Home Theater
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New member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 1 Registered: Mar-10 | I currently have a 5.1 home theater setup in my living room consisting of a Marantz SR5600 Receiver, 5 Mirage OmniSat Micro Speakers, and a REL Storm III sub. The TV is a 32" Sony CRT. I am going to purchase a new plasma TV (probably a Panasonic TCP46G25) and have it wall mounted. Only only place for the TV is in the corner. The room is 11' x 19' x 7.5' ceilings, however we have a sectional that limits the room to 11' x 12.5". There is not enough room for traditional front speakers so I am considering in- ceiling speakers or a 3 channel soundbar for the fronts. I was going to either use my Mirage speakers for the surrounds or in-ceiling speakers. My question is what would be a better setup? I was also considering a new receiver and a smaller sub (for 95% movies & tv 5% music). Thanks for your help. |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 135 Registered: Aug-05 | Jt welcome, seeing how I'm a fan of marantz if you do go with ceiling speakers make sure they have the tweeter that swivels so you can aim them towards listening position. How far is the main seating are? can you mount the front mirage to the left and right of the display? on side walls..they are very open sounding and center near or on cabinet. Options hear are somewhat limited and I'm not a huge fan of ceiling speakers as fronts unless they are firing straight on like inwalls.,next to display certainly not a fan of soundbars. How about front bookshelves on stands?floorstanders? rears ceiling or mirage on walls are ok too. and speaker wire is important inwall cl2/ft4 rated.,of very good quality http://www.crutchfield.com/p_70314260/AudioQuest-FLX-14-2-14-Gauge-In-Wall-Speak er-Cable-60-feet.html I use these on all my installs they are fantastic! and if I was going with all round ceiling speakers I kind of really like tannoy speakers with your marantz or denon. http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR2310CI-7-1-Channel-Multi-Zone-Connectivity/dp/B002AKKFPS or the model below 1910 or marantz . theaudioguy.ca |
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New member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 2 Registered: Mar-10 | Here is a quick drawing of the layout. The problem I have is there is just enough space in the corner for a 46" TV. Even with a smaller TV there is not enough room for proper front speakers becasue of the window and fireplace. (The best spot for the TV would be above the fireplace but we would have to remodel the fireplace and mantle to do that and it is not in the budget.) I am not a fan of inwall or inceiling speakers either- however I do not know if I have any other options. The 2 Denon receivers you listed are 2 that I was looking at- mainly for the video processing. I just may stick with the Marantz though. I will probably take your advice on the speaker wire. I have noticed the wire can have an effect on the sound with my 2 channel system. Thanks for your assistance- it is appreciated.  |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 137 Registered: Aug-05 | jt where's the equipment going below tv on a cabinet? |
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New member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-10 | Hello Vince, Yes- the receiver, cable box, blue ray, and Wii will be below the TV on a rack. |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 138 Registered: Aug-05 | oh I see not a wide cabinet and inwalls or ceiling speakers with the swivel tweeter could they be mounted on wall next to display on each wall not ceiling? seeing how you don't want to put the mirage on the sides.. or put the ceiling speakers closer to middle of room say 3ft away from display then rears over the couch. still say if you are check out the tannoys cheers jt. |
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New member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 4 Registered: Mar-10 | The main problem is the fireplace. The hearth prevents us from putting a cabinet wider than 36 inches. It also prevents us from being able to install an inwall speaker there as it is brick floor to ceiling, and the mantle is limestone and is too high to mount the TV above it. I have never really liked the Mirage OmniSat speakers for the fronts, especially the center, that is why I am looking to replace them. The setup I have now was supposed to be temporary until we setup the home theater in our basement. I was going to use the OmniSats as surrounds for a 7.1 system and buy a Totem Rainmaker Center to match my Hawk fronts. Anyway my wife and I had twins and I lost my basement room (we have a small house with 4 kids). I needed to move the Hawks up to my bedroom. What I am looking for is a system that can fit in our existing room and provide an enjoyable movie experience for my family. Any additional assistance you can provide is greatly appreciated. Right now it sounds like you think the inceiling would be better than a soundbar (like an Atlantic Tech 4000). I will talk to the dealer and ask about the Tannoys. Thanks Vince, JT |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 141 Registered: Aug-05 | hawks ! you audiophile you or totems inceiling spk sir I wonder though about these orbs on the page on top or sides on the cabinet with center inside..... 36 inch may work and I recently installed these with the marantz nr 1501 reciever and the oppo blu ray..sounds great ... still can't compare with your totems but probably better then ceilings cheers |
