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New member Username: BrijeshBudapestHungary Post Number: 8 Registered: Jul-04 | Ok guys ... this one has the potential of becoming an unending debate ... but what is ur opinion ... I i am using electrostatic speakers .. what will improve the sound the system more ... a Tube Pre-amp or Tube power amp ... and why ? Any suggestions in the $2000 range? I just want to make one investment right now ... so pls put on ur thinking caps and help a fellow audioholic. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Excuse me, but asking what will improve you system more is akin to asking what will make me healthier. The information you provide is so slight that there is no answer to you question. Why do you feel a tube whatever would make your system better? What are you expecting from tubes that you think is better than what you presently own? What do you own? And what are you hearing right now that is not to your liking? What are you hearing now that is to your liking? We need to know something about the patient before we can diagnose the ailment. I personally own McIntosh tubes and use tubes for pre and power amp and have/had tubes in tuner and CD sources. I believe tubes are far superior to most solid state but there are good tubes and not so good tubes. We also need to have an idea what you have access to buying before we can make a suggestion that is relevant to your situation. Unison Research seems to be widely available throughout Europe and have had good write ups but without more information I can't make a recommendation. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Read the last few sessions of posts on this thread for some ideas of what tubes are going to give your system: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/92590.html |
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New member Username: BrijeshBudapestHungary Post Number: 9 Registered: Jul-04 | Wow ! ... i love the passionate irritation in your message .. It really shines thru that u like ur Hi-fi and are thoroughly disgusted by the vagueness of this question !!! Well let me then clarify ... and since u answered a part of the question in ur message that tubes sound much better than solid state .. and also the fact that not all tubes are good. I am currently using a pair of electrostatic speakers called "Cadence" .. It is a brand from India ... u might have heard of it .. or if not - http://www.cadenceaudio.com , Now after u go thru their site .. u might even ask me a more angry question ... they also make tube amps, so why not buy them .. why the #%^k post this message. The answer is - i do not want to go in for an integrated tube amp and their power amps are way to expensive for me - but darn good... need to go in for separate pre/power amp. Thus am looking for advice. I currently use an "Audio Analogue Puccini amplifier" ... a beauty of an amp ... sounds very much like tubes ... but it has shortcomings .. primarily on power front while driving the ESLs ... so coming back to the question .. Did u in the past ever use just a tube pre-amp and a solid state amp ... or vice versa ... Did u notice any difference between the two set-ups .. if yes what ... Do the tubes pre and power amp combination make the sound a bit "muddy" or over sweet. Given the basic fact that pre-amp is where the seperation of the music to the appropriate circuitry and the other nice stuff happens before it gets amplified by the power amp ... will it make sense to put the tubes there to attain more benefits and then perhaps use a high quality solid state power amp like the Quad - for instance. Open to suggestions and looking forward to hear ur reply.. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I will respond when I have time to completely answer your questions. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Sorry, to sound testy but, as a former audio salesperson I had lots of requests for making a system sound better when there was no idea what the client was hearing currently. I still don't know exactly what you are hearing, and, more importantly, want to hear when you buy something new, other than I assume you want more power than the Puccini can produce. I also assume you are looking for something that will provide more separation than your integrated can manage. I first of all have to get it out - The puccini is Italian!!! Whatta yu wanna mess with somethin' Italian for? Itsa perfect as is otherwise they woulda made it different!!! OK, now on to the matter at hand. The Puccini can produce over 40 watts per channel, that means you are going to have to step up quite a bit in power to get substantially higher volume levels. This issue is dealt with in "Definitions and Descriptions" if you want more of a formula for how power and volume go together. If power is a necessity then you have to have a fairly deep set of pockets or a solid state amp or buy used gear. The down side to high powered tube power amps, after you have bought them, is the tubes do wear out and need replacement periodically. How often is determined by the amp's design and how much use the amp sees in a year's time. Many tube amps can go five years without needing tubes and I have seen amps that have gone fifteen years (but those amps were very conservative in design and got little use). When the time comes there is going to be a cost of about $100 to as much as $500 to retube the amp (good KT88's run at least $49 and can go over $200 a matched pair so those cost figures presume a push pull amp of about 100 watts; and, obviously, as you get higher