Help! Stupid Newbie Question
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Iain Unregistered guest | Hi guys. I'm writing in the hope that someone can help me with some information which will really help out my father-in-law. He has has a large collection of 33, 45 and 78 rpm discs from the 1950s, 60s and 70s, some of which he is now unable to play on a standard turntable due to the diameter of the spindles used to hold records in todays turntables. This is because he has punched out the centre of most of his discs so that they would fit a turntable which he purchased in the 1970s. That particular turntable had a central spindle with a very large diameter - about five times larger than the standard hole in the middle of your average record. In order to make his record player compatible with his records, he had to punch out the centre of his discs. However, he tells me that the vinyl on the discs had already been perforated in the exact areas where he needed to remove the material, which leads me to believe that this spindle format may (at some point) have been considered one of the LP industry's standard measurements. I guess that what he needs now is some sort of plastic sleeve to place over the spindle on his new record player in order to make his old records fit snugly against the central spindle of the turntable. Does anybody know if such accessories exist? If so, do they have a specific name? Is there anywhere that you can buy these damn things online?! Many thanks for any help given! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 1974 Registered: Dec-03 | Iain, Yes, they are available. Try Google or similar with the search string "45 rpm inserts". Also, in place of "inserts"; "adapters" or "spacers". They are called that because 45 rpm singles were made to be played, if necessary, with a much larger than normal spindle, as found on auto-changers, especially juke boxes. So, yes, you could punch out a perforated centre portion to make the larger hole for the larger spindle. Once you had done that, you could not play those discs with a smaller spindle, of course, unless you put in a spacer. You can still get a cheap, plastic, spacers, one for each record, or a metal e.g. aluminium cylinder to go around the small spindle to make it fit the larger holes. |
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Iain Unregistered guest | Hey John, Many thanks for your help - I'll go take a look right now! Many thanks, Iain. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2001 Registered: Dec-03 | Iain, You are welcome. Let us know if you get some. Congratulations to your father-in-law. Tell him to hang on to his collection! Vinyl LP is a superior medium to Cd.... |
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Bronze Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 87 Registered: Sep-04 | Well, if it'a any help, I noticed that even with bog standard turntables, often comes such an adapter. It lives on a small holding lug or spindle, just behind the tonearm. It is very large however, being the diameter of the entire space, were you to take out the spindle down-size adapter from the record. Now, I can imagine it might be quite easy to find one of these in a car boot sale, for instance. I've seen record decks going for about a pound at these.... I'm thinking you could easily buy an entire deck to get the adapter. Failing that, I bet your Hi-Fi dealer will have one in drawer somewhere. Give it a try. That is if I've understood correctly what it is he needs here. Best of luck, V |
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Bronze Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 88 Registered: Sep-04 | <john> "Vinyl LP is a superior medium to Cd...." Why is it, John? Mine sounds awful next to the CD player. Like someone's put a bucket over the speaker. More to the point.... any help in choosing a new deck would be appreciated. Cheers, V |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2557 Registered: Dec-03 | Varney, Why is it, John? I do not know. Many theories have been posted here. I can assert that it is not worse, as we were all once led to believe. For sound quality, anyway. There is a convenience factor, of course. I noticed better sound from DVD-A than from CD, then went back and dug out my old LPs. CD was, and is, first of all a convenience format, in my opinion. For turntables I have a Rega Planar 3, which I shall never replace. If you see one of those going cheap, and it is in good order, do not hesitate. In fact, even in bad order any part (motor; bearing etc.) can easily be replaced. The same model is still in production, with an improved tonearm, people say; not sure of the current price. There is also an NAD 533 which is made by Rega and it pretty well a Rega Planar 2 in all but name, as far as I can see. There is a range of new turntables called Pro-Ject, made in Czech Republic, that are getting outstanding reviews, for value for money, in the serious h-fi mags. The Pro-Ject "Debut" is around £150 I think and has a build-in phono pre-amp in case one's amp or receiver does not have a "phono" (also used to be called "disc") input. If it sounds like a bucket is over the speaker, and you are using a phono input (?), then the problem is likely to be the cartridge and/or stylus. |
