It's basically the same thing here I didn't say a crt was less accurate or that it's horrible but time moves on, like I said I still like crt's but I'd rather have an lcd or dlp. I'm not trying 2 make it seem like I know more than U either(that's just in case if your thinking that).the only reason I brought up gaming is because let's face it people are playing games on their home theater systems and I don't c anything wrong with letting people know about potential problems with crt's .I mean if you're gonna spend your hard earned money on something U need as much information as possible, but again if U know about crt's and upkeep U should be fine I personally just wanted something newer and easier 2 take care of and not worry about burn in.
GregM
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Wow, I was actually starting to gain a little respect for you but that last post was ridiculous. I almost don't know where to begin. I don't know if this guy has read things by you before and just trusts you, but that was messed up. I guess first your whole attack on salespeople not saying anything to customers about upkeep on crt tvs is way off. Everybody knows, and according to his post this includes Hudson, that salespeople always tell customers about this to try and sell extended warranties. And damage your CRT in "less than one minute." That has no point to it, I guess your trying to say that leaving the contrast on too high will wear down the CRTs faster. Because you could leave the contrast way up there for quite a few years of normal usage before this "damage." And to add icing onto your cake you say less than one minute, a lot of defects like stuck pixels and mirrors take less than a minute to go from bad to good. All this is void anyone if you just explain that you get a better picture by turning the contrast down to about 50 to 70 percent anyway.
"If the contrast is set to high you will definently burn an image into the screen." I don't know if your this guys salesman or what, but thats not right to tell somebody something like that. What image is going to burn into the screen. I've worked in electronics for 4 years and have had two customers tell their old sets have burn in, and seen when at a BB store with burn in.
Then you talk about CRTs wear out over time and aren't worth being replaced like it this horrible thing. You mention how when you replace the bulb on a DLP it's back to factory specs but you forget to mention that before that it's not at factory specs anymore. CRT rear projections last an average of 10 years. Consumer Reports lists that only 5% of Hit or Mit CRT RP have repair problems in the first 5 years.
If you do the math and figure and assumptive 2 replacement bulbs for the TV at a assumingly low $150 each that tacks on another $300 to the sell.
You add in the bulbs and the stand and your at 5100, and you don't even get a 5 year warranty the TV
Chubby what your saying isn't BS but it is very heavily exaggerated reasoning on a technology which has been successful for years now. Burn-in, even if it's there and can't be seen, has not been a significant issue; and after all aren't stuck mirrors which aren't noticable in the same ballpark.
Hudson the best thing you can do is go the store and look at the PQ of these two sets side by side, or if not possible the DLP next to another top CRT, with different signal types and decide if you feel the DLP is the right picture for you.
Personally, I would take the extra money you save, throw in a savings account and ten years from now use towards whatever new or improved technology is out then.
GregM
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Oh chubby, I know your not trying to saound like you know more than me, but this wasn't about having the knowledge, it's about applying it. Sorry if I came off a little harsh.
Sorry but U are most definitely wrong about just about everything u said . It does take less than one minute 2 damage a crt I've done I worked in a store where tv's would get refurbished so I had more than a couple sets 2 play around with and U are wrong about most salepeople I've worked in electronics 4 about 7 years and I've aslo worked 4 sony and repaired a few sets myself. U are definitely incorrect as far as leaving contrast up 4 years without damage just because U can't c it doesn't mean it's not there. crt's last an average of 12 years but they start to loose contrast as soon as u power them up . Like I said most people don't even realize if they have burn unless it's really obvious. If U have the contrast set up bewteen 50 and 70% it blooms . it'll cost U roughly about $1500 dollars 2 replace all 3 crts . mits. keeps ther contrast longer than the other crts over time it doesn't mean it can't be damaged. If anyone trusts U their tv won't last as long as it could. U don't like 2 be wrong but this time u most defintely are. U say burn in is not a significant issue well if U read your operating instructions what does it tell U ,this: that if your tv gets burned in it's not going 2 be replaced under warranty. So whats not right is that u don't have enough experience with crt's to suggest someone leave their contrast up that high. the gun loses control of the electron beam I guess U didn't know that. I don't have 2 read consumer reports becaused I've repaired them hand's on experience . Stuck mirrors are covered by warranty. So maybe U need 2 apply my knowledge sorry If I came off a little harsh. So maybe U need to do a little more reading before u attempt 2 post things that you really don't know much about i'm not trying 2 be harsh I'm serious because u'll cause a whole lot of people problems with their warranties.
