New system - get better speakers or receiver?
|
New member Username: Underd0gDenver, CO USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-04 | I am currently researching buying my first receiver/speaker system. I have a great Sony 60we160 and would like a great sound system. I am thinking to spend around $1000 on the whole sound system to start. I had heard it is all about the receiver and thought to spend most of the money on the receiver, maybe yamaha RX-V1400. After reading some posts however, I have come to realize that you should buy great speakers instead. Is this assumption correct? What has everyone else done? What is the ratio you spend? 40% receiver / 60% speakers/sub ? |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | click on this: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/68594.html |
|
Unregistered guest | Jason, general rule of thumb is upgrade the source first. Reason for this is that a speaker, no matter how good, cannot improve upon the signal it's being sent. Some will claim there are few, if any differences between CD players (after all it's just 1's and 0's yeah?) but there are differences, believe me. I have an old cd player. 20 bit dac's as well as a new 24/96 player. Guess which one sounds better? The OLD one. By a country mile. So, start with source, cables for the source, then pre-amp/amp, followed by speaker cables and speakers. Make sense? |
|
Silver Member Username: EdisonGlendale, CA US Post Number: 414 Registered: Dec-03 | You can do better than a yamaha with an audio compnany called NAD. Try to hunt down an audio store that carries them and hear them your-self. For speakers, try to hear Monitor audio bronze Paradigm Psb Paradigm studio is an excellent speaker but will cost you a little more. I would recommend going that rout - if you want to do it right the first time. www.audiogon.com is an audio sight where you can get info and nuy used stuff - this way, you will end up with a better sounding system. Go slow, and try to hear many systems before committing - sounds like you are just getting into this thing. There is a lot to know. If you take the time to get to know something about audio, you will end up with a better sounding system. The audiogon is a good place to get info. If you want to keep it under your budget, you need to really shop smart to end up with a good sound. Best luck... |
|
Silver Member Username: Elitefan1Post Number: 513 Registered: Dec-03 | Jason, Think of this as putting together a puzzle where the pieces must fit properly together. This is no different. It doesn't matter whether you buy speakers or a receiver first as long as what you end up with fits together. I think it's best to settle on a budget, decide how much you want to spend of that on speakers and what type,[bookshelves vs floorstanders] and go from there. Find a speaker you really like and then it's pretty easy to find the right receiver to match those speakers characteristics. Utlimatly it doesn't matter as long as you match properly. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 868 Registered: Dec-03 | i completely agree with "therealelitefan" it does not really matter which comes first the source or the speakers. but personally i would find the speakers i like the sound of then get the electronics to match. i believe the speakers are the most important part of your system because if you don't like the way they sound nothing you do before them will change that. that doesn't mean that the other components don't need to be quality items to get good performance though. i don't look at it as a rule of thumb to spend x% on a certain piece. you will have to take into consideration about what it will cost to get the electronics you want/need then look at speakers in the range of what you have to spend. |
|
Unregistered guest | Jason, it's your money dude, so feel free to do so with it as you wish. Having said that, I sold hi end retail audio for a decade. In that decade, I cannot count how many times a customer came into my store seeking some advice on his/her system. I would say 75% of those customers had recently purchased new speakers and now were dissatisfied. Only thing they changed were the speakers, and they WERE better speakers than what they had previously. So, why did they sound WORSE? If you can answer that question without spending thousands of dollars or getting so frustrated you buy a Bose Waveradio, go for the speakers first. If not....you could save a ton of money and frustration starting at the source. Then the amp....then speakers. Floor standers might give you a little more low end, but stand mounts will almost always image better than floorstanders. They are also easier to place in your room. Two way's are generally better than 3way's. Additional crossover parts add cost, detract from the sound and mess up phase relationships. Again, your money but you did come here asking advice. Thats my .02 For what it's worth, I agree with the other posters about Yamaha. Way overpriced....most models anyway. You can do much better for less $$ H/K ,Onkyo, NAD, Cambridge, Panasonic XR-45, all would sound better than a comparable Yamaha product. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 879 Registered: Dec-03 | well jason it's pretty hard to decide when you get conflicting awnsers. but in my oppinion as long as you have descent electronics and cables the speakers are going to make a bigger impact than a new cable or a piece of electronics are. so i feal the opposite of maui. if you spend most of your money on the electronics and cables you will suffer the throws of not getting the speakers you really wanted and will regret that choice. their are much bigger differences in how a speaker sounds than any cable or electronics. that isn't to say if you have great speakers and crap electonics that you have a good sounding system. just make sure you don't skimp on the speakers to pay more for electronics and cables. get speakers that you really like the way they sound then get the best electronics you can afford then finally descent cables. that is my oppinion on how a system should be built. |
|
Jimvm Unregistered guest | Ditto to KEGGER's post. |
|
Unregistered guest | Jason, think it don't happen even to established audiophiles? Read this link. Then answer. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/338270.html Basically, the dude says this: "I decided to up grade just recently. My rational being that perhaps some new speakers and and a new amp might improve the sound through out". He goes on to add "However i fancied a bit of Oasis tonight. My old system didnt do a bad job with it, but this new combo is embarrasingly bad. Played definatly maybe and then Whats the story morning glory and both so bad, very bad!! If you can imagine putting 10 blankets over your speakers and pulling a hat over your ears in addition, this is how it sounded. Compressed, muffled, muddy, shut in, soft,weightless, tizzy.. horrid!!!! Virtually unlistenable." Jason.......again.....it's your money. Listen to whomever you think you can afford. 'Nuff said. |
|
Unregistered guest | Jason....nothing quite like 3rd party testemonial to support my point. Read my earlier post about the frustration and buying a Bose Waveradio. Then check out this guys parting comments. Priceless!. Here they are: "So there you go £ 1000 on new speakers and a new amp and thats what you get!" And finally the clincher: "whats the point? Might as well buy a basic midi system like my mums everything seems to sound fine on that! And if you think i sound bitter i am!"  I rest my case. |
|
Unregistered guest | Sorry guys but I can't resist. Lets take Kegger and JimVm's plan for your money and see how it worked in this instance k Jason? Kegger says " but in my oppinion as long as you have descent electronics and cables the speakers are going to make a bigger impact than a new cable or a piece of electronics are" Lets test that theory. In this case, our customer has a rotel 855 CD player, a Rotel 1062 intergrated amp,and QED XT-350 speaker cable costing £ 15 per metre. I'd say that fits the bill of "decent electronics and cables, wouldn't you Jason? So, our customer basically followed Kegger and JimVm's advice, no? He chose to upgrade his speakers and amp, but not the source. AND, keep in mind he upgraded those speakers from his original brand speakers....not something new. He was very familiar with that brand's "sound" He must have liked what he heard in the store....he DID buy them. Read his post. He DID listen before buying. He don't seem happy to me. Does he seem happy to you Jason? So Jason, here's the question I put to you. Do you wanna follow in this guys footsteps? A simple yes or no will suffice. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 883 Registered: Dec-03 | maui whats up dude! are you that insecure with your suggestion? you gave your oppinion. and i gave mine. let the man decide. i could scour the internet too and find support. i could run all over the place to support the way i build a system to if i wanted too, but i'm not that interested if the guy believes me or not. i could tell em i've beeen selling equipment and played aucustic guitar for 20 years to try and sway him. but for what. he asked for oppinions mine just happens to differ from yours.so once you post and give your view no more should post because you have it covered? well i would imagine unless they have the same view! get a life, go surfin or something! there will allways be oppinions that differ from yours. that's why they are "oppinions" |
|
Jimvm Unregistered guest | Ditto to KEGGER's post. |
|
Unregistered guest | Kegger & Jimvm, Don't mean to step on your toes or anything, but the man asked for advice. I feel it's imperative to give the right advice, not the wrong advice. Your giving him the wrong advice. Advice that can lead to the man becoming frustrated and spending way too much money. See, I posted the link not so much to prove my point, but to make him read all the so called "expert" advise he got in A/A also. Again, advise that will cost him a small fortune, and make him frustrated. So Kegger and Jimvm, continue if you like to build your personal audio system anyway you wish. Your the ones that have to shoulder the cost of your mistakes. Jason was simply trying to avoid those mistakes. Opinions are one thing. Your giving flat out wrong advice. MIS-information, if you will. I don't think that benefits you two or this forum in anyway. I'm not here to argue, but to aid people from making the type of mistakes that the advice given in this instance will surely lead to. Feel free to dissagree with me, but make sure you have something tangible to back it up. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 884 Registered: Dec-03 | again thats "your" oppinion that were wrong! noone elses but "yours" and my oppinion is "you" are wrong! they are 2 oppinions that happen to differ! and if you look around this forum many have the same views as myself. and i don't feel they are all wrong to. later! |
|