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Bronze Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 89 Registered: Sep-04 | Thankyou for that, John. I wonder if the old 'analogue / digital' debate still holds? I mean where it's alleged that the vinyl actually carries more physical information in it's grooves than on the dye of the CD? Certainly convenient - yes. I have heard of the Rega Planar and the Pro-Jects. I did not know the NAD 533 was a Rega design. Thankyou for informing me. It's something to look out for second hand, I think. I like the price of the Pro-Jects. I notice by reading, they carry the OMP-series Ortofon on their arms. Does this mean the head is a T4P type fitting? What do you think about T4P? I bought an OMP-5E for my old Technics deck years ago (when it worked) but I do not know how they compare to the standard type (with all the wires showing). Are they aimed more at the budget market, or can they be considered Hi-End at all? When I talk of "buckets over speakers", I mean to say it seems like there is a mask over the midrange, especially. The treble comes through nice and sharp, the bass is punchy and extended nicely. Bass Guitars really show up.... But when I think about it, vocals come over as the singer with said bucket over head. I think that pretty much sums up the sound. I might liken it to a perfectly round sphere, which seems to have been dented somewhat on the side. Yes, I'm using the phono stage of my NAD amp. I would consider having an external stage, so that it could be used with the Cambridge Audio amp which does not possess one. So, apart from a motor and a line from the tonearm to the outputs, what variable equipment, exactly (or roughly speaking) is inside a turntable which makes the distinction between good and bad sound? Does that make sense even? Oh, and just to clarify the earlier discussion - I'd know a MM from a MC by the fact I cannot remove the stylus.... Right? Thankyou again, V |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2569 Registered: Dec-03 | You are welcome, Varney. Sorry, I cannot add much more. I use a 1992 NAD 1000 stereo pre-amp which has both MM and MC inputs, with a 25- yr old Rega Planar 3 with the original Ortofon VMS 30 Mk III cartridge (a MM) and original tonearm. Altogether the best single purchase I ever made. Other threads here, which you know, have real experts, which I am not. See especially "MM vs MC" and "Rega Planar 3 running slow". |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2570 Registered: Dec-03 | ...also the thread Concerning turntables and LPs. Simple things your father knew, probably. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 220 Registered: Sep-04 | Varney The Project decks are built to the price and feel it. I've played with them and to me they have a mechanical presentation. You just know you're listening to a transcriptor rather than a performance. The Regas allow music to breathe more freely and have much better timing. The NAD 533 is a lower spec P2. Basically, it was put together using less well specified parts than the P2. Still a good deck. The most important item in a deck is the bearing. That's the bearing which lets the platter rotate. If any rumble or noise comes from the bearing, it gets transmitted directly into the stylus and into your system. The motor is next, having to be as quiet as possible. Most decks are belt driven nowadays and the reason for this is to decouple the motor from the bearing as much as possible, thus reducing noise. The arm also has bearings in it. A bash on the arm can screw them up completely, but modern (so called 'gimbal') arm bearings tend to be a little more robust than older ones ('knife edge'). The most common headshell fitting is the 0.5 inch fitting. This is almost universal nowadays, and is the fitting on the Projects and Regas. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 90 Registered: Sep-04 | Frank, Many thanks - I found the above very helpful to read. Your experience of them is very much as I suspected at that price range. The Ariston Pro-series deck I'm using at the moment cost £20 second hand. Just so you know I'm not expecting perfection from this particular deck. I'm sure you'll understand though, I'd hate to replace it with something of similar quality. When I refer to the internal parts, I mean to say are there any electronic components within which can be variables to the overall sound it puts out? Since one can play a record using a dressmaking needle and paper cone, it makes sense to me that the signal is open to outside resonances big time. I can understand how the mechanical parts will influence all this, needing to be robust and smooth in their movements in order to minimize it. But, and given that the preamp stage is external in this case, I am wondering what lies between the cartridge and the final outputs as possible electronic obstacles to that signal on it's journey out to the amp? Is it altered or pre-amped in anyway before it gets to the phono-stage at all? And there are other variables - like the quality of the interconnects coming from the back where, on my Ariston they are non-removable and bog standard in qaulity. Ideally, I'd like a deck in future which gives me the choice as to what cables I use. I had thought to remove these and install some sockets, so that I could try this myself. Any thoughts? Regards, V |