Oh yeah let me let u in on a little secret Greg. the limitation in rptv's is the convergence in every tube display the scanning spot is pretty much round so it causes the aperture effect so it takes some time 4 a phosphor 2 reach a certain brightness then in turn u have 2 account 4 a delay 4 the trailing edge of a phospher. thats why most manufacturers include some type of velocity scan modulation to make an rptv appear sharper than it really is in effect creating an overly enhanced picture(lcd's and dlps' don't need this circuit because there not scanning devices. thats why lcd's and dlp's can display one pixel with patterns with hd test patterns and most crt's can't. why do u think they had to come up with hd in the first place because .as sets got bigger the limitaions of rptv's became more apparent. anyway because appeture effect the idea wave form should be in the shape of a line of similar 2 a sinewave, but it's not it's rounded that's why it's not as sharp as lcd's or dlp's . The advantages of crt's is that they are not fixed pixel devices so they can display 480p,720p(if the tv scans high enough so it doesn't have 2 be converted to 1080 I) 1080I in there native rates. lcd's and dlp's are progressive by nature . also lcd's and dlp's do not suffer from flicker since they are not scanning devices.Now when U get into large crt's ( 9 inch totally different ball game but they'll have even less light output) So while most crt sets Ive seen repaired max out at about 1200-1400 lines with HD (depends on the lenticular screen, among other things) they look soft next 2 a fixed pixel display because of the aperture effect. Another reason to keep contrast down is because there is always a trade off between resolution and brightness. I've said it before I still like rptv's but there are limitations other than what is obvious. U also have blue to red color shift in most rptv's, and what I call the crescent moon to the left or right side of the picture more or less visible depending on the contrast setting, but they have gotten better. I've also owned 2 rptv's a kp53xbr200 and a kp57xbr10w that I calibrated myself. Then ocassionaly u'll also have gun drift a consumer cannot fix that (unless they've had some type of experience)it's not something that happens all the time but it happens. There are also limitations with lcd's and dlp's as well which I guarantee you more people know about than the limitations of crt's, because of people that assume they know everything, I don't claim 2 know everything we all learn everyday but every since about 8 or 9am I had mentioned something on a post U made this morning( I said that more pixels make a difference with HD, and lessened the screen door) and u've been chasing me around 2 say something negative about whatever I post that's extremely chiidish ,but that's your perogative . I can't lie and say I didn't get pulled in ,but your post's are so full of animosity I couldn't help myself I felt the need 2 reply, but after this I will not engage in it anymore because this doesn't help anyone that actually wants opinions or recommendations. and I apologize 2 everyone on this forum,and I don't dislike crt's, If I did offend anyone I apologize 4 that as well. I would have continued this post with the other 1 but I had 2 pick my kids up from school.
GregM
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Posted on
You seem to be misunderstanding me in a lot of ways. First I've been in the electronic business for 5 years, but have worked in a small store with some extremely knowledgable staff. I understand 70% contrast is high, but there are a lot of people that are ignorant and you just can't convince them to lower it to 50% because they refuse to believe they can achiecve a better picture that way. But on most sets, unless in a very dim room, I think 25% is too low, but that is irrelevant. My point is your exaggerated and I guess pecimistic slandering of CRTs. First I don't see how you can just say with the contrast set to high you can damage your CRT in less than a minute. Less than a minute starting from when? And after that minute if that "damage" occurs does that mean you need call a repair tech, your using a pretty vague and yet concerning word there.
Next you use the word "damage to describe unseen burn-in. That's a little harsh don't you think. Yes the PQ on a CRT is going to deteriorate over time, that's something fairly well known in the AV world, but that doesn't mean that someone who is still enjoying their 51swx01 has a "damaged" TV set. Most consumers on the market fear burn-in as something that's going to leave a logo in the corner, or their score from a video game, and without leaving those images on for an excessive amount of time, actually until last month I had never realized how excessive it was until a repair tech came and tested a Tosh for shutdown issues by leaving a 2.35:1 dvd on repeat for a over a day.
The point is if said DLPs can have issues with displaying colors correctly, especially bright whites, because of its color wheel you wouldn't think that was right, but in an off sence it is.
Now yes stuck mirrors are covered by Samsung's warranty. But CRT isn't going to burn in the first year anyway unless you really mess up. So again if I say that even after the 1 year warranty the DMD chip can randomly become damaged in less than 10 seconds time, I'm probably not far off, but I'm not being far to DLP in the way I phrased it.
Also don't quote me on this one, but I believe it's recommended to periodicly have the lenses and light engine cleaned as well.
So don't think I'm questioning your knowledge on AV, I was merely a little upset at your chose of words in calling a CRT damged because of unseen burn in and variable deteriation. That's all.