Jimvm Unregistered guest | Ditto to KEGGER's post. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | The only point I will make here is the same one I made over and over to my clients. A speaker is a transducer, it takes one form of energy (electrical) and converts it to another form of energy (mechanical). Any transducer is ultimately flawed in that it will have inaccurracies that are inherent in the transfer process. That means any transducer will change the sound of the system when you change the transducer. That DOESN'T mean it will necessarily improve the system. A change in sound is merely hearing more bass in a certain frequency band, say between 50 - 150 Hz has jumped up 2 dB. At another point the midrange will be down a few dB and so on. It makes it pretty easy to hear the difference between several pairs of speakers. Speakers also can play louder or less loudly due to efficiency differences. (If you don't know what this is check "definitons and descriptions".) Sources and amplification devices are mostly flat frequency response, or at least we hope they are. There are exceptions, check Larry R.'s latest posts on "Twilight of the CD" under "DVD-A/SACD" for an example of a JVC player that seems to have a problem with frequency response and just getting the music out to the rest of the system. If the electronics are essentially flat response then what are they doing to make your system better? They are retrieving more information to be passed on to the speakers. They are providing more rythmic flow to the music and they are dealing with the complexity of making a loudspeaker do what the amp wants instead of what the speaker naturally wants to do, you know that old "things in motion tend to ..." stuff. So the answer, I feel, is more to the question of what are you trying to accomplish? If you are disatisfied with the overall tonal balance of your system, you want more bass or treble in terms of amount or you want the system to play louder, then speakers will achieve that more than any other component. But don't confuse more bass and treble with more clarity or more musical information. The speaker cannot put in something that was never there in the first place. I had this discussion with Gregory on another site. He claimed only speakers can create a soundstage not amplifiers or source equipment. I don't understand how there can be CD/no soundstage, then pre amp/no stage, then amp/no stage, then speakers and you get a soundstage. Where did it come from? Unless you have some pretty bizarre speakers they should be adding as little as possible to the mix. So, in my opinion, the soundstage has to be there and is passed along the chain of command till it reaches the speakers which then have to make it all come together in the room. But if the information is not there being fed to the speaker the speakers cannot create something that never existed. Therefore, if you are looking for DIFFERENT sound buy speakers. If you are looking for more clarity, more information more life to the music buy what's in front of the speakers. If you have a camera with a cracked lens you won't get better pictures by buying a better camera body and puting the cracked lens (the piece that feeds the information to the camera body) on that better cammera. You solve that problem from the front end. If you have a car that you are trying to make go faster you assess where you need to put your efforts. How often are the tires the first thing you change? Sometimes but not usually. If you have a faucet that is barely putting out water, unless it is hopelessly clogged, you're better off changing the pipes first to get more (material) flow to the faucet. The logic is still "Garbage in/Garbage out". That should solve the problem. Now, everyone to your corners and come out swinging. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 885 Registered: Dec-03 | i understand where your coming from jan i truly do. just like therealelitefan said all the pieces have to fit. if you don't have quality before your speakers you won't get quality out of your speakers. i get that. the whole system has to perform as 1 unit. but i still believe with good electronics and cables that speakers make more of a difference in sound quality than changing a component that is allready good and fits the system properly. thats all i'm saying. yes you need good electronics and cables but if i audition good speakers versus good electronics or good cables. personally i hear more of a difference and or quality of sound on the speakers than either of the other two. that is if you are auditioning all good quality gear to start with. whether the speaker images better or the bass is more solid or the tweeter rings just right. could be better drivers in the speaker or a better crossover or a really well braced/well made cabinet. my belief is if you get the speakers you want, the upgrade path is longer than a reciever or prepro or dvd player with the way the industry changes. you should be able to keep your speakers longer. if your talking 2 channel it "can" be diferent. your amp,preamp,trasnsport may last you quite some time before you feel the need to upgrade. so if you spend a little more on those you may be able to keep them longer.but then your probably talking about a different league of system and your speakers will more than likely be fairly expensive also. then you have tube audio equipment those pieces have quite a change on your system vurses solid state. some enjoy the difference and some do not. but if you go tube products you have to match them also as you know. if you have an 8watt amp you batter get some very efficient speakers. but also if you have speakers that are maybe a little bright and have extra bottom end plus are pretty efficent you could get some older tube gear that rolls off the highs and lows plus doesn't put out much power.thus the speakers could come first then you get your electronics. so it doesn't matter which comes first as long as the system fits together properly. but i truly enjoy how a speaker sounds. to me theirs not much better than a really good sounding tweeter or some sweet vocals from a great midrange. match that up with some nice electronics and you got a very nice system in my oppinion. chears everyone! just listen to the music and enjoy. |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 341 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi All, It seems I returned from vacation, only to step back to this old dog fight. BTW, I had a great time, thank you. I don't think I can say it any better than Jan put it: Garbage in-Garbage out. Start your system with the best source component you can afford, and build from there. If you have great speakers and electronics, but a poor source component, you'll get poor sound nicely amplified and well presented. Cheers! |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 887 Registered: Dec-03 | just for the record when i say electronics the source is included in that. cd player/tape unit/dvd player/turntable they are all electronic devices. maybe that is where we are getting confused. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I have heard $10,000 worth of electronics driving $250 speakers and $500 electronics driving $8,000 speakers. I know where I would start. |
|
Jimvm Unregistered guest | In my opinion, the things that have the biggest impact on the sound in an audio system are the following in this order: 1. Speakers 2. Speaker placement 3. Room acoustics (furniture, drapery, etc.) 4. Source (CD, DVD, etc.) 5. Amplification and Processor (in either order) Every one of these things has an effect on the sound. Changing any one of these things can improve or degrade the sound. If Jason's plan is to attempt to improve the sound of his system by changing all of these things one at a time, he can begin with any of them. It's just that if he begins with the speakers he will notice the biggest immediate improvement. Then he can follow with the source components and amplification, etc. If he begins with the "electronics," he will not experience immediate improvement that is as dramatic as if he began with the speakers. I don't view this as rocket science or some secret formula that dictates which way it must be done. If it were me, I would begin with the speakers so I could experience the most dramatic improvement as soon as I could. That's me. If someone wanted to begin with the electronics, that's okay too. But to treat this as if he would be committing audio hara-kiri if he began with the speakers is silly. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 890 Registered: Dec-03 | Jimvm that is exactly how i feel. as long as you get their in the end what does it matter where you start. and agreed the speakers are going to give you the biggest impact. |
|
mauimusicman Unregistered guest | So, if good ole Jason buys new, better speakers and hooks em up to his new Yamaha reciever, he's going to expect it to sound better, not worse. However, if Jason buys some low impedence speakers like Infinity, for example, that Yamaha won't have the current to drive them properly. Also, if his cd player, cables, pre-amp or amp have any other irregularities, all the better speaker will do is more clearly reveal each and every fault prior to it in the chain. Poor Jason. I once sold a turntable to a guy named Sam Mcfaddin. He was lead singer/ guitarist for Flash Cadillac. Every other salesman was trying to sell him new speakers. Suffice it to say he was my customer for life after that. Good luck Jason. I'm out of here. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 894 Registered: Dec-03 | it sounds like maui just made a good point of buying the speakers first. "However, if Jason buys some low impedence speakers like Infinity, for example, that Yamaha won't have the current to drive them properly." i agree. but if he bought the yamaha first he could not have the oppertunity to buy the low impedence speakers like Infinity. but if he bought the speakers first now he knows he needs a reciever to handle low impedance speakers. so he can choose another reciever. to go with the speakers he liked. that will support them properly. |
|
Jimvm Unregistered guest | Hey maui - you gave your advice and the reasons for it. KEGGER and I gave our advice and the reasons for it. Now, Jason can make up his mind. We don't have to continue with this debate; you're not going to convince me I'm wrong and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. So let's stop beating a dead horse -- unless of course, you get some kind of enjoyment out of it, in which case, flail away. Regards to all. And good luck Jason! |
|
Bronze Member Username: CorneliusPost Number: 12 Registered: Jun-04 | I start with the cables, and match the rest of my system from there. Ha! Jason, how ya making out? I think the real answer to your question is - it depends. Just snoop around for a nice combo without the spending ratios too different from on another. |
|
Anonymous | I start with the CDs! Poorly recorded & engineered CDs will give you crappy sound no matter how good your transport or amplifier or speakers are! Sorry couldn't resist |
|
Unregistered guest | Kegger, wrong again. IF Jason followed my advice he would NEVER purchase a Yamaha product in the first place. If he bought the speakers first, as you suggest, then the Infinity's, he's back at the same point as the poster at A/A.....only changed speakers but sound is much worse....therefore speakers must suck. No way around this issue.....upgrade SOURCE FIRST. Speakers last. Oh and "anonymous" your post did not go un-noticed. I have a plethora of recordings both on cd as well as vinyl that would easily meet your standard of "Poorly recorded & engineered CDs" NONE of them sound "crappy" on my system. Then again, I didn't follow the others advise that leaves 50% of your music collection unlistenable. ALL of my music is very listenable...no matter if on cd or vinyl. Perhaps you need to upgrade. But ask the other posters here..........they have all the answers. |
|
Unregistered guest | Kegger, you've been pretty confident about your "opinion" as have I about mine. Are you telling me the Audio Asylum guy did NOT have what you would call decent product driving his speakers? Are you saying that the rotel 855 CD player, Rotel 1062 intergrated amp,and QED XT-350 speaker cable costing £ 15 per metre are crap? If so, show me one credible review stating that fact. If not, why then, was the man un-happy with his amp/speaker "upgrade"? Lets hear your sollution, Kegger. Or perhaps, Jimvm could chime in with something more than "ditto to keggers post". Or hey, perhaps a REAL expert on audio: Anonnymous would give us his/her opinion. Lets hear it gentlemen. Jason is gonna listen to one of us. Why should he listen to you and not me? |
|
Unregistered guest | Jimvm, you state: "If Jason's plan is to attempt to improve the sound of his system by changing all of these things one at a time, he can begin with any of them. It's just that if he begins with the speakers he will notice the biggest immediate improvement" Jim, nothing could be further from the truth. Lets say, jason has his Yamaha reciever. he has a pair of Yamaha speakers(yuk) He takes your advice. He does months of research on speakers. His research concludes him to run out and purchase one of the following speakers: Quad Electrostatics; Magnaplaner's or Accoustat 2+2's. He rushes home........hooks up his new "toys" expecting to be in hi fi heaven. Turns on his trusty Yamaha reciever and as the very first note on his cd plays..........the Yamaha shuts off. Try as he may, it simply will NOT play music thru these speakers. What is poor Jason to think? He followed your advice, as well as Keggers advice. he thought he had "decent electronics" Yamaha IS decent, no? Now he turns to you for help, not advice. Whats your reply, jimmv? Jason just spent $2k on YOUR advice and not only is he NOT happy, his Yamaha is dead too. Guess what Jason thinks of you now? |
|