wattage you have more tubes to replace). You have to decide whether the sound of a tube power amp is the choice for your budget. Ultimately I chose to have tubes in both pre and power amps. Pre amps, as the conventional thinking goes, are the best place for tubes for several reasons. Firstly, tubes are better at low level signals than transistors given the same quality level of product. Secondly, pre amp tubes can last much longer than power tubes and cost substantially less than power tubes to replace. You also have a market of New Old Stock pre amp tubes that are some of the best tubes ever made, if you want to pay the price, that does not exist for power tubes. The down side of pre amp tubes is you are dealing with low level signals that can easily get messed up with the microphonics of a small signal pre amp tube. Isolation of a tube per amp is much more important than with solid state. The Puccini is not hard to place and get good sound but a tube pre amp will benefit from something other than an "it has to go here" approach to placement. You can buy a tube pre amp and not be concerned about placement but you will benefit from care in placement and some isolation devices. Tube pre amps are bountiful in a wide price range that isn't reflective of cost per watt as it is in a power amp. You are buying sound quality and, in some cases, features, when you raise the price of a tube pre amp. Your comments about muddying or oversweetening the sound cause me to wonder what you are expecting from tubes that you think doesn't exist in transistors. If you have read or been told that tubes are colored or have "pleasant" distortions and this has put you on to tubes I would warn you that you are looking for the wrong solution. Good tubes are not colored and the distortion product they have is different from solid state but that is not why you buy tubes. Tubes, to those who use them and love them, are a better way to listen to music, offering more of what is on the source without the harsh, cold sound of transistors. If you are looking for a piece of equipment that will provide a band aid to a sound you do not like, tubes are not the answer. If, on the other hand, you think tubes might offer a more involving musical experience, you might want to consider several options. I would suggest you look at buying a tube pre amp first if you want sound quality at the same volume level you currently have with the Puccini. If you want more volume right away you need to look at a more powerful amp that clips more gracefully than the Audio Analogue piece you own. If that is your desire over anything else right now, I would suggest you look to a MOSFET power amp. MOSFET's have the reputation of sounding more "tubelike" that bipolar transistors and can remove that coldness that you might not want to hear from an amp. They are priced similarly to bipolar amps and, like tubes, they can use simple circuits. With a MOSFET power amp you can have an experience that combines the best of both worlds of tube and solid state with few of the drawbacks. Of course, I'm telling you what a salesperson would tell you; MOSFET's have a sound that is uniquely their own and you have to know the strengths and weaknesses of these devices also. But MOSFET's, when done well, are the closest approach to combining tubes and transistors. That is why you see them so often paired with tubes to complete the sound or paired with bipolar transistors to repair the sound. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1521 Registered: Dec-03 | when I get a chance I will post with some ideas also. I've been going tube crazy lately (4) preamps and (6) amps. what is the specs on your speakers. (ohm) (eff db) do they get good bass? are you using a sub? my first inclination is tube preamp with a good and powerful solid state amp. I'm assuming the speakers are 4 ohm and not very efficent 86db or less. so a good solidstate amp would probably be in order. plus it may help out in the bass department where your speakers may lack a little and a tube amp won't help that. unless your running a sub or subs. so if you can respond to some of my rattling on i should be able to be more help. also what sound are you looking for? lucious or more toward accurate or even sterile? are your speakers colored? do they have pronounced highs or mids? |
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New member Username: BrijeshBudapestHungary Post Number: 10 Registered: Jul-04 | To Vigne's Post: --------------- Thx for the detailed reply ... When i say muddied - i am really referring to the masking of high frequencies that may happen and a bass which is not very fast and tight ... U r right that this may be my assumption ..... The reason for these may be because of what i have heard so far in the Cadence power amp which i heard, ITs quite possible that other tube power amps sound very different. Volume levels are not really concern or desire. What i want from the sound is good seperation, soundstaging - that is accurate, not overly accentuated. When i listen to a piece of music like "Miles Davis - Kind of Blue" with just 3-4 different instruments playing - i do not want to hear them miles apart .. neither like currently where they sound sometime jostled together. I do not crave for gut wrenching bass either .. so from what u describe .. a tube pre-amp with a Solid state power amp sounds like a good option - atleast for me to try out. Your MOSFET idea sounds interesting .. any good brands that u can suggest - both for the pre and power amp will be helpful - By the way - What do u own. Kegger ------ HEre are