Center Speaker Location - Revisited
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 32 Registered: Mar-06 | Hello Again, I need to re-open an issue I raised a couple months ago when I included a picture of my current HT setup asking for your opinions on where I could possibly relocate my "eye-sore" Paradigm CC570 Center Speaker. Just to refresh your memory.. My Plasma is mounted above the fireplace / mantel and there was not enough space to put this large center speaker either above or below the Plasma. So... I have this great sounding "eye sore" sitting on the hearth elevated by a 28 inch Paradigm Speaker Stand. The sound is great, but everyone who comes into the room says, 'Good thing you don't have a wife..". I considered many ideas. (1)Eliminate the center Speaker completely, but I felt this would significantly deteriorate my sound; (2) use the Plasma Speakers like a Center Channel; (3)relocate the center speaker to the back of the room behind the viewer in between my surround sound speakers (you guys all shot that down); (4) Find out if Paradigm makes a smaller Center Speaker (they do, but they tell me it woud not be a good tonal match for my Studio 100s).. Some of you suggested that I look into some Home Decorating catalogs, etc. I did just that and pretty much found nothing until today. Let me run this by you.. As I mentioned, the Plasma is located above the fireplace. Although it's true that I have no additional space above or below the Plasma for the Center Speaker, I do have alot of room on the sides of the Plasma. Consider this - what if I bought two new matching speakers - say maybe 30 inches high by about 4 or 5 inches wide and mount them on the wall on the left and right sides of the Plasma. Then I get my installer to work some magic and wire them to perform a like one center speaker in my 5.1 set up. Just thinking outside the box here. Would this work? As always, your help is most appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth,... Post Number: 1544 Registered: May-05 | Frank1203 One question you don't use this fireplace? As placing any electrical item near to additional heat sources is not very favourable. As for what everyone else said reposition the whole set-up and good luck. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 33 Registered: Mar-06 | I use the fireplace frequently and it has never been a problem. I checked all that with qualified people before I went ahead with the setup. In fact, Tvs hanging above a useable fireplace are very common. I'm not looking to totally change my setup, just to get some educated opinions on what I can do with my existing setup. Thank you. |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth,... Post Number: 1547 Registered: May-05 | Frank1203 Flip it all around and start over fresh, you need a good perfect alignment of the whole system, no loudspeakers in crocked positions all the fronts must be at the same height, and should have fairly good spacing, not to close to the sidewalls for the left and right fronts. All fronts must be the same! The surrounds work and perform best in multiples down the sidewalls and rear wall to give true placement and excitement of the home cinema six-track Dolby stereo digital surround experience! |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 20 Registered: Aug-06 | hey frank i recently installed a plasma above a fireplace for a guy. i wonder if you could post those pics again. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 35 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi. I am attaching a link to my original post. This post has the pictures of my set up posted in the thread. Please refer to that. I am new to this, so if you can't click on the link, just cut and paste it into the address bar. I am also interested to hear your thoughts onmy idea of mounting a speaker to the left and right of the Plasma to be wired as a "Center Speaker". Thanks. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-theater/251154.html |
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Silver Member Username: MccambleyBREEZY POINT, NY USA Post Number: 268 Registered: Jun-05 | Get rid of the pictures on the mantle and lower the plasma and you will have enough room above the plasma for the center speaker |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 25 Registered: Aug-06 | i think it will be too high then, i say if there is any way to get it on that mantel, that is your best bet. even if you have to raise the plasma and sink the center into the wall a bit. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 36 Registered: Mar-06 | Thaks to all for your input. Just reading the conflicting viewpoints about where to place my center speaker (higher or lower on mantel), I guess you can see why this is so difficult. Actually, I'm pretty much convinced that it can't be on the mantel at all. The Plasma is in the right spot and I do not want to move it. Also, the center Speaker that I have (Paradigm CC570) is very large. That is why I asked the question of getting rid of it and then mounting two "side speakers" next to the plasma to perform like one Center Speaker. Maybe my idea was way too far outside the box because no one commented on that idea. Tommy, you mentioned you did a recent installation similar to mine, where did you locate the Center? |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 26 Registered: Aug-06 | we placed it on the mantle but the center i used was much smaller so it would fit. the problem with placing above is it would be so high it would sound too far away. i suppose the speakers left and right would work fine, you just need to make sure your reciever can handle 4 ohm loads and that you set the minimum to 4 ohm. |
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Silver Member Username: MccambleyBREEZY POINT, NY USA Post Number: 273 Registered: Jun-05 | Let this be a lesson to all don't put your plasma over the fireplace. Besides having to look up in order to watch TV, and suffer neck strain what do you do with the center speaker. |
