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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4462 Registered: May-05 | Great news... My daughter started crawling 2 weeks ago. She's also starting to pull herself up onto things like the couch. Bad news... Visions of her hurting herself trying to pull herself up using my speaker stands. I've looked at a ton of stands, from cheap to costing more than my speakers did. I'm not comfortable with anything I've seen. I've contemplated putting a 2-3 foot square block of heavy wood under the stands, drilling holes in them, and bolting them to where the spikes thread into. I'd also drill small holes into the bottom of the speakers and screw them down to the stand. I'm just not convinced that'll be enough. I also though about building a small shelf for each speaker, but they sound awful that close to a wall. All I'd hear is boomy bass drowning out vocals. I pushed them about 3 inches away from the back wall to see if it was an option, and it's definitely not. I've looked into wall mountable speakers, and the only ones hifi ones that I'd consider are the Linn Majik 109 and PMC DB1i. I don't like either speaker more than my Yaras, and both are a good bit more money. It's just not worth selling my Yaras (or keeping them stored either) for them, because I know once it's safe to bring out the Yaras, I'll regret letting them go. They're discontinued, so it's not like I can pick up another pair. I figure wall mounted speakers are the only rational decision I'm left with. No chance in her getting to them. Our home is too small to barracade the speakers, and I don't have a dedicated room available. This brings me to the Audio Engine speakers, and the P4 specifically. They're a passive and wall mountable $250 speaker that claims to be pretty durable. They're available in white, which will help with decor issues. Wall mounting them won't result in optimal placement for them, as the wall they'll have to go on is a bit odd, but it won't be a total loss. At $250, I figure they're cheap enough to keep around for a year or three and not be heart broken if they're given away when I'm done. I could keep them around for a second system as well. I've heard great things about Audio Engine in general, and read a few glowing reviews (there's a real shocker) about the P4, but don't know of anyone with any real experience with the P4 or other Audio Engines. Anyone ever hear Audio Engine speakers? Thoughts? Also, any other suggestions in about this range? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4463 Registered: May-05 | Oh yeah... The P4 is passive. I'd still use the Bryston B60, Rega DAC, and ATV as they're in a soon to be child-proofed cabinet. I need some speakers in the room out of selfishness, but also because my wife and I play a lot of music for our little one. I could pack everything up and get a boombox, but what fun would that be? And would I really be saving a lot of money by doing that anyway? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4464 Registered: May-05 | Trying to edit but can't... http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-P4 |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1396 Registered: Jul-07 | Haven't heard them Stu, but like you have read good things. A few random thoughts. Have you considered putting your speakers in a harness and suspending them from the ceiling ? Or, buying one of those wall mounted arms that swing out several feet ? How far out in the room are your Yaras now ? The Magnapan wallmount speakers (MMGW or MC1) not your cup of tea ? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16432 Registered: May-04 | . Would you be interested in a diy speaker? |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1684 Registered: Oct-10 | The Mirage Omnisat OS(3) is also a wall mountable speaker selling @$250 ea. IMO, they are quite amazing for the price. I would recommend comparing these and other comparably priced wall mountables to the P4. Also, where you have your speakers now may not be the best place for a different speaker. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4465 Registered: May-05 | Thanks guys... Chris - I rent, so I can make any modifications that I'm not sure I can easily fix. The back of the speakers are about 2.5 feet from the back wall. Hadn't thought about the MMG W. Gotta research them to see if they're a possibility from a size vs wall size standpoint. Jazzy - Don't know why I didn't think of the Mirages. I'll check them out at Magnolia. Jan - Depends on the level of DIY. I can assemble a pre-made kit; no sawing due to a lack of tools, no soldering due to a lack of skill. Hot anything that fits that criteria? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 562 Registered: Mar-04 | NHT absolute zero's are available in white. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16433 Registered: May-04 | . Let me think. Do you have any specific requirements for the systems? How deep do they need to go? How loud with what amp? The Bryston? What are the 2-3 most important qualities you need other than stability against a child? . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3535 Registered: Jun-07 | Hey Stu. I could be way off here with what you want to accomplish but I had the same issue when I was using the NAIM/Paradigm Studio 10 combo with Ava running over to the stands and trying to push them over. I simply filled the stands with Shot Lead which made the stands roughly 40 plus pounds. Of course this only helps until your daughter is tall enough to simply reach the speakers.lol. Maybe...shot lead the Stands, and tack strip the speakers to the stands? SOLVED!! lol Anyways, I ended up selling the Paradigms and buying the Totem Sttafs so now I just have to keep her upstairs. lol. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4466 Registered: May-05 | Jan, I'll use the Bryston B60 (60 wpc @ 8 ohms, 100 @ 4 ohms), which can handle anything realistic as far as impedence goes. I don't need anything that needs to go to ear splitting levels, as the room isn't too big. Something that sounds good at lower volumes and doesn't need to be cranked to open up and perform it's best. I don't have a specific bass response spec in mind, but I'd like to sufficiently hear a bass guitar and drums. Doesn't have to punch me in the stomach or anything like that. I don't want a sub, as placing it will end up being placed where it's most convenient (read safe). I'd be better off with something fuller range than a sub/sat system because the sub won't integrated well. Most important qualities other than my daughter's safety? Musical - If it can't carry a tune, nothing else matters. It's got to groove is the best way to explain that. Nothing dull and lifeless. Clarity - Cheap speakers sound like a jumbled mess, which will lead me to seldomly using the system. I'm not looking for highly detailed and articulate, but a compressed and muddy mess aren't my cup of tea. High and low freq. control - Doesn't have to push the extremes either way; I can live with a sin of ommission far better than something being forced to do something it shouldn't. Soundstage and imaging - I don't want to listen to two speakers. I'm not looking for state of the art, just something that I can live with for the time being that'll have me enjoying the stereo when I have some alone time. I'm not looking for hifi attributes, I just want something that I can enjoy listening to my music through. As far as physical aspects - wall mountable and light enough where I don't need to do more than put an anchor into a stud, and unobtrusive. Being able to paint the cabinet to match the wall would be great. Mrs. Pitt would greatly appreciate that, and I wouldn't mind it either. If it were a house that I owned, I'd probably go the in-wall route for the living room and have my system in an office or similar room where I could keep it safe and set up correctly. Until then, I've got to do this. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4467 Registered: May-05 | Nick, I filled the stands with sand and have the speakers blu tacked. They're pretty heavy, but the whole set-up isn't heavy enough for me to be able to relax. Maybe sturdy enough is a better way to describe it. It just seems top heavy and awkward. Kids have that monkey strength that defies their size. Kathryn constantly amazes us by picking up stuff that's bigger and heavier than she is. I'm sure Ava does the same thing. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16435 Registered: May-04 | . OK, for starters, what's your impression of this; http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planet-10-hifi/184088-frugel-horn-mk3-flat-paks.h tml |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16436 Registered: May-04 | . John Brines offers flats which are typically easy to glue up and screw in drivers; http://brinesacoustics.com/Products.html |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16437 Registered: May-04 | . How about a floorstander with a very broad base and a center of gravity just above floor level? Something like a Martin Logan or there are some Acoustats on Audiogon. You'd like Acoustats IMO. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1315501061&/Acoustat-Model-1+1 A small Magnepan MMG that could be pulled out and placed against the wall when not in use? Or, a floor stander with a very broad base like the Hawthornes; http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1315271385&/Hawthorne-Silver-Iri s--Duet These sit low to the floor. Put a base on them large enough that someone has to stand on the base to touch the speaker. Or, a speaker that's simply too heavy for most children to move? A Theil or a VanDerSteen? http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1314972857&/Thiel-2.3 Something from Mapleshade with their low to the floor stands? http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Modded-Speakers/departments/65/ Or, something similar from John Blue that wouldn't make your stands so top heavy? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/johnblue/jb3.html . |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14591 Registered: Feb-05 | http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMGW ...and a good sub. I owned the Audioengine speakers and didn't think much of them. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4468 Registered: May-05 | Art, What didn't you like about the Audioengines? Which model did you have? You're the first person I've come across that didn't rave about them. Not doubting your ears at all. I'm pretty confident that we look for a lot of the same things in music and I heavily trust your opinion when it comes to that stuff. Jan, Thanks for the links. A lot of great ideas to mull over. I really like the DIY ideas, but I just worry about the stability/safety. If nothing else, I'll mentally archive them and will give them a shot at an appropriate time. I've always wanted to dabble in that. Single drivers with transmission lines definitely have me thinking. Those designs seem like the only thing I'd need that I don't have is a screw cane or two, which are pretty cheap anyway. I'm also going to look into the other stuff. The Mapleshade stuff has me thinking too. I'm thinking I can keep them in a closet (about 5 steps away from the system) and hook them up quickly when needed. Maybe I'll try my speakers on the floor with a phonebook or the like angling the speaker upward to see how/if they'll work. I've thought about very heavy floor standers like the Vandersteens and Thiels you mentioned. I'll have to drop by a dealer's place to see if I'm comfortable enough with their size. I just worry about investing that much