specs for my speakers - The CADENCE AMAYA (ES MK II) Specifications Principle : hybrid. Bass : Dynamic low frequency cone system; bass reflex. Mid/High Frequency : Electrostatic. Crossover : Linkwitz filters with additional elliptical damping characteristics. Crossover Frequency : 950 Hz. Sensitivity : 91 dB Amplifier Requirements : 50 - 200 Watts RMS. Nominal Impedance : 8 ohms. Frequency Response : 35 Hz - 30kHz (+- 3dB). Power Supply : Below 1 Watt. Protection : Built-in electrostatic protection up to 500 Watts(10ms) Operating Temperature Range : 10-40 degrees celcius. Operating Humidity Range : Below 90% RH. Charge-up Time : Less than 1 second. Cabinet Material : 25 mm MDF throughout. Finish : Teak or Mahogany veneer, plantation certified. Dimensions : 1080mm/330mm/370mm(HxWxD) Width of electrostatic unit : 485mm Copied from their website ! I am not using a sub currently .. These speakers have pretty high sensitivity, contrary to what u thought. They churn out pretty good bass - thanx to their fast woofer - remeber its a hybrid. I hate sterile sound ... i do not wish my speakers and amps only job to keep dissecting the recordings to show how good or bad they are. My main aim is to enjoy the music .. in a real world where not all recordings are perfect. So a bit on the luscious side is preferrable for me - as i do not listen to them at very high volumes either. I would not say that the speakers are colored - They are reasonably neutral - Sometimes i do think that they go overboard on the highs - but am not sure whether its a matter of my amp or the room acoustics (Which is a different topic for a thesis altogether). Have not really played around too much with the placements etc so far. Brijesh |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I own McIntosh tube power amps from the 1960's and a Mac MR71 tube tuner paired to an Audible Illusions tube pre amp. If you are satisfied with the volume levels you are achieving with 40 watts per channel solid state (and you should be with 91dB efficiency speakers) you can look at several of the smaller tube power amps. Since tubes clip differently than S.S., you can usually scale back 10-20% on power, if need be, when going to tubes and still be happy with volume levels. Kegger can tell you about his experience with a Dynaco Stereo 70 tube power amp. I would argue that what you hear most often from a S.S. amp in the bass response is not as accurate to the real sound of instruments playing in a real acoustic space as what you will hear from a good tube amp. The sound of an upright bass is more natural sounding through a good tube amp than any S.S. I have heard in a comparable price range. When you get to rock and you want some slam the S.S. may be a better choice but still not necessarily as accurate. And once you have lived with tubes for a while you start to notice the difference in the bass quality from a S.S. amp and often find it annoying. That's my opinion.* I would stay with a tube pre amp if you are looking for the separation of instrumental lines and a sense of performers in the acoustic the music was recorded in. MOSFETs are less of a solution in the pre amp stages since a good tube pre amp is not difficult and need not be that expensive to build. MOSFETs become a better alternative in the power amp section for the reasons I laid out above as the negatives to a tube power amp. By shopping the pre owned market you can find a wide selection of what are very good pre amps at less than $700 depending on what you are looking for in sound and features. A basic tube pre amp can be as little as $250 on the used market. I seldom make brand recommendations on the forum. I have no idea what any one person is going to like, or have access to, and I would prefer you go read and listen to get some ideas. The main point I always stressed with my clients was to have an idea how to achieve synergy with all their components. This means all pieces are essentially of the same character and not mixing ying and yang. To do this you really need a sense of what your system is doing and what you want it to do. You also, I think, need to know what live music sounds like. Often I suggested clients hear some live music before they made a decision. It is too easy to convince yourself that a more "hifi" sounding piece of equipment is good when you are in the showroom if you haven't got a good reference on what music sounds like. * What determines the response of a tube power amp, and especially the bass response, comes down to two items. Beyond the basic circuitry of a tube amp, the largest determining factor in the sound is the quality of the output transformers. When tubes were the only choice transformers were the key to good sound and the classic amps of the 50's and 60's were based on extremely good transformer design and execution. That quality of transformer is difficult to match today until you are spending quite a bit of money, but the transformer is still the key to performance. I would rather look at a used high end power amp where the money has gone into the transformers than a new amp, for similar dollars, that may skimp on transformer design. (Pre amps do not normally use output transformers.) Tubes are also the determinant of sound quality and often the tubes that come in new amps are not the best sounding tubes available. Tubes are picked for various reasons and one factor is the availability of spares in the future. Often changing to a higher quality tube than what is stock issue will alter the sound of a tube pre or power amp to the benefit of the sound quality. One benefit most tube owners prefer in their gear is the ability to customize the sound to the need of their system by changing tube brand or type. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I own McIntosh tube power amps from the 1960's and a Mac MR71 tube tuner paired to an Audible Illusions tube pre amp. If you are satisfied with the volume levels you are achieving with 40 watts per channel solid state (and you should be with 91dB efficiency speakers) you can look at several of the smaller tube power amps. Since tubes clip differently than S.S., you can usually scale back 10-20% on power, if need be, when going to tubes and still be happy with volume levels. Kegger can tell you about his experience with a Dynaco Stereo 70 tube power amp. I would argue that what you hear most often from a S.S. amp in the bass response is not as accurate to the real sound of instruments playing in a real acoustic space as what you will hear from a good tube amp. The sound of an upright bass is more natural sounding through a good tube amp than any S.S. I have heard in a comparable price range. When you get to rock and you want some slam the S.S. may be a better choice but still not necessarily as accurate. And once you have lived with tubes for a while you start to notice the difference in the bass quality from a S.S. amp and often find it annoying. That's my opinion.* I would stay with a tube pre amp if you are looking for the separation of instrumental lines and a sense of performers in the acoustic the music was recorded in. MOSFETs are less of a solution in the pre amp stages since a good tube pre amp is not difficult and need not be that expensive to build. MOSFETs become a better alternative in the power amp section for the reasons I laid out above as the negatives to a tube power amp. By shopping the pre owned market you can find a wide selection of what are very good pre amps at less than $700 depending on what you are looking for in sound and features. A basic tube pre amp can be as little as $250 on the used market. I seldom make brand recommendations on the forum. I have no idea what any one person is going to like, or have access to, and I would prefer you go read and listen to get some ideas. The main point I always stressed with my clients was to have an idea how to achieve synergy with all their components. This means all pieces are essentially of the same character and not mixing ying and yang. To do this you really need a sense of what your system is doing and what you want it to do. You also, I think, need to know what live music sounds like. Often I suggested clients hear some live music before they made a decision. It is too easy to convince yourself that a more "hifi" sounding piece of equipment is good when you are in the showroom if you haven't got a good reference on what music sounds like. * What determines the response of a tube power amp, and especially the bass response, comes down to two items. Beyond the basic circuitry of a tube amp, the largest determining factor in the sound is the quality of the output transformers. When tubes were the only choice transformers were the key to good sound and the classic amps of the 50's and 60's were based on extremely good transformer design and execution. That quality of transformer is difficult to match today until you are spending quite a bit of money, but the transformer is still the key to performance. I would rather look at a used high end power amp where the money has gone into the transformers than a new amp, for similar dollars, that may skimp on transformer design. (Pre amps do not normally use output transformers.) Tubes are also the determinant of sound quality and often the tubes that come in new amps are not the best sounding tubes available. Tubes are picked for various reasons and one factor is the availability of spares in the future. Often changing to a higher quality tube than what is stock issue will alter the sound of a tube pre or power amp to the benefit of the sound quality. One benefit most tube owners prefer in their gear is the ability to customize the sound to the need of their system by changing tube brand or type. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1522 Registered: Dec-03 | well in my experience lately both the preamp and amp make great music and either can be used by themselves or together. I personally believe you get more from the amp then you do the preamp. my original thinking based on what i thought you had. "speaker wise" led me to tube preamp with ss amp. since the realization of your speakers has changed so have i. now this is something that jan had told me then i disovered it on my own. older tube equipment both preamps and amps tend to roll off on the highs and lows and are slower in the bass. so in my oppinion you could use ss preamp and newer tube amp. or "new" tube preamp and tube amp. now with the sens of your speakers i would suggest an amp with power of about 40-50 wpc upto about 100. that should give you plenty of power while staying in the "good sound" region and not to crazily priced. for newer equipment rogue amps are priced and made well their preamps are very nice also. the rogue 66 preamp and m120 mono blocks would make a great combonation. the 66 comes with remote or phono stage. the m120 mono blocks are 120 a channel linear or 60 a channel triode "perfect for your speakers" those amps have a switch to change them to suit your needs. hears a couple links to audiogon for both amp and preamp. getting both would run you about $2100 now mind you this is just one suggestion, their are so many tube amps and preamps out their that i haven't seen or heard. but i have heard these and think they would do wonderful with your setup. and i would definatley look into used. quality new tube gear can get very very expensive. another of the newer lines i've listened to a lot is audio research. when i say newer i mean i've heard their newer stuff. they've been around forever. you can get good prices on audio research stuff to on audiogon. i think with the sound you are looking for you want newer tube audio equipment. and when i say newer i mean the last 10-15 years. not 20-40 year old equipment. that's not to say that 20-40 year old stuff can't give you what your looking for but in my oppinion it would need to be modded equipment. some of the modded equipment can be incredable but how do we know which and by whome? happy to try an answer any more questions you may have. |