grandpabobby Unregistered guest | Jason, Speakers are the most important component in the sound chain. This is true because they are mechanical and essentially use the same technology available to Edison and Bell. Speakers cannot be mass produced as can pc boards and ICs. The price of CD players has come down by a factor of 10 times or more due to technology and mass production. I will tell you that a $50 player and and a $500 player sound within 10% or 20% of each other (at least when new)and listened to on very good speakers. The freq response will be nearly identical and the distortion identical to the first 3 or so decimal plces. Speakers have gone up in price while electronics has gone down because the increase price of every type of raw material used in the construction. You can't cheat on speaker design without compromising the sound. The laws of physics say so. Yes, you need to make sure your amp has enough power to drive them without distortion, but other than that, I would spend at least half the budget on speakers. Used ones are an option, too. I look on ebay and see which brands are bid upon -- they are usually the ones with higher resale value when you want to trade up. |
|
Jimvm Unregistered guest | Maui - Take a breath and read my last post. I'm not here to debate or to beat a dead horse. I gave my best advice and Jason is free to follow it or, alternatively, to follow yours. I've better things to do than to wring my hands over Jason's decision. Get a grip; this is not a life and death issue. It's only audio. |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 940 Registered: Dec-03 | i second Jimvm i'm not going to be roped into some silly debate of who can design the better system. but the one thing i will say is that no i don't consider yamaha descent equipment at least not the stuff they have put out lately. but the new 1400 and 2400 are starting to pull me back into their camp. they sound and seem to be better than the past few years have given us. and now support a 4 ohm load. but it seems to me your aa guy said his system sounded pretty darn good before he changed speakers so if it did not afterwords then he either bought inferior speakers to the ones he had or the ones he got just were not condusive to his system. you know the all the pieces must fit properly rule. just like we said it's pretty simple not rocket science. if you buy speakers first then you get electronics to fit them. if you buy electronics first then you get speakers to fit them. it's really that easy doesn't matter where you start as long as you end up with all the pieces fitting together. you keep throwing out these options that don't fit and expect we would have done that. when we are telling you the pieces need to fit each other. and again you are saying he has this yamaha and then gets speakers that don't work. you must read what you post you are giving him electronics first then speakers that don't match. where as if he got his speakers first he knows what electronics he needs to power them. anyways i can't say anymore than what i have. so if you want to keep wailing away at what you believe is the only way to build a system go ahead. i've stated how i would do it and when logic is entered into the equation works quite well. so go ahead rant and rave till your hearts content. i'm done! |
|
Unregistered guest | Kegger, i'm glad auto mechanic's don't work like you assemble hi fi systems. If so, you'd go in with a charging problem and get a new muffler. Process of elimination....works in audio, why not auto mechanics? What if doctors worked that way? My question was not "Is Yamaha decent"? It was "Is ROTEL decent?" The answer, obviously, is of course it is. As far as the A/A guy goes, if his system sounded pretty darn good, why upgrade? He wanted it to sound better. Thats why we all upgrade. One of the big delima's in audio is knowing what is and what isn't an upgrade. He thought he was upgrading. He downgraded. But not with the speakers. He downgraded his amp. He UPgraded his speakers. But because the amp was downgraded, and prior to the speaker in the chain, the system got markedly worse. As far as getting roped into some silly debate, first, it's not a debate. It's known audio science. Linn-Sondek's entire company belief is source first. Any audio dealer worth his salt knows that as well, as do many audiophiles. Second, if you suggest an upgrade to someone, ESPECIALLY as a DEALER, claiming knowledge of audio systems, and your wrong, you cannot simple say "I don't wanna get into some silly debate with you" Your already deep into it. So is he. Thats why there are so many audio nightmares out there. Too many people claiming to know that don't know. It's ok to give an opinion, but when you give advice thats ultimately going to lead to frustration and be costly, thats bad. |
|
Anonymous | Did ya get all that, Jason?????? :o) |
|
New member Username: Underd0gDenver, CO USA Post Number: 4 Registered: Jul-04 | Wow! I didn't realize I would start such a debate! =] Maybe to clarify some points . . . Unfortunately, never had a receiver/speakers/sub before so I am not upgrading, but starting from ground zero. With this big TV I am looking for more of a home theater setup. I am married, so I can't buy all of these things at once and am on a semi-limited budget. That is the main reason for asking the ratio. I appreciate everyone for helping out with the multitude of experience displayed here. I liked grandpabobby's point about the speakers. Also, my bro-in-law has some wall mounted infinity speakers that sound great (I have heard not to mount them in your walls because it limits them) so I was leaning toward a pair of Infinity front speakers (I was thinking towers until mauimusicman said "Floor standers might give you a little more low end, but stand mounts will almost always image better than floorstanders. They are also easier to place in your room. " which makes sense. Glad to hear the Yamaha's receivers are overpriced and might not even drive Infinity speakers! =0 I will have to check out these H/K ,Onkyo, NAD, Cambridge, Panasonic XR-45 recommended by mauimusicman again, more for the money is good. But Kegger says the 1400 is bringing him back to Y-camp and I was looking at that model, but thought it might be too much for me right now. This discussion has been very helpful. It sounds like if you get great speakers, you will have them for a long time and if they are great speakers then they would need a good receiver to drive them! Argh! However, I could always upgrade the receiver later . . . ;) |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 957 Registered: Dec-03 | maui "Yamaha reciever and as the very first note on his cd plays..........the Yamaha shuts off. Try as he may, it simply will NOT play music thru these speakers. What is poor Jason to think? He followed your advice, as well as Keggers advice. he thought he had "decent electronics" Yamaha IS decent, no?" sounds like you are asking about yamaha to me! .............................. JASON i hope you have been able to decipher some good advice from your thread and decide for yourself what the right path is for you. good luck. and i think if you read well enough you will be able to get some good knowlage from your thread that will help you. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | I have heard $10,000 worth of electronics driving $250 speakers and $500 electronics driving $8,000 speakers. I know where I would start. Well, it just seemed appropriate! |
|
Silver Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 958 Registered: Dec-03 | also maui i love the way you interpret things. either what i said "and turn it into your own way" or others. this quote: "So i got rid of the old castles and repalced them with the new smaller, slimmer latest version of the same model (durham 3)" new smaller slimmer, that doesn't really sound like upgrading to me. that sounds like changing, and doesn't really mean better. for all we know his old speakers might have been better. you keep throwing together these scenarios that you believe for some reason that some of us would. but it's not what we would do. you keep saying he got this amp then these speakers when we said in the first get the speakers then the appropriate amp. that's why i say i'm done with this. you keep throwing these crap options together and say how about that one. dude yur loosing it. I AM done and will no longer be posting on this thread. it's a useless waste of time when someone is trying to rope you into something that you never said in the first place. |
|
Unregistered guest | J.Vigne, you and I know what some of the other posters have yet to find out. Guess it's part of the audio education process. I too, have heard big $$ equipment on cheapo speakers. For example, the Golmund reference turntable playing thru the big $10K Edge amp on speakers costing $800.00. Stunning sound. Jaw dropping. I have also heard a Pioneer cd player thru an Amber power/pre amp driving the $90K Infinity IRS. I'd take the former system anyday as the latter simply was boring and unmusical. As the old saying goes: you can lead a horse to water........ |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Say goodnight, Gracie. |
|
Unregistered guest | Jason, on the Linn-Sondek web site, one of the UK's top hi end audio manufacturer's, this is what they say in regards to your delima. And I quote "Linn's philosophy is simple: Start with the best source you can afford and work your way out. This will help make sure the best information is being fed into your loudspeakers for the best output. Best regards, Cappy MacPherson Linn Inc." Goodnight Gracie |
|
shank Unregistered guest | Just curious, what stuff does Linn-Sondek make? Do they make speakers? or do they make sources? Always consider the source of your information (no punn intneded). |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | good point shank! I bet speaker manufacturers would have a different view! |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | WHOA!!! You guys are good! What does Linn make? Tell you what, go to their web site and see what you find. This isn't 1976 anymore, guys. Linn makes and sells an entire line of products. Consider your source. |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | yes linn makes some speakers but there main focus is everything else. what i meant was i bet a speaker company would have a different point of view is all. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Yeah, Cerwin Vega might. Tell you what, let's try Naim, they don't really make sources or speakers. |
|
Unregistered guest | Bottom line is this guys/gals: Those of you among us that want to follow the "Upgrade speakers first" path will almost certianly 1) spend substantially more money 2) Become more frustrated and 3) Give up the hobby most of the time. I would bet that even most reputable speaker manufacturers would sugest upgrading the source first. After all, they too want their product to sound good, get "word of mouth" advertising, and most importantly, STAY SOLD. So, Mr Johnson, contact some speakers manufacturers and let us know what they say, ok? Reputable manufacturers only, please. No Bose, etc. |
|
DRY. martini Unregistered guest | WELL AS MUCH AS MR. MAUI IS TRYING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE. I'm in the camp as quite a few others i've seen. I really like to pick whatever speakers i want and plan to keep them for awhile. so for me I get the speakers first because those are the ones i've wanted or heard and really liked. then i get the rest of the system to match my speakers. sure you could do it the other way but you might limit yourself to speakers that can work with your setup. I would much rather have to use different equipment to go with my speakers than settle for speakers that work with my gear. heck if i got all my gear first then found a pair speakers i really wanted and they didn't go with my gear i'd probably have to end up spending more money to change my gear for the speakers i wanted. I figure " 1) spend substantially more money 2) Become more frustrated and 3) Give up the hobby most of the time." that would happen if i went equipment first. I want to able to use any speaker i like then fill in the gear from their. for me that works better than going the other way. |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 119 Registered: Jul-04 | Jason: sounds like you stepped into it here, my friend! I hope that you are doing one thing: going around and hearing as many speakers and amps and CD players, etc. as you can. Try many different combinations - you will hear a lot of difference. BUT beware deadly "showroom" effect. You will NOT hear the same thing at an audio retailer as you hear in your own listening room. I would avoid Yamaha - for the money, I'd say go with NAD, Onkyo or the likes - both good value and fine sound. I have a new Onkyo 701 that gives a lot of flexibility and SEEMS to give great sound. BUT - I also have some Polk RTi6 speakers which - on extended listening - don't seem all that natural for opera and classical listening. HOWEVER - (here we go) - my "weak link" may be, after all - tah-dah! - my CD player. It is a highly-rated JVC XV-N55SL - plays DVD movies with picture so fine it makes us tingle - BUT - the CD sound is flat, tinny, and thin. What happened? Don't know, but DO know the thing must go. Have I wasted time and money? Probably - so go slowly and try to listen to as many possible pieces of equipment as you can - WITH YOUR OWN CDs. That's VERY important! If you know what you like, and have CDs you think are good, then that's the way you MUST go! Otherwise, you'll be hearing whatever the sale-mopes want you to hear. BTW - I spent many happy years in Denver, first with Ch. 4, then with Ch. 2 television. Many, many moons ago!! Respectfully, Larry R. |
