Help me setup my Home Theater please
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 1 Registered: Jun-08 | Ok let me start with what I have first. HDTV: http://reviews.cnet.com/projection-tvs/sony-kf-60we610/4505-6484_7-20885079.html Receiver: http://www.intl.onkyo.com/products/av_components/dvd_players/dr-s2-2/index.html Speakers: (5 speakers and a sub so 5.1? ) http://www.intl.onkyo.com/products/speakers/speaker_packages/sks-ht235/index.htm l I also have a PS3 I just purchased 2 cables from www.monoprice.com. I got a 6' HDMI to DVI cable to go to my HDTV. Because the tv is 3 years old so there is no HDMI input. I than got a 6' optical toslink cord. I am thinking that I probably should of gotten a second one but we will get to that soon. Here are some pictures of what the room looks like: http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/1704/12848911cm7.jpg http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4488/23249559xi6.jpg http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6783/16570168km8.jpg http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6123/57711940mp3.jpg As of right now the 2 rear speakers are not hooked up. We had someone give us an estimate on snaking wires through the walls but was told it would be pretty pricey. With the economy so crappy right now that is just not an option. I am trying to get this all setup decently but cheaply also. It was suggested to me to use something like this to run the wires: http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat_id=315&sku=43028&cm_mmc=AdWords-_-07-G OOD-_-flat+speaker+wire_873971961-_-flat+speaker+wire_Phrase_%7C-%7C100000000000 000127659&cm_guid=1-_-100000000000000127659-_-873971961&gclid=CNOc74Ta3ZMCFReOgg odpjNmZQ The only problem is that at $63 for only 25' it is rather expensive. Especially since I would need 2 runs of it (1 for each speaker). Anyone have any alternatives on the best way to run these wires? There is no crawl space on this floor so whatever I do the wires will have to be on the outside of the wall. But I would like to have them as concealed as possible. Second question. The 2 rear speakers, how high and how far apart should they be mounted? Third question What is the best way to hook up the sound between the PS3, HDTV and the receiver? Should I go from the PS3 into the HDTV and than into the receiver? And last but not least. Once I am all done with this is there someway that I need to calibrate the system so that it sounds its best? |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 250 Registered: Feb-08 | Question #1 - Sorry no answer yet just a question. What is above the room? Question #2 - http://customconnectionsonline.com/faq4.html Question #3 - go into the receiver first. You may have to buy cables to upgrade the picture and sound (I think it only comes with composite video (yellow) and analog audio (red/white). Question 4 - did the Onkyo come with a microphone? (again with the answering a question with a question)  |
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 2 Registered: Jun-08 | #1 above the room is a second floor. There are air ducts for central air, but no crawl space. #2 looks like a nice FAQ. Going to have to fully read through it and see if I have any further questions about it #3 I am a little bit confused. What does the picture have to do with the receiver? Can you please explain this a little bit further. #4 To be honest I am not sure. We have had the system for about 3 years with just the 3 speakers and the sub setup. I believe that my brother has a mic though that he uses for music. Would that work? Thanks for the quick response and any help that you can give me |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 251 Registered: Feb-08 | Q1 - Ouch well ok what would be better mounting the speakers on the ceiling or on a stand/table of some sort? Q2 - hopefully that can clear some things up, if not please let me know. Q3 - Oops, slight error on my part. No need to upgrade the wire!! How do you have the PS3 hooked up right now? Q4 - Never mind, this is not a self calibrating system. You should be able to gather enough information from my FAQ and then tune the speakers to your own taste (so to speak) |
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 3 Registered: Jun-08 | #1 I was thinking of mounting them directly to the wall probably like 2 feet apart from this painting: http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6783/16570168km8.jpg Unless I am better off purchasing 2 stands for them? If so could you point me in the right direction? You mentioned mounting them on the ceiling is that typical? If so do you just mount them facing down? Any further detail you can give me on this scenario would be appreciated. #2 From what I gather from the FAQ for the rear left and right speakers they should be mounted about 3 feet above the top of the couch essentially. The FAQ did not explain to me fully what the distance between those two should be. It only stated for the front speakers. #3 Currently my PS3 is hooked up to my HDTV using Sony's OEM Component cables. So video and right and left channel are going straight into the TV and than the tv is hooked up to the receiver to output the sound. So with that setup I am only getting right and left sound. As stated in my first post I just purchased 2 cables from www.monoprice.com These are the specific cables that I purchased: 1x (HDMI to DVI to go from my PS3 into the HDTV): http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10231&cs_id=1023104 &p_id=2404&seq=1&format=2 1x (Optical Toslink cable to go from my PS3 into the receiver): http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022901 &p_id=1419&seq=1&format=2 As I stated before I think that I should of gotten a second Optical Toslink cable to go from my PS3 into my HDTV than from the HDTV into the receiver but I am not sure. What is the best way to handle this? #4 How do you "Tune" the speakers? Just by the placement? Thanks again for the info |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 253 Registered: Feb-08 | Q1 - great! One way to go about this would be to buy an inexpensive roll of 16 gauge clear speaker wire and run two lengths of it along or underneath the baseboard molding to below the speaker location. If you can't hide the wire, paint it. It disappears remarkably well. Next is to determine if you can live with the wire running straight up the wall either plain or painted. Wait for this decision until you have run the wire along the molding as I think you will be surprised. If so, you are done. If not then fishing the wire up inside the wall is usually quite simple. Get back with us if you want to attempt that. Q2 - the rears should be spread as far apart as the fronts (thanks for catching that) Q3 - With your Onkyo as it is your idea about the PS 3 hook up is a good one. That is taking the HDMI/DVI to the TV and the optical (toslink) to the receiver. There is no need for the second optical cable unless you plan to do a lot of gaming quietly, or in other words using just the TV speakers. Keep in mind that your PS3 will do a great job of playing Blu-ray DVD's. Q4 - Tuning or speaker setup is done by telling your receiver how far away the speakers are from your listening position. Page 32 of your manual explains this rather well: http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/manuals/pdf/dr-s2.2_manual_e.pdf The receiver will then make adjustments automatically. If you wish to tweak it further you can make changes to suit your own distinct listening preference. |
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 4 Registered: Jun-08 | Quick update to even further complicate things I just looked at the back of the HDTV and it does not look like there is an optical in or out. I actually had an old optical cable around the house that I was not aware of. So I hooked it up right from my PS3 into the reciever. I then went to setup the audio settings in my PS3 but I am a little confused. This is what I am presented with: Select an output format supported by the TV or AV amplifier (receiver) in use. The system will automatically adjust the output to match the selected format: Dolby Digital 5.1 Ch. DTS 5.1 Ch. AAC Linear PCM 2 Ch. 44.1 kHz (grayed out) Linear PCM 2 Ch. 88.2 kHz (grayed out) Linear PCM 2 Ch. 176.4 kHz Linear PCM 2 Ch. 48 kHz (grayed out) Which options that are not grayed out should I check? After I go to confirm this I get a warning saying that if I do not have the correct ones checked I could harm my speakers. I don't want to do that =X Also is there a way to now take that sound that is coming into the receiver from the optical cable to also go into the TV so sound comes out there as well? I guess we could make this question #5 lol Thanks again for all of your help thus far |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 255 Registered: Feb-08 | Question 6 - Why do you want to use your TV speakers at all???  |
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 5 Registered: Jun-08 | #6 Thought the TV speakers would help If they don't that's cool lol. Can you help me out on those settings for audio on the PS3? I think as far as just running the wires along the baseboard, up the corner of the walls, etc.. and painting over them will be fine. Can you suggest what is the best speaker wire for me to use? Here is a selection that I found from monoprice: http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10239 Also what is the best thing to use to tack the wire up? Back to what you said earlier: "Q1 - Ouch well ok what would be better mounting the speakers on the ceiling or on a stand/table of some sort?" Can you elaborate more about mounting on the ceiling? Just as an FYI I measured how high my ceiling is. It is 9' 4" |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 256 Registered: Feb-08 | Regarding the TV speakers, it would be easy for me to say they are junk and you should never consider using them because you have a nice 5.1 system but maybe just maybe you like the way they sound and think that adding the extra wire is worth it. It is your system and the idea is to get it set up the way you want it (but try it first without the TV speakers ) I can't help much with the PS3 settings but I am sure there are other contributers here who can Regarding the wire this will work fine: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901 &p_id=2789&seq=1&format=2 Regarding the fastening I have used liquid nails with great success but be careful because it tends to be a bit permanent. If you aren't quite sure use some adhesive that isn't so strong to begin with. You can always go back and finish the job when you decide it looks ok. Ceiling mount speakers work well when they are located underneath an attic and are used with articulating arms so it is easy to point them in different directions. You can run wire up through the wall and through the attic to wire them. It is an alternative to running wire down through the floor and along a crawl space or basement. Since you have no easy access to the space above the ceiling I think you have found the ideal location for your surrounds (mounted in a "back speakers" configuration). If the mounting arms allow you to angle the speakers downward I would use the top of the painting as my guideline and space them as far apart (or farther) as the fronts. |
