Experience in building speakers
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GK | Anyone has any experience with building speakers? Conventional, electrostatic or sub-woofers? Is it difficult, expensive, and why would I want to do it? Is there a chance that a person could make a better than he could buy? |
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Derek | I used to own Chicago Soundworks [no relation to Chicago Speakerworks). Most of the work was with conventional drivers. I've never worked with Electostatics but I have built some large ribbon arrays. I have also built some large subs using Eminence, MTX, Morel, Kicker and Dynaudio. Speaker Building can go two ways: 1. You can design from scratch. Select drivers based upon your final goals and room. Design the woofer alignment (shape and slope). Design the cross-over for highest fidelity AND consistant load to an amp (VERY important) and then design and build your box. This will give you the best sound but it takes a long time (especially finishing the boxes), more tools, requires math and test equipment - and though speaker building, testing, FFTing and Spectrum Analyzing software can be found on the internet for free, this will ultimately be the most expensive. 2. Use someone else proven, pre-designed speakers. This is the fastest way. Essentially you are "assembling" the speakers and saving money. This is, by far, the best way to build subs since they are so heavy and big, you can save a ton by building them yourself. If you are interested, go to www.partsexpress.com. They are a good place to start. They sell everything you will need. MORE SEARCHES. The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook Vance Dickerson Vifa Voicecoil Magazine Speaker Builder Magazine Old Colony Sound Labs Speaker Lab Audio Concepts Madisound Hope this helps. |
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Hawk | GK: Derek has offered good information and advice, as usual. If you are interested in building your own speakers, here is another source fro raw drivers and speaker kits, that I have used myself on occasion: http://madisound.com/ I highly recommend this site. |
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GK | Thanks. Did you build your own speakers? and is there a chance to come out with really good speakers - that could compare to high end commercial ones? |
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timn8ter | For building subs see: http://www.adireaudio.com http://www.diysubwoofers.org Derek's covered the important points. If you've never built speakers before use someone else's plans or kit. For speakers kits/plans see: http://www.adireaudio.com http://www.creativesound.ca http://www.gr-research.com http://www.speakerbuilder.net I haven't bought complete speakers for some time now. I've built 4 subs, two complete HT systems a music only system and currently working on a new TQWT design. |
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GK | timn8ter: Did you build all these speakers because it's less expensive or do you really believe they are as good as commercial speakers? It's interesting to me to think that I could possibly build my own speaker system (and maybe a good one too - ???). Is it really difficult to build a speaker? could I do it at home? I'm more interested in ESLs or even planar-magnetic than dynamic speakers. Do you have any experience with this? |
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timn8ter | Haven't gotten in to ESL's yet. There's lots of information available on using planar drivers. The difficulty, or at least, time consuming part is getting the crossover correct. You can start with modeling software which can point you in the right direction but the reality is that you must test out your design and quite often make modifications to get it right. The reason I do it is that I find audio reproduction and acoustics to be fascinating subjects. In most cases, if you have the tools, you can build a speaker that is as good or better for less money than buying them. For example, in high-end audio a person could build the Linkwitz Orion for about $6000/pr. rivaling systems from Wilson or TAD costing up to $40,000/pr. Going the other direction, the AV1 or Adire 281 kits can be built for less than $500/pr and rival systems in the $1000+ range. Of course this is if you have the tools, some woodworking and soldering experience or don't mind a few mistakes on your way to learning. My current HT mains (my design) cost me about $250 in materials to build and I like them as well as retail systems in the mid-$1000 range. Don't get too ambitious. It's best to start off small, like some surrounds or PC speakers from a kit to "get you feet wet" before taking on a more complex project like an MTM or 3-way system. |