|
misterHT Unregistered guest | 1. For $1000 you are not going to get a decent system. 2. Spend at least $400 on a receiver and $1500 on speakers - MINIMUM for the speakers. 3. Get the receiver FIRST. No question about it. You won't know what any speakers REALLY sound like with a crap amp. Good speakers accurately reprodce the sound they receive. Anything else is adding to or subtracting from the mix. Garbage in/garbage out. |
|
DRY. martini Unregistered guest | larry I would definatley agree you need a new cd player. misterht I think we have all pretty much agreed you need quality components behind your speakers, thats not an issue. The issue was whether or not your speakers are more important. and it sounds like you are on the side of yes they are. with saying how much to spend on each. and I agree with you. so yes I am in the same camp as yourself but I would make sure the reciever I get matches the speakers I want. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 25 Registered: May-04 | Whoaaa! Interesting post. Source first. Look at it like this. Take your larynx out it doesn't matter how good a mouth you've got It's not going to sound all that good. Same in audio, crap source = crap sound. From the source everything gets worse from there. Or does the amplifier magically pull more out of a CD than the CD Reader itself? I don't think so! What other possible option is there, or am I missing the point? As for LINN? As everyone here claims to know so much about HI END equipment i'm rather surprised that this name hasn't reared it's rather outstanding little head before. Jason, I will only reiterate what Maui has already said. Save yourself a lot of money and grief and get it right. Source first. Maui sold HI END. I own HI END. My CD Player is the most expensive component in my system. The amps second, Then the speakers. Also a considerable sum on cable (I'm not going there again!) I've made mistakes before, we all have one of my early ones was to listen to people telling me an amplifier is the most important thing. Well what can I say Several amps and several thousand pounds later (You never get what you paid for for the gear - another myth!) Hmmmm.... The amp isn't the most important thing after all! It's The SOURCE!!! (Literal meaning: Where eyerything comes from!) |
|
ABC Unregistered guest | good equipment, good speakers = good sound |
|
swampcat Unregistered guest | Buy seperates, forget recievers , even a good integrated amp. |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 365 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi All, Let me give you a little insight if I may. I have been fooling around with audio gear for 34 years. It has to be SOURCE FIRST. Signal in-signal out. Crap in-crap out. It shouldn't be that hard to understand. Let's build a system for an example. Wison Audio Watt Puppies 6.0's Krell amp & pre-amp Goldstar CD player How is the system going to sound? You are going to have crap cleanly amplified and presented in fine detail. Get the idea? Cheers! |
|
GATORMAN Unregistered guest | rick and like so many others why does it have to be source first? if you and up with the same equipment! it makes no sense at all. if i buy a desent cd player first than a good reciever then some good speakers. or i buy good speakers first then a good reciever that matches well with my speakers. then i buy a really good cd player. which system is going to sound better? the first one because i bought the cd player first? c'mon guy's be realistic hear. it doesn't matter what order you do it in as long as all the pieces fit right. i don't think anyone is saying buy crap source then get really good speakers! most of the posts i've seen hear say get good source and good speakers. just some people want to get their speakers first. so what big deal get um! than get yourself good gear. as long as in the end everything from the begining of the chain on up is good it's the same as starting from the source. |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 127 Registered: Jul-04 | Rick Barnes: Cleanly stated, Rick. It speaks to my personal dilemma - a JVC $75 CD player, with a $700 Onkyo 701 receiver and $400 Polk RTi6 speakers. OK - which is the worst - and why? Well, I auditioned all of them - separately, unfortunately. Thought the speakers were fine - in a showroom. Thought the receiver was fine - in another showroom. Thought the player was fine - but in a showroom and with DVD movies, not CDs. Aha!!! a lapse on my part, and a serious one! Now, I'm left with a system that doesn't live up to my expectations - and I have to start the replacement waltz. As you say, Rick, I'll be changing out the CD player first - this fall. With a SACD/CD/DVD player that has a bit better credentials. Then later will come new speakers - hoping for B & W 705s - with a subwoofer. The receiver will be dealt with last, if, indeed, I change it. I am not an electronics specialist - I know music, not wires. So I rely to a large extent on the knowledge of you all on this forum, and what I can glean from my reading. I get it: Big C in, Big C out. Makes sense. Respectfully, Larry R. |
|
Unregistered guest | Gatorman, you say "if you and up with the same equipment! it makes no sense at all" If....IF...IF IF frogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their butts. IF my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. People get SO into speakers.....'cause thats where the sound comes from, right? WRONG. Again, the speaker.....and PLEASE READ THIS...CAN ONLY REPRODUCE THE SIGNAL IT'S BEING SENT. If that signal is great.....sound will relate.....but...if that signal is not great....where are you? People think since most systems are CD based, all cd players sound the same. NOTHING could be further from the truth. Like all the seasoned audiophiles in here agree...SOURCE FIRST. if your still not convinced, well then you deserve to waste time, money and effort........ |
|
Unregistered guest | LarryR, you say " Thought the speakers were fine - in a showroom. Thought the receiver was fine - in another showroom. Thought the player was fine - but in a showroom and with DVD movies, not CDs. Aha!!! a lapse on my part, and a serious one! Now, I'm left with a system that doesn't live up to my expectations - and I have to start the replacement waltz" Now, take the advice approach that speakers make the biggest difference and lets see where that leads you ok? Replace the Polks. Audition some world class speakers IN YOUR HOME. Try some Von Schweikert, or some Sonus Faber or some Meadowlark, or some Green Mountain Audio's. Your system will sound worse. Promise. But, many many among us fall into that trap. And, it's hard to get out of it once your in. Or, just replace that JVC as I recomended.......you'll be smilin' then for lots less $$$$$$ BTW, the system JVigne assembled above? Wison Audio Watt Puppies 6.0's Krell amp & pre-amp Goldstar CD player How will it sound? Like the Goldstar cd player. Not good. Good job J.Vigne |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 130 Registered: Jul-04 | Mauimusicman: Trying to play hopscotch here, as I tend to get a bunch of forum replies all together in my e-mail in-box. Whew! Anyway - on a parallel thread I replied to your comments about getting a new CD player. Message received, my friend, and that is (ALL READERS PLEASE NOTE) the next step for me - promise! I am just a big flummoxed, because the JVC unit gives such sterling pictures, as well as very good DVD sound. How, then, can it be so shrill and tinny on CD sound? Hey - I studied Journalism and Creative Writing, not Physics! Sigh. Just trying to learn here - not to criticize. So give me a coupl-ah months, and when the new SACD/CD/DVD players come out I'll start the read/listen process all over again, and get a player that I can both afford and enjoy. I hope. Maybe. With help of y'all. thanx - Larry R. |
|
GATORMAN Unregistered guest | maui you are so dense it's unbelievable. all over your post it's well if you have bad source you will end up with bad sound. WE KNOW! WE HAVE SAID THE SAME THING! but if you got something else besides the source first and still got GREAT SOURCE LATER, YOU STILL HAVE GREAT SOURCE! FOR SOME REASON YOU ASSUME THAT IF YOU GOT SOURCE LAST THAT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A GOOD ONE, WHEN WE HAVE ALL STATED YOU NEED GREAT SOURCE! if i am building a system and i happen to get a great deal on a piece of equipment and it's not the source i can't buy it? well i'm going to, and I AM GOING TO MAKE SURE I STILL GET GREAT SOURCE LIKE EVERYONE HAS SAID! that's it for some reason your not understanding we all want great source even if we got it last. because larry did not get a quality source has no relavence to when he got it. he just didn't get a good one. so now do we all agree we need good source? EVEN IF YOU BUY YOUR SOURCE LAST MAKE SURE IT'S GOOD! |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 132 Registered: Jul-04 | Mauimusicman: ONe of your statements puzzles me - you suggest that, if I upgrade to great speakers (I happen to lust after a pair of B & W 705s) that they will sound WORSE (if I keep my current CD player) I just don't understand how that can be? Not challenging you - but asking because, on the surface, that doesn't make sense to me. (but then few things do! GRIN) Larry R. |
|
Unregistered guest | One more example.....this taken from www.audiogon.com THE hi-end audio site. And I quote "I recently helped a colleague upgrade her system. I put the new integrated amp and speakers in place, a Creek A50iR and Soliloquy 5.0's, but decided to plug in the mid-priced Sony 5-disc changer she already had since we knew it was working and I wanted to introduce the variables one at a time if possible. She put in a CD and music came out, but the sound was so bad that I was scared I'd really screwed something up or that the new gear we'd spent a lot of time picking had turned out to be a horrible mismatch. I nervously shut things down, checked all the connections and tried again. Same thing, thin, bright and extremely irritating. So, I nervously unpacked the Philips 963 player that was to serve for both CD and DVD playback, plugged it in and put in the same CD. The difference was remarkable, with the Philips, her system sounded just as I'd hoped and she was absolutely thrilled with the sound. Still, we left the changer in place because she entertains a lot and reasoned the fidelity really wouldn't matter to a room full of people at a party." How many of you here would have changed the CDP and NOT blamed the poor sound on speakers, amp et all? But then again, if you believe Gatorman, i'm dense. Therefore, i'll no longer reply to this forum. I don't understand people. All I tried to do was help.....save someone time, money and frustration, but all I get for that is rediculed. You still have J.Vigne.....hope ya all don't tick him off so he leaves too. He's one here that knows what he's talking about. Sadly, JVigne is outnumbered. Aloha all. |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 369 Registered: Dec-03 | Maui, Sorry to hear your decision, I have always found your posts to be informative and backed up with truth, logic, and facts. You are a very knowledgeable guy and I am again sorry to see you go. Everyone is different, not really right or wrong. Just a different learning curve I quess. Some have to learn the long, slow, expensive way. Cheers! |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_bNew york Usa Post Number: 370 Registered: Dec-03 | ps I put together the above system for the example-but I'm sure Mr. Vigne would have done just fine also (LOL!). |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | I'm sorry I have to agree with gatorman. many have said you need a good source but for some reason maui keeps putting it out there like many would choose a bad source to get good speakers. has anyone actually read his posts compared to others? even in his last statement he makes it sound like nobody would think the crap sony player would degrade the sound, when I bet everyone would. the problem with him is he thinks we are all stupid and would still chose a bad source. instead of giving us a little credit to pick a good one. It's like he is the only one that can tell bad equipment! It's one thing to tell us to make sure we get a good source. but it's another to assume we can't. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | My it's getting rather warm in here! Somewhat heated some might say. Larry - OK, this is for real, no fooling around. You wrote: "ONe of your statements puzzles me - you suggest that, if I upgrade to great speakers (I happen to lust after a pair of B & W 705s) that they will sound WORSE (if I keep my current CD player) I just don't understand how that can be? Not challenging you - but asking because, on the surface, that doesn't make sense to me. (but then few things do! GRIN) Larry R." Here's my take on this subject. When people pick speakers, at any stage of the game, they are most often hearing the frequency balance of the speaker system as a first impression. This is understandable since, as I have said, a speaker is a transducer [one form of energy converted into another form of energy] and will have the most obvious changes in frequency response of any component in your system other than another transducer in your system (which would be a phono cartridge if you use a turntable). As you go from speaker to speaker comparing and listening there are likely to be no two speakers which sound completely identical to one another in terms of frequency balance. Certainly as you move between companies it is unlikely speakers will be interchangeable in frequency balance. So your first impression of a speaker is often the changes you hear in the amount of bass, mid and treble. Quite often a speaker that has a pronounced midrange will strike you as very "clear". A speaker that emphasizes the bass will appeal to some and not to others. But whatever the speaker does as far as frequency balance, that is what strikes you first about a speaker. If you stop there with the idea that you have found the balance of sound you want in your system you have made one step towards getting to your goal of a well matched system. I would say that is similar to choosing a car because you like the looks and color. And if you are choosing between several decent cars or speakers there is nothing particularly wrong with that method. The next step in picking speakers is normally the lack of distortion in a better (read more expensive) speaker. Your Polks are a pretty good little speaker for their price range, you certainly could have done worse. They have a fairly flat response as far as frequency is concerned and they don't outright offend like so many speakers in their price range. Their sins are sins of omission, it is what they leave out that makes them less than the greatest speaker ever built. Most speakers in the same price range have errors of comission, they are adding distortions that are not in the original source or they are rearranging the information in some way to emphasize this over that. When faced with the choice always go with the speaker that gets the majority of the information correct and sluffs off what it can't do that well. Often that amounts to a speaker that doesn't play as loud, dynamic peaks are compressed or hardened or it doesn't decend in to the nether world of bass response in terms of frequency. Those are the type of problems that may not show themselves that often, if at all, for some listeners. If you try to achieve realistic listening levels with opera and classical music with your speakers they will not do that well. Complex passages will be congested. Instrumental lines will not be separate but instead will slop together into an indistiguishable noise. After listening for awhile you will feel worn out by the distortion product that is generated by the system. Step up to a B&W and now you have a woofer that costs more than the entire Polk RTi6 including shipping and dealer profit. Now you have better body work and better paint. You are comparing a Ford Focus to a Jaguar. What hopefully comes along with that price tag is a better built system that has much lower distortion than the Polks. It is more or less inevitable that a better driver (better materials; i.e. better cones; better surrounds; better, more rigid baskets and frames, better, larger and longer voice coils, etc.) will have lower distortion at all volume levels. That is what you are paying for. And, hopefully what you are getting is a speaker system that is more faithful to the information it is fed. More than likely the shop which demonstrated the B&W's didn't use an inexpensive source or amplification chain to show off their speakers. So in the shop they sounded pretty good, you could take in a disc you are familiar with and you probably came away thinking you heard small details that you were unaware of on your Polks. The music was more relaxed and, therefore, more like what you are used to in live music. Certainly the speakers had something to do with this as they were more faithful to the signal coming into them. They picked up nuances and details that you percieved as more revealing of the music itself. So you buy the B&W's and hook them up to your sytem in place of the Polks. What do you think you will hear, Larry? Yes, more bass and more extension to the treble. Those are areas that the Polks just stayed away from because it takes more money to do those areas well. Good, deep bass is the most expensive part of any system. Now, if that is what you wanted to change in your system you have succeeded and you can stop there if you wish. Many people do because they are not familiar with live music and their main concern is enough bass or is it "clear". Anyone who has become familiar with live music knows those two items, on face value, are not the key to what makes live music more interesting than sitting at home listening to your system. Is the bass as good as you want it to be? Is the speaker still sounding like it has less distortion or are you hearing the failings of what is in front of your speakers? You now have a speaker that is more revealing of the signal it is fed. Are your other components going to let you hear the wonderful sound you heard in the showroom? The showroom where they used equipment that would normally be associated with a pair of B&W 705's. The signal that is coming from your CD/phono must have the solidity of bass, the transparency of mid range and the sweetness of the highs just as you heard in the shop. If you truly believe you can't hear a difference between components, which is a position held by some on this forum, then you may be satisfied with your purchase of speakers. You've got deeper bass and less distortion from your speakers. You can go on with your life. If, on the other hand, you believe there is a reason to spend more money on components you might be very unhappy. Where the Polks just didn't have enough bass extension and heft to matter when you played "The Firebird", now your B&W's do have the bass extension. They can make the kettle drum sound like a BIG drum. But only if your source and amplifier can also make a kettle drum sound big. If the power supply of your amp is not able to supply the voltage and current, if the output transistors in your amplifier have higher IM distortion or if a multitude of things go wrong in your system that the dealer made certain were covered in theirs, your new speakers will show you just what is happening in your system. Warts and all. Now you are deciding which car is best for you based on how it rides and handles, how the ergonomics feel and how all the little things that make for a pleasurable or even exciting ride come together. Where the Polks just didn't have the resolving power to show the weaknesses of your system, the better B&W's can do just that. Because they are better at what they are supposed to do. They show you exactly what is being fed to them. This tends to spotlight the problems ahead of the speakers. I have nothing against your CD player, but you have pretty well identified it as a weak link in your system. If you buy a speaker that is more accurate, why would you not think a more accurate speaker will be more effective at showing you what you have in front of it? If the CD player is thin and congested then you will have added a speaker that is capable of showing you the deficiencies in your CD player. As I suggested before, if you have a camera lens that is cracked or has a color abberation buying a better camera will not change the qaulity of your pictures in that regard. It will, because it is capable of better resolution, point out the problems of the lens which has stayed the same. And if you finally change out the lens you will have improved the situation. But consider how many photos you will have wasted because you still have a cracked lens. Consider how enjoyable those photos will be. If anything you will notice the crack even more. The same can be said of a better speaker with a lesser system in front of it. You will notice the differences but will it be better? Chances are you will notice the problems of the "lens" even more. Does that make sense? |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 140 Registered: Jul-04 | Jan - my, I wish I'd had some teachers like you when I was slogging my way through college! Yes, sir, your points are clearly made and your reasoning is sound. (oops, a pun there? hmmm. . ) As I think about this, the CD player is an obvious weak link - but the Polks are, also. You will nod your head "yes" when I tell you that the Polks sound very good at low levels, but when the orchestral or opera levels rise, the speakers get congested and distortion increases. I'm pretty sure that the audio "crud" doesn't come from the Onkyo: I've used their products before, and find them rather good, within their price range. I intend to copy out your posting, for future reference, as I try to balance out a system that is both fraught with error and hampered by lack of funding. I already read of new Samsung and Denon DVD/CD/SACD players that reviewers praise highly. We'll see what comes out in the next couple of months, so "stay tuned." Simply put, Jan: thank you for taking time and a LOT of patience to set me right and answer my questions. Respectfully, Larry R. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Consider yourself the recipient of a silver bullet. |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 141 Registered: Jul-04 | Jan: Jest wunnering - is that silver bullet a gift, or one fired into my despairing brain! Note: double GRIN here! Larry R. |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 144 Registered: Jul-04 | J. Vigne et al Good? Morning, all: After a mostly-sleepless night, I re-read your comments on new CD players, speakers, etc. Reads even better the second go-round, Jan! Thanks - but now a question/comment. I've noted that, in my many various listening experiences, my Polk speakers always sound better (explanation coming) with FM broadcasts than with CD playback. Better - meaning warmer, fuller, more spacious sound. With CD playback I HAVE to boost bass 2 db and reduce treble 2 or sometimes even 4 db. With FM, I play in "flat" position. May I assume, sir, that this is an indication of your correctness in stating that my CD player is perhaps the main culprit here? I'm feeling rather deflated at the moment re the Polk speakers. Knowing that I had both limited funds and limited support from my wife in what I could/should spend - and after rather extensive reading and listening - the Polks "seemed" a good fit. They are, indeed, beautifully finished, which makes my wife a happy camper. (I can hear the laughter, guyz!) But a fine Cherry finish does not good sound make!! OK? Yep - tongue-in-sore-cheek here. But now I request an answer from you as to my above-listed comments on FM-CD sound comparison. OH, I know full well that FM is compressed and rolled off on the top end, but there's the feeling of more natural sound there than there is with the CD player. Especially with those horrible older Deutsche Gramophone discs!!! Thanks in advance - larry R. |
|
New member Username: Guesswho42Around here Post Number: 1 Registered: Aug-04 | I have to agree with mauimusicman. Kegger, gatorman, Mr. Johnson, I just don't see how you can't concentrate on the source first. Like mauiman said, it all starts there. I know you all agree you must have a good source but I think you are crazy if you don't start with it. Kegger you don't sound like you know much about this. How long have you been into this hobby? Maybe you should spend more time on research. |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | John Jacob: Just curious what is the reason to start with the source? If wherever you start that you get a good source. If you end up getting a good source no matter where you start from! no one has explained why it matters that you start with it. can someone please explain why? that makes sense. and no assuming that the builder of the system will not get a good source. NO MATTER WHEN THEY BUY IT! AS LONG AS THEY GET A GOOD SOURCE! |