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Bronze Member Username: HogwildPost Number: 67 Registered: Aug-05 | Put the plasma in the fireplace and buy a projector. Go big or go home. Open your mind to other alternatives Frankie. There have been some good recommendations. |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 27 Registered: Aug-06 | The problem is sometimes thats the only option unless you put the fireplace behind you which most times does not look good. architects need to design the living rooms where the fireplace is on the side wall and not the front. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 37 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks for speaking up for my situation, Tommy. Hanging the Plasma above the fireplace was my ONLY option based on the way my Family Room is laid out. I thought that was already understood. Resurfacing old and perceived issues like Neck strain is old news (especially when we have had no problems at all). I'm just trying to move forward and was hoping there were some folks out there who might have had to deal with the same issues. All I'm asking is for some thinking outside the box ideas but being realistic at the same time. I can't chnage the structure of my house or rip out a fireplace. My installer suggested an in-ceiling type speaker made by KEF that is recantangular in dimension that has a power tilt directly at the viewer. Sounds like a good option, but I need to better understand how it would work / match with my existing Paradigm set up. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1094 Registered: Feb-04 | Frank, Your installer, Brian (as I recall?) has an excellent solution to your center channel dilemma. A ceiling mounted center speaker, while maybe not ideal with regard to to the movie theater surround model, could be the best compromise solution to your problem. This may be even better than a compromise if he can install this speaker out a bit towards the main listening area instad of flush over the plasma. |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 38 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks for your input, John. Great to hear from you. I plan on visiting a KEF dealer within the next couple days to hear the in-ceiling speaker that Brian (you have a good memory) suggested. What concerns me though is even if it sounds good at the dealer, it may be a different ball game when I eventially get it installed with my Paradigm stuff. FYI - I did contact Paradigm about this latest idea and the technician felt there may be a timbre matching issue. Not knowing KEF or how my equipment works, he couldn't add much to that idea except to take the chance and try it myself (which would be an expensive undertaking, not to mention make a hole in my ceiling). He did give me a different suggestion though which I want to run by you and the group here. He told me that a better idea is to totally get rid of the center channel and don't replace it. He said that my Rotel equipment could be reprogrammed to make my two front Paradigm Studio 100s take on the Center Channel information in addition to front speaker information in the Surround Sound System. He called this a "phantom" center speaker. He told me to test this idea by turning off my existing center channel through the proccessor and playing videos, etc. in this fashion. I haven't had a minute to try that yet, but I will today. What are your thoughts to that idea? It's certainly the right price and I'm sure I could find a buyer for my CC-570 Center Speaker and Stand. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1099 Registered: Feb-04 | A very cheap experiment Frank. Could be that this is all you needed to do, assuming proper setup re. minus the center channel. My guess is you'll not quite recognize dialog quite as well as before. Hopefully I will be wrong about that. |
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Bronze Member Username: UsernamexLondonEngland Post Number: 17 Registered: Oct-05 | Many people view the centre is the most important speaker for home theatre; personally, I wouldn't want to use a "phantom". Anyway, I guess you're after some "novel" ideas, hmmm... - Using in wall speakers if possible rather than the ceiling (chimney is probably a problem though?) - Cutting a recess into the wall above the tv and embedding the centre as far back into the cavity as possible, then if it stick out a few inches, remounting the tv on an angle with the top edge flush with it. (Maybe need to move the bottom out an inch or two as well to reduce the angle?) The best option may be to consider trading in and buying a sub & satellite speakers. Maybe something like the new monitor audio radius package; just read a "what hifi" review saying they've finally got it right, 5 stars. But like most of the other comments, I'd want to rearrange the room. I know you can't / don't want to do this... However, a new couch / table etc that allows lets you rearrange your layout without spending on changing your hifi might be the cheapest and best option? Hmm, even a corner layout would be better than losing the centre. Good luck with whatever you try. Cheers, Mike |
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New member Username: 70chevellePost Number: 1 Registered: Sep-06 | Frank1203, I looked at your setup with the link. Since your thinking outside the box, instead of purchasing and in-ceiling center and chancing a mismatch, why not mount your center on the ceiling forward of your can lites and tilted towards the listening area. Worst case, you may have 2 or 3 holes to patch if it doesn't work out, and it may the best way to approach it using your existing equipment and fireplace. |
