I bought B&W speakers 603 S3 which have the rating of 150W RMS and for these I also bought Yamaha receiver RX-V740 which have the rating of 95W RMS for each channel. This combination is working fine but In think that amplifier rating is much lower than speakers. I need to increase the volume more than 60% to listen to the music. Should I change the amplifier for some higher ratings(more RMS). Need some technical advice that for such speakers what should be the rating of amplifier and which brand of amplifier will give more clarity of sound. Thanks
Barry
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Posted on
The rating in Watt depends on the brand. Some brands or really conservative like NAD, some other brands just quote ratings that are way to high. I'm using a NAD c320bee rated at 2x50W with my B&W 603's but that is not a problem at all. More power like the NAD c352 or c372 is better yes but not a necessity.
About the clarity of sound. That's just personal opinion so you have to go listen for yourself at a shop.
If you like the sound of this combination don't worry about it and just turn it up. Just be careful you don't overtax the Yamaha's rather limited power supply to distortion and damage those nice B&W's.
Watts don't really relate to the actual performance of either the speaker or the amplifier. The reason is that the speaker's impedance varies with frequency. The nominal value of a speaker is typically 8 ohms, but in fact this is an averaged figure. If you supply a signal to an 8-ohm speaker, its actual impedance changes as you change the frequency of the signal and it can change a lot! Some speakers will go all the way down to below 2 ohms at the bass or midrange frequencies, and they can go all the way up to 50 or more ohms in mid-bass or high midrange frequencies.
Why is impedance important? Because the resistive value of the speaker is directly related to how much current has to course through the speaker to maintain the power. You need to maintain a certain voltage across the terminals of the speaker. Volts = Current * Resistance. If you halve the resistance, you must double the Current. But Watts = Volts * Current. If you double the Current, you must double the power to keep the same volts across the terminals! So the higher the nominal impedance, the easier it is to drive the speaker, but of course that's not all.
Another factor to look at is the efficiency of a speaker. Generally, efficiency is described in db/w/m for a 1khz tone. The average efficiency nowadays is around 87 db/w/m. So, if you supplied a 1khz tone with 1 watt of power to an average speaker you would get 87db from 1 metre away. Now every 3db you go up, you double the volume. In other words if you had an 90db/w/m speaker, the same signal as above would sound twice as loud from 1 metre away! An inefficient speaker at 84 db/w/m would sound almost half as loud as an average speaker for the same signal.
The 603S3 is 90db/w/m with an 8ohm rating which should mean it is an easy load and quite efficient. The Yamaha should have no problems driving them to quite loud levels.
It may be that the room is large or the speakers are placed such that they don't couple to the room space well enough to generate high SPLs - or you could just really like it LOUD! If you have an SPL meter, you can work out exactly how loud you tend to play stuff. If, at your listening position, it is higher than 100db when you are listening, then you do like it loud and perhaps you need to think of an alternative solution.
Clarity is a different issue. If you're turning up the volume because it's not clear enough, but you accept it's loud, then you're now discussing the performance of the preamp stage in the Yamaha, not the power stage. My experience with most surround sound amps (like the Yamaha) is that they are not as clean or clear as most 2-channel amps. The problem with this is that most receivers don't allow you to bypass the preamp stage and use it as a power amp. They almost always stay in circuit. If it is possible to genuinely bypass the circuit in the receiver, then you could consider an external quality processor to get back the resolution and clarity. However, if you can't do this, you'd be looking at a different amplifer to solve the problem (ouch). Incidentally many receivers have a multi-input section. Although this bypasses the digital processing part of the preamp, it still goes through the analogue part of it where things usually get messed up.
There is another solution to this problem. You could go for an audiophile solution with a separate 2-channel amplifier to drive the front two speakers, and use this as a slave for surround sound duties. Many audiophile amplifiers do not have 70watts, let alone 150watts output! But remember the story about watts - it's really a story about current (amps)! Most audiophile amplifiers can swing quite a few amps which gives great grip and control, even though they seem to be low powered. Anyway, the best solution in this case would be to use a separate CD player's analogue output to the stereo amplifier for 2-channel, and a separate DVD player for surround sound. If you only want to use a DVD player, then you could use its analogue outputs to the 2-channel amp and its digital output to the surround sound amp. Typically (but not always) CD players sound better than DVD players.
I'm not sure if this has helped. If not, please accept my apologies!
I'm sorry I'm not knowledgeable to help with your question at all. But I'm curious how you like your 603s? I'm seriously considering them and don't want to spend more $$$ for the 604s if there's not a significant difference. Have you been happy with the speakers overall?