|
Bronze Member Username: CorneliusPost Number: 17 Registered: Jun-04 | Although buying speakers is more fun, source is paramount. |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | I am sorry about the yelling at the end of my last post. sorry John Jacob it's just that the last few posts have assumed you would not get a good source if you bought it last. |
|
New member Username: Guesswho42Around here Post Number: 2 Registered: Aug-04 | I do not appreciate getting yelled at in Capital letters Mr. Johnson. I didn't yell at you. Please keep it civil. To answer your question calmly, this is my reasoning. The source is where the signal starts. To use the old saying Garbage in, Garbage out. Now I know what you are probably thinking. If you choose the source first you are limiting your choices on speakers in the end. So what. If you start with the speakers, you are limiting your choices for sources at the beginning. Obviously a particular component will not work with any other piece of your system but no matter where you start you will find components that do fit together. So why limit your choices where the signal starts. Why not buy the best receiver and limit your choices on speakers that you know will work with the best receiver. They are bound to be good ones. Just think a little bit. Obviously you start with the source just like cornelius said. Don't turn in to your name Mr. Johnson. You're starting to sound like kegger. |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 150 Registered: Jul-04 | I think everybody should just go out, purchase what they want, when they want it, and then let the chips fall. If they (as I did) make a mistake, well, it is always repairable with replacement of one sort or another. As no two people hear the "exact" same things, this so-called "hobby" becomes a war of words too easily and a thing of simple beauty to seldom. I bought a JVC CD player. Ouch. It "read" well in reviews, and plays "turrable" in real life. Will replace it this fall. I bought some Polk RTi6 speakers - reviews great, but for "my" kind of music: opera and classical, well they load up and sound grainy. WHEN or IF I get the money, I'll replace them with the B & Ws I want. OK - source upgrade - speaker upgrade - I know I need both. The JVC comes first, because I do believe that putting bad anything into good anything ain' gonna cut it. Actually, I find this all tiring for me. I secretly want to buy a remote with one, big, red button on it. Press it to start some beautiful music, press it again to go G-nite. G R I N Simple-minded me! Respectfully, Larry R. |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | John Jacob I said I was sorry for yelling. and I'm sorry, I'm in the same camp as kegger I would rather limit myself of sources than limit myself of speakers. and statements like this don't sound to civil."Just think a little bit. Obviously you start with the source just like cornelius said. Don't turn in to your name Mr. Johnson" I said I was sorry before you posted. It just sounds like we disagree where to have less choice. I prefer to have more speaker choices you prefer to have more choices of source. I don't think one is right and one is wrong It's just what you want. |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | Also no I do not want to start another holy war like maui and kegger have. That made both of them leave! I believe they both have valid points and vast knowledge. But got to far under each others skin to have a rational discussion. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Larry, if you were coming into my store as a client I would give this response to your question above. No doubt the Polks sound warmer, fuller and more spacious on FM than with your CD player. As I said, I have nothing against you current player and I have been in the position where a $79 expenditure would have meant music instead of groceries that week. As a grad student I worked for $25 a month and there are times in the past where I would have welcomed any amount of secured income. So we all do the best we can with our alotted funds. But a $79 CD player is exactly what it is. There was a question sent to Klick and Klack of NPR fame about why the automatic windows on a Kia kept breaking. Their as delicate as possible answer was something to the effect of, "How do you think they can make a car that sells for as little as the Kia? They aren't using expensive parts." Unfortunately, Larry, that is your CD player. Fortunately you say it does well with DVD playback so all is not lost. The FM signal is, as you have pointed out, bandwidth limited (50 to 15k Hz) so it never will challenge your Polks in terms of frequency response. As I said the Polks can do fairly good within their limits and FM is within their limits. The CD, on the other hand, will have response that extends into the region where the Polks are showing their pedigree also. Or, more likely, the pedigree of the CD player. Just as early CD playback went through many iterations of this is how to get good CD sound and then this was the key and then another solution ... One factor that was addressed early was the specification for CD itself. 0 to 20kHz. And that meant 20kHz, not 20.0001 kHz. The filters in CD's are notorious for adding a hardness and congestion that is exactly what you are describing from your JVC. My guess would be that the majority of your $79 went to cosmetics and features, not sound. Even if the retailer sold it at cost the usual mark up for electronics is averaged to be the cost of materials times 5. So all total the cost of what it took to build your player is ... $15.80. We'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say you player has $20 worth of raw materials inside. And it has to do video to boot. So you can see what you own is a motor for a window in a Kia. At $79 it was more than likely meant to be paired with a TV with built in speakers in a dorm room. So your Polks have really outclassed this little guy. They are only doing what you asked them to do. FM is also dynamically limited (65 to 75 dB depending on variables) so once again they are not going to challenge your Polks. Spaciousness is a difficult thing to guess at since there could be some phasiness in your signal that will add to that impression. Whatever is happening there, I would say, is really just an indication of the quality of what the FM station is using for their CD playback. It's probably not a $79 JVC. Their source is more than likely rather good and that is one reason I would say you find it more listenable. Just as a piece of information, I use the Polk RT25's as my main speakers in the video system. The 25's are a few years older and a step less expensive than your 6's. Since my main system is down for a while as the remodel of the house progresses, I have used the Polks as a main music speaker. They are driven by a Sony SACD (not very expensive), a Philips CD player for regular CD's (not very expensive), a NAD processor/preamp and a HK Citation power amp. A 10" sub contributes just the lowest octave as the X-over to the sub is set at 40Hz. Though not close to my Mac tubes in quality the combination is quite acceptable to me for what I am using it for. So, while the RTi6's are not Matthew Polk's gift to the audio world, I don't think the speakers are going to disappoint you in the long run. You have mentioned your friend the Dr. and his system. I know you don't want to poke around his system but, if it's possible, I would take your Polks over to his system to find out how good they can be hooked up to better gear, or if you still think they are the problem. Unless he has a large room I think you will hear a different sound than your system produces now. Give me some information on how your system is set up as far as speaker placement and possible options and maybe there's something we can do to help without spending any money. |
|
Bronze Member Username: KnightshadeTaunton, Somerset England Post Number: 28 Registered: May-04 | This original post asked 'Should I upgrade speakers or receiver?' If you are starting out fresh (With a pocket full of money) start from the bottom and work up. It's like building a house. Start with the foundations and work up. Get good foundations (Source) and everything else will probably be OK. If you've already bought amps, receivers, etc. Then (if you've done your homework and not just hoping it'll sound ok) you'll be well on the way to a nice system. You may already have heard a CD player that you like (you know it goes well with the other components) and are just waiting till you can afford it. Fantastic! I hope you all get years of enjoyment out of it. If you are starting a system from the ground up or upgrading the whole thing you should get the source first and build on that. As everyone knows, not all components work well together. When building my system I could've made big mistakes if I'd gone and bought the amplification stage and then decided to get a CD which I was told is great. Big risk to run when you've just spent a large portion of the budget! So I sat down and listened to loads of different amps, then lastly speakers. What I have now is a system which will remain unchanged for several years. So the other issue seems to be 'what constitutes a good source?' Strictly speaking DVD and CD (I thought until recently) should be kept separate. I still think this unless you have a lot of money to spend. The LINN UNIDISK £6500 breaks my hard line approach to this. The attention to the Audio Signal and transport are superb. But, if you're looking for a great audio system on a restricted budget you should steer away from the DVD/CD combination for the reasons that mauimusicman as already given. Cheaper brand or mass market companies tend to spend more time on the video signal while the audio signal suffers. The DAC stage generally isn't up to much either. Whatever you own amp and speaker wise you will improve the sound by improving the source. Whatever speakers you have will sound better by doing this. If you are on a budget and can only afford to do one thing. This is the one to do. To those of you who say 'Who cares which way you do it as long as you get there in the end?' I ask you 'Do you really want to wait x amount of time when you could spend your money wisely and reap the benefit right away?' Not many people can go out and buy a dream system all at once. Most are on a budget. Enjoy. |
|
New member Username: Guesswho42Around here Post Number: 3 Registered: Aug-04 | I respect your right to state your opinion Mr. Johnson. In response to your previous post, I believe that my comments were very civil. I didn't say anything mean. Think back to when you were in school and your teacher asked you to think, was that uncivil of the teacher? No, of course it wasn't. Don't take things so offensivly. It was simply constructive criticism. I'll try to be nicer next time. And as for Kegger and Maui, I believe Kegger was the first to leave. This could very well be because he realized that Maui was right after all, or maybe he just does not have the knowledge to back up his points anymore and simply refuses to admit he is wrong. I think it is that he refuses to admit he is wrong. Judging from the amount of posts he has and the content in those, he seems less like someone who is knowledgable in speakers and more like some computer technician who thinks he is always right. You should be careful not to start sounding like that. No body likes a know-it-all. There is a good way to do something and a better way to do it. I simply saying that Maui and my way's are the better ways. I would consider this a civil and rational discussion and hope that it doesn't cause you get scared or upset and give up like kegger did. These discussions can always be helpful if the other side will listen. Let me know why you think your way is the way it should be done. |
|
