I am starting this to it's own new thread as I feel the world should know how RAM treated my transaction so other may be be warned!!!
Several years ago, I waited three years for Kyle of Reference Audio Mods to complete the personally hand selected components for my "World Class, West Coast Showroom System". $28,000 later I have one of the MOST BEAUTIFUL BOAT ANCHOR SYSTEMS he ever made. I traveled over 35 times taking 3 1/2 hours in each road trip to his parent's house to check progress and observed him working at his mother's kitchen table, only to find that half of our appointments were not kept as he hadn't made it home from the night before, that's what we began and how he treated my business!!
Here is a list of unresolved issues from day one: 1. Custom Marantz 8260 universal Multi-channel CD/DVD transport W/Cocobola Chassis that was reduced to and from the 1st day didn't play anything more than a few select Cd's in redbook 2 ch., within the first year stopped playing altogether. Marantz refused to service the dreaded TOC error as Klyle's work negated the warrentee which he also refused to honor. Instead he handed me a transport from another Marantz 8260 telling me I could fix it myself!!!
2. Silver Rock TVC preamp in a Custom Cocobola Chassis that despite my repeated requests STILL only has ONE input. Too difficult for you Kyle? I only paid excess of $5000 for this little GEM!
3. Custom made Carver ZR-1600 D Class Amp that he smoked right in front of my eyes and dispute a world wide power advertisement campaign between he and his last Carver client he quickly discontinued as unreliable but refused to take back. Oh yes, he matched this 600 watt pro audio amp with his 98db efficient 60 watt $10,600 bent wood horn speakers that blew the tweeters in the first 2 months of use. A short in the way he wired up the output RCA's caused the problem with the AMP and the speaker failure in one swift act! To his credit was repaired yet I still couldn't stand the high frequency hiss that remained and could be heard over the music, I never was able to use and I replaced. Later I found two HUGE Oil In Paper capacitors (a $300 charge for these) that were NOT even hooked up & super glued inside, his excuse was that he tried to cure the lack luster bass response (which didn't work out and said he left in place for me to try again later). Nice eh?? This piece O' Crap cost me $4,500!!! Oh, did I mention the 30 LB. $1500 custom transformer? Later I learned that this amp was sold for $1000 and returned from another dissatisfied customer who didn't like the sound either and threatened to sue. Thanks for the memories!! !!
4. Kyle delivered his custom $5,500 power filter system that amounted to a series of coils, capacitors and a huge transformer that sat loosely on two pieces of 2x6 boards he found behind his father's garage. His promises to install in a covered hard wood box for my protection left unfinished and proved to be a fire hazard and with open wiring had to be removed so my dogs didn't electrocute themselves. Kyle are these products UL approved???
5. AS a 30 yr veteran jeweler I watched Kyle work with limited tools, a cheap Weller solder iron and his fathers Fluke Multimeter. What no scope or any other testing gear? I observed and heard his excuse for absolutely the worst soldering techniques where he feels that globs of solder, like super glue was excessively used as he had past problems in shipping returns as his work was such a mess. Real "CRAPS MAN SHIP" here folks, I personally bought him a MetCal solder station which did help but his sloppy workmanship remains a genuine problem. I can't trust him to fix and can't sell for parts.
His response to all of these issues was "Jim if you want MORE sound, you'll have to pay for it"??
At the time Kyle came highly recommended and I gave him a few thousand dollars per month to work with. I pleaded him to use a much higher ended Marantz player and a completely different AMP choice. But, he guaranteed his work as the end result could be obtained with "less expensive" components and his magic (is this what is refereed to as SNAKE OIL?) his extremely poor choices COST me BIG $$$$. There was a great deal of inside press from another RAM Carver modded customer who spewed misconceptions all over the web as being the next great coming as a "World Class Amp". Press that didn't go unrewarded by Kyle, I might add. Carver gifted this person another AMP for Kyle to mod, both free of charge. After Kyle smoked my AMP he quickly retired further design/development as he claimed this AMP to be "unreliable" and offered to start over with his NEWEST AMP provided I was willing to pay, but..no refund for Jim. A real self defeating debacle that I have been way to quiet about for way too long.
No, I didn't have piles of cash around and took me years to finally pay off all my credit cards from these two beautiful boat anchors. It wasn't until I withheld payments that I realized that he wasn't going to make good on this sale. There is still an outstanding balance of $1400.00.