Thanks
TL
Barry
Unregistered guest
Posted on
TPL, I just got the 603's. Although I had to stretch my budget to buy them. Originally went for the 602's which are also really nice but they lacked some dynamics in the middle and bass region compared to the 603's. They make a very nice couple with my NAD c320bee amplifier. Haven't heard the 604's.
TPL, the 603s are ok, but if you want better fidelity it might suit you to spend the same money on smaller, better quality speakers. In my opinion the 603s are great as fronts for surround sound or if you need to fill a big room, but for clarity and better resolution you could consider other options such as Dynaudio Audience 42's, Totem Dreamcatchers, AVI Neutron IV, PMC. When you add the stands, all these speakers would be about the same price as the 603s but give you a very different result. They may not be as big scale, but musically they do very different things. This is partly because the manufacturer is making a smaller cabinet with less drive units. Therefore, he can afford to put more quality into those parts.
I strongly suggest you get a demo at a dealer and do some comparisons. Then you'll have a better idea of what you really want. In the end you may choose the 603s, but at least you will be choosing from having built a perspective on what's available.
FYI, I work at a dealer's in the UK and I know almost all the above speakers. This is why I am contributing to this discussion.
Thanks for the help - I appreciate the suggestions. My problem is partly WAF. I want a reasonable set of speakers. I also have to keep the wife happy. Negotiations are ongoing and both sides have made concessions but it appears the outcome will be as follows:
A reasonably well built, pretty, unobtrusive floor stander is acceptable. She would prefer small bookshelf (Bose) units - in the furniture (We have cabinets with replaceable panels in the doors to house speakers in). This might be OK - but a speaker of ANY reasonable size would almost certainly have to lay on it's side. I wonder if the compromises of putting a speaker on it's side/inside a cabinet would outweigh any improvement in quality I'd get from a well made bookshelf... Bookshelf speakers on stands were her one veto - she hates the look, and I have to agree it would look odd in our room. I've used this as an excuse to look at floorstanders...
I'd love to get the 704s. Not sure I can justify that expense. I'm thinking if I start with the 600 series, maybe in time moving up to the 704s would be doable. Now I'm afraid you'll tell me to get the 705s. I just can't see buying a great looking/sounding $1500 speaker and lying it on it's side in a cabinet. That can't be the right approach, can it?
Shahid - Sorry - didn't mean to monopolize your topic.
On its side, in a cabinet, please no, I beg you...
Seriously, that would be a bad idea. Perhaps the Totems would be OK , but the Dynaudios and 705s generate a lot of energy. The cabinet would undoubtedly vibrate a great deal and ruin a lot of the fidelity you should get from the speaker.
704s are in a completely different league. Speakers in this range make many more demands of the amplifiers driving them. I don't know what amplification you're using so I can't comment. If you want discreet floorstanders, (i.e. smaller and/or less obtrusive than the 603) here are a few suggestions:
Rega Alya - less money than the B&W, short floorstander. Not as big sound, but very rhythmic. Not for bass heads but very engaging and easy to drive.
Rega Ela - a little more money than the B&W. Bass not as obvious (good), easy to drive, engaging and rhythmic.
focal jmlab 714 - similar money to the B&W here, good looking, discreet, slimmer than the B&W, Decent allround sound is bigger than the Rega but not as fruity as the B&W, engaging.
Totem Arro - much more money than the 603 at around $1500 here but it's Canadian so check price in your area, very narrow - only 5 inches wide and not tall - very cute (WAF approval rating usually high) with a big sound for such a small speaker, a favourite of mine, but a bit difficult to drive, so ensure your amp can drive it properly. Stunningly good in many ways.
Thanks a lot. I figured if I mentioned laying a 705 on it's side in a cabinet it would turn your stomach.
I think I want floorstanders and they don't necessarily have to be small (but definitely can't be huge). They must be pretty or cute and not clash with our decidedly not modern decor. I think the 704s would be great - they are elegant and understated enough to fit anywhere, and the quality of their build makes them great to look at. Unfortunately you pay $2200 for that.
I don't yet have any amplification - hence the reason I was initially drawn to this thread. I'm doing the home theater thing - and frankly the system will be used mostly for this - but I want speakers that are good for music. Once I decide on the speakers I'll have to figure out which receiver will be a good match.
Ah! Right. OK. I kind of get where you're coming from. The great thing about B&W generally is that they make very well matched speaker systems of good quality. But you're right that the 700 series is a big step up from the 600 series in terms of price. When you look closely at the speakers you can see why this is the case.
