Though I'm a music and technology/gadget lover, I'm an admitted novice to hi-end audio. As I've been exploring the idea of upgrading to a home theater I've learned a lot. I had heard enough dubious things about Bose that what I read here didn't suprise me - but the more I think about it the more I wonder about whether or not some of it is unfair.
Admittedly - I have only the last months worth of reading to base my judgement on. But I suspect the overwhelming evidence supports the fact that the design/build quality of Bose is below what you should be able to expect for their price. That said I respect those who enjoy their sound (I haven't even auditioned any)and if that's how they want to spend their money that's their business.
More telling and concerning to me is the fact (?) that Bose will not allow side by side comparisons. I think any company in any business (esp if they claim to be "high-end") would invite side by side comparison of their product with their competitors. If they believe in their product they know they'll lose sometimes - but should come out ahead more often than not. This alone is the strongest negative issue against this product in my opinion.
As I have begun to audition other products an interesting thing has happened. Two products I have begun to seriously consider are made by Paradigm and B&W. I found them at different retailers. Both of these retailers sell ONLY this brand of speaker - making it impossible for me to compare them to each other or anything else. After doing some checking, at least for B&W, the ONLY retailers in my state which carry them carry ONLY B&W. I wonder if the same will be true of Paradigm.
It seems to me that even these other, more respected, companies are playing the same game. I don't know whether this is dictated by the speaker manufacturers, the retailers, or a quiet agreement between the two. It is also possible that my state (OK), a small fry market, just doesn't have enough demand to support as much free market competition. I doubt that though. I suspect there is on some level a realization that, as I have read here, once one enters the "higher-end" the return on additional investment and the real difference between products becomes rather small. The more I read the more I believe that the choice between B&W and Paradigm may have less effect on my enjoyment than the acoustics of my room. That being the case it would make more sense NOT to allow the consumer easy access to side by side comparison. It seems that these other companies may have learned something from Bose.
Maybe I'm just being paranoid. Is side by side comparison easy in other locations? Anyone agree?
I don't think it is a problem. I have a few high-end shops around me (Delaware) and they all stock at least 4 or 5 different manufacturers (one carries both B&W and Paradigm). The difference is Bose is carried by almost every chain that sells electronics. These chains all offer different brands yet Bose does not allow the comparison in these stores. Even if it was a scam from other speaker manufacturers, at least they'd have the integrity not to come right out and say something that implies they have no faith in their product.
J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Bose does not restrict how a store displays and demonstrates their products, though they do encourage a room devoted to their products away from other equipment. Many high end companies would like to have this much control and some (walk into a Linn dealer) can get by with it. When you get into a larger market place you will see Bose in the same room with other speakers hooked up through a switch box. But they way in which Bose systems are wired makes them difficult to show on a conventional switch box. Bose does, however, control most aspects of how their products are sold. They will not tolerate any bad mouthing of their equipment by a salesperson. They send out mystery shoppers to check what is being said about them in the stores. They are quite aware they are a product salespeople will lead few clients toward. They are also aware that most salespeople know why a client should or should not buy Bose products. And, to be fair, there are some salespeople who actually like Bose products just as there are clients who prefer Bose to other brands. Bose learned a very long time ago that most people today have no concept of what an instrument is suposed to sound like when it is reproduced over a decent audio system. Most people don't know that the bass response of a Bose product is among the worst possible choices. Same for every other aspect of Bose sound. If someone has not heard live music other than a rock concert in a football stadium how would they know how instruments are going to sound? And many choices in audio equipment have little to do with how the products sound. A salesperson who has not learned that lesson will not last long in any level of retail. In over 25 years of audio sales I have sold equipment simply because: it fit, it was the right color, it had a lot of knobs, it had very few knobs, the customer could afford it and (here is where Bose will win most arguments) the customer has heard of Bose and they have been told (in Bose advertisements and by Paul Harvey) they couldn't buy better than Bose. If the last example is the case for a purchase, many customers will feel uncomfortable if they are shown a product they have never heard about such as Paradigm, PSB, Monitor Audio or most other high end lines that only advertise in specialty magazines. Many customers will, since customers generally mistrust salespeople, think they are being taken advantage of when steered away from Bose. And many customers walk in a store and judge it by whether the store stocks Bose because it is the only name they know. If a salesperson does not acknowledge that many people want to buy Bose the customer will simply drive to another store that will sell them Bose. A salesperson that does not realize Bose is ALWAYS sold at retail mark up is throwing away money. Bose controls the pricing of their products and a dealer that discounts Bose will not have Bose very long. It is a line that will make up margin in a sale where a salesperson has to give away many other items to close the sale. This may sound distasteful to some of those reading this but if you don't think an audio store is in busines to make money you are fooling yourself. While most audio salespeople work where they do because they enjoy the products, they are trying to feed themselves and their family and have enough to buy a piece of equipment now and again. So Bose pricing policy is, in many ways, a good deal for a store. And if a client walks in the store asking for Bose a salesperson should acknowledge their request. How do you feel if you think you are smart enough to choose what you feel is a quality product and the salesperson tells you it is a pile of crap compared to what they have for sale. If you have not worked retail this may not make sense to those who feel the salesperson should always sell the best products; but, best is a relative term to each client. Sometimes Bose is the best they can buy. Maybe they will learn later that they shouldn't have spent the money on Bose and maybe they won't. Believe me, there are lots of people who have lived with their Bose systems for years and are quite happy with their purchase. That, to me, was always the final arbitter of whether a client got a good deal. Not what amount of money they got taken off the retail price but if they were happy with their purchase 6 months or 6 years down the road. I never had to go over and listen to their systems for long so if they were happy, and didn't feel cheated or that they should be looking for better sound, that was all I needed to do. And there are many that feel they got an excellent deal when they buy Bose. Go figure.