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 6 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks again Jim. I really appreciate your help. I have 2 more questions before I drive you insane. The 2 rear speakers that I have do not have any mounts for them. They have screw holes (guessing for a mount) and actual holes where you put a screw in and push the speaker down on it to secure it. But if I just do it that way the speakers will only be able to face forward. Do you know of where I can get a mount for them to attach to the walls so that they can be angled? I did a search for the specific speaker model but came back with nothing. Are there just generic mounts out there? Also I was looking in the back of the reciever to figure everything out. I saw something that I do not quit understand. It has A: Front Right Front Left B: Front Right Front Left Why is that? I looked at the manual but all it did was mention something about another room. Thanks again |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 258 Registered: Feb-08 | Here is a bit of satellite speaker wall mount info: http://www.racksandstands.com/Speaker-Mounts-C5498.html Q2 - the B channel is for an additional pair of speakers that you could have in another room (or from what I see of your place outside). Does that answer your question? Not crazy yet! |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 2282 Registered: Feb-04 | Brian, regarding the audio setup on your PS3: check Dolby and DTS. You will be good to go for games and movies. You would need support for 44.1 kHz PCM if you want to play CDs. If that option remains greyed out then no problem because you can play CDs just as well on the Onkyo receiver. The speaker damage warning is necessary in case someone tries to output DTS into a receiver that doesn't support it. Your Onkyo does, so you can disregard this notice. |
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 7 Registered: Jun-08 | @ Jim Are there anyone of those speaker mounts that you would recommend specifically? I can take a picture of the back of the speaker if that would help at all @ John So essentially I should just have all of the options checked off? |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 259 Registered: Feb-08 | Personally I would use a drywall anchor/screw and the keyhole in the back of the speaker prior to buying mounts. If, after testing, you find that sound isn't satisfactory you should have a better understanding of what you need as far as a mount goes (such as just rotates up and down or swivels in all directions, etc.) the hole you make with the screw can be easily covered by the mount or repaired if you decide you need to do something differently. |
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 8 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks Jim, you have given me some options. Going to read a little bit more into the mounts and might end up getting them. Not sure yet. |
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 9 Registered: Jun-08 | Oh real quick if i do just mount them to the walls can I just use a molley into the sheet rock? Or do they need to be into a stud? |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 260 Registered: Feb-08 | You could hang them up anywhere with a picture hook if you wanted. The specs say they only weigh 1.6 kg x 2.2 = 3.52 lbs. |
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New member Username: SpopsPost Number: 10 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks again Jim I think that I am going to go with the wall mounts. I went surfing at www.monoprice.com again. Either one of these look like they are pretty decent: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=108&cp_id=10828&cs_id=1082804 &p_id=3012&seq=1&format=2 http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=108&cp_id=10828&cs_id=1082804 &p_id=3011&seq=1&format=2 For the price I guess you can't beat it. At least if I get them they will give me some more versatility to move the speakers a little bit. |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 262 Registered: Feb-08 | I would go with the first set and at that price I don't blame you one bit!! If you go with the second set you may find the brackets weighing more than the speaker! |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 2283 Registered: Feb-04 | "So essentially I should just have all of the options checked off?" Dolby and DTS are most important; in fact, you'll be using Dolby 90% of the time. To be honest, I have no idea why the setup menu is leaving 176.4 kHz PCM open as an option as this exceeds the bandwidth of optical (TOSLink) transmission. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 11 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks again for the help. I am going to put in an order at monoprice for those mounts and start running the wire next week. I will let you know if I hit any snags with this setup. Going to create a new thread about a different speaker system that I am having problems with. Thanks again |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 12 Registered: Jun-08 | Just a real quick question... I am going to put my order through today for everything that I need. What is the difference between the 12 AWG and 14 AWG speaker wire? The 12 AWG seems to be a little bit more expensive. |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 279 Registered: Jan-08 | Its the guage of the wire or its size (not the length.) Usually, the bigger it is the more expensive it is. Not sure but if you are going in wall get one that is approved for it. I don't have to but I use 16 AWG. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 13 Registered: Jun-08 | Jeff, So which gauge would be better? I am going to be tacking up the wire on the outside of the wall with from what was said liquid nails. Than going to paint over it. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 2288 Registered: Feb-04 | Any gauge heavier than this chart recommends is overkill. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 276 Registered: Feb-08 | http://customconnectionsonline.com/faq10.html |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 287 Registered: Jan-08 | Jim, Home Depot sells a white plastic strip that hides wire and is self adhesive. The below link is the best I could do for an example but they sell them at various lengths and sizes. I was wondering what your opinion on something like this as opposed to slathering goo and paint on a wire running along a wall to hide it? http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?jspStoreDir=hd us&catalogId=10053&productId=100351566&navFlow=3&keyword=along+wall+hide+a+cord+ wire+cover&langId=-1&searchRedirect=along+wall+hide+a+cord+wire+cover&storeId=10 051&endecaDataBean=com.homedepot.sa.el.wc.catalog.beans.EndecaDataBean%40110af86 d&ddkey=Search |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 281 Registered: Feb-08 | I have done both but if done correctly the glue and paint method actually hides small wire better than a chase. The chase works best for multiple, and larger wires. Either way works though! |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 288 Registered: Jan-08 | I don't know. I would probably go with a chase for an amateur looking for advice on the internet. I am not really sure that the person would be able to do this with the extreme care that would be required to do this correctly but maybe I am wrong. What do you think? |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 282 Registered: Feb-08 | Let's put it this way, I can glue wire to molding better than I can caulk molding! Come to think of it, perhaps caulk would be another possible adhesive!!! |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 289 Registered: Jan-08 | Don't get me wrong I am seriously interested in your thoughts on this for my own purposes. Would you recommend this if the wire was not going up the corner of the walls and along the baseboard. What if the wire was just going straight up the wall making it difficult to produce a straight line from the base of the wall to the speaker? |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 283 Registered: Feb-08 | Going straight up a wall, especially a drywall or sheet rock wall I would fish the wire inside the cavity. |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 290 Registered: Jan-08 | What is the best way to fish wire through a wall? Is there a special tool or anything needed? Can anyone do it or does it require special expertise? |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 284 Registered: Feb-08 | Interior walls with no insulation in them are very easy to deal with. A piece of string, a small weight and a wire coat hanger are the basics. Stud finders, fishing tape or rods and a magnet are other items of use. The ideal scenario goes something like this: Make a hole at the speaker location using the template of an old work low voltage gang box and a small hole or slot at the base of the wall big enough to push a 1/2 steel washer with a string attached to it through. From the top hole drop a magnet on a string down to capture the washer and pull. Tape the speaker wire to the string and pull again. There you have it. Without a magnet you can drop the washer down from the top and grab it from below with a coat hanger bent into a hook but that will need a slightly bigger hole at the bottom. Insulated walls require the fish rods or tape to push through but the concept is the same. Finish the hole near the speaker with the gang box and a blank wall plate with a small hole drilled in it. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 14 Registered: Jun-08 | Jim I am very interested in the technique that you described in fishing the wire through the wall. Two quick questions: - I am planning on running the wire along the baseboards for the majority of the run. I am thinking about trying your technique of running the wire inside of the wall just to go from the floor up to the speaker mount. That way there is no line of wire showing going up the middle of the wall. Will it be ok to use the normal speaker wire for that short distance? It's only about 7-8' ? - I am still a little bit confused on what AWG speaker wire I should purchase. It sounds almost like a toss up between 12 and 14. The runs of wire are going to be traveling about 50' from my quick measurement. I do not really understand ohm load so I am pretty confused. Which would you choose? Thanks again I am really sorry for all of the little questions. |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 287 Registered: Feb-08 | Q1- Shouldn't be a problem and it will look better! Q2- Did you read my FAQ? http://customconnectionsonline.com/faq10.html 