The thing is, from my initial post above, you can see that different speakers make different demands on amplifiers. Hypothetically speaking, if you decided that the budget allowed for both 6 and 700 series, you would have to choose a very different amplifier for the job. In the case of the 600 series, these are easy to drive and place. In most rooms, you could get away with most amps such as NAD T743 or T753, Yamaha RX-V640 or 740, Denon 2805 or 3805 etc. Once you go to the 700 series which is more difficult to control (and remember this is times 5 at least), you start to have to consider NAD T773, Rotel 1067 or Arcam AVR300 as minima. If you don't then the amp has problems driving the speakers properly and you either get overblown bass or shrieky treble or a flat undynamic sound.
You need to balance the cost quite carefuly in this situation and consider the whole system rather than starting with just one aspect of it. The best advice to give you here is this: you need to go to a dealer or two for a chat and a look at some solutions. You have WAF factor to consider, and she needs to be there in the initial stages to ensure that the solution is acceptable to her. Try to get her to say yes to more than one speaker solution in terms of look to give you options in terms of the end result. Then the dealer can tell you what amp you would need to drive each solution (don't prompt him with a suggested amp, ask him what amp he would recommend with it). Eventually, this will give you a good mental picture of the solutions you can afford. Then book demos of them. Try to listen to each solution. If he can't do that, ask if you could at least listen to the front part of the solution (i.e. DVD/amp/front speakers) to see which solution is closest to your ideal. Listen to music in this situation. It focusses you on the sound quality and presentation (films can be distracting due to the video element). Then when you've chosen your stereo preference, he can add the surround sound element to ensure this is the solution you want. try to buy from a dealer who will demo stuff. His brief is to make a sale. Your brief is to get as much knowledge from him and getting him to understand where you're coming from before handing over your cash! A specialist tends to be a bit more enthusiastic and will more happily guide you in terms of what you need and can afford.
Incidentally, you said one thing that concerned me - you said that the 704s can go pretty much anywhere. In my experience that's not the case. 704s need a fair amount of space around them and need to be toed in (angled in) quite sharply. In other words they need to be about 60cm from the rear wall and preferably not next to side walls. If you put them just in front of a rear wall, they will sound overblown because they have a big bass sound and will get the wall to join in the party. Also, if you don't angle them in to face the main listening spot, they will give an indistinct vague flat image. 600 series speakers don't need as much toe-in, but they also need a fair amount of free space, if not as much as 700 series. By the way, have you seen the 700 series centre speaker? It's quite big...
Finally, don't forget the DVD player. They do not all sound the same. The Pioneers have a great picture. Their internal D/A convertors are not very good so they sound pretty bad, but most Pioneers are used as transports so they sound better when used in this way. They're also universal players meaning they can play DVD-A and SACD as well as everything else under the sun. Of course, a jack of all trades is master of none, so this is partly why there is a penalty in terms of sound quality. If you can have a look at players from these makes too - Rotel, Arcam, NAD. The Rotel and Arcam are in a different price range to the NADs, Pioneers etc. and the sound quality shows through, even when using them purely as transports (weird that, don't you think?).
Phew! I hope this helps, TPL.
Shahid, please forgive me for hijacking this thread. I hope it's been of some use to you. If you have any more questions I'll try to keep coming back (if you like).
Thanks to Barry, therealelitefan, Frank and TPL for all this discussion. As far as 603 speakers are concerned, I am very happy them. They are good in listening to the music as well as their output while seeing movies. I am thinking about changing Yamaha amplifier and would buy Denon or NAD later this year. Is their any suggestion from anyone of buying which amplifier that will be more suitable to these 603's
First let me apologize because I feel my responses have led this thread astray.
Now then, the Yamaha is a very good amplifier. The volume control of most amplifiers has similar gain, so if you turn up to 60% with the Yamaha, you will probably do the same with a Denon/Marantz/Pioneer at the same sort of price, irrespective of the power rating. If you really wish to improve on clarity/transparency, you need to improve on the preamp section and for this you would need to look further up the chain, such as Rotel 1056 or Arcam AVR300 (with which you could biamp the front speakers). However, even with these higher end receivers, you may still turn up to 60% if that is the volume at which you like to listen.
The loudness of the speaker in a room is also a function of the size of the room. This means that the effectiveness of a speaker to energize the room space depends a bit on the volume, shape and construction materials of the room. If you tell us these, we may be able to help you better. The fact is that in my demonstration room of just 5metres by 3metres, I often turn up even the Arcam AVR300 beyond 60% of the volume with B&W, focal jmlab and Dynaudio speakers, just to get the volume to be realistic. The important thing is that the sound is still clean, clear and not distorting - and that there is enough ventilation above the amp to keep the amp cool.
So what size room and where are the speakers placed in relation to your listening position?
If you have an SPL meter, you can work out exactly how loud you tend to play stuff. If, at your listening position, it is higher than 100db when you are listening, then you do like it loud and perhaps you need to think of an alternative solution.