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GK | Actually I was thinking of making some kind of planar speaker (haven't decided which kind, but I can only find information on ESL for now). And I thought of making it Full-Range, so it won't need a crossover. I would be glad to be able to make my own sound system, and get it to be as good as some mid $1000 range. I don't think in my location there's a chance to find a place that sells kits or plans, so I'll have to look for materials one by one, and find plans in the internet. Like I said - there's a page for making ESLs, but I couldn't find anything about making magnetic-planars, except for general explenations of how they work. It seems the main difference between making the two would be, getting the transformers for the ESL vs getting good magnets for the magnetic-planar. Right now it seems easier for me to find material for the ESL, but I might be wrong. I don't know yet where I could find Mylar - I don't even know where to start looking for it. Could you tell me how much time and work I'll have to put in making a speaker (or a pair)? I'm afraid to be engaged in a project and not have enough time to end it. Anyways - thanks for the information, it's good to talk with an experienced person...  |
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timn8ter | I guess when I think of planar transducers I think of Boelender-Graebener. Check this link: http://www.snippets.org/alsr/index.php3 BG drivers are available from Parts Express although I don't know where in the world you are. |
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GK | Well - I'm from Israel.... I don't know why - but the link doesn't seem to work. I'll check the Boelender-Graebener website again though. Thanks |
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GK | By the way - I thought of making the driver myself - since this is the most work you put in a planar speaker... |
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timn8ter | As far as full range or single driver applications, they are very interesting and can be quite satisfying. James Melhuish has a great website on the subject. Adire Audio makes a high quality full range driver, although more correctly it's a coaxial driver, the HE 10.1. http://www.adireaudio.com/diy_audio/monitors/kithe10_1.htm It's possible to build multiple full-range driver systems that only require basic electronics rather than a full blown crossover. http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=ELF1.5DK |
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timn8ter | I'm taking so long to post responses I'm missing your questions. Depending on the complexity of the project and the amount of time you're able to spend on it during the course of a day it may take a month or two or a year. |
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Railbait | GK, I posted this to your other thred, so sorry for the duplication. Wanted to make sure you knew. I spoke with Magnepan today (I wanted swatches, which they are providing). They only have email for distributors. I mentioned you were in Israel and they gave me an importers name there. LM Agencies & Marketing Rishon Lezion phone 972-3-967-8795 They carry Magnepan. Hope this helps. |
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GK | Thanks for both of you... Railbait: I called this distributor and they really are crazy (excuse me) - they want $2600 for the MG12 - this is a no-way. I could get theGold refernce of monitor audio for much less... But I'm still interested in their technology - and thought of trying to make a planar driver, full range. I think it doesn't need much electronics/crossover, since it's full range. But I could only find detailed information about ESLs, and not Magnetic-planars. I can't decide which is better, or easier to make. The ESLs need exterior power (DC bias), and also need a step up after the amplifier, which seems to me a like a loss of quality amplification and redunduncy. On the other hand the Magnetic Planars have a heavier diaphragm, because of the wiring on it (which I didn't yet realize how it should be put). And also they tend to have only one side of magnets, so the Magnetic field is not uniformed, although it might be possible to do it with two sides of magnets. Like I said - I still haven't found good enough sources of information on the build of Magnetic-planars. Interesting though... |
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GK | Again - I'd like to thank you Railbait for bothering to find out the information about the Magnepan distributor in Israel. Thanks |
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Railbait | You are welcome, GK. Keep us informed about your quest to build your speakers. |
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Railbait | GK, I found these sites and thought they might help you out. http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/index.html http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/ |