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Bronze Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 91 Registered: Sep-04 | John, I think in my case, it would be "simple things I WISH my father knew". In our family there is a distinct rule which our heredity has followed. They were the pragmatic generation who "in our day, we never had...." and I'm the child of the gadget generation who has to set the clock on the video. Since my father is about to enter retirement, he'll have more time to sit and listen. I've stipulated the cheapo gear must go and have pledged to install a starter system out of the spares I have here. So, when I have the new Gales for my Cambridge Audio, he'll be inheriting my second NAD with the Gales I have going spare. A good introduction to Hi-Fi I think. As you can imagine, I can't wait to see how he will react to the new sound. A cunning ploy to make Christmas easier to plan in future! I'll just keep him upgraded and stocked up with music! V |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 227 Registered: Sep-04 | Varney The simplest traditional record deck does not have any electronics between the cartridge and the final outputs (the RCA plugs at the end of the tonearm cable). There are some inexpensive record decks which have a built-in phonostage but these are usually even lower quality than one normally gets... On the subject of using separate cable of your own choice, there is a significant disadvantage to doing this. Typically, you would cut the cable near the tonearm and wire some sort of junction box with female RCA sockets. Then you would plug in the interconnect of your choice to connect to the amplifier. A cartridge generates a very low voltage signal (in the order of 2mV for MM and 0.2 - 0.6mV for MC). Now, if you introduce the extra break as above to get to the amplifier, this is another obstacle that this very low signal has to surmount. Further, you'll notice that most tonearm cables are quite thin and insubstantial. This is by design since these cables have very very low inductance, making it easier for that very small signal to get to the amplifier unimpeded. If you introduce a higher inductance interconnect (likely), you will actually be providing even more of an obstacle to the signal! What you *can* do, is replace the whole of the tonearm cable. Many tonearms have a break in the cable hidden in the arm (due to the way the arm is built, like a SME for example) and so rewiring the arm can reduce the number of breaks and bring about worthwhile gains. I experienced a massive improvement when I had my arm rewired with Incognito wire. Best £129 I've ever spent. In fact, the Incognito rewire is designed for the RB300. I've heard it in this scenario too, and again it made big gains, though not as big as on my (much higher end) deck. So in summary, generally no there are no electronics between the cartridge and the preamp (or phono stage), and if you want to address wiring, look at replacing the whole tonearm wire with a suitable type rather than just splitting it near the tonearm and using an interconnect. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 92 Registered: Sep-04 | Well, thankyou very much, Frank. That answers my question so that I understand the turntable a lot better now. I'll keep this one as it is and be on the lookout for a higher-end deck for the future. Another question (if you don't mind)on the subject of counterbalancing. I have no idea about this, other than the fact that I discovered that if the adjustable counterbalance is too far back, it causes graininess - presumably because the stylus is making scant contact with the groove. Is it possible though, to go too far the other way and cause damage to the vinyl and/or stylus? I ask because I'm not sure how much downforce to apply. Should I allow the full weight of the head assembly onto the surface, or should it be balanced 'out' and up and little, a lot, or not at all? Is there a prescribed method for weighing one's head assembly to make some sort of proper judgement? If so, what would the method be? Thankyou for your time, V |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2573 Registered: Dec-03 | Varney, I am the first generation in to hifi, too. I learned all those things the hard way. As regards tracking weight, start with the value recommended by the cartridge manufacturer. There is usually a rotatable counterpoise at the other end of the arm from the cartridge. Start by rotating it until the tracking weight is zero - that is, until the arm, when free, balances, and the stylus tip just floats where it will be, level with the surface of an LP. The arm will probably tend to move horizontally, outwards from the centre of the the disc. That is OK, it is corrected later. The next think to do is to rotate the marked collar so that the indicated tracking weight is zero. The moment of force (force times distance) is the same at each side of the fulcrum, or pivot, and you know the downward force of the stylus on the LP surface is zero. Then rotate the marked counterpoise and the marked wheel together, so that they move inwards some millimeters, towards the pivot, until the tracking weight indicated on the collar corresponds with the catridge manufacterer's recommendation. The whole arm is a simple lever, and the tracking weight, which is the effective downward force the stylus exterts on the LP, then becomes a little greater than it was when the arm was balanced. Moving the weight inwards has decreased the distance, and therefore decreased the moment of force on the other side of the pivot. The distance moved by the weight is proportional to the extra force exerted by the stylus on the LP surface, and the maker has calibrated that, knowing the weight of the counterpoise. You then have to set the bias adjustment or "anti-skating" value to correspond with the selected tracking weight. My tracking weight is 1.0 g. The usual recommended values are between 1.0 and 2.0 g. |