Most people would agree with U about the contrast setting that I'm refering 2 would b 2 low,I don't dispute that one bit,It's just not good over the long run 4 crt's. I had constantly stated that I do not dislike crt's and commented on their strong points and especially if someone is familiar with them it's a given, I just stated that it wasn't 4 me anymore. What I meant by less than a minute is 9 times out of ten the contrast on a television is going 2 be set 2 max and if not reduced as soon as it's out of the box it will damage the crt's. If u use a white field test pattern U can see if the crt's are damaged . When they are damaged the white field patern will take on a slighty yellow tint instead of being white, and it is not covered under warranty(because it is a form of burn in). If potential buyers are informed of this they can make a more informed decision about the purchase. U say that you've never seen how excessive it can (burn in) I've been attemting to tell u read my previous post where I said that "the no burn in issue was important if u're a video gamer" when I was posting to Ellis but,U told him "not 2 listen 2 me "Right? most people never see burn in unless U point it out 2 them because it's tougher 2 (In one line U said" burn in was not an issue even if it can't b seen and has not been a significant issue "< It won't be If no one makes them aware of it) c if the pictures are not of a brigther television program or a test pattern, unless it's really bad.I mean U did seem 2 attempt 2 refute everything I said about crt's(and that's fine)so I assumed U knew what I meant? Then U say "that U never knew how excessive burn in was or I guess it could get" when u were describing the burn in with 2.35.1 aspect ratio I assumed U knew that burn in could occur any where across the screen, U did say in your don't listen 2 them Ellis post "not 2 worry about burn in" right?"even if u're a gamer? "and a crt can burn in the first year it depends on the owner of the tv, nine times out of ten most people leave the contrast cranked up or way above 20%(unless it's someone really familiar with them). Then U say I was slandering when all I did was tell the truth(these are facts as a matter of fact if u read the operating instructions in most manuals it will even tell 2 specifically 2 turn contrast 2 a minimum and set brigthness 2 about 50% before doing convergence so the crosshatch doesn't burn into the crt. Setting brightness 2 high can also damage a crt. did I say that crt's horrible?,did I say they were inferior 2 lcd's or dlp's,did I say that lcd's were better ?Non of the above. U constantly repeated problems with dlp's did I refute anything U said about them ?No I didn't. I know what problems are associated with lcd's and dlp's so I didn't feel like I had a reason 2 say anything U were doing that 4 me(honestly U were). In the very begining of my post I said what I thought were the strengths of lcd's and of crt's I never said 1 was better than the other .As I said earlier I just mentioned faults about the technology as U did with dlp and I did not exagerate. Honestly why do U think the light output is so low in movie theaters they don't want to damage the crt most movie theaters put out about 11 2 15 lamberts and most properly adjusted rptvs will be roughly about the same ( the only reason I mentioned that is 2 give U an example of something more tanglble because it's the same technology .What happens when the lights are on the pictures washed out crt rptv's are no different their just reflecting the picture off of a mirror instead of forward at a screen . Crt's are not meant to b overdriven with excessive contrast or brightness. sure U can do it but U're comprimising the life of the tubes and the picture quality which was the point I was attempting 2 make. U say U weren't questoning my knowledge ? "I don't know if this guy has read things by U before or if he just trusts u. but that was messed up". "what U're saying is not BS but very heavily exagerated" "this was not about having the knowledge it's about appliying it" .sounds like U were questioning my knowledge 2 me? ,not 2 mention the don't listen 2 these guys Ellis post? I said that crt was a done deal hitachi closed a few plants last year ( and their the biggest supplier of crts), because they couldn't move any) I didn't lie about that either. I'm not trying 2 b funny but I'm repeatin' what U said 2 me or about me. All of this Because of a comment I made this morning about screendoor and no. of pixels would make a difference with HD.
Hudson
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Posted on
Nice discussion gentlemen.
I went with the Pioneer Elite HDi 53".
Primary reason. Got if for $2600 and no need for the stand. My plan is that it will go somewhere else in the house and in a few years and I will replace with the latest and greatest then...
Pro's and Cons for both sets but the price and color issues (in my eye) finally swayed me.
Now, given my selection is there an optimal setting for things that 1) won't cause my set to self destruct and 2) can get me a little brighter picture for the darker scenes?
lcd= liquid crystal display dlp= digital light projection lcos= liquid crystal on silicone crt= GARBAGE I work in a high end privately owned audio/video store where we carry nothing but the best go check out a properly calibrated sony kdf60xbr950 and then view a properly calibrated crt projection and your opinion will quikly change Mr. Greg M...... For the people who do not know what I mean by properly calibrated it means having the tv literally recalibrated from a certified ISF technition who uses equiptment worth thousands of dollars to set the tv up the proper way not the way these sets come stock with the kelvins (temperature) set extremely high It is extremely important to have these sets whichever you may own dlp, lcd, lcos. crt calibrated properly not only will you see a amazing picture quality you will prolong the life of your set trust me.....
Hudson: Not sure if you're still looking at this thread, but good choice on the Pioneer. Great value at that price. Pick yourself up a Video Essentials DVD... it will help you calibrate your set fairly accurately.