HT sound selection
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New member Username: Mastermind26San Francisco, CA USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Oct-05 | Ok, 1st off I am a NOOBIE at home theater and would not consider myself and audiphile (but can be very easilt converted). This is my 1st post after having read many of the entries here. I want to have the HT sound to go along with my big screen tv. I have read the comments and recommendations for receivers and speakers. The Panasonic SA-XR55K seems the likely candidate for my reciever since I already spent $2k on the TV. I don't have a clue about speakers, but was actually considering browsing craigslist to see what some people are putting up for sale. (Here come the questions) Would this be a wise thing to do? Should I concentrate on buying new or is "previously owned" still a choice to consider? What speakers would sound best (best here means something that would not put me over the $3K and already having spent the initial $2k on the TV set) with this receiver? What would be better sound quality floor speakers, small fronts (for surround), etc.? Should I buy new cable for the new setup or is my old ok (I have flat copper cable about 100ft @ 10 gauge *I think*)? My HT sound would be for watching TV (movies/cable/PPV sports) and for the occational music (going through the suround receiver). Let me see am I missing anything? Hmmm. The room size if about 10X15', HW floors (I don't know if this would make a difference in speaker selection, but just to cover all the bases). Any help is GREATLY appreciated, Mastermind26 |
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New member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Oct-05 | Oh, I forgot. Attached to the TV now is a pioneer surround reciever (bought from costco * please don't laugh too much*). For fronts I am using my old TECHNICS and for the satellites and center channel I am using the pioneers speakers. For the sub I'm using the pioneer sub that came with the unit as well. The dvd player is a prgressive ONKYO 5 DVD changer (I also use this as my cd player). The Satellite box has (I believe) 5.1 surround out (running to the pioneer receiver) and HDMI hooked up to my TV for video only. |
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New member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 3 Registered: Oct-05 | Correction the surround sound receiver is NOT a pioneer, but a KENWOOD. Model # VR-406 |
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New member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 4 Registered: Oct-05 | No comments? WHere is everybody? Am I being ignored? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6331 Registered: May-04 | You're in the right area but the people who love to answer these sorts of questions don't come over here. Try posting in this part of the forum; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/18.html, and I bet you'll get plenty of opinions. |
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New member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 5 Registered: Oct-05 | Jan, Thank you for your help. However I can not start a new thread under that forum. I'll try again in a while, but in the mean time does any have any opinions/suggestions/comments? I really appreciate your help here. Mastermind26 |
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Bronze Member Username: TurbodogPost Number: 36 Registered: Jul-05 | I got a great deal on a set of used Thiel speakers locally. Craigslist is an OK place to look, because you can get face-to-face with the seller, listen to and inspect the equipment before buying. Plus, you don't pay inflated shipping charges. You can also do this on ebay by including distance from your zipcode as a search criteria (this is how I found the Thiels). I bought an Sa-XR55 (not for the Thiels, though!) and like it a lot. The one thing it does lack is an audio delay function to help with lip synch issues. Fortunately, my Oppo DVD player has an audio delay function. Something to consider, though. I believe floor-standing (tower) front speakers are best, especially if you use the system to listen to music. However, bass management (getting the crossover and phasing of your subwoofer set right) is more critical and more difficult when your main speakers have bass response that substantially overlaps your sub. If your wires are really 10 guage (thats pretty heavy guage!) I would not spend a dime to replace them. I'm a electrical engineer (analog/RF) with 30+ years experience and I believe 99% of the expensive speaker wires are snake-oil. If you do buy speaker wire, I suggest home-depot and the heaviest guage that is practical for your setup (but at least 14 guage). Hope that helps..... |
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New member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Oct-05 | Thank you Rick, Yes, it does. I feel a little more confident about browsing through Craigslist for the speakers. I agree that floor speaker provide a wider sound selection for music and movies. Too bad my current receiver (the Kenwood VR406) does not let me have any "say" in the crossover/phase since all I can really do is set the phase shift from 180i½ to 0i½ (not sure if it what you mean by phase) and to set the Hz filter to (whatever) the lowest value for the sub that was included with the receiver/surround set. Unfortunately I don't have 10 guage for any speakers. I wish! I would say it is closer to 12-14 guage, but I could not tell you for sure. That brings me to 2 (or 3) other questions that just popped in my head? Where can I buy good quality CHEAP speaker cables that are ready to run (since I'm not too sure I can correctly add the necessary ends to "bulk cables" from the Home Depot)? If I use floor speakers for the fronts, should I also upgrade the satellites and center (they are the original speakers that came with the surround bundle)? Since I will be using such large speakers, should I set the level for the satellites and center to large to compensate for the amount of volume coming from the LARGE fronts? Changing the subject slightly: I still can't seem to add a thread to the referred forum. It says it can't find the server. Any ideas? Thanks to all, Mastermind26 |