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Bronze Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 94 Registered: Sep-04 | Thankyou, John. I have had a look, bearing in mind all you have said. I find that there are no gradient markers along the length of the track on which the counterpoise travels. I also do not have the manufacturer's specs on either of my cartridges, but am staying within the safe ceiling of 1.5 grams. I guess it must be a very cheap'n'nasty deck. When I saw the bargain, I thought Ariston were a top make. I remember seeing them reviewed in What Hi-Fi in the eigthies. I've since discovered that although this brand was started by an engineer and audiophile of the 70's, the make has since degenerated into producing cheaper, mass produced decks for DJs. Thanks for all your help. I'm sure I will find a way to apply your advice after looking a little more closely at it. V |
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Bronze Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 95 Registered: Sep-04 | No, this is stupid.... There are no markings on the collar at all. It doesn't even rotate. There is no wheel either. The only thing which moves and is seperate is the counterbalance weight, which travels back and forth if rotated. How am I supposed to know how much tracking weight i am applying without any markings? I don't even know where 'zero' is. Is it okay to just guess it? Just move the weight until the stylus hits the record? I can't think of anything else to do! Help! V |
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Bronze Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 96 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh well, I did something similar with my first airbrush.... Bought a cheap model, Stripped it, bent the needle, lost a spring, over-pressurized it and then bought a top-notch pro model. I can now dismantle, service and re-assemble the thing properly with my eyes closed. Way to learn, I guess. V |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2576 Registered: Dec-03 | Varney, Sorry I do not know specific things about your arm and cartridge. You might like to see if there is a users' guide on-line. you can also buy a tracking weight gauge, but I doubt if it is worth it. Others here may know what to recommend. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 230 Registered: Sep-04 | Hi Varney - sorry I stepped out for a while. It is very important to get the correct tracking weight and anti-skate setup on the deck. If you overdo it, the cartridge will dig its way through your record collection in a damaging way, or its life could be significantly reduced since it either suffers uneven wear or the stylus wears more quickly due to the pressures involved (tons per square inch), or the cartridge's suspension will compress causing it to bottom out and for the suspension to die well before its time. If you underdo it, the carridge won't track properly, could suffer other kinds of damage too. Get it right...  If there are no markings on the arm (which is usual on higher end arms incidentally) you will have to use a tracking force gauge. My favourite is the Shure SFG-2 which retails for around £20. It's very accurate and works a treat. Now, as to the weight the cartridge should track at, if it's any well known make then you should be able to find the recommended tracking force on the web. If it's not, it might be in the deck's manual and would certainly be in the cartridge's instructions (if there are any). You need this information in order to do the job properly. To set up, balance the arm such that it remains horizontal when you let go of it. In other words, the arm doesn't drift down or up. Now place the SFG-2 (say) on the platter, set it to the appropriate setting and load up the counterweight. Observe how well balanced the SFG-2 is and readjust. Eventually, you'll get it to balance perfectly. That's the force set. Once you have done this, you need to set the anti-skate. The way I like to do this is to get a nicely flat record with a large lead-out groove. (i.e. the music only takes a little over half the disc or so). Now spin up the deck and wait for it to reach 33.3 rpm. Cue the arm so the cartridge drops in between the grooves and observe which way the arm moves before it picks up a groove. If it skims in towards the centre spindle (likely) it needs more anti-skate force. If it pulls out tot he edge of the record, it needs less anti-skate. Anti-skate adjustment can be in various forms. Some arms have a little nib that you push one way or another - this applies pressure with a spring. Others have a rotating knob (again a spring in the arm) and yet others use a simple weight and thread with a bar sticking out the side of the arm pillar! The above instructions change if one is using a Rega RB300 or better. After balancing the arm, one simply uses the downforce dial to dial in the tracking weight required by the cartridge. No need for a stylus force gauge. Then one uses my technique for setting the anti-skate. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2586 Registered: Dec-03 | Good stuff, Frank. Also, test or set-up LPs usually carry a band with no groove, in the middle of one side, to allow correct anti-skating adjustment. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 245 Registered: Sep-04 | Indeed. A friend of mine has the Cardas test and setup disc. Not only does it have the empty area, it also has run in grooves to run in your new cartridge. I have used these on several cartridges to great effect. Basically these grooves are a circle, not a spiral so the cartridge keeps 'playing' the groove until you take it off. There are two types of run-in groove on the disc - one for horizontal movement and one for vertical movement. This takes care of your stereo and you should alternate between the two types evenly to get even run-in. e.g. Leave the cartridge playing overnight on one groove. Then leave it on the other groove for the next night. It's an effective tool. In case you're wondering, the disc is made of especially hard vinyl otherwise the grooves would wear out quickly. I must say, it sounds quite violent when you do the run-in process since the grooves are quite wickedly modulated, but alternating between the two sets of grooves for 4 days non-stop ran in my Dynavector Te Kaitore Rua very nicely indeed. Every evening I could tell the difference the day's work had made. The Cardas record is available mail order from places like www.vivante.co.uk. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Mike_wPost Number: 11 Registered: Nov-04 | Thanks for that Frank, a good resource of which I was unaware. It leads to another question though. I have occasionally heard that a record groove should not be played more than once a day. The reason given is that the pressure that the stylus exerts on the area of groove wall that it touches is so extreme that it causes deformation and heating of the vinyl. It is alleged that it takes some time (up to 24 hours) for the vinyl to recover. I have even seen a post on another board recently in which the assertion was made that consecutive revolutions in a track (such as happens with an unlifted stylus at the end of a record) actually melts the vinyl and coats the stylus. I have wanted to scoff, but I know the pressures that the stylus exerts are extreme and my knowledge of microscopic physics is severely limited, so I don't think I'm qualified to scoff. What I do know is that most of us at some time have forgotten a record and left it playing that last groove for hours. You can discover a record that has been left playing all night and it is still making exactly the same noise as it did on the first play (and the stylus hasn't eaten its way through the record) - so I'm led to believe that this is one more urban myth to add to the thousands that surround records and the playing thereof. Probably created by the sellers of arm lifters. Your method of breaking in the stylus by using a continuous loop overnight also gives the lie to this belief, because I feel fairly safe in assuming that the reason for doing it is to improve the stylus rather than degrade it. Hifi, and particularly the playing of vinyl is so strongly influenced be the 'Emperor's New Clothes' syndrome that it's almost impossible to know when to believe and when you are being influenced by someone else's paranoia and/or imagination - drives me crazy. Sorry for that little rant - I must have needed to get it out. |
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Silver Member Username: VarneyBirminghamEngland, UK Post Number: 108 Registered: Sep-04 | Well, Mike - I tend to agree. That's not to say my knowledge of microscopic physics is any better than yours, but I think such pedantic paranoia may often verge on the obsessional for some. Common sense would tell you it's not good to leave a needle in a groove for longer than needs be. Movement and wear cause friction, so I would imagine there would be some heat build up. Why not, indeed? When it comes to heat-stick effect allegedly induced by playing a track more than once in a day, I would be less worried about the state of my equipment than that of my mind, if such obsessional behaviour limited my enjoyment. Who hasn't at some point thought "Damn, that was a good track.... Play it again, Sam!" Regards, V |
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Anonymous | I'm willing to bet no-one here makes fruit bowls for a hobby. But any ideas on how to seal the hole when making soup bowls? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aPost Number: 2629 Registered: Dec-03 | "The reason given is that the pressure that the stylus exerts on the area of groove wall that it touches is so extreme that it causes deformation and heating of the vinyl. It is alleged that it takes some time (up to 24 hours) for the vinyl to recover" I think that is total nonsense. The smaller the tip and groove, the less the time taken to cool. The experiment to do is change the frquency between each of a train of the same number of playings and see if wear is a function of frequency, and within what range. I could just about imagine an effect if you played the record, say, 100 times a second. Out side that, it seem to me very dubious. Nice general comment about Emperors' New Clothes, Mike. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 251 Registered: Sep-04 | Actually, we do know that records wear out, and the material that wears out must go somewhere. I have seen styli which had vinyl deposits on them and I have also heard the vinyl melting story. However, I've also heard the tale that the vinyl simply deforms as the cartridge goes through it to reform once it's gone past. Since vinyl is basically plastic it's bound to have some elastic properties so this seems a sensible thing to believe, but the evidence of my eyes tells me cartridges can run heavy enough to wear vinyl easily. I thin it also depends on the quality and consitency of the vinyl. The Cardas record is a heavy record and very stiff - it's quite hard vinyl! This means the cartridge is goig to make less of an impression on it than an ordinary record. Also, don't forget that better cartridges using things like fine-line styli dig deeper into the groove and miss altogether the groove walls (hence less pops and crackles since they're on the surface) so how the record wears is a bit of an unknown I think. I wouldn't discount any of the points made above myself... Regards, Frank. |
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