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New member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-10 | I really enjoy the Totem speakers I have listened to...Forests & Model 1 Sig as well as the Hawks. I was looking at their inceilings, but do not know if they would be worth it, as they are still ceiling speakers. I will be listening to some Niles ceiling speakers tomorrow at the home of the installer, maybe that will help with my decision. I was looking at the orbs as well- but I do not know how different those would be from a soundbar. They would still only be ~36 inches apart. I am by no means an audiophile- but I do appreciate a nice sounding setup. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 2677 Registered: Feb-04 | . If you guys don't mind, let me throw in here. My vote iin this situation is for a good soundbar/sub setup. First, it would be a much easier setup obviously than in-wall speakers or trying to reuse the OmniSats. Second, you can take it with you, or move it to another room in the future. Third, and most important, the speaker will be much closer to the TV for a much coherent and integrated AV experience. Soundbars have come a long way in a short time (as have in-wall speakers), and I would seriously consider using this alternative particularly with this difficult TV placement. Your diagram illustrates precisely why I loathe fireplaces in TV rooms. I was reading thus review just yesterday: Atlantic Technology FS-7.0 Soundbar and SB-800 Sub |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 142 Registered: Aug-05 | well I never really thought soundbars were good for stereo listenening but if you have a local dealer there jt.. I have heard good things about atlantic tech. spreakers Orb's are shipped through distributer though tough to go by that on my word alone but customer I installed orb says f@$%^^kin awsome let us know |
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New member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-10 | Hello Vince, Which Orbs were installed across the front channels...Mod2? The dealer I have worked with in the past was more for 2 channel and is more of a high end shop. I have been looking for a custom installer to work with and the latest one seems to have more interest than the last two I have been in contact with. The problem is he works out of a home office and he does not stock any gear for auditioning. I guess I will know more after I hear the Niles Ceiling speakers tonight. John, I am not too fond of the fireplace either, but it will cost too much to remodel. I never really considered a surround soundbar, only the 3 front channels. This is something to consider, but I assumed (without doing any real homework) that I would not be happy with them. Also, since it is a corner installation I do not know how the sound would "bounce" off the walls. |
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New member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 9 Registered: Mar-10 | Well I went to the home the installer worked on this evening. I was a little surprised the inceiling speakers sounded better than I thought they would. That being said I could tell the sound was coming from above, and I do not know how much that would take getting used to. I wish there was a way to hear a 3 channel soundbar to compare the inceilings to. I guess I have some additional thinking and possibly auditioning to do. Vince, Can you point out a Tannoy model that has the directional tweeter? Also, how would you describe their sound? Thanks, JT |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 144 Registered: Aug-05 | http://www.audiophileliquidator.net/product_info.php?products_id=8789 sound is tough to discribe but they do have the dual concentric driver open british, toothless hehe clean has a back box I think correct model # http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D270545449354&ih=017&categ ory=47094&ssPageName=mem_guide:2%26 jt I'll know exact model # tomorrow about the speakers above ok. the orbs I installed rears really front were on a cabinet were the single ones with the double center I was kind of surprized at the highs how clean it sounded. if your room is larger go with mod2, won't compete with totems but not bad I say. I wonder if they have a trial look at that they do 30 days there you go, get a nice colour your wife will love them and mount the back on wall facing couch. let us know |
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Bronze Member Username: NencyPost Number: 16 Registered: May-09 | one time you've sure which room to put your home theater system in, you'll need to make out the best location for each component of the home theater system... The major factors that affect the theater experience: > size of the room > Acoustics of the room > light in the room > projection system or large screen television > Location of the screen or TV > Arrangement of the components like DVD-CD-VCD player, tv display unit, projector display unit speakers, seats |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 12 Registered: Mar-10 | When I think British sound I think Spendor...I am intrigued. What scares me about the Orbs is they look a little too much like balls. I have a pair of 2 year olds that can get a little rambunctious. They would need to be mounted high up and at that point would be like the in ceilings. At least I think I decided