16 gauge wire should do nicely. Last statement - Hey, that is what this forum is all about! |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 15 Registered: Jun-08 | I did read your FAQ, but this part confused me: o For runs longer than 50 feet or for lower impedance loads (4 or 6 ohm as opposed to a typical 8 ohm load) use a larger (lower gauge) wire such as 14 or 12. That is why I assumed that 12 or 14 was better. I don't fully understand impedance loads, or ohm's But if you say that 16 gauge will do just fine i'll go with that. It will save me about 40 bucks ;) These are the prices form www.monoprice.com 12 AWG 300' = $74.36 14 AWG 300' = $57.60 16 AWG 300' = $37.13 |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 288 Registered: Feb-08 | 12 or 14 gauge IS better but not necessary (although there are those that will argue the point) for this installation! Besides being cheaper it will be easier to work with. I guess I got too technical eh? Well I will have to work on that a bit. FYI impedance = resistance in electromagnetic fields. Resistance is just as it sounds as some sort of blockage to electrical flow. Is that a little clearer or do you seriously not care?!?!?  |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 16 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks again Jim, sounds like a plan Going to order the 16 AWG right now. I appreciate the explanation also. I enjoy learning as I am doing things like this. Going to also try fishing through the wall from top to bottom. So the basic concept is: Cut a small hole where the speakers will be mounted, and another small hole close to the floor. Connect a washer to a string and feed it down the wall. Than try and find it down below with a magnet? Than I can just Spackle an paint over the holes. Am I missing anything? Do I need to use anything on the open hole behind the speaker mount? |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 289 Registered: Feb-08 | The low voltage gang box works great because you get to use a large hole in the wall to pull the wire then the wall plate gives it a nice finished look:   The hole at the bottom only needs to be as big as you washer and string (if all goes well)! Sorry for the horrible pictures but this forum only allows 600x600 AND NEEDS TO BE MORE (HINT, HINT) |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 17 Registered: Jun-08 | Awesome and thank you for the pictures. Going to wait until I get the speaker mounts to see if I even need that. I am not sure If the mount is hollow or not to run the wire through it. Guess I will find out in 3-5 business days when I get it lol. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 18 Registered: Jun-08 | I just picked a product up instead of liquid nails. I think it should do the trick. It was about $6 for a 10 oz. tube. I hope that one tube will last for my whole project for upstairs and down stairs. I guess I will find out next week when I get my wire and mounts. check it out: http://www.geadvancedmaterials.com/geam/gesa/Residential/en/Products/ProductDeta il/gesiliconeiixst.html |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 293 Registered: Feb-08 | Alright Brian, NOW you have done it!!! Since you went and bought this fancy sealant you will now HAVE to let us know how it works... please?!?!  I think it should work great and sure am interested in your results. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 19 Registered: Jun-08 | LOL, will do. I will take pictures of what I did to show everyone. Think of it as a Picture Blog of this project lol I'm off to go and read up on your guides on speaker placement. I want to make sure that I do everything 100% correctly the first time. I stick with the moto of measure twice cut once |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 20 Registered: Jun-08 | Ok, so I have been searching around on the net for some more detailed information. Was trying to find out more information on speaker placement and maybe some diagrams specific to 5.1 setups only. I came across these 2 pictures: http://www.smartcomputing.com/images/smartcomputing/fullsize/00951963.jpg http://webopedia.internet.com/img/Surround_51.jpg Both of them show the Rear Left, and Right speaker facing at each other. How do most people accomplish something like that? On my downstairs TV there would be no way. If you remember from the pictures (first post) the family room opens up into the kitchen. It may be possible for me to do it with the the TV upstairs, but... the right and left walls are 17' apart, and the viewing distance from the couch to the TV is only 14' Help.... LOL |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 304 Registered: Feb-08 | The diagrams show an ideal set up and, as with most things, life isn't too ideal so we do the best we can. Unless you have a dedicated Theater it is very unlikely that this perfect placement can be achieved. Get as close as you can and let the receiver do the rest. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 21 Registered: Jun-08 | I also just found this: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_entertainment/roomlayout2.html It shows all of the speakers really low, almost at ear level. Thought you said it should be at least 3' above ear level? Sorry again for all the questions but I was planning on measuring everything out perfectly today. Trying to prepare for my shipment of wire and speaker mounts that I will be getting on Tuesday. |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 305 Registered: Feb-08 | The "spacious" sound is a The Dolby site doesn't really say anything about the height of the speaker. The "spaciousness" of the sound cannot be accomplished if the speaker is plugged into your ear. Do some experimenting with temporary wire and hangers to see what sounds best to you. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 22 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks again for the quick response Jim. I guess I just wish that there was some simple math for my questions  I know its not your fault at all. I would just like (but beginning to realize its impossible) to find math that says: If your Viewing distance from couch to TV is X distance your rear speakers should be X distance apart and X distance in height. Sounds like a lot of it is almost a guessing game. I guess I should try to experiment, but I am almost hesitant for 2 reasons. It sounds like a huge amount of work to hang speakers in several locations and than have to patch and repaint all the holes I create. And I am unsure if my untrained ears will really be able to hear a noticeable difference (probably my biggest concern). |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 306 Registered: Feb-08 | Welcome to Audio Engineering 101!!! I used to set up cars "by the book" where by the measurement devices we had the sound should be "perfect". We then would get people to drive them for a few days making adjustments to what amounts to a fancy equalizer and no two EVER came back the same. Everyone hears things differently so the work you put into your system is important if you truly want it to sound fantastic. |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 301 Registered: Jan-08 | Hi Brian, I was reading your posts and wanted to offer my input on your placement of speakers while emphasizing that these are just guidelines that I have found useful. These are just criteria to help you in your ultimate goal of achieving a surround sound environment using the given number of speakers you are working with. What is important is that the speakers are properly placed in the room in order to achieve a surround sound effect. In essence the speakers need to surround the room in such a manner that they are able to produce the surround sound effect. The most important part of the placement is that the speakers surround the listener and are done in a way that the speakers can do what they were intended to do. There is nothing wrong with tailoring these guidelines to suit your specific needs but it is also not a good idea to stray too far from the basic guidelines for their placement. For example; I have my left and right surrounds at about 3 feet above the ear at the seating position but I do have them slightly behind the listening position and at the same point on each wall as opposed to the below suggestion of 6 feet. This is just what I prefer. Front Speaker placement For best stereo imaging, the left and right speakers should be the same distance from their respective side walls. If the distance from one speaker to the listener is very different from the other it can affect the soundstage or stereo imaging. Therefore, the ideal position is having the speakers equidistant to the listener. A general guideline for speaker placement is to set up the space between speaker and listener at approximately 1-1/2 times the distance between the speakers. For example, if the speakers are placed a minimum of 6-feet (1.8m) apart (the absolute minimum), the best seating position would be 9-feet (2.4m) away. Center Channel placement A center channel can be expected to reproduce as much as 60% of a movie's soundtrack, most of which is dialogue. In order to maintain the effect of voices emanating from the actor's mouth, the Center Channel should be centrally located between the left and right main channels and placed above or below the television. Be sure that the front baffle is flush with the front face of the television or cabinet to maximize dispersion. Surround Speaker placement The surround speakers can be positioned in a variety of locations. The surround placement is usually dictated by the room, where the walls and room boundaries happen to be, and where speaker cable can be easily run. The most common surround speaker locations are the following: Side walls: For best results in side wall mounting applications, position the speakers adjacent to and slightly behind the primary listening area at a height of approximately 6 feet. Rear walls: For best results mounting on a rear wall, position the speakers so they flank the main listening area and point towards the front of the room. They should be raised to a height of approximately 6 feet and should ideally have a space of 6 feet between them. Ceiling Mount: The surround speakers can also be ceiling mounted. Place the speakers behind and angled down towards the seating areas. If you have followed these guidelines, then there should be speakers surrounding your listening area, which will result in the encompassing surround sound feeling. These are basic guidelines and can be tailored to suit the décor of your room. Active Subwoofer placement The subwoofer can be placed virtually anywhere in your listening room, however interactions between the subwoofer and your room's acoustic properties will have some impact on the overall bass performance. Start off by placing the subwoofer near a corner, or against a wall, which will produce maximum bass output, but may result in a "boomy" bass reproduction. Move the subwoofer away from the wall or corner in stages to find the position that yields maximum bass output without "boominess". It is important to leave at least 4 inches (10cm) of clearance space between the subwoofer and walls or room furnishings. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 23 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks for the post Jeff So in the end it sounds like I am best off mounting the rear speakers as high up as they can go and try to angle them down to the center seat on the couch. Does that sound about right? something maybe like this: http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9360/16570168km8ym4.jpg You say they should be about 6' apart. If they are more than 6' apart would that be ok? Would that hurt or maybe even help it? |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 302 Registered: Jan-08 | Again, this is ultimately up to you. you could do that with the rears if that is the method you decide on. That is just one of the many ways it can be done. Normally this decision would depend on what is the most feasible aproach for your specific setup. In other words which of the methods works best for you and your needs. Would it be easier to ceiling mount or rear wall mount them? You can do it in any of the ways mentioned it is really up to you which works best but you do want to follow the basic guidelines for the method you choose. What is most important is that the speakers surround the listener and placed in the proper way as to achieve the surround effect. No, the fronts do not have to be 6 feet apart. That is just an example and is just the minimum distance. What is being explained is that if you were setting them up at 6 feet apart the best seating position would be 9 feet away. It is just a general guideline. The important part is that the fronts are the same distance from their respective walls. If your TV is in the center of the room then you would want the front right and left to be the same distance from the TV on each side. How far away will the seating position be from the fronts and what flexibility do you have for the placement of the fronts? |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 24 Registered: Jun-08 | Let me go and take some measurements of the room... BRB in like 5 minutes |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 25 Registered: Jun-08 | Ok, back and with some pictures Sorry it took so long: http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4858/tvxv5.jpg The TV stand itself is also 4' 7" http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7258/leftwalluh2.jpg http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/462/backwallrs7.jpg The speakers that will be hung on the rear wall are 1' 1.5" x 5" The viewing distance from the sitting position on the couch to the from of the TV is 13' |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 303 Registered: Jan-08 | The listening and the viewing are in a rectangular area -correct? Meaning the rear wall is the same width as the wall where the TV and other equipment are? If you were standing in the middle of the rear wall would you be looking directly at the center of the TV? It looks that way but I cannot tell for sure.... |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 26 Registered: Jun-08 | I'll go and take 2 pictures to show you more clearly... BRB |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 27 Registered: Jun-08 | http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8319/dscn3106ms9.jpg http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/8607/dscn3107fq4.jpg And last but not least my really crappy diagram: http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/4338/45437994ce4.jpg Hope that makes a little bit more sense now. |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 304 Registered: Jan-08 | Ok, the room is shaped the way I was expecting. It looks like the fronts are pretty much where they have to be and the position does look acceptable to me. Make sure you have the front right and the left the same distance from the TV on either side. For the surrounds I would use the rear wall and place them at a minimum distance of 6 feet apart and facing toward the front of the room. This is just my opinion but the reason I would consider 6 feet is because under normal circumstances with a side wall mount the speakers would be facing toward you from the side and not toward the front of the room from the rear so a closer distance between them on a rear wall mount would do a better job of replicating the effect from a side wall mount. I would try to experiment with the distance between the surrounds a little before making a final decision if you can but I think you will be fine with 6 feet. More would not be out of the realm of possibility as it would expand the spaciousness of the surround sound. Anyway try it out and see what you like best. I have my surround left and rights at a height of about 3 feet above the ear at the listening position. Your setup is going to produce the desired surround sound effect so don't be coaxed into splitting hairs on it. To me the only decision you have is where to mount the surrounds on the rear wall. It looks like you will be just fine! The following is very important! Really the only unfortunate part of this for you is that the receiver you have chosen does not have automatic speaker setup. You should really take a good look starting at page 29 of your manual and make sure to setup your speakers on the receiver correctly manually. The point is that if you are not totally satisfied with the way you end up placing your speakers you can polish it off by following the directions starting on page 29 of your receiver manual. In other words the actual placement of the speakers will not be complete until you do this! There is more to the speaker setup than just their placement. You have to tell the receiver what distances you used and make other adjustments to the receiver according to your preferences. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 28 Registered: Jun-08 | Jeff, you would not happen to have aol instant messenger or Yahoo instant messenger would you? If not its ok, but i thought it might be a little bit easier to talk to you like that. If not though i'll ask my questions here ^_^ |