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J. Vigne Unregistered guest | What Kegger is referring to is often called "new" school tube sound vs. "old" school tube sound. It is only within the last 25 years that passive parts such as capacitors, wiring, resistors, etc. have had much attention paid to them in how they affect the sound of audio equipment. Forty year old equipment like the McIntosh amps that I own have excellent circuitry and all parts were held to the tightest tolerances allowable for the day. These amps were manufactured with carbon resistors and paper in oil caps which were the acceptable items in the 60's. When these internal passive parts are upgraded to poly caps and metal film resistors the sound of the amp is changed from "old" school sound to a more nuetral "new" school sound. And there are plenty of parts and mod kits available for just about any old tube amp if you are someone who enjoys the smell of solder in the morning. There are enough designers who like the old sound of tubes, with a more pronounced mid and softer bass and treble, that there are amps you can find brand new in stores that have a decidedly "old" school sound. Many designers have utilized these upgraded (in the opinion of some) parts and represent a "new" school of tube sound that is more nuetral and presents a flatter response with more extended highs and tighter bass. Neither is necessarilly wrong but merely a matter of taste. If you listen to old school transistors you have similar problems in that the parts are affecting the sound. The results with S.S. is a harder edge to the sound and still a bass and treble that is less refined (again, in some people's opinion) than new school S.S. And there are people who prefer this sound as well as those who prefer old school tube sound. I will tell you that some "old" school tubes are so absolutely gorgeous to listen to that many people forgive the minor dificiencies and want nothing but those marvelous vocals of a Marantz 7C, Dynaco PAS or Conrad Johnson PV5. They are seductive to the point of being hard to turn off. Many an audiophile has gone on to new school sound, in tubes or S.S., and regretted the move to this day. That said, the bottom line, literally, on tube amps and bass response is still the transformer. And, as I have stated, the new transformers seldom are as good as old school transformers simply because transformers for audio are now more common in low quality public address systems than in high end audio. Good trnsformers exist but they are expensive because they are low production, specialty items today. Tube amps have an inherently higher output impedance vs. S.S. If you pair the wrong speaker with a tube amp that has a higher output impedance you will get a soft bass. That is merely a transfer function and represents, possibly, a poor choice in matching components. The market in high end speakers has gone to designers who sometimes create products as if they never had to be attached to an amplifier. High end audio is littered with Infinity's, Avalons, Theils, Dunlevy's and on and on that are terribly difficult loads for amplifiers. These speakers demand an amplifier that is capable of extremely high current and has the abilty to arc weld into a dead short. Tube amps do not perform these functions well. Tubes are voltage driven devices where bipolar transistors are current driven. (This is another area where MOSFET's are more similar to tubes.) Tubes will prefer a smooth impedance with a fairly simple X-over design. Your speakers list: "Crossover : Linkwitz filters with additional elliptical damping characteristics." There is no indication of what order X-over your speakers utilize and I have no idea what "additional elliptical damping characteristics" are. The electrical load of your speakers may not be the best match with tubes of any school. I believe I would proceed with a call to the manufacturer to get a recommendation from them as to the ability of tubes to adequately drive their speakers. I would certain assume they can be used with tubes, since the company builds tube amps, but they may have some useful information about what to look for in tubes that will match well with your current speakers. Their web page confuses me as they produce tubes that output either (approx.) 36 watts or 200 watts. And there is insufficient technical wording to make any decision about what their intentions for their speakers really are all about. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2111 Registered: Dec-03 | Brijesh, A bit more about the rest of your system might be helpful, too. I like the look of Cadence, but have never heard anything they make. I, too, am wondering about tube (aka "valve") amps. Interesting and informative stuff, all! |