This project started and elevated as many of these do as I wanted a high end CD player and finally a complete Audio Consulting/RAM system. Pride of ownership was also elevated as I was promised this was to be a " RAM West Coast Show System" provided I was willing to entertain his clients in my home. I desired the best system I could possible buy and I foolishly gave him the latitude to do develop one for me. What a fool will do at these moments. As my long term interest as an IT person was to have a reference system to compare and develop computer audio, we discussed partnership of audio designs. At the time I was intrigued/enamored with his own wood chassis, a VERY high ended Marantz shown at the RMAF show and that player won many shootouts. Kyle's father being a lutherie and had made the woodworking all possible. The design was one of my choosing, the horrific CD/AMP component choices were Kyles and Kyles alone. That became the biggest the problem as he proceeded as he does with many to choose products he desires to develop mods for and gives the first guy a little discount...no discounts for Jim. To my dismay he unloaded a great deal of expensive Audio Consulting products that he used/demoed personally. The AMP was a complete disaster as it was a HUGE mismatch, had lack luster bass and a high pitched hiss that was never corrected. In short, I was sold on the Audio Consulting design and philosophy of materials and their effect on sound. But, I was delivered an unfinished and incomplete components and left holding the bag for close to $28000.00.
So the mods and component choice was all Kyles along with the implementation he left unfinished and defective. The wood choice and design was all mine and his father created them for his son's needs. He was a very kind and devoted father. Kyle made some very poor and VERY, VERY expensive choices that remain useable today. He refuses to fix, I don't trust him and I can't sell them for parts.
I feel the world should be warned and aware of what kind of businessman he truly is....
Kyle, I would call you if I thought you could take responsibility for the four items I listed earlier or refrain from giving this same old runaround I am getting here and for years now. You told me years ago that the Marantz needed a new transport and here you are telling us that you can fix everything for me with one little laser.
No Sir, the amp, Marantz were your choices and neither work properly and were not delivered working to my approval.
It's my money, I reserve the right to satisfaction. You made me wait for two years, made me wait hours outside your parents house for you to come to home (work) and keep appointments with me. This is called abuse.
The Carver did not make the grade and you know it, Serge of Audio Consulting confirmed. After all you claimed it was unreliable and refused to take it back. Shouldn't you refund or replace?
The marantz had known issues and not worth the money. A universal player that only play a few cd's, wow thanks a lot!
you left my house with open wiring on the floor? That's against the law! Of coarse you needed to follow up on your promises to contain these hot electrical coils, transformers so I can use them safely. Where are your professional ethics?
I'm the one who paid you thousands of dollars for each and every piece you delivered on me, I suggest that you make your job right by me.
Kyle, I didn't give up on you when you were going through your personal problems and supported you financially and morally through your desperate times. I call on you to do the right thing here.
You look really bad and it's only getting worse., I paid you an awful lot of money.
You know your integrity and future sales are at stake here.
Wow.......28 Grand? Do you know what kind of system you could have right now? How could you let it go on for that long? How could you not know why simply looking at the work that 28K invested is just insane.
Ya know what they say about going about an unsuccessful endeavor the same way expecting different results... lol
"AS a 30 yr veteran jeweler I watched Kyle work with limited tools, a cheap Weller solder iron and his fathers Fluke Multimeter. What no scope or any other testing gear? I observed and heard his excuse for absolutely the worst soldering techniques where he feels that globs of solder, like super glue was excessively used as he had past problems in shipping returns as his work was such a mess. Real "CRAPS MAN SHIP" here folks, I personally bought him a MetCal solder station which did help but his sloppy workmanship remains a genuine problem. I can't trust him to fix and can't sell for parts.
His response to all of these issues was "Jim if you want MORE sound, you'll have to pay for it"??
At the time Kyle came highly recommended and I gave him a few thousand dollars per month to work with ... "
As a 30 year veteran of knowing how something should be done in order to be done well, I'd say you are a fool. Did you really think a new soldering station would solve the problem if the guy couldn't solder in the first place? You gave someone a few thousand dollars a month when you were getting nothing of value in return? I have a feeling Judge Judy wouldn't have kind words for you, sir.