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| I built a pair of Linkwitz Orions (http://www.poohsticks.org/drew/orion.html) for $1968 (not including amplifiers) and about 60 hours in my workshop. I hadn't built speakers before although I'm no stranger to tools and electronics. Pretty much anything else will be simpler - the Orions have some curves to cut, I painted instead of veneering, and the active cross-over has a few hundred components. I haven't heard anything else in the same league. Other Orion builder/listeners have compared them favorably against all other speakers they've owned, even with five figure MSRPs. If you like the open sound of a planar dipole midrange, you really want to try an open baffle dynamic driver speaker. It's similar, although the sweet spot is larger and image sizes are more natural. The bass can play deep and loud compared to a pure ESL like the Martin Logan CLS and is unequaled by what you get with box woofers. The top end also lacks the placement/room dependant imaging artifacts planar dipoles sometimes have. Siegfried has some inexpensive prototypes on his web site (http://www.linkwitzlab.com) you could play with before committing to spend the time and money on the Orions to get a sense of this. When I ordered my plans, the closest commercial speaker was (fully-active open baffle, but as a 4-way) the Audio Artistry Beethoven Elite for $25,000 new or $12,500 used - both well beyond my budget. Markups in the industry usually run 5-10X your cost. Now you can have a pair of Orions built for $5300 (the standard package includes an ATI amp for $1200 more) - although the DIY price is still a substantial savings. IOW, you can spend a lot less if you build your own and have fun in your workshop. The other big thing is that you have access to a lot of less popular speaker designs that you'd have a hard time buying. Dynamic driver open baffles fall into this category along with single driver, line array, and transmission line speakers. If you want a top-notch speaker I wouldn't try my own design unless you want to pursue speaker building as a hobby for years. Use (perhaps buy) one from some one whose tastes seem to match yours. While getting flat on-axis response might be a textbook exercise, the off-axis response has a huge amount to do with how natural a speaker sounds. Speaker builders have gone through 30 iterations of baffle dimensions to optomize it. |
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GK | Hi Drew Thanks for the input Excuse me but I think it's the first time I hear of Open Baffle... Could you explain me what exactly this is, and what are the differences with conventional dynamic speakers and electrostatic-magnetostatic speakers. thanks... |
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timn8ter | Open Baffle (OB) speakers are exactly as the name implies, instead of a box, the speakers are mounted on a baffle that may or may not have sides on it. The drivers used are typically those that don't rely on the air pressure inside a box to control the excursion of the cone. They have enough mechanical and electrical control (Qms and Qes) to keep the voice coil from leaving the magnetic field. There is a lot of information from people that have built OB speakers on http://f18.parsimony.net/forum31999/index.htm If you'd like more information on Seigfeid Linkwitz's Orion go to http://www.linkwitzlab.com |
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timn8ter | Seigfreid Linkwitz's explanation of open baffle/constant directivity loudspeakers and room acoustics should answer many of your questions. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/design_of_loudspeakers.htm |
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GK | Well - I read these pages, but still I don't get the point. If Open Baffle is just about taking the same drivers from a conventional speaker and putting them together without a box actually, what's the difference with - let's say - a car's speaker? And how come boxes even exist if the open baffle is supperior in sound and does not need a box??? |
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GK | What I was thinking about when talking of diy, is building my own sound system, for the reasons of sound quality and price. But I have no technician or engineer skills, nor do I know anything about electronics. Actually I'm just a musician. I have a NAD T742 Receiver which I like a lot it's sound. I was thinking there could be speakers that would be easy enough to build myself. Especially I was after single-driver full-range speakers, since I don't want to mess up with crossovers, and since the idea of a unified sounding speaker seems nice to me. Then I found out about electrostatic and other planar drivers, and I liked the idea of light-mass drivers, I thought this is either easy to make and best quality. Then I found out that it's not as easy as I thought, and there could be problems either with finding material, and making a single-driver full-rage speaker with these technologies. Now I hear of open baffle which, seems easy to make since there's no box, but I don't understand the idea of it, and if it's possible to make a "one-way" speaker with open baffle enclosure. If I'm right - I could just take my wharfedale speaker, cut it out so I only stay with the front panel and the mounted drivers and use it as an open-baffle. This would give me better sound quality than the boxed wharfedale I started with???? if so then why did they bother making a box in the first place????? And last - the open baffle, as I understand it, does not give a solution to the heavy-mass drivers used in conventional speakers - since it uses the same drivers..... so planars or ribbons should still be supperior???? am I wrong??? |