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New member Username: MsvaraPost Number: 3 Registered: Sep-06 | Hey Frank1203, Why not be a bit creative with the white frame just above the fp. It looks to me that you would be able to manufacture a really nice opening in that area that'll fit that speaker. Then just paint the front of the speaker white and voila! |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 39 Registered: Mar-06 | Thank you Thom and Mark for your ideas. Let me address them.. Thom, I had considered mounting the speaker from the ceiling, but basically, we're again talking about moving a major eye sore from the hearth to the ceiling. Can you imagine a 50lb; 28" long speaker hanging from the ceiling? Yes, it will get the job done from a sound standpoint, but I don't think I've resolved my room decor issue with that idea.. Mark - I really like the idea of finding a way to get that Center Speaker into the white frame (mantel). Yes, it would fit, but what I worry about with this is damage to the speaker that could be caused when the fireplace is burning wood. Remember - this particular speaker is about 8" deep so it would have to be resessed into the wall and it may cause an issue with the flu. I do think that the flu is significantly back in the firebox, but I would need to check into that. Did you consider this when you gave me your suggestion? Maybe you can shed some additional light on this to help me. I think heat is the problem with this idea but I will explore further. By the way - to all who responded.. Here's the lastest status on some things we've been discussing.. I did go out to a KEF dealer and check out the in ceiling speaker. It was ok, but sorry to say, could not hold a candle to my current sound with my Paradigm CC570. I also tried disconnecting the center and running the sound through the Phantom Mode of the processor. John - you were right on. It worked ok, but the voices were definitely not able to recognized as well. Keep those ideas and suggestions coming. Thanks for responding. We're getting closer. |
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New member Username: MsvaraPost Number: 5 Registered: Sep-06 | Hi Frank1203, I did consider that but at the same time if you can go in at least 6" to ensure the speaker is securely in place then how thick is the grille? about 1"? Maybe you could remove the grille altogether. I don't know what else you could do in this situation. Bang and Olfsen make really great speakers that are super thin and sexy. Have a look. http://www.bang-olufsen.com/web2/systems/product.asp?section=systems&sub=ls&prod id=552 |
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Silver Member Username: Eib_nationOhio EIBville Post Number: 139 Registered: Jul-06 | Frank, My suggestion is the most simple of all. First of all, you do not want to replace your center speaker with something that will not match your fronts. Leave the center speaker right where it is for movies. When the movie is over, I'd spend about 10 seconds, pick it up, and place it along the sidewall where it's out of the way. If it was me, I would leave it there permanently without a 2nd thought, and only move it to the sidewall when I wanted to light a fire. When you buy your next home, you'll be more aware what to look for so you won't end up with a room that is a HT lemon. |
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New member Username: MsvaraPost Number: 7 Registered: Sep-06 | Rush - Frank1206's room is not a HT Lemon at all. In fact there are many BIG homes that have a plasma atop the fireplace. You won't see the other components because they're mostly in a special room with a Radio based remote control. Have a look at some of these pictures I found. The first image shows your almost exact setup without any speakers. Then you see the next image with a plasma on the adjoining wall where the fireplace is located with recessed speakers.   |
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New member Username: MsvaraPost Number: 8 Registered: Sep-06 | Here's another photo of someone that mounted the plasma atop a fireplace and it stated in the article that the speakers were flush mounted. I can't see them in the photo but that's the beauty of the new HT concept.  |
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Bronze Member Username: TommyvRowlett, Texas Post Number: 32 Registered: Aug-06 | even though it may look pretty, especially in a picture, in reality mounting the plasma above the fireplace is not the ideal situation, even more so when it comes to home theater. of course it can be made to work but there are many disadvantages to it. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1109 Registered: Feb-04 | Frank, maybe these are sold only in sets, but maybe you can get HIFI House to sell you a single Paradigm 220 L/C/R to mount in that rectangle just below the mantle. It measures 20 5/16" wide 5 7/8" tall and 4 13/16" deep. Since it is a different series from your other Paradigms, there may be some timbral mismatch, but probably not much. Shouldn't be a huge problem for Brian to mount and wire. http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmModels/Cinema/Cinema _Specs.html#220_330 |
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Bronze Member Username: Frank1203Post Number: 40 Registered: Mar-06 | John - Thanks for your reply. Mark had a few posts in this thread where he also gave the same kind of idea. Whether its the Paradigm Millenium (like you suggested) or I keep my CC570, the issue I believe will be one of heat damage. What I need to do is contact the person who installed my fireplace and get their opinion. Heat getting to the Plasma has not been an issue as it is on the wall and raised up, but inserting a speaker into the mantle may have be a different problem. I do know that the 9" flu pipe is ressessed abck in the firebox at least 2 feet. |
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Gold Member Username: John_sColumbus, Ohio US Post Number: 1110 Registered: Feb-04 | Frank, I was thinking of mounting the long and relatively thin speaker on the outside of the mantel rather than cutting a big hole in it. Heat damage would not be a problem here, and repairing the bracket holes in the future should not be a huge problem. Brian could run the speaker wire externally down the side of the mantel frame to the equipment rack, and it should not be terribly unsightly. Finding or making a proper mount for the speaker is probably the biggest hurdle. With this setup the center would not only be closer to the TV, but also more on an even plane with the tweeters on your towers, both of which are good. |
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