New member Username: ShankPittsburgh, PA Post Number: 1 Registered: Aug-04 | I have little to no experience so take anything I say with a grain of salt: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but i've always thought that one generaly keeps speakers longer than the electronics. It seems like every year a new surround codec or format (DTS, DD, 6.1, 7.1, Pro-Logic, Pro-Logic II, IIx, etc) comes out. Also, its seems like every few years a new media format comes out (CD, MP3's, SACD, DVD-A, and whatever's next). So, in my limited personal experience, it seems you generally keep speakers around alot longer (especially if you get the ones you really want) and the electronic equipment comes and goes. But I suppose other ppl may have different opinions, especially if they are into high-end 2-channel audio and not into HT at all. Just as a simple antedote: I remeber my dad having the same set of massive pioneer speakers ever since i could remember, but they finally gave out a few years back and had to replace them. So, i'm thinking he had those speakers for 20+ years. But in my childhood, i remember him always buying a new reciever or tape deck or turn table or new cd changer (anybody remember the cd-changers that used the cartridges? I think some car cd changers still use those). We always had some old/broken tape decks, receivers, and turntables under our bathroom counter (very fun stuff to have lying around for those long summer days at home when your a teenager). Maybe my dad just didn't know how to build a system as maui et al. are suggesting. |
|
Counter Arrogance Committee Unregistered guest | I think John Jacob Jingleshimselfen a little too much. What sheer arrogance he displays - to quote: No body likes a know-it-all. There is a good way to do something and a better way to do it. I simply saying that Maui and my way's are the better ways and These discussions can always be helpful if the other side will listen. This dick can't even understand irony in what he types. And as far as Kegger goes - he knows and understands more about speakers and audio than many on this forum put together. He may not always be right. No one is - only a fool would think so! So why would Kegger waste his time with fools. Whether they are right or wrong is beside the point. How one communicates with others is the cornerstone to earning respect. If Mr Jingles and Mauiman would put their views across as "in my opinion" or "in the opinion of myself and others" instead of "I am right and you are wrong" others might be more inclined to partake in discussions with them. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1050 Registered: Dec-03 | well as far as kegger leaving i read most of his posts and maui's. kegger suggested a way to do it and maui kept twisting his words into something that could benefit him. That's how i took it. also i have followed many a post kegger has been on and for me he usually does not have a problem with someones oppinion unless they tell him he is flat out wrong. and if i remember right he builds speakers. That's fine you believe maui is right i believe kegger is right. ok I think that if you get the speakers you really want you can keep them for a long time. not to quote anyone but shank pretty much said my philosophy.speaker tech does not change as often as the electronics. so i will try to find the stuff that is good for a good price knowing that for me to stay on the cutting edge that i will have to change in a few years. so by spending the little extra to get the speakers i wanted then i can be happy with them and not feel the need to upgrade. but again i try to find the bargain electronics so i still get good stuff behind my speakers for a reasonable price but not to much because i will probably change them when new tech comes out. so to me this way makes more sense and should give you better speakers than if you had done it the other way.so right now a good mid priced sacd/dvd-a player would be my source because that is where the industry is right now. then match the reciever to the speakers i like. |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | hey i just posted and my pc froze and it posted as if i was kegger. |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | hey i just posted and my pc froze and it posted as if i was kegger. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1051 Registered: Dec-03 | well since i am a registered member of this board i get emails from this link. i was just trying to post also and my system froze to wher i had to reboot. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1052 Registered: Dec-03 | well since i am a registered member of this board i get emails from this link. i was just trying to post also and my system froze to where i had to reboot. |
|
New member Username: Guesswho42Around here Post Number: 4 Registered: Aug-04 | Excuse me CAC, but allow me to quote myself : "These discussions can always be helpful if the other side will listen. Let me know why you think your way is the way it should be done." Does this not sound like an attempt to listen to the opinion's of others? And as for you, do you expect to earn respect with your respelling of my name. Let's keep this a discussion about speakers. I would like to here more from kegger or Mr. Johnson or even both. Maybe I can persuade them my way or even vice versa. I'm sorry if I don't use the word "opinion", but perhaps people are more persuaded when that word isn't used. If I say, "that's just my opinion" then the reader who is stuck in between is left with more doubts because the other is saying that he is not sure if he is right. Maybe I'm wrong about this but that is my opinion |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1053 Registered: Dec-03 | well just to say jacob i do take affense to your. "And as for Kegger and Maui, I believe Kegger was the first to leave. This could very well be because he realized that Maui was right after all, or maybe he just does not have the knowledge to back up his points anymore and simply refuses to admit he is wrong. I think it is that he refuses to admit he is wrong. Judging from the amount of posts he has and the content in those, he seems less like someone who is knowledgable in speakers and more like some computer technician who thinks he is always right. You should be careful not to start sounding like that. No body likes a know-it-all" when i have said as many times as i can. everyone is entitled to their oppinion as long as they state it's their oppinion and not fact. mr johnson i'm not sure what happened there we must have tried to post at the exact same time. this board has been really strange lately. anyway's the last couple posters have my views down pretty good. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1054 Registered: Dec-03 | thank you. Counter Arrogance Committee. that is the reason why i left! |
|
New member Username: Guesswho42Around here Post Number: 5 Registered: Aug-04 | That's some crazy mix up there kegger and Mr. Johnson. Oh well I suppose I'm done too. Hey Kegger, "pmck" guess who? Here's Johnny. |
|
New member Username: Guesswho42Around here Post Number: 6 Registered: Aug-04 | Some crazy mix up there Kegger and Mr. Johnson. Oh well I guess I'm done. Hey Kegger "pmck" , guess who |
|
MR. johnson Unregistered guest | Kegger glad to see you back on the thread! Sorry it had to happen like that. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1055 Registered: Dec-03 | what is going on with this thread/board? mixing up posters and now not even showing on the main screen this thread? I had to get hear from my email. well mr. johnson i was not planning on coming back hear but a few posters have started a slander campaign and felt the need to chime in. i have been following the thread from my email as every post that i have ever posted on i get an email from any new posts so i have seen the rants and ravings. at least if jan vigne dissagrees with your oppinion he does not knock you down and gives very detailed and sensable descriptions to understand why he believes a certain way. those i can respect and admire! |
|
New member Username: Guesswho42Around here Post Number: 7 Registered: Aug-04 | Just wanted to let Mr. Johnson and shank know that they do both bring up very good points. Speaker technology really doesn't tend to change that much over the years while the source technology does. That being said I will indeed concede that it is definatley cheaper in the long run to start with good speakers and work your way back. I suppose you will always find a good source for the set of speakers you have even if it isn't the best source, which I believe is what you've been saying all along. As for the best way to initially build a good system I guess we will just have different opinions. I actually have friends who do things opposite of the way I do things and although we differ in opinion their systems still sound great. After all everything is subjective. One person may here something differently then others. Anyway, just thought I cool things off a bit between us. Mr. Johnson, you do sound like you know what you are talking about, and I didn't agree with the harshness of maui's comments. If I came off that way I do apologize. Kegger, I appreciate your response as well. Thank you for your input. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1056 Registered: Dec-03 | this thing hasn't even sent out an email update since shank posted at 5:15 that's 13 posts since then. this board is getting really weird. but i'm certainly not going to complain when we use it for free and when people are tolerant that we can have some very good discussions. take care all and keep jammin! |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 152 Registered: Jul-04 | Belated response to J. Vigne (whew! Youze guyz get going here! Trying to keep up. Anyway, Jan - some points. Yes, I've taken the li'l Polks over to my friend's house, disconnected the Martin Logans, and put them online. The room is very large - about 20 by 32, I think - with tile floors and a 15-foot ceiling. Stuffed furniture, but it's still quite "live." The Polks sound good with the Marantz 8400 and Sunfire receiver - but there's still something "lacking" in their overall sound. A bit "shallow," I guess I'd phrase it? Back home - my setup is in a room with 14-foot ceiling (we like 'em high down here in Swampville!) Living room, carpeted, open into hall and kitchen - roughly 15 by 16. Gear along the "long" wall. Speakers about five feet out each side of the receiver, and roughly 3 feet out from the wall - maybe a tad less. Tried them closer, and didn't make much difference - plus, the stereo cabinet (low, not high) blocked their line of sound. Now, they're about even with the cabinet front. I've tried them farther apart - closer - more "toed in" and more flat-out from the wall. No measurable difference - and the so-called "sound stage" is pretty good where they are. They are on 14-inch wooden stands - with no APPARENT vibration problems. The Polks are quite solid - that I like! Tonight, I was listening/watching DVD "Master and Commander" in 5.1 and my, how great it sounded! But perhaps even that DVD would sound light-years better on an upgrade player? Probably so. The picture from the JVC is very good. So - here we are, in an open room - carpeted, with Danish-type furniture, teak with leather. No "overstuffed" stuff, so the room is on the bright side - but without echo, thanks to the carpet. I've worked with the tone controls (Oh, please let me!) and as it stands now the CDs sound much better with plus-2 db bass and minus-2 or 4 db treble. No midrange control. I'm not sure that anything can be done without some change-outs here - though you might have some idea that escapes me (not difficult!) Thanx in advance. Larry R. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1057 Registered: Dec-03 | well John Jacob Jinglehimerschmidt we may have gotten off to an extremely rocky start. but anyone who is to go from the extreme attitude i saw displayed earlier to the one i now see. i humbly except all appologies and welcome you to the ecoustics forum. the earlier attacks on myself are still stinging a little. but if you are appologizing, i will try not to hold any grudges. |
|
Counter Arrogance Committee Unregistered guest | Kegger No problem. Your last post shows your character to the "T" and it is one of the reasons why, even if I'm not here in "text", I am in spirit and watching out for my friends. Cheers Amigo! |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1067 Registered: Dec-03 | gotcha MR. I try to let bygons be bygons when someone sincerely admits they have done a wrong. good to know your out there mate! |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | Larry, let's do this via e-mail. With what has happened on the forum I don't want to bother anyone else here. The forum won't let me send a message to you since I am an unregistered guest. I don't want to give my email address here but, if you want, Kegger or John A. can give it to you as I have communicated with them recently. It is a bit of a hassle but maybe we can get you better sound, though I do believe you are correct that the CD portion of your system is the main problem. Give either one a holler and they can get you in touch with me. |
