Denon 3803 vs Yamaha 3300 vs Sony DA3000ES or 5000ES
Anonymous
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I'm looking to buy one of the following receivers: Denon 3803 vs Yamaha 3300 vs Sony DA3000ES or 5000ES. I know that the Pioneer Elite have a cult following, but Pioneers are not my thing. Any suggestions and why?
Yamaha is one of the few brands that contain beefy power supplies & provide high current output drive capability, thus being able to drive 4 ohm speakers. I bought the Yamaha 3300 recently and I'm very happy with it. It lists for $1499, but I picked mine up at 6ave.com for $699. But I don't think they're advertising them anymore.
elitefan
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Orcrone, Your statement about the Yamaha's power supplies is a total joke. Their power supplies are some of the worst out there and is proveable by any test report you will ever see. The review in the January issue of Home Theater of the 2400 shows that although Yamaha claims it,s power is 120 x 7 it actually measures only 102.9 at 8 ohms at .1% distortion. With 5 channels driven at 8 ohms at .1% it drops to a pathetic 43.5 watts. You can call this "beefy" if you want but in actuality it's nothing more than a fraud. If you like the sound and features of Yamaha that,s fine and enjoy but don,t get sucked into the lies that Yamaha puts out. Their power supplies are just pitiful when compared to others like NAD, Rotel, Elite and H/K.
E1KAD2
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Hi elitefan, Am sick and tired of you questioning the power supplies of Yamaha thus making them a liar about their power output. Know the truth, run a test for yourself and not just depend on some crap reviews. If Yamaha's are liar, then sue them.
elitefan
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Crap reviews? This is a bench test dipwad. I am pointing out the truth and I guess you can't handle it huh? Or maybe you just don't want to know the truth.
E1KAD2
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Then the bench test are a crap. Do yourself a favor dipwad, run a test of your own. I previously owned pioneer integrated AMP and receiver, (A-702R and VSX-D933S) and can tell that they could not compete with Yamaha's equivalent. I rest my case.
elitefan
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The bench test are crap? Do you understand anything about amps? Obviously not. Bench tests do not lie. You might as well rest your case as you don't have one. You might like the Yamaha sound and that's fine but the facts about power are not on your side. Buy what you want but at least be open to proveable, measureable facts. Why defend a company that so openly lies about their products? Where did they come up with 120x7 for the 2400? Out of thin air I guess as it,s miles from reality. Yamaha's are full of features but power is not one of them, unfortunetly or even I might consider one.
Now children, enough name calling. Elitefan, I don't know about the benchtests you cited. I tried to find the test of the unit on the magazine's web site but came up empty. I have seen some benchtests in magazines of other Yamaha receivers that showed it outperforming it's specs by a slight margin. If what you state is true then I'm disappointed.
However, my point about their power supplies is not how much power they can put out continuously. That doesn't matter that much in real world scenarios. What's more important is how much dynamic output they can put out instantaneously. For instance for a cymbal crash. The second point is that many receivers are not rated for and won't drive 4 ohm loads, whereas the Yamaha will. Think of the power supplies as a 'pool' of energy available to the amplifier circuitry. Cheap power supplies are analogous to a small shallow pool, whereas beefier supplies would be a deep pool. When the amplifier circuits call for a lot of power as cited above, then they will draw a lot of current from the supplies. When cheap supplies are used they just don't have the 'pool' of current to draw on.
This is not a scientific test, but my Yamaha receiver is a heavy mutha (about 50 lbs/mutha), which is usually indicative of beefy power supplies.