money on a speaker that my daughter will eventually be able to push on the nice and shiny drivers and/or tweeters. My current space wouldn't allow Maggies to breathe very well, and my cats would probably fall in love with what they'd consider new scratching posts. I'll see what a few local dealers have as far as big and heavy floor standers go. Just not sure I want to invest the money in a speaker that I may not like more in the long term than what I have now, and that's not taking into account when she'll be a curious toddler. Second hand would be the way to go if I did, but shipping isn't going to be cheap if the seller isn't local and/or the future possible buyer isn't. It's easier to buy and sell monitors on the second hand market IMO. I think a phone call to Magnepan about what's involved with mounting the MMG W is in order. They may fit just right. Stupid question regarding Maggies - I've read some non-box speakers are electrified (I think the old Quad ESL 57s were this way). Is this true of the Maggies? In other words, if my daughter went at them with a fork in her hand, is she going to have problems other than a disappointed father? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4469 Registered: May-05 | Apparently, Totem makes a wall bracket for the Dreamcatcher and Mite. Definitely worth a visit to a Totem dealer to refresh my memory of what those two sound like. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3536 Registered: Jun-07 | Heard the Mites just the other day at Lindens setup just in the front lobby. Components where a Sim Audio integrated sourced by a ProJect turntable and they sounded marvelous Stu. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14592 Registered: Feb-05 | The Audioengines had a bloated hifi kind of sound, reminded of the worst sound B&W does. I had the A5's. Dreamcatchers and Mites are a good idea and no the Maggie's won't electrocute your child. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1400 Registered: Jul-07 | The only gotcha on the MMGW's might be bass extension. A sub might be required depending on your tastes. If you decided you needed one, and could only put one where it was convenient....you still might be ok. Every room is different and location is hugely important in some rooms, and some it seems to matter a lot less.....especially if you are like me and leave it turned down. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16439 Registered: May-04 | . Looking through Audiogon yesterday I came up with lots of potential solutions to your problem. Which way you prefer to head though isn't something I get to decide. I would definitely try the down low approach to speaker placement. Keep in mind you're changing the virtual space the speakers work into (adding another 3dB of reinforcement to the bass) and a repositioning of their location might be in order to get the best out of the floor placement. Typically, you'll find this works best in the near field where you can angle the speakers in towards the sweet spot and greatly diminish side wall and celing reflections. The close to the floor placement minimizes floor reflections by making them so short in delayed time and so close in phase to the original signal when they arrive at your ear that they do not smear the direct energy arriving from the speaker. You sometimes should also try lowering your listening position to make the most of this speaker placement. If for nothing more than S&G's, you should sit down on or close to the floor with the speakers positioned low and listen to the size of the virtual soundstage your speakers can present. This is another "suck it and see" affair. Planar speakers generally fall into two categories, either fully electrostatic or fuly magnetic planar. The "magneplanar" systems (Magnepan is the best known) are nothing more than what we think of as conventional dynamic drivers flattened out to fit into a rectangular frame. The cone of the driver has been flattened and shaped to fit inside a frame with the voice coil unwound and attached to the entire surface of the planar diaphragm. The electrical flow of energy which moves the diaphragm is working against a fixed, magnetized grid which to some degree acts as a protective screen for the large planar diaphragm. They have no energizing voltage running through any circuits and would be completely safe even in the case where you child managed to touch the diaphram of the driver when playing music. Newer and more expensive Magnepans also include a ribbon tweeter which is also extremely safe from the prying hands of children and positioned well away from their curiosities. Electrostats do have an energizing voltage riding on their surface and this can be in the range of several hundred volts depending upon the design. However, the voltages are only present when the speakers are in use and there is no real danger as the diaphragms are once again protected from any inquisitive fingers. The voltages on the screens themself are not the issue and I've never heard of anyone being injured by touching the diaphragms other than by shear stupidity equal to someone sticking their hands inside an open chassis amplifier. Even at that this would require any protective devices provided by the manufacturer to have been removed and even then the person touching the screen would have to provide a pathway across their chest (heart) to do anything more than provide a good reason not to ever touch the screen again. Where potential voltage/amperage exists is in the power supply of the speaker which steps up the amplifier input to the voltages/current needed to move the diaphragm. However, this is about as dangerous as any power amplifier sitting within reach of the children and then only should the covers be removed and the internals exposed to the child's touch. I would say it's safe to say most electostatic