on updating my receiver to the Denon 2310....unless you can convince me otherwise. JT |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 145 Registered: Aug-05 | that denon good choice and go with the oppo bluray but I have the marantz 7004 blu ray and love it also and 2 channel with custom cardas cables sounds great! those tannoys are worth a listen.. let us know.. vm |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 13 Registered: Mar-10 | 2 channel isn't a priority for this system. I have the Hawks with Musical Fidelity Integrated and CD for that. The 2 channel listening will really only be for background music, probably using an Ipod and radio as the source. I decided on the 2310 for the video processing. It has the same chip at the Oppo- so I thought I could get away with a less expensive blue ray player and use the receiver for the scaling. Am I wrong thinking that? If so then I may just get the Oppo and the 1910 receiver. I am looking for a place to hear the Tannoys- I will let you know. -JT |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 146 Registered: Aug-05 | ah yes same chip anchor bay correct but the oppo sounds slightly better over hdmi then a cheaper bluray not huge but noticable. Go with the 1910 90 watts is plenty for the tannoys or orbs or whatever you decide. 2 zones so run one wire with 4 cables, outside to the backyard from the surround back channels if your not using them,, I'll tell you an inexpensive way to get the remote to work from there without a direct line of site if you want,. funny how fast oppo sells used on audiogon. I'm using 5.1 rca cables from my marantz analog out because I have an old nad reciever without hdmi.. let me know if they sound decent.[tannoys] take care Jt vm theaudioguy.ca |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 16 Registered: Mar-10 | I think I will go with the Oppo. I normally connect the source directly to the TV, but I do not know if I should run multiple cables if using an articulating wall mount. What do you think, connect the Oppo directly to the TV or run it through the receiver? I am still trying to get a listen to some Tannoy's. I have only found 1 local company that carries them- and they do not have them stocked. I was thinking of using the zone 2 for some kitchen/dining area speakers. -JT |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 153 Registered: Aug-05 | nah denons fine and only one hdmi cable to display is all you need jt. its nice seeing that blu master audio square on the denon while playing bluray with dts hd. tannoys are nice but I'm not sure without a demo.. but for ceiling speakers [no choice]you really can't do much better please I like your feedback once its setup. |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 18 Registered: Mar-10 | How different will the Tannoy in ceiling speakers sound from their floor standers? Do they have the same "sound"? I ask because there are some Tannoy floor standers I could listen to. I also need to find a new installer. When I asked him to break down the labor costs he refused and said he could no longer work with me. I will let you know if I am able to audition the Tannoys. Thanks, JT |
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Silver Member Username: MccambleyBREEZY POINT, NY USA Post Number: 770 Registered: Jun-05 | If there is an inwall, in ceiling , on wall speaker that sound better than a floor standing speaker it would be an awesome speaker and most likely expensive. |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 19 Registered: Mar-10 | Casey, I understand the floor standing speaker will sound much better than the in ceiling. What I was looking for was if the Tannoy speakers have the same sound to them. For example: I personally like Totem speakers, however the Hawk sounds quite different from the Forest. Looking at Paradigms I believe they all sound the same- yes the Studio line sounds more refined and detailed than the Monitor- but they still have the Paradigm "sound". (This is my opinion) Are the Tannoy's all voiced the same? |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 156 Registered: Aug-05 | similarities jt ,yes. again caseys right here on this one .. your working with inwalls or ceiling here,,, with a back to it so at least its not sloppy bass.. tweeter sounds like tannoy maybe arenas,,, hey how do the reference paradigm inceiling sound? affordable? tweeter looks like it's angled but I would mate it with say marantz or nad reicever a little more neutral that is recomended. Now why would your installer say that? Maybe because he doesn't know how much time and obstruction is involved,, see if he'll do the install or someone else for day or day and a half flat rate vm |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 20 Registered: Mar-10 | The installer thing has me a little aggravated... When I asked the installer to breakdown his labor he told me it was a day rate for 2 men. I then asked him since it was a day rate the labor cost would remain the same even if I removed installing the kitchen speakers from the quote. He told me no, the labor was for the whole job and if I removed the kitchen speakers it would be less. So I asked him to breakdown the labor cost again, that is when he told me he would no longer work with me. It was a little sudden with no explanation- so I think he was trying to hide something or just did not want the job. Anyway if the installer was unwilling to itemize the labor I do not want to work with him either. The reason I asked