One last point off on a tangent. I'm sure I'll get a lot of people questioning my ability to interact with the rest of the human race. But my belief is that your speakers are going to make more of a difference to the sound than the rest of your system combined. If your speakers have some unusual qualities (e.g. extremely inefficient or extremely low-impedance) then the receiver (technically power amplifier) that you drive them with will make a difference. Otherwise, either one of the receivers you mention will probably do just fine.
elitefan
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Orcrone, I would never try to drive 4 ohm speakers with a Yamaha. Yamaha just does not have that ability unlees you get to a RXV1 or the new 9. For home theater you need more than just an instantaneous burst. I can think of many movies where you need several seconds at least of high power output. The more real power the better for movie watching. The power figures I cited are in the January issue of HT, I did not make them up. For a unit rated at 120 x 7 you have to admit that 43.5 watts at 5 channels is pretty pathetic. I am not trying to pick on Yamaha specifically, this is just the latest example of outright lying and it's a shame for all of us that there is no set standard of measurement that is enforceable by law that these companies have to meet. Where did Yamaha dream up 120 x 7 when the 2400 can't come anywhere close to that spec. It's ridiculous that for the money we have to pay to get these products that any company can get away with this kind of crap. That's really my main point. Maybe we should all lobby Michael Powell at the FCC. Oh wait , what am I thinking. He's part of the problem not the solution.
E1KAD2
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Orcrone is right. Elitefan, show us the site man! and I do understand a lot about AMPS. I told you before and I will tell you again, if they are lying, then sue them. Got my point.
elitefan
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As has been stated before the review of the 2400 is not on HT's website but at present only in the January issue of the magazine. I am not making upanything, only repeating the spec from their bench test. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand? If they are lying is not in question. "They" are period. As I said Yamaha is not the only ones who do this; I am only using this unit as an example of the larger issue about not having any standards and enforcement of same. This should bother anyone who cares about not being ripped off. What is so hard about that to grasp?
E1KAD2
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No problem man.
Tim Bell
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I have the January issue of Home Theater Magazine and "elitefan" is right about the test numbers, but his interpretation of the results is wrong. The output that "elitefan" is reffering to comes from a Wattage vs. Percent Distortation Curve. Not an output curve. Based on this curve, the Yamaha RX-V2400 receiver reached the .1% distortortion point at 102.9 watts and at 130.5 watts this receiver has 1% distortation when two speakers are driven. When five speakers are driven, the Yamaha receiver reached .1% distortion at 43.5 watts. This does not mean that the Yamaha RX-V2400 doesn't put out 120 watts it only means that at the rated output you can expect a lot of unwanted noise when five speakers are being driven. The test curve clearly reaches beyond the 120 watt point before it flattens out. All receivers have a reduction in power when trying to drive five to seven speakers simultaneously because all the channels are drawing current off the same power supply even the ones "elitefan" has mentioned. You can rest assure that the Yamaha power supplies are top notch and are much better than H/K, Rotel. NAD and Pioneer have good power supplies but are by no means better.
E1KAD2
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Thanks Tim for the enlightenment. Hey elitefan, hope this one catches you. I bet your the one who doesn't really know about AMPS. LOL!
E1KAD2
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This is the reason why I don't trust elitefans word. His interpretations of the Home Theaters RXV-2400 review is wrong. Imagine, he had the guts to post while he doesn't understand anything about AMPS. LOL!!!!! Thanks TIM. More power.
elitefan
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Look at any test result of a Yamaha and you will see poor multichannel rating in db watts as well as watts per channel. This is partly because Yamaha [and Onkyo] employs a protection circuit that cuts off power after a second or two of output. Why do they do this? Poor heat sinks? Poor power supplies? If you have a truely well designed receiver this cutoff is not necessary. My point about their ratings and supplies is not incorrect. "At the rated power you can expect alot of noise"? Why? Yamaha supplies better than Rotel or Harmon? You have got to be kidding! As I have said before buy what you like and want but be informed. All receivers do have some reduction in power in multichannel mode and this is the true test of a good power supply. Yamaha flunks this test. Look at multichannel ratings of Elite, Rotel, H/K and NAD and you will find a very small reduction compared to Yamaha [and others]. 43.5 watts at .1% speaks for itself. You can interpret that any way you choose but the numbers don't lie.
Dules
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Tim Bell all you say is, "Yamaha power supplies are top notch and are much better than H/K, Rotel. NAD and Pioneer have good power supplies but are by no means better."
But, you do not provide any sort of evidence other than your humble opinion. I trust elitefan much more than you as he always backs his humble opinon with science or respected reviews.