You've provided a warning to the forum. I suggest you now take your complaints to a courtroom. No one here had any intentions of using your few thousand dollar a month savant. Let us know what day your case will air on VHF TV channels. It should be entertaining. More entertaining than is your reasoning as you've presented it here. I would rely on a diffferent "Ya know what they say"; a fool and his money are soon parted. You, sir, have been a fool.
Sir, I paid dearly for my mistakes. But that is not my mission by posting here. I already feel foolish enough by trusting this business.
My mission is to warn others about this business' ethics and hopefully help them to make an educated decision before buying into a load of crap like I did. Clearly, if Kyle had returned to deal with the open issues as he promised on delivery, I would not be here. I looking for accountability here! Thank you!
Art, Nick and Jan are being a little tough on the poor guy. Let's put it in perspective.
He paid $28,000 over time for I'm not sure what? Is it a CD/DVD transport that's the problem? The Marantz is $895 and it's a SACD player so I'm not sure how it works as a CD/DVD transport and player and the guy doesn't even list such a mod on his website. I just bought a Cary CDP, fairly high end, for under $2000. Funny about those Cary guys, they make fairly high quality stuff and give you a warranty and everything.
He complains about a pre-amp that apparently has no specs and it appears to be a UK unit that can be bought here for about $2560.
The Carver ZR 1600 is $1249 MSRP and it isn't even in the same class with the Wyred 4 Sound ST-500 or 1000 amps or the PSB class D amps; each of which can be fairly well upgraded for under a $1000.
So, best I can tell, he's $4704 into equipment before the guy starts modding it, not including the "$5,500 power filter system", which apparently didn't exist when he ordered it. That means he spent about $18,000 or so on "mods" on equipment that he apparently never listened to first to determine whether they would play nice together.
I absolutely agree that he got taken to the cleaners. First, he could have started several years ago posting on here and asking questions about gear - with a $28,000 budget he could have built an incredible system, including speakers, wires, interconnects and all kinds of things we haven't even priced yet. Or, he could give his money to a guy he met at a show albeit a guy with his very own room and no name who talks a great game.
Hey, those guys at McIntosh, AR, Cary, Pass, Conrad Johnson, etc. etc. etc. all had to start somewhere, right? Being that I'm a lawyer in my spare time, I think he's got a great case against this guy, except the statute of limitations has likely run on his oral contract since it appears he has absolutely no written contract, terms, written promises, specs or anything that he could rely upon in a suit, other than they are "boat anchors".
And you guys give me crud for reading a couple thousand reviews, talking to all of you and picking your brains until they bleed. . .
And what did you end up with for a system, Dak? Something worth the money I think.
I think he's got a great case against this guy, except the statute of limitations has likely run on his oral contract since it appears he has absolutely no written contract, terms, written promises, specs or anything that he could rely upon in a suit, other than they are "boat anchors".
Just the type of case Judge Judy loves!
"I looking for accountability here!"
I understand you're p*ssed but how are we supposed to provide that here? Are you just cruising the audio forums to write nasty things about Kyle and to let everyone know you "already feel foolish enough by trusting this business"?
You had several months of decision making time. You not only entered into but you remained in a business relationship with "absolutely no written contract, terms, written promises, specs or anything that he could rely upon". Is this how you ran your business? You saw things weren't getting better and yet you thought "personally" buying this guy a soldering station would solve what problem?
Your story is an old one which has been told all too often in audio, cars, homes, investments, etc. But over the decades I've seldom seen any "victim" who didn't make their bank account available with too much ease.
IMO now's not the time to take out your frustrations on the forums.
Dakulis thanks for your insight and over view. You are mostly right, I had to make some very hard decisions to tough it out or try to unravel a very complicated transaction. AS to the money you are spot on again. I roughly paid about $4,500 to $5,000 modded per items, give or take a few hundred. The speakers were $10,500 alone here is the link. http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code= RAM&Category_Code=SPEAKERS
At the time this company was highly rated and I wanted the system and decided to tough it out. I never would have believed he would have walked away from the mess he left behind.
My mission here is to expose this travesty and hopefully help others to make an educated decision before buying into this man's work again. As a lawyer you have a razor sharp wit, thanks I really deserve what you have handed out. AS an fellow audiophile, I would hope for a bit a empathy.