speaker manufacturers have no desire to be sued by their clients for exposing dangerous elements to the touch. The large base of elestrostats houses the power supply in most designs and, in the case of the Martin Logans, offers an enclosure size footprint which would make tipping the speaker by anyone other than an audlt lifting from up high an impossibility. A speaker such as the Brines Audio kits might have the latitude to be fitted with some decent sized outriggers which would make it all but impossible to tip from any leverage point other than the top of the speaker cabinet. You would have to give John a call and discuss this with him. This option is probably open to most floor standing speakers and might even be adaptable to most speaker stands. You might want to head down to a cabinet/machine/plastics shop to ask about modifying your existing stands to something with a very wide stance. Possibly a retailer such as Parts Express, Madisound or another diy speaker components seller might have the parts needed to make this a retrofit to most speaker systems. The Frugel horns would be extremely difficult to tip for the same reason, the base is so wide it is nearly impossible to move these speakers other than by grabbing them at a very high location which exceeds their center of gravity. You could always go with a speaker so heavy it is nearly impossible for two grown men to move around. A pair of Klipsch LaScalas would do the trick. 35.5" (90.17cm) x 23.75" (60.33cm) x 24.5" (62.23cm) and 123 lbs should be fairly difficult for your two year old to move. The only thing to worry about here would be; first, they run into the cabinet at full tilt boogie - which wouldn't bother the speaker at all but might leave a nasty mark on your child's forehead - and, second, your child getting her head stuck in the fold of the bass horn; http://www.klipsch.com/lascala-floorstanding-speaker Solve that problem by finding a pair of Belle Klipsch; http://www.klipsch.com/belle-klipschfloorstanding-speaker which is the same speaker as the LaScala dressed up for the ball. (Belle was PWK's wife.) The Thiels and the VanDerSteens are more than heavy enough and wide enough to resist any small child's attempts at tipping. Spike them to the floor and it will be as if they are welded to the supporting structure. And I wouldn't discount the Hawthornes. They can sound quite interesting due to their open baffle design which utilizes several large diaphragm drivers to achieve quite reasonably deep bass response from a speaker that would be virtually impossible for any child to move when outfitted with the appropriate base. I've heard the Hawthornes twice and can say they offer a new perspective on reproduced sound though my tastes were at the time moving more steadily towards John Brine's single driver designs. There's another OB designer who has displayed his systems at the Lone Star Audio Show but, off hand, I can't think of his name. His designs were substantially larger than the Hawthornes but they were the only viable alternative I heard to Brine's single drivers. Offering a sound that was extremely dynamic and engaging with bass extension that didn't seem possible from an OB, they were far more like the LaScala but without all the horn loaded and boxey sounds. Clapton's "Co@ine" was fabulous at even moderate volumes and inside a hotel room sized demonstration space. I'll try to find more info on him if you'd like. Then there's always the idea of you hitting the local audio shows if there are any. There are always things to listen to that get you thinking and plenty of people you could discuss your issue with who just might have more ideas than I have come up with. . |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1401 Registered: Jul-07 | The Hawthornes are interesting indeed. I love my OB Tekton's, but have to admit the Hawthornes are much nicer to look at.....and don't require stands. I wonder how different they'd sound ? The big consideration for OB speaks (other than whether you like the sound or not, of course) is that they really need to be away from the front wall. A minimum of 4 feet. That's a problem for a lot of people if the rooms not a dedicated listening room. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina Post Number: 14360 Registered: Dec-03 | just my two cents, but with a child that young and eager to explore, I think I'd ditch the small speakers and go with floor standing mains. I use KEF Reference and ML ESL mains myself, and they weigh from 75 to 120lbs each so no fear of knocking one over, unless you buy her a small bulldozer for the living room. If this is for your surrounds, I chose to go with di/bi-pole surrounds for THX stuff, and chose the Polk FXi3 and FXi5 speakers, which are wall-mounted, as seen here: http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu47/Glass_Wolf/Audio/20101007_28.jpg Just a thought, anyway.. yeah I wouldn't trust stands either, unless you can both bolt the stands to the floor, and the speakers to the stands. Hmm, could be outstanding theft prevention! I've seen flatscreen wall mounts that lock the TV in place! haha |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16440 Registered: May-04 | . "The big consideration for OB speaks (other than whether you like the sound or not, of course) is that they really need to be away from the front wall." Yes, any dipole, bipole, OB would require some placement considerations that are not typical of a monopole configuration. This would include the vast majority of planar speakers since most versions would have drivers radiating to the front and rear and would be considered some version of those three design concepts. The up side to most designs of this sort - not bipoles - is they operate in a figure of eight dispersion pattern which minimizes any radiation to the sides. The speakers can typically be placed