I question why you think Yamaha's power is better than H/K, is it because H/K does not inflate their power rating by reporting peak output of only one channel at one tone like Yamaha?
E1KAD2 get off the defensive - life is too short. Just relax and enjoy all those DSPs...
E1KAD2
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Elitefan, you don't know how to interpret it. Imagine posting that misleading info. is totally unacceptable. If you are going to inform the users, pls. give accurate data and not just your own interpretation. And then you are telling that Yamaha again flunks the test. My...my..., you really don't know anything about AMPS.
Dules, if you want evidence, go have a test for yourself. Not just again getting inputs from elitefan. And your telling us that elitefan has humble opinions. LOL! Be a man. Stand-up.
Anonymous
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Yamaha's are great, if you don't know jack about audio.
bummer
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Or like cheap crap.
elitefan
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Tim et al, I stand by my statements about the 2400 and it's poor power and distortion but I am not saying this receiver might not be ok in the right situation. The reviewer from HT always used his own speakers [Paradigm Studio 20] for his reviews of receivers and amps and the Paradigms are probably the best match with Yamaha that I know of. The Paradigms are very warm and image well which balances the Yamaha's rather thin sound. My Elite would not be a good match with Paradigm even though it has far better power nunmbers, distortion etc. Matching receivers and speakers correctly is the key point. By the way, I am not on a mission to expose Yamaha only. I would point out this power discrepancy on any brand if I found it so glaring as this example. I you or anyone enjoys the Yamaha sound that,s great. I have no problem with that at all. My problem is the more general issue of any manufacturer making false claims about their products. I truely hope you have a system you enjoy no matter what it consists of.[except maybe Sony and Bose]
E1KAD2
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If this is what you put on elitefan "My problem is the more general issue of any manufacturer making false claims about their products.", this is a good point but giving misleading info. is not proper. Hope you understand.
elitefan
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I did not give any misleading info of any kind. Repeating published specs that point out a weakness in any product is hardly misleading. Choose to believe what you want but for me 43.5 watts in 5 channel doesn't cut it. Peace to all and enjoy the holidays.
elitefan
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See under Receievers posting the post on the review of the 2400 under audioholics.com. Generally good review but one thing popped out at me that is weird is that this receiver's sub out is inactive in 2 channel direct mode. I always listen to music in this mode on my Elite 45 and sub is always active, which it should be. I would suspect that the sub is active in stereo mode however.
E1KAD2
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Elitefan, So you have read the RXV-2400 review. I presume you've also read the THX certification. Quote " A mark of excellence in the entertainment industry, THX Certification promises consumers and media professionals that the certified venues they visit, and the certified products they purchase, have been evaluated and tested to meet the highest standards for picture and sound performance. THX is the only third-party company specializing in quality assurance programs and technologies for home theatre component manufacturing. The company's Home Theatre Certification programs provide consumer electronics manufacturers with independent analysis of home theatre products, as well as additional expertise for their design and engineering efforts. It ensures manufacturers' systems and components meet or exceed the industry's highest levels for performance--long before they make it into the hands of consumers." What more proof do you ask? Peace to you and enjoy the holidays too!
elitefan
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I ask for more multichannel power and a sound quality I like. I do not care for the Yamaha sound as I find it thin and missing what I can only call real guts but I do not begrudge anyone who is satisfied with Yamaha. As far as THX is concerned the main contribution is the timbre matching and cinema eq funtions that matter most. THX has valid points to it's functions but is hardly the holy grail. Some consider it only a marketing tool. Also as I stated above I want my sub active in all modes.
E1KAD2
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Again, your THX definition is your own opinion. Right? I hope so. It will not be set as a standard if just consider as another marketing tool.
I thinkcinema eq and timbre matching are important to have whether it's on a THX unit or not. I have had these features on THX and non THX recievers and they really do help tame the brightness of digital soundtrcks. I did not say I thought THX was only a marketing tool. I said some people, many on this forum do. I would not buy a receiver just because it has THX certification but at least you know it has the features I mentioned if you do. Since someone stole my original handle you will notice a new one from now on.