Jan, I am a retired jeweler, now running a small IT Consulting biz. I, having 30 years experience with soldering observed him using solder as if it were glue, the more the better! Ha! In fact, there was a huge bottle of super glue that he tacked down caps and such to the chassis he would be modding. I bought the MetCal soldering station as a gift as it was a much better constant source of heat much better suitable for all day soldering than the cheap Weller hobby craft iron he was using. I, also coached him on the use of minimal solder. After all when a company such as his who believed on the use of silver and removing the plastics off of parts was blobbing solder all over everything. I certainly didn't want my work performed like this. It was the Audio Consulting high end parts and transformers he used that I was after, not Kyle himself. But, he was doing a fairly big job on modding cd/dvd/sacd players and well know in his field. Audio Consulting doesn't take work from the US.
I know I am digging a big hole with you two fellas, I am just tring to be honest and report the facts here.
I was floored to learn that he had no testing equipment, non at all. He sent the hard stuff to ModWright and others to trouble shoot for him. Kyle, confessed he didn't know how to use a scope anyway.
Yes, he preferred to work there in front of the sliding glass...in front of his parents pool for better light conditions. His working conditions were extremely pedestrian.
Jim, any chance of you and other victims filing a class action lawsuit?
I own a Weller soldering iron, but I don't do enough soldering in a month to warrant anything higher up the scale. I would never use it to do what this piece o' work was SUPPOSED to do for you.
Copobolo wood is very nice. A lifelong friend made me a pen from it. It's one nice pen. That would go real nice on audio components.
Dave, this same post appears all over the internet. Had the gentleman invested a quarter the time in research to begin with maybe he would have had a clue.
That's only the start...why did he keep going back to the tune of 28k +. Either he has money to burn or (Ya know what they say about going about an unsuccessful endeavor the same way expecting different results...) he is perhaps a bottle short of a sixer...just sayin'!
"I know I am digging a big hole with you two fellas, I am just tring to be honest and report the facts here"
And you've done that - from your perspective. Time to stop all your rationalizations about why you should feel foolish and move on to something productive. Bye-Bye!
Art, You're comments are uncalled for and inaccurate. First off, I did my homework and at the time Reference Audio Mods was one of the more popular modders available and just an hour an a half drive away. As a jeweler and knowing something about the properties of metal, particularly silver. I made my final decision based on a friends results with this persons work and I liked what I saw regarding Audio Consulting products. Over time and two years we established a business and a personal relationship regarding audio. I am reporting on that betrayal and the condition Reference Audio mods of how left my commissioned reference system of unfinished components with issues and endless excuses given as result of personal relationship problems.
That's not a responsible reaction to a valid business relationship, yet alone someone you know...I actually WANTED this as a reference system. That shouldn't be so difficult to grasp.
As anyone will tell you there is no easier person to defraud than a trusted relationship. Meaning, I held out believing that my friend was basically honest and eventually come through on his promises. I was left holding the bag, so to speak.
Because of the kind advice of others on this forum, I am looking into the warrantee from RAM'S website to peruse legal action.
Jan, My mission is not to cry on your shoulder, but to warn others not to make the same mistake with this vender as I have. To make sure they have an exit strategy in place, in case the vender doesn't complete his work or follow through on promises. In the interim, I have found some sound advice that may just get me some satisfaction. Productive?? I hope so.
Your original post makes my comments quite accurate. You are the best evidence of my correctness.
You have met your mission and warned the world against being as dumb an a s s as you are, you may move on.
I think it is safe to say that very few who visit here are flush enough to learn your lesson.
Look man, I lost a child about 6 weeks ago (about as relevant as your going on about being a fukkin jeweler) and am a bit tired of your petty rants about things that don't matter. Pick up your Lego's and move on.
Let me add, I was taken last year by a friend in the business (audio business, that is). It wasn't for 28K but was for quite a sum for my paltry Social Services Caseworker salary. Took but one incident to grow the f u k up and put on the big boy undies. That relationship was over then and there. And I sure the f u k did not come here or on any other forum and cry like a baby about it. I lost, too fukkin bad. I learned. Quit whining and get over it.
Art, Please put the bottle down and go to bed, you're making a fool of yourself. Really, no one is asking your permission of what to or may be discussed here. Good night!
Was a long day at work yesterday and I was short on patience. I have seen this complaint on a couple of other forums and it has, simply put, not set well with me. I apologize for the lack of civility, no excuses. Minus the rant I still hold to my opinion of the matter. However I could have been more diplomatic. Have a good day.
Thanks Art, I understand your point of view and find that I can agree. Especially in today's world where this kind of flagrant spending would be viewed as obscene and even petty. However, doesn't invalidate my losses. I truly wish that money could be used do some good for those who need so much. Instead of lining the pockets of this modder. I, myself live far more humble than you may think.
This project was not unlike any home remodel project that grew vastly over of budget. Where the contractor made many suggestions that at the time made sense, however, ARE always subject to final approval upon completion. In this case, the contractor arrived on location made grandiose promises of "World Class" improvements that just didn't work out and proved to be inappropriate to the whole of the project. In this case a player that had known issues and an AMP that had obvious weaknesses. The point here is, these issues can not really simply be repaired and Kyle needs to take ownership of that and make this right. I, as the customer reserved the right to final approval and couldn't see myself walking away and starting over with a new contractor. Especially, since I grew to know Kyle personally and believed he would work through his personal issues and finish the job. Even if it meant exchanging the inferior products with appropriate ones.
I lost that bet, it doesn't make ME the BAD person here. Everyone in all the forums I have post in agree for what I invested, Reference Audio Mods owes it to me to return and correct his work.
Because of the time element, I am pursuing the legal issues with Google Consumer Fraud as an online vender. Interesting enough is that he offers NO Guarantees for anything on his website!!??? Why is that, Kyle??. The obvious electrical wires he left HOT and exposed does have legal merit and that may be my best start, locally.
"Has he responded to you either privately or on open forum such as this?"
Yes, he made an offer yesterday to fix the player provided that I send or take it to him. This goes waaaay beyond that measure. We are talking about a complete commissioned system of components. He claims that the amp sounded great in his fathers 8'x12' with 18" woofers! No doubt, however, in my room, the room I intended to do my listening it had weak bass response was shrill and anemic. He suggests that I either sell the $10,500 speakers he sold me or place then 8' to 10' from the wall to load the bass. From the very first day the Marantz SA-8260 universal player didn't play any other source material but a few Cd's. Both of these units went back and forth several times, hence, the 35 trips to mommies house. Point being, he installed the system and I was never happy with the over all sound and performance. I reserve final approval on location, on all points or the deal is off. His endless excuses to return has led me here.
Now he claims "that is the sound of the amp", I can't fix that, the player I can fix. My over all statement here is first off, "why didn't you" and "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".
Art- Sorry for your loss, it really puts things into perspective. I do not know why you apologized to Diamond, what you said was spot on.
28K on "High End Transformers". lol Do you know how cheap parts are to build a high end amp? Companies like McIntosh and Bryston built multi-thousand dollar amps with only hundreds of dollars invested in parts. What you pay for is the engineering, the expertise and someone to build it, and still you do not have to pay 28K. Wow. 28K, makes your wonder about the guys whining up and down your television sets about Obama care and such when these guys are blowing money like that. That money taxed could have saved a life to some poor family that can't afford health care in the US. Keep whining people.lol. Like Art said, put the big boy undies on pal.
"For anyone interested you can catch Kyle's act, doing his best tap dance routine over at this forum!"
Where in the world did you get the idea any of us care about you feeling foolish due to your own lack of awareness? Are we all that ineffective at writing, and you that insensitive to others, that you really think we give a ... "care" about your self-imposed waste of money? Most of us have a far better idea how we would want to see $28k invested along with how better you could have used the time and effort you've expended to reap some small amount of revenge.
What aren't you catching on to this time?! The idea is for you to go away and cry somewhere else and to someone else. Why don't you do that now?
I feel like an idiot, also. Did not mean to ignore your loss. I lost my brother two years ago to a sudden aneurism so I know what you're going through. Prayers to you and the family.
My daughter was 30, her Mother and I were with her when she passed. There just aren't words to describe how that feels.
Dave, you are a great guy and I am absolutely sure that you pretty near always mean the best. You and the of the rest of us Ecoustics Home Audio survivors are the best.
I'd like to say that I'm sorry for absconding with this thread but frankly I'm not.
Don't feel bad about it at all. I'm glad you were there. By the time I got down to my brother, he was in a coma. I doubt that he knew I was there. My brother and sister also came and we were with him when he passed. It makes it a little better at the time but I think about him all the time, as I'm sure you do your daughter. 30 is way to young, though. Hang in there and hold on to your wife, it will help you both.