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timn8ter | Quote:"The drivers used are typically those that don't rely on the air pressure inside a box to control the excursion of the cone. They have enough mechanical and electrical control (Qms and Qes) to keep the voice coil from leaving the magnetic field." I never said they were the same as a boxed system. If you like the idea of single driver speakers I once again suggest that you visit: |
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timn8ter | Quote:"And how come boxes even exist if the open baffle is supperior in sound and does not need a box???" There are many factors to consider. What is your goal? How much money do you want to spend? How much room do you have? All speaker designs are compromises and every listener has his/her personal preferences when it comes to how a speaker sounds. It depends on what you're willing to sacrifice to get what you want. Efficiency, accuracy, low frequency response, box/baffle size and price are the factors but you can't have a small, cheap, accurate, high efficiency system that produces low bass. So where do you compromise? |
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GK | Let's say I want to build a single-driver-full-range speaker. My bookshelf wharfedales lack the depth I'm looking for, so maybe this could be some guide. For now size doesn't matter. About frequency response - the commercial speakers I considered so far never exceeded the 36-40 Hz, but were all at least up to 20 KHz capable (I'm talking about the Monitor Audio Bronze series). Maybe this means I could compromise a little for frequency response??? I still don't understand this very well. I know that the lowest piano key is around 27Hz - so I won't hear it in my speakers??? Next important thing is that I'd like my NAD T742 to be able to drive the speakers, so probably 8ohms is best ...(?) And very important: I want it to be very cheap - because I never did something like that, so I don't want to end up putting money for something that will maybe never work. This said, what kind of driver should I want to use? should I stick with conventional dynamic drivers, or maybe I could go with planar or ribbon driver? are planar/ribbon are also capable of single-driver-full-range speakers? Thanks |
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timn8ter | I've yet to see a single driver solution that would span the 20Hz-20Khz range. You're forced to sacrifice one end of the scale. Ribbons and planars will not go low and are typically used with a cone woofer and they're more expensive than cone drivers. A good compromise may be a Voigt pipe with a Fostex FX200 driver. Here's a thread on the topic: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23194 You should move from this forum to a DIY forum. Lots of expert help there. |
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| Open baffle speakers have a controlled dispersion due to dipole cancelation, even in the bass region that has omnipolar radiation from box speakers. The response is 3dB down at 45 degrees off-axis, and there is no output at 90 degrees. Interaction with side walls is weaker than on a box speaker. The ratio of direct to reflected sound is 4.8dB better than with a box speaker. You do not suffer or benefit from room gain. The bass is _very_ natural. They do a good job at reproducing whatever ambiance is in the recording, perhaps because of how power response tracks on-axis response. They require a 6dB/octave equalization to achieve bass below their dipole roll-off point. This means that for each octave lower than Fequal, they require twice the driver displacement and four times the power of a sealed box (the comparison is worse for ported enclosures). One part of the solution is multiple high excursion bass drivers - each Orion has a pair of 10" Peerless XLS subwoofers that cost $127.50 each. In a commercial design, this would add $2500-$5000 to the MSRP. Audio Artistry's full-range dipoles with reasonable output cabilities sold for $13,000-$60,000. At the cross-over frequency, the resulting sensitivity is about 98dB/2.83V while the tweeter is 88dB/2.83V. To reach realistic output levels they must be actively bi-amplified. Obviously this means you can't drive them with a receiver. In spite of all this trouble and expense to get deep bass, they still lack the output to be run full-range for home theater use. While you have the excursion and power handling to hit 118dB @ 80Hz, you can only reach 100dB @ 40Hz, and 82dB @ 20Hz. Distance to the wall behind them is also more important than with conventional speakers - 4' is a nice starting point. These limitations really limit the market for commercial open-baffle speakers. |
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