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Silver Member Username: CclashhPost Number: 305 Registered: Jan-08 | I do not see any harm in it. AOL and Yahoo is cclashh if it ends up being case sensitive its CClashh |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 29 Registered: Jun-08 | Thanks jeff i sent it to your yahoo... I'm still new to yahoo messaging but it looks like the other person has to accept it |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 30 Registered: Jun-08 | Ok, problems ... I just received my speaker wire and mounts in the mail a little while ago. Before I started to do anything I decided to hook up all of the speakers witch short runs of wires to make sure it all worked. At first I could not get surround sound at all. I finally figured out that my stepfather had the system setup as "Chanel A+B". He also had the Right front speaker in the correct spot under A. But he had the left front speaker listed under B as a right speaker. So I switched the wires and put them in the correct spot. I than made sure that the receiver was only set to Chanel A. And that it was on a 5 Chanel setup. I proceeded to do the tone test to check each speaker... Every single speaker works, except for one. The Left Front speaker will not work at all. It is not the speaker, so it must be something with the receiver. I tried to call onkyo but after being on hold for 30 minutes they hung up on me. I called back and got there closed message. Anyone have any idea what the problem could be? |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 314 Registered: Feb-08 | Hopefully the "balance" knob is all the way to the right. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 31 Registered: Jun-08 | There is no Balance Knob I have been going kind of nuts looking through the manual for the past hour but can't seem to find a fix. |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 315 Registered: Feb-08 | So the left speaker won't work even in stereo mode? |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 32 Registered: Jun-08 | Yup I am beginning to think that it is a problem with the connection on the receiver. Because it is not the speaker, or the wire. |
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Silver Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 317 Registered: Feb-08 | That would be the next thing to check. Such as wiring the right speaker to the left side at the back of the Receiver. |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 33 Registered: Jun-08 | The speaker does work, I tried it on Chanel B. That is why I know that the speaker and wire are not the problem. I think the problem lies with the receiver. Maybe there is something wrong internally. I'm not sure, just frustrated at the moment. All of this and now it looks like I will never get surround sound from this system |
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Bronze Member Username: SpopsPost Number: 34 Registered: Jun-08 | UPDATE: I finished hanging the rear speakers and I wanted to share it with you guys: http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/240/dscn3121kc4.jpg I attempted to glue the wire to the walls, but quickly found out that it was not going to work. The stuff I purchased along with a few others I looked at says it takes about 2 hours to dry. Now that may not of been so bad if I was running this along the baseboard, but... This was all being run across the ceiling. And let's just say I made a little mess before I changed my mind. I went to lowes and purchased the plastic channel for wire to go through. it was an extremely tight fit for 2 runs of the 16 AWG wire, but I made it work. In the end I think that it came out really nicely. As far as the receiver goes, we have decided to purchase a new one. If I could actually get this one fixed, it would probably cost more than the new receivers I found. Someone on another forum recommended this site to me: http://www.accessories4less.com/ They tell me it is a very reputable site. Here are some of the receivers that I was looking at on the site: http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONLTXSR304BLK/ONKYO/TX-SR304-5 .1-Channel-Home-Theater-Receiver-BLACK/1.html http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR505/ONKYO/TX-SR505-7.1- Channel-Home-Theater-Receiver-BLACK/1.html http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR505SLV/ONKYO/TX-SR505-7 .1-Channel-Home-Theater-Receiver-SILVER/1.html http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKHTR640B/ONKYO/HT-R640-5.1-H DMI-Home-Theater-Receiver-from-HTS894/1.html There are a lot more on the site, but I was just looking at some of the Onkyo ones that were below $200 |
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