|
J. Vigne Unregistered guest | C.A.C. - Good going, mate. |
|
Silver Member Username: WryterNaples, FL US Post Number: 155 Registered: Jul-04 | Heck, J. V. - I don't care if the rest of the gang know my e-mail - I trust them. It is: wryte4u@comcast.net. And good posting! Respectfully, Larry R. |
|
Matty C Unregistered guest | Dudes, this is too confusing. Poor Jason. Asks a simple question and starts a geek fight. Jason, go to a whole bunch of hi-fi places and speak to them personally about yr needs. Everyone seems to have very technical answers but take it 'all' in and go shopping. Salesmen can help if you shop around. You'll weed out the knobs and the genuine helpers when speaking face to face....the old way!! |
|
Bronze Member Username: FletcherPost Number: 24 Registered: May-04 | i actually read through the entire thread. Lots of people with plenty good arguments, but I guess it went out of topic halfway. for most people, including me, high end audio is infeasible. We rather settle for something good and value for money. Also, many people listen to CDs with the DVD player. While it's very true that in high end audio (as emphasized by maui) source first is defintely the way to go, for average users, that rule is not exactly written in stone. but take a look at the original post first. The poster did not say dvd or speakers, he said receiver vs speakers to upgrade. For all u know, he might simply want his system for movies and no music. In that case, buying a better DVD player assumes very much that his current player is not decent at all. The truth is, he might just want to upgrade his receiver. most home theater music listeners use a receiver instead of pre/pro and power amp. Furthermore, we are talking about $1-2k range of speakers and $100-400 DVD/cd players. The receiver, room acoustics, and budget speakers limit the fidelity of the cd player in the first place. Hence, a good DVD player for audio will probably be indistinguisable from a $200-400 budget CD player, GIVEN THE OTHER BUDGET EQUIPMENT available. Sure, if you have a dedicated listening room, great amplification, sound treatments, etc, go for the better CD player. However, most of us don't. And a good DVD player like Denon, marantz, Pioneer, Samsung etc will probably sound close to a budget NAD, Rotel, etc. So, if one already has a good enough DVD player (say Arcam or Cambridge Audio), what's wrong with upgrading the speakers? It's true that the person will hear the most difference. Conclusion is therefore: evaluate the rest of your equipment, sound room, source. Most good cd or DVD players are good enough, if not better than some budget speakers and receivers can handle. That is to say, the high end performance of the source will be limited by other variables. However, if you are really aiming for true hi-fi, with audiophile speakers and tube amps, then go for that expensve CD player first, like the others have said. |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1178 Registered: Dec-03 | very well said Fletcher Sherman that was basically what I was trying to say here. "my belief is if you get the speakers you want, the upgrade path is longer than a reciever or prepro or dvd player with the way the industry changes. you should be able to keep your speakers longer. if your talking 2 channel it "can" be diferent. your amp,preamp,trasnsport may last you quite some time before you feel the need to upgrade. so if you spend a little more on those you may be able to keep them longer.but then your probably talking about a different league of system and your speakers will more than likely be fairly expensive also. then you have tube audio equipment those pieces have quite a change on your system vurses solid state. some enjoy the difference and some do not. but if you go tube products you have to match them also as you know. if you have an 8watt amp you batter get some very efficient speakers. but also if you have speakers that are maybe a little bright and have extra bottom end plus are pretty efficent you could get some older tube gear that rolls off the highs and lows plus doesn't put out much power.thus the speakers could come first then you get your electronics." but you did a much better job! and yes I agree we derailed on the subject. but it was pretty hard not to respond to the questions. later bro! |
|
Silver Member Username: GoldenarrowPost Number: 129 Registered: Jun-04 | I think Jason gave up, he hasn't replied in over two weeks. Jason, if you are still there, here are two interesting web sites to get some terminology under your belt for Home Theater: http://timefordvd.com/tutorial/index.shtml http://www.surroundassociates.com/fqmain.html The second one is especially good. My own 2cents, I disagree with everyone! You need to balance the budget and look for bang-for-the-buck quality while still getting the best long-term sound/sight, all at the same time (its almost impossible). My own example may suffice - looked for upgrading an existing low-end surround system. As I looked/listened to my system, I had to prioritize due to severe budget constraints. I was not interested in High Def TV yet, too expensive and I like music more than video, check. I did not like the sound coming out of my speakers - but was it the speakers or something else??? I listened more carefully and found a slight buzzing noise when driving the amps even moderately hard. Was that the amps or the CD player? It happened on both the DVD player and old CD player. Must be the amps - check. But, as I was listening for the buzz, I noticed differences in the quality of CD playback and not satisfied with the sound of CD, so I wanted to add in a universal DVD/SACD/DVD-A/CD player - check. Also, had ruled out LP's and turntable due to lack of funds and space and convenience - check. OK, first get rid of the buzz. Researched a number of receivers, Denon, Pioneer, NAD, Marantz. Ended up with the NAD even though there was controversy over quality control - I was already familiar with great NAD sound quality and that is what I wanted to solve. I was not interested in ALL the latest bells and whistles, just enough to satisfy the video/audio options needed. Very happy with sound. Done. Not much money left but good low end universal players were good enough to start with, since I did not even own any high-rez audio discs yet! Ended up with the Pioneer 563A after tons of research. Did not listen to a single machine until I did my research first. I am very happy with the sound and I found ways to get around its bass management problems (partly through people on this forum). Done. Got curious about cables. Tore apart the Radio Shack cable, JUNK! Did more research on cables but had no money left. Was blessed to find a closeout on one of the brands of cables I was already interested in at a local discount store. Very happy with subtle improvements. Done. Now, I am collecting high-rez audio, loving every minute of sifting for excellent recordings, except for one thing - the speakers!!! So, I am saving money for speakers and looking to replace at least the front three maybe next year, I want really good ones, like B&W 704's or Dynaudio 62's. Still not so interested in video until I can get a 36" high def TV for $500 or less! And I did all this without writing anything down on paper - except for a cable diagram that came later. You may need to actually write down your priorities to keep it all straight in your head. I started with what I heard first and then moved back to the beginning of the chain, before the electronics - the discs themselves. I expect to get speakers that will last 20 years. Electronics dependent on fast-changing formats, I will continue to spend cheaply on since, like Intel-Microsoft, they WILL get better over time as long as computer technology improves. Speakers will also improve but it seems that materials science takes longer to incorporate improvements than the computer industry does. So I did it all WRONG according to everyone's advice, I just "followed my ears"! Hope that helps.  |
|
Silver Member Username: GoldenarrowPost Number: 130 Registered: Jun-04 | BTW, I hope you all knew I was kidding when I said I did everything "WRONG" or I disagree with everyone, just my weird sense of humor. I am glad there are lots of interested points-of-view! Many opinions on this forum have contributed to help me synthesize my own. It would be a shame if people took things too personally! Ciao |
|
Bronze Member Username: DanmanPost Number: 33 Registered: Apr-04 | What is it with this NAD quality control thing............I have never heard of any big problems and my dealer has sold them for 20 years and is a long time friend.........he would of told me if that was a proven fact. People seem to be in love with DENON and I am not a fan of Japanese Audio. Some of there receivers still have a Loudness button! |
|
New member Username: Underd0gDenver, CO USA Post Number: 6 Registered: Jul-04 | Just thought I would give an update on my status. I didn't feel I could add anymore to the thread until I had gone out and auditioned some speakers and receivers. We went an audio store this weekend because it was a Paradigm dealer. He brought us to a room and demoed the Paradigm Monitor series while alternating between a YamahaRXV1400 and its NAD counterpart. I thought the Yamaha sounded crisper or a little more detailed. This was the only thing I noticed because they are both great receivers. So settling on a hypothetical speaker combination, we chose: Paradigm Monitor Series bookshelf: Monitor 3s or 5s center: not sure on the model # but the mid level Subwoofer: he said with the monitor 3s or 5s we would need a 12" woofer (which I thought was alot but maybe true?) so he recommended the PDR12. Surround: 2 Cinema ADP. Receiver RXV14000 he said better than NAD for Movies (which will be our setup 75% movies, 25% music) the total came with 10% off to be a little under $2000 Now that we had a speaker setup I asked why should I get the RXV1400 instead of the RXV740 or 640? (Me thinking less expensive receiver could get better speakers) He said with the 740 or the 640 you get less power. So if your speakers require that oomph to pump out the details in a certain explosion or something then with a higher-end receiver it can do it. And he said that Paradigms are always compared to more expensive speakers. So since I have heard good things about Paradigm on this site and liked their sound . . . we may get his recommended setup. And the RXV1400 is a great receiver . . . so we may do this as well. I had originally thought to spend $1000 -- HA! Now it is looking like $1100 on speakers alone . . . I have found the RXV1400 online for cheaper than the audio store price of $720 . . . but I can't find an online retailer of Paradigm . . . is ebay the best place? This was our first good audition session. But it was only with Paradigm, NAD and Yamaha. There is another place we will hit before we decide for sure . .. more to come . . . |
|
Gold Member Username: KeggerMICHIGAN Post Number: 1384 Registered: Dec-03 | i think you did some pretty good stuff there and the $1000 was a little tight. but the two new yamaha recievers the 1400 and 2400 are the only yamahas i would consider right now. so i think your in the ballpark. the yamaha and paradigm should work nice for you. klipsch is an excelent speaker for movies also but you would want to pair them with a little warmer reciever like a marantz,pioneer elite or h/k to tone them down a tad. |
|
Anonymous | the new yammy 1500/2500/3500 are comin out, so the 1400 might drop substantially just wait, go out there, liste and most of all, have fun doin it... |
|
Jimvm Unregistered guest | ". . . but I can't find an online retailer of Paradigm . . . is ebay the best place?" Paradigm is one of those manufacturers who do not sell their products through on-line dealers; they sell only through authorized "B&M" dealers. Paradigm's website has a dealer locator where you might be able to find another dealer in your area. You may also find used Paradigm speakers on e-bay or audiogon.com., but to the best of my knowledge, Paradigm's warranties are not transferable, so they will not be covered by the manufacturer. In my experience, a 10% discount is common among Paradigm dealers. If you are purchasing all of the equipment you listed from the same dealer, you might be able to negotiate for some additional off or at least might be able to get the dealer to throw in the cables for free. You're wise to go out and audition other stuff. Yamaha and Paradigm make great products, but so do alot of others. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics