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New member Username: RidfighterPost Number: 1 Registered: Jan-12 | Hi fellow users, first of all let me tell yall how much i appreciate your inputs!! thank you. Ok my questions is I am building a 5.1 system, and i personally like the way Paradigm and B&W speakers sound, the problem is the money, I just want to know which paradigm or bowers & wilkins speakers(front left and right and center) which will be in the price range of $2000, I dont mind if its refurbished or used, , so all i want to know is which 2 floor-standers and center channel will yall recommend (i don't like bookshelves, i prefer towers) by the way i am buying the SVS PB12-NSD Sub, so something which will match this as well, My preference is 65%movies and TV, 20%music, 15%xbox I will value your expertise for the best bang for the buck,Thank you please help me. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 17097 Registered: May-04 | . Tell us what receiver or processor/power amp you intend to use with these speakers. |
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New member Username: RidfighterPost Number: 2 Registered: Jan-12 | Hi I havent decided on the reciever yet, once i decide on speakers, I will see what amp will power them |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 17099 Registered: May-04 | . Either the B&W's as a group or most of Paradigm's line of floorstanding speakers will require a hefty amplifier. They tend to be a difficult load for an amplifier and the vast majority of HT receivers will struggle with their demands. If you're dead set on these two speaker lines, I would first determine how much you are willing to pay for a very good amplifier. A $700 Yamaha isn't going to cut it. I would be looking more at something like this; http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7200.html Pair it with either the Marantz receiver offered by Outlaw and used as a pre amp/processor or buy a dedicated processor such as; http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/M978.html IMO without this level of amplification, you're wasting your money on the B&W's. Several of the Paradigms are just as difficult to drive and will also require amplification beyond the means of a mass market HT receiver. Are you willing to put that much cash into your amplification just to drive floorstanding speakers? . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 17100 Registered: May-04 | . What equipment do you own now? Why do you want to change from what you have? |
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Gold Member Username: IlluminatorUSA Post Number: 5624 Registered: Apr-05 | The poster could get a pair of the 683's or maybe some of the CM towers. Yeah B&W is a difficult load but it's not THAT bad. The receiver isn't going to blow up or start in flames. Any receiver will do fine with them, honestly, as long as it's a reputable brand. I had my 70's Kenwood receiver that put out maybe 50w RMS is all hooked up to my difficult-to-drive CM1's and it did just fine, maybe got a little warm at times, but that's it. B&W wouldn't still be in business if their speakers ruined amplifiers or sounded miserable with their low sensitivity ratings. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 15323 Registered: Feb-05 | Their sensitivity ratings are not what makes them a difficult load. My Harbeth speakers present an easy load as their impedence remains relatively stable. They are far less efficient than the B&W's. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 17101 Registered: May-04 | . It's not that the B&W's or the Paradigms will not play with a receiver or that they will destroy the receiver - at least not right away. First, B&W now has a few speakers which are not that difficult to drive - none that are floorstanders as far as I know but they are changing their line - slowly. Second, in general the Paradigm floorstanders are not as hard on an amp as are most of the B&W's. Third, what I expect to hear from a $2k speaker system may not be what others expect for that amount of money. If the speakers are meant to sit where they fit rather than where they sound best, then quality has already been compromised. The effect of a difficult to drive speaker where quality is not paramount is then not so much an issue. But speakers ill suited to the capacity of the amp will begin to drive the amp which will result in both lower quality sound and an amplifier that is less than happy. An amplifier that isn't really happy with the ease with which it plays can be expected to have a shorter lifespan. How much shorter? I don't know, so maybe it's not an issue with others. I just see no need to pay $2k for speakers that aren't well suited to the amplifier - or more specifically, I see no need to buy a speaker that will dictate which amplifier I must buy for the best sound quality. Because the B&W's and Paradigms have a very difficult impedance/phase load for any amplifier, once you've made the decision to buy those speakers, you've tied yourself down to needing an amplifier which makes the most of you investment. I never cared to be tied down to needing any component because I wasn't aware of the problems another component imposed. But that's me and my idea that audio gear shouldn't be a disposable commodity. If I had to choose options, I would much rather have too much amplifier for any speaker I might select than too much speaker for the amp I have or can afford. The most common questions we get here regarding receiver problems are usually tied to someone buying too much speaker for what they want to spend on an amplifier. If the op wants to join that club, then he's welcome to. I will say again even an audition in a store with the B&W's connected through a switch box will not show how well a HT receiver drives a pair of B&W floorstanders. But the OP may not be as particular about sound quality as I am. . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3681 Registered: Jun-07 | Jan is right, you got to have a decent amp for those speakers. Buying speakers first and then randomly placing an amp into the equation is always a bad idea. What amp did you hear the Paradigms and B&W's on? Matched up with certain gear, and the speakers may sound horrible. Before selling it all for a full Totem assault, I used an all Paradigm series Home Theater with a NAD AVR with great results. |
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New member Username: RidfighterPost Number: 3 Registered: Jan-12 | Hi thank you for your inputs, honestly i dont know what reciever to get, what reciever will yall advise me to power these floorstanders? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 17104 Registered: May-04 | . I wouldn't suggest a receiver. Others might disagree. However, buying an all in one HT receiver will limit you in the future. For example, the most important component in any piece of audio gear will be the power supply, if it isn't the best possibe for the money, nothing else matters. In a HT receiver the power supply must first be designed to accommodate the power amplifier. Therefore, you are buying a power supply and an amplifier with the pre amp and processing added to the value. Fine, except the problem is the pre amp/processor is the first to be outdated or need repair. If any problems arise with the receiver after, say, three years, you'll probably be advised to buy a new receiver to take advantage of the new features offered on the new processors. Or a new connector might come into vogue which will force you to update the entire receiver when all you need to change will be the pre amp which accepts the connectors. In other words, how HT receiver manufacturers stay in business is through repeat business which comes mostly at the expense of new processing or connectability functions they sell to the person who already has a HT receiver - but not one with all the newest geegaws and features. Neither processing nor connectivity affect the power amp. But, if you've purchased a HT receiver today, you'll probably be discarding the old power amp when you buy a new receiverin three years. Why? If the power amp still operates as well as it did the day you bought the component, you shouldn't need to change the power amp just to get a new connector for a new digital player. Additionally, if you buy a separate power amp now instead of a HT receiver, you get to select just which amp will do the right job with your speakers. You're very less prone to changing a power amp than any other component in your HT system. I have a power amp in my HT system that's been in there since the late '90's. It was a class A quality power amp at the time and the needs of a power amp haven't changed in a dozen years. I've been through two other pre amp/procesors and have finally - I think - landed on a separate pre amp/processor which should last me for several more years. If my needs in connectivity or processing would change, I can still use my power amp and simply take the money I would have used on a more cheaply made, disposable BS mass market HT receiver to upgrade to a far better quality pre amp/processor which should last me another dozen years. If you wish to get on the mass market feature driven carousel of buying new gear every few years, buy a receiver - but buy a good one if you want to drive the B&W's. Otherwise, buy wisely now and buy a power amp that will last you for decades and a processor with more quality than glitz. What I suggested above would be my response to your lastest question. . |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 2676 Registered: Oct-07 | Several unknowns, here, setup is on any short list. Jan's point about puttin' em where they fit rather than sound best is telling of decorating concerns trumping best SQ concerns. This is a major selling point for Bose and those loving 'invisible'. I'd NOT recommend a 5.1 setup, but rather the 'less is more' idea of a good stereo pair (sub optional) and an integrated amp...with maybe a DAC to be added later. Yeah, movies sound cool in surround sound. But I get about 85% of the theater experience with a good 2.1 setup. Even IF my room were suitable for 5.1 or greater, I'd have had many more compromises stretching the budget to the surround setup than I made with stereo. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3682 Registered: Jun-07 | Even if the OP uses surround sound material 80 percent of his time? In my personal experience, surround systems are not bested by an equally priced 2.0 channel system when watching Blu Ray/DVD or playing the 360. Yes, I agree that the 2.0 channel system for equal money will be of higher quality gear, and for music will be leaps and bounds better, especially if the OP buys a Receiver (which I would take Jan's advice and buy separates if you can afford it) I am currently an 90 percent music and 10 percent surround sound guy, but am lucky to have found a two channel amp that I think sounds great, while allowing me to integrate the Staffs into the theater using a unity gain input. The best of both worlds you would say. Surround sound to the NAD for center,rears and sub. Music to DAC/Cambridge fronts. However, stating the fact that the OP will hardly use it for music, then I would full on suggest a pre/pro dedicated 5.1 setup that would occasionally play the odd tune. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 17106 Registered: May-04 | . I think the op is looking for specific model or at least brand recommendations. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3683 Registered: Jun-07 | Rida- For me personally for 5.1 seperates or AVR's with decent PS's that put sound before features I dig, B&K, Arcam, Rotel, NAD, Cambridge, Outlaw and the new Anthem;s. Actually, speaking of an AVR that brings a solid power and pre section, while boasting all the giggly features AND still not breaking the bank. Check out the new Anthem AVR's. If you do decide to go with a Receiver. http://www.anthemav.com/products/anthem/a-v-receiver Or, if you can muster more cash, go with their 5.1 separates, which would be the better choice. http://www.anthemav.com/products/anthem/a-v-processor-17 My above recommendation would be at the top of my personal Home theater list IF I you were to purchase the Paradigm line. Same company, amazing synergy. For B&W speakers most likely the Rotel as they are in bed with each other, Outlaw Pre/Pro or if its out of your budget, then the Onkyo Integra lineup. Of course, listening to some full systems with Paradigm and BW speakers would be ideal. Never simply buy stuff based on someones recommendation on a forum. Go listen for yourself. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 15333 Registered: Feb-05 | It depends on how often you update the rest of the AV chain. If you can see yourself using the same sources (or technology) and display for a few years there are a number outstanding options. Onkyo/Integra, Pioneer Elite, Marantz are three brands whose upper end models will easily drive B&W's or Paradigms and provide plenty of excitement especially when music is a priority 20% or less of the time. For speakers the B&W 600 series offers outstanding value and sound for a very reasonable cost. |
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New member Username: RidfighterPost Number: 4 Registered: Jan-12 | Thanky you for the recomendations, i appreciate it |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3685 Registered: Jun-07 | On Arts rec of the Pioneer Elite, I have installed 3 now with Paradigm Monitor Series for people on a budget, including a good friend and the sound has been very good. I have 0 experience on the Marantz units but they come highly recommended by a good friend who owns a shop. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 17108 Registered: May-04 | . As a cautionary note, speakers are not where you want to spend the largest percentage of your funds when building a high quality system. A high quality speaker at the end of a mediocre system will only show you how mediocre everything is in front of the speaker. A mid-line speaker connected to superior electronics, however, will sound like a much better speaker as it will be responding to a cleaner, more accurate input signal. As Nick suggests, audition and do not go by anyone's opinion as we all have opinions and they are usually not totally in agreement with each other. . |
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New member Username: RidfighterPost Number: 5 Registered: Jan-12 | so which is better? b&w 600 series or paradigm monitors or studios or salk towers? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 17109 Registered: May-04 | . What do you mean by "better"? Each of us will have our own opinion about what better means to each of us. And each if us will then have a different opinon of which speaker is "betterer" than another. That's simply a fact because each speaker has its advantages and its disadvantages. There are no perfect or even "better"components or speakers until you've weighed those two sets of points and determined which piece comes the closest to your preferences. Obviously, you must first have priorities - a target - to aim towards before you can even begin placing each speaker closer to or further from that target. Just throwing all the pieces up in the air and seeing which one lands face up isn't the best way to select a system. Try this; which do you think is "better" than the others? Why? What's your rationale for making that decision? Have you actually heard any of these speakers? This is very basic to the ideas we operate under on this forum. There are no perfect components. Therefore, you must have some personal priorities in mind before you set out on a course to find a better system. You must have a destination in mind before you leave the house. If you want food, do you just head out the door and wander aimlessly until you come across a convenience store with some Twinkies for sale? Without direction intended for your audio system you will wander aimlessly between poorly chosen paths which will never lead you to a final satisfying destination. So, Rida, do you have any goals for your system? If so, what are they? Telling us you want clean highs and clear mids with tight bass is not a goal. Everyone wants that, it comes down to how much are you willing to pay to obtain those goals. If you decide on a speaker which is a very difficult load for an amplifier, then you have to support that choice with appropriate electronics in front of the speaker. That means not only a good amplifier but also good source players and the ability to do a minimal amount of work on the set up of the system to acheve the goals the speaker is able to provide. Just plopping speakers into a corner or alongside the sofa because that's where they fit isn't going to provide the best sound from a speaker that is meant to be set up several feet from each wall. Having mid-fi source players feeding a high quality speaker only allows the speaker to show you the mid-fi quality of the signal it is being fed. If you want mid-fi, why spend $2k? I would say those are the sort of things each of us here on this forum agree upon. That doesn't mean you have to believe the same things, but then, if you blow off our advice, you aren't really asking us for an opinion - just permission. You're then asking us just to name a product you should buy. Out of the hundreds of possible speakers Paradigm and B&W have created over the years, you're asking us to name one just so you can buy it without putting forth any effort to think for yourself. Would you do that with a car or a house? Probably not. In each case you would probably have a few priorities in mind before you began shopping. You want fuel economy or speed. You want luxury or you want a cozy place just to call your own. You want something close to work or out away from everyone. You don't set out to put money into a reasonably large investment without giving it some thought first - or at least you shouldn't. Hi-fi is no different. This is a multi-thousand dollar investment you are suggesting. How do you see yourself going about it? In the end, aprreciating someone's input is one thing, blindly doing as they say is quite another. So, what are your goals or priorities for a sound system? How do you think you should go about achieving those goals? Why? And where did the Salks come from all of a sudden? You have to tell us what you want and it can't be just name a product that I can go buy without knowing why. . |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 15345 Registered: Feb-05 | To start with you were looking for a home theater and gaming system that you occasionally use for music. For that purpose I think that the B&W 600 series is the better of the bunch listed. I'm not even going to go to the Salks which are priced a little differently and perhaps show more concern for music than home theater...in which case you can forget about a Home Theater receiver altogether. Paradigms Monitor series is fine and for HT may be all you need. They have the added bonus of being very efficient. They will not stress a receiver and will play very loud. The Studio series are once again closer to the Salks in priority and not enough better than 600 series B&W (for some folks not better at all) to justify the higher price. Especially for your application. |