the installer to break down his labor costs in the 1st place was because I could not afford his quote of ~$6500 and ~$1300 was labor costs (which might have been a little high for this job- but not that bad). In order to get the overall cost down I needed to make decisions on labor and materials (mostly materials). However the labor cost affected my decision on the materials- especially for the kitchen speakers. For instance I was thinking of ordering the receiver from Dakmart. Is this a good idea? Possibly switching to a 42" instead of 46" television. Changing the speakers, wire, cables, etc. I would probably go with Monoprice for the HDMI cables and save ~$150. Anyway I need to find another installer, they guy who sells the Tannoy is also an installer, but he has not been very responsive either. The Paradigms are probably out of my price range. I think as long as the speakers are well built and not bright they will be fine for this install. No matter how good of a speaker they they are still in ceiling and I will not be completely satisfied with them. Unfortunately I do not have many options. |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1272 Registered: Feb-08 | I am just guessing but my experience with giving quotes, and I am sure there are many different ways to do it, is to quote labor by the hour for small jobs that aren't too likely to cause massive time setbacks (one TV and audio system in one room), and by the job for the bigger projects. I would guess that I do not get my hourly rate (which appears to be a LOT less than your guys rates, I will have to do some thinking on that ) about 30% of the time but am happy to get a minimum amount of money and also be happy to spend the time to do the job right without overly worrying the client as to the time involved. I hope this helps |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 21 Registered: Mar-10 | Thanks Jim. That does help a bit knowing I was not completely out of line. The labor rate calculated to $160 an hour which seemed a little steep to me as well (this assumed an 8 hour day as well, and I expected the job to take less than 8 hours). |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 159 Registered: Aug-05 | Hi , plenty of installers out there JT probably 2 for 100 an hour. stores charge more so stay away from them. Dakmart seems fine b stock though so one year warranty is good., they also sell boston acoustics speakers. one of the best for the buck. I still like aq speaker wires look for a whole roll even 16/4 then you can use one run and split the rears.,[2 each] I'll buy the leftover or your installer shall but they are numbered so don't get jipped in ft., you need probable 250 ft to be safe. Don't go nuts on hdmi pricing, those bostons acoustics I've installed work well with the denon too. dsi465 pivoting tweeter http://www.crutchfield.com/S-IHW1SKXQTQ7/p_065DSI465/Boston-Acoustics-DSi465.html or dsi265 as rears or rectangles dsi460 whichever you can afford. but $6500 On what really? http://www.nextag.com/Panasonic-VIERA-G10-TC-650429677/prices-html tv reciever wire spkers cabinet not by my calulations. could be longer then 8 hours jt. |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 22 Registered: Mar-10 | Thanks for the info. As I mentioned to Jim it makes me feel better knowing I was not completely off base with my questioning his quote. As well as the budget I had in my head for this job (~$3500 give or take). Up until the quote this installer seemed like a good one. About 10-12 years ago I owned a Denon AVR with Boston Acoustics speakers and I liked the sound- not as much as the Totems, but not bad. I think I will look at those BA speakers. This is probably something I should have thought of earlier, but I have kids rooms above the living room. Will the in ceiling speakers be felt in the rooms above? Again, thanks for all the assistance. -JT |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 160 Registered: Aug-05 | felt no heard maybe yes you can dampen a little with soundproof insulation to tame it but you insisted on inceilings with no other choice so sorry ysool http://www.demilecusa.com/Repository/File/Sound_Barrier_Brochure2.pdf and for tv's from me I like the panasonic v-series and the xbr 8 from sony glad to help bro peace vm |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444TorontoCanada Post Number: 162 Registered: Aug-05 | http://www.bostonacoustics.com/DSi465-P49.aspx wow price drop |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 23 Registered: Mar-10 | Thanks Vince. The spray foam looks interesting. I think those speakers will work nice- I love the price. Any idea where I can get those since they are discontinued? Also, for the rear surrounds would you use those or the units with 2 tweeters? -JT |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444TorontoCanada Post Number: 163 Registered: Aug-05 | http://www.4electronicwarehouse.com/products/boston-acoustics/dsi-465.html http://www.thenerds.net/BOSTON_ACOUSTICS.HSi_470_Speaker.HSI470.html?affid=56 replacement above for the 465 you might have to hurry on the order for the dsi465 or go on boston's website and find a dealer then call around the tweeter for rears as long as its kordec soft tweeter whatever you like or can afford,, no need for double tweeter I'm guessing I would go with same all around. vm theaudioguy.ca |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 24 Registered: Mar-10 | Thanks for the information. I did not have any luck finding the DSi465. The price of the HSi470 you sent me was not too bad, so I may look into those a little (I have also seen them on audiophileliquidator, but cannot remember the price). I liked the price of the DSi a little better. -JT |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 25 Registered: Mar-10 | I pulled the trigger on the 2310. Electronics-Expo had a deal I thought was too good to pass up ($570 shipped, authorized dealer). Now I just need to decide on the speakers and find another installer. |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444TorontoCanada Post Number: 164 Registered: Aug-05 | great! |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 29 Registered: Mar-10 | I met with another installer this weekend. He doesn't want to install in ceilings because he says it will be too expensive of an install- he will work with an hourly labor rate and charge for the time spent. He thinks it will take a long time to do because he will need to pull up carpet on the 2nd floor. He thinks I will be better off with a 42" TV with speakers mounted on each side of the TV and the center beneath it. I told him that they would need to be very narrow speakers ~3", so I am not too crazy about that idea. I did see some Canton speakers that are 3.5" wide that may fit...I think they were the CD50 model. I am now leaning towards the Orbs again. How do you think they would sound if all 3 front channels were mounted on the ceiling? Do you know if there is a mount to attach a MOD2 center channel to the TV (on an articulating wall mount)? Thanks, JT |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81United States Post Number: 30 Registered: Mar-10 | Another thing I was thinking was creating my own 3-channel "soundbar" mounting 3 sets orbs below the TV on a piece of wood or metal. That way I could mount the orbs on pivots to angle them and possibly increase the soundstage. Then again I could be better off just mounting them on the ceiling. Please let me know what you think. -JT |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81NH United States Post Number: 35 Registered: Mar-10 | Vince, I pretty much decided to go with the Orbs. I am going to create my own 3-channel "soundbar" by mounting the orbs (Mod1 L&R, Mod2 Center) on 2 pieces of piping and mount it under the TV on the mount (it will be mounted similar to their Boss Floor Stands). The rears will be be mounted on the back wall- 1 in each corner. I received the 2310 and have it setup up with the Mirage OmniSats right now. It sounds alright- but I think the Orbs will sound much better (at least I hope). I am still trying to find an installer- no one seems to want the job. I have a few more to call. I will get an Oppo BDP and I need to purchase a Harmony One and wire in a remote dimmer as well. Any advice is welcomed. -JT |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81NH United States Post Number: 36 Registered: Mar-10 | Vince, I pretty much decided to go with the Orbs. I am going to create my own 3-channel "soundbar" by mounting the orbs (Mod1 L&R, Mod2 Center) on 2 pieces of piping and mount it under the TV on the mount (it will be mounted similar to their Boss Floor Stands). The rears will be be mounted on the back wall- 1 in each corner. I received the 2310 and have it setup up with the Mirage OmniSats right now. It sounds alright- but I think the Orbs will sound much better (at least I hope). I am still trying to find an installer- no one seems to want the job. I have a few more to call. I will get an Oppo BDP and I need to purchase a Harmony One and wire in a remote dimmer as well. Any advice is welcomed. -JT |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81NH United States Post Number: 37 Registered: Mar-10 | Vince, I pretty much decided to go with the Orbs. I am going to create my own 3-channel "soundbar" by mounting the orbs (Mod1 L&R, Mod2 Center) on 2 pieces of piping and mount it under the TV on the mount (it will be mounted similar to their Boss Floor Stands). The rears will be be mounted on the back wall- 1 in each corner. I received the 2310 and have it setup up with the Mirage OmniSats right now. It sounds alright- but I think the Orbs will sound much better (at least I hope). I am still trying to find an installer- no one seems to want the job. I have a few more to call. I will get an Oppo BDP and I need to purchase a Harmony One and wire in a remote dimmer as well. Any advice is welcomed. -JT |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81NH United States Post Number: 40 Registered: Mar-10 | Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 12:57 am: Jt the orbs should sound good with the denon and the oppo so no worries and you will eventually find an installer.. which wire jt audioquest? For the wire I will probably go with the audioquest- but this depends on the installer as well. The last guy I spoke with wanted to use the wire he always uses b/c he liked that brand....I am think he got a good markup on that one. -JT |
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Silver Member Username: Vm8444TorontoCanada Post Number: 171 Registered: Aug-05 | buy it beforehand jt |
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Bronze Member Username: Jtay81NH United States Post Number: 44 Registered: Mar-10 | I need to put the home theater plans on hold- for probably a couple months. I need to get a new roof, which is eating away my budget. I will let you know when I resume. Thanks for all the help. -JT |
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