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Bronze Member Username: TurbodogPost Number: 37 Registered: Jul-05 | I followed the link OK (shrug). You can navigate there 'manually': Home > Message Board > Home Audio > Receivers I have always made up my own speakers wires, so really don't have any direct experience in buying pre-terminated wires. I'm guessing you'll pay a premium, but sometimes time is more precious than money. In my previous house, I had a 20 ft run from the amps to the speakers. I used 10 guage Romex under the floor, with a terminal block at each end. Then, for the final ~3 ft to the amp and speakers, I used 16 guage "Home Depot" speaker wire. This gave me the heavy guage wire for the long run, but a manageable wire size for the final hook-up. Everyone will tell you to stay with the same brand for all the speakers, so that they are 'timbre matched'. I have generally ingnored this advice and am satisfied with my sound (but I am willing to believe it would be better if I had 'timbre matched' speakers). I cannot judge the quality or performance of your existing speakers. I would not set the to 'large' unless they are rated for the full power output of your receiver, and have a spec frequency response down to at least 60 Hz. If you don't know these specs (they might not be stated in a HTIB system), then I recommend replacing them. I am pretty happy with the Athena 'point 5' surround set (4 satellites and a center channel) powered by the SA-XR55. Modestly priced, but definitely get the job done. I have experimented with them set to 'large' and 'small', and have settled on 'large'. My front speakers for that system are Advent H400 Heritage (I expect sneers from the true audiophiles here). They are also priced very modestly, and sound fine to me. I bought them after being dissatisfied with the sound from Athena WS100s. My Sub is a Yamaha YST-SW315. Total speaker system cost ~$700. Watched 'Sahara' the other nite and the action scenes sounded great. Watched 'My Dog Skip' and a thunderstorm scene caused my storm-neurotic dog to go into full panic attack. Yes, the 0/180 switch is one method to adjust sub phasing, as is changing the 'distance' setting in the receiver. The point is, if you have low frequency coming from your front speakers (and possibly the surround satellites if set to 'large') as well as the sub, then there is a definite chance that the low-frequency sound from these various sources will 'cancel each other out' at various points in the room. You need to tune so that this does NOT happen where you plan to be sitting (the wife is on her own!  ). You will have to listen and tinker to get a combination that sounds best to you. A receiver with a built-in tuning function (a'la Yamaha YPAO like I have in my other system) can help to get you close. Enough for now. Let me know what you decide! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6346 Registered: May-04 | Just my opinion, but I would avoid using cables such as Romex. Any time you run the + and - leg of a speaker cable in parallel without twisting the pair, you will have a cable with a fairly high inductance. Since any inductor placed in parallel with the outputs of the amplifier will tend to roll off the frequency response of the speaker, a better choice would be using the twisted pair cable that Home Depot sells in bulk. It is a stranded cable which will make pulling the run a bit easier than Romex. Depending on the length of your run, you can buy their 14AWG extension cord in 100' lengths and chop off the AC connectors. The HD extension cords are actually in favor some in the "audiophile" community as inexpensive speaker cables. |
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Bronze Member Username: TurbodogPost Number: 38 Registered: Jul-05 | This 'sounds' like 'sound' engineering (pun intended) to me. And, it appeals to the cheapskate in me, too. |
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New member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 7 Registered: Oct-05 | Oh! Wow, I just learned something. I'm visiting HD after work today! So would I need to cap the ends or just plug the bare wire ends to the unit(s)? I will be replacing my speaker cables since I will be replacing the speakers too (only makes sense). Please rate these speakers that I have in my garage (but I'll have to post this later since I don't have specs herre @ work). They are Mits. w/12" woofers, 4.5"(?) mids, 1" tweeters. Pretty old (at least 3-5 yrs.), but still sound good (to me). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6349 Registered: May-04 | I wouldn't get overly excited about the HD extension cords. That is precisely the point of the cable. As a speaker cable the HD cords do a very acceptable job and have probably taken a bite out of low priced cable sales. I replaced a pair of too short, (front speaker) mid priced Kimber cables with the HD cords and, while not as "alive" as the Kimber, the HD cords do a pleasant job of presenting the music. They do nothing particularly wrong and nothing particularly well. That is the mark of a good budget product. All things in balance. By "cap the ends" I assume you are inquiring whether the cables should be terminated in any particular fashion. The best connection is a bare wire to a gas tight termination. Most speaker conenctors are not a "gas tight" connection and the cable will oxidize over time. If this is the case with your amp and speaker connections, then a spade lug or other type of connector that allows maximum contact area and the ability to clean the connection at some interval in time would be desirable. Banana plugs in audio use are meant for temporary connections only and should be avoided for long term use. The HD extension cable is sold in a three conductor format; white, black and green conductor dielectrics inside an outer insulation. You can choose how to terminate the ends based on your ability to connect the cables to your amplifier and speakers. Some people prefer to use just one conductor per leg (= & -) and leave one extra conductor open. Others will buy two smaller gauge cables twisted together to equal a greater gauge (lower resistance) and acheive lower mutual conductance (capacitance and inductance) between the two legs. Using two twisted runs of 16AWG and you can use all three conductors of each cord for each leg of the run, if you amp and speakers can accommodate the larger gauge. I have no way to rank speakers since I have no idea what you want your system to sound like. I'll leave that for others on the forum. |
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New member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 8 Registered: Oct-05 | Hmm. That's a lot to chew on. Well since the receiver itself is not the greatest I believe the connections wouldn't be either. If I remember correctly they are the twist-tight wire "crimper". I like the sound of the twisting two smaller gauge cables to achieve lower impedance. But don't I want higher conductance to move the current smoothly through the length of the cable? Or did I misunderstand you? You're right, I never gave a purpose to the speaker ranking. Basically they will handle Movie/TV and the occational party/music scene. I don't necessarily want "loud", but "good" music reproduction. I believe "clarity" for music/TV/movies would be the point of this setup. I do not consider myself an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination, but I do like Hi-Fi sound at home. I'm kinda picky about sounds and can tell the difference between muddy bass, screetchy highs and muffled/dead mids. So, basically I am looking for budget price for quality sound (I know, I should just throw in the kitchen sink!). My total (an I can't go over this) is $3K, $2k of which are already gone. So for a "low" budget sound what would be best? That's why the panasonic SA-XR55K sounded good for the "performance" and $$. Now on to the speakers: IF I spend the $250 for the panny, what speakers would "perform" well with it (fronts, center & satellites) for the above criteria? I really do appreciate all your inputs so far Rick/Jan. Mastermind26 |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6357 Registered: May-04 | Mutual conductance means the interaction between the + and - legs of the cable. It is something you don't want much of. You'll have plenty of "conductance" with the 14AWG HD cable. Yeah, I just don't do recommendations on gear. I will suggest you look at these two sites; |
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New member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 10 Registered: Oct-05 | So mutual conductance is "noise" interference from the opposite cable running along side? I think I understand, but how does twisting zero out this interaction if they run along side but twisted? I will visit the sites recommended as soon as I finish with this reply. BTW, the Mits. speakers are: model M-S4200. They have a min Watt rating of 7.5 and max of 100. That's all I have on these. What do you think of these speakers? Mastermind26 |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6361 Registered: May-04 | I don't know that I can give a good simple answer to twisting vs. parallel runs. How about I let Mr. Elliott do the talking. If you want a good, detailed explanation, I'm sure you can find it here. http://sound.westhost.com/site-map.htm |
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Bronze Member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 12 Registered: Oct-05 | Thank you! This site has everything. I have read the portions for speaker cable and cable impedance/inductance/capacitance. It is VERY informative. That is an excellent site. Many, many thanx! I tried visiting the above sites for the gear, but my computer needed to be used so I haven't really seen what they have. I will do this shortly. I did visit the HD yesterday and did see the cables sold. I'm hesitant to buy the cables just yet since I really don't have the new amp (panny) yet. I'll hold off to see what I buy/will need to buy first. Also, would it make sense to purchase some of the Mirollers or "spikes" I have been reading about else where? The idea being saving my $$ and improving the sound from my old mits. and using the $$ to purchase the satellites/center and sub. Mastermind26 |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6371 Registered: May-04 | That depends on what you expect the rollers or spikes to do for your system. Read through this thread and see if it answers any questions: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/168725.html |
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Bronze Member Username: Mastermind26SF, CA USA Post Number: 13 Registered: Oct-05 | Well I wanted the rollers to "tighten" (I guess) the sound respose from my old mits to get better sound. I wanted to use them on my system (to be or whatever) to "clean out" any vibration interference. Not sure on the whole thing since I tend to be kind'a skeptical about "too good to be true" things. Thoughts, ideas? Mastermind26 |
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