Now, as to other companies, no matter what size market you work in there will be competition between you and someone else. Mail order has been around for ages and the internet has simply made it harder for a good dealer to make money. Selling a particular product in one store in a market is not cheating the client. Would you expect a Honda dealer to have a Toyota, a Mitsubishi, a Nissan, a Ford, a Chevy ... well you should be getting the idea. If you want the best product it will take a little work on your part and you can't expect the dealer to do everything for you. If you walk into an audio store and they have Bose, Sony, Pioneer and Panasonic but no HK, NAD, PS Audio, Krell, Rowland, Theil, etc. what do you think of that store? Of course you think you want to go shop somewhere else. For years the concept of a store becoming a McIntosh dealer, or most other high end lines, meant they were good enough to be chosen to sell those lines and it represented to the customer they had chosen a good shop to do busines with. So I think you are looking at the situation from the perspective of "these guys are out to screw me". I'll get some attitude here and tell you if that's your attitude you are going to make life difficult for a few salespeople and yourself. Proprietary lines are meant to help the client and the dealer. The client should realize they are, more than likely, dealing with a store that has proven its ability to assist a client before, during and after the sale. Otherwise a company like Rega would not let them carry their product. Every store that gets into high end chooses what they want to sell and every company that manufactures high end chooses which dealers they want their products represented by. This is unlike Pioneer, Sony and so on that will sell their product to just about anyone. (I once took in a Marantz reciever that had been purchased at a tire store. How much help do you think that customer got on their intial purchase at the tire dealer? Free rotation?) And dealers are in business to make a profit, like it or not. A proprietary line allows them to have a corner on the market where they might be able to make a few percentage points more profit on a system. (And that isn't easy, or always the case, with internet sales available to everyone with a computer.) Let the dealer make a little money every now and then. If you don't there won't be a dealer in your neighborhood any longer. If they make money they will eventually have more lines to choose from. The dealers you should be worried about are the guys who sell "black box" or grey market items. Years ago, when I sold for Pacific Stereo, we had black box items that were identical to another stores merchandise but both stores had proprietary model numbers on the equipment. The customer was looking at the same product at both stores but they had different numbers so the client couldn't actually cross shop the systems. Pacific Stereo also had equipment that was made for them with a different name on the front. We had lots of profit in those items. Pacific Stereo is now out of business but that practice is not dead. Those are the dealers who are being dishonest.
J. Vigne, Very nice and thoughtful post. It is quite true that a store has to sell what people want to stay in business even if it's crap like Bose. I have a very good specialty store that feels that way about carrying SonyES. Their best receiver line is Marantz and they tell me people come in and won't even check out Marantz and want the Sony only because that's all they know. It's very frustrating for these guys but what can they do. As far as specialty stores and the variety of brands they carry I can only speak to the problems my local stores have had and I can tell you for a fact that all of my local stores have cut way back on brands and inventory in the last 3 or 4 years because of the lousy economy.Foot traffic is way down from 5 years ago and I live in a realitively prosperous area of the country. Until the economy really improves and people are again working at jobs that pay more than $7.00 and hour or so the casual audio buyer is just not going to be in the market. Groceries for the kids is a priority over audio/video for most people. I have two stores that in the 90's carried between 4 and 6 speaker brands and stocked alot of those and are down to no more than 2. Very sad situation. I have only one store that still carries several speakers and that's because the owner is a true audiophile and the store is his baby and that's they way he wants it. God bless him.
I'm glad to here my problem is not true everywhere. I can understand that there are pressures (beyond marketing) which may drive a retailer to limit selection.
Unfortunately it looks like I won't be able to audition things side by side.
TL
J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Posted on
TPL - Take a few discs that you are familiar with when you go to listen. Listen to as many as you can as close together in time as you can. Let the salesperson use a disc that they feel shows of their product (ask them to show you what the speakers can do and suggest they get something they know sounds good on the speakers; if they don't have something they use to demonstrate those particular speakers they probably are lazy or have got to the point they don't listen to their own demos anymore.) Ask for an audition in your system before you coomit totally to buying the product. I always could arrange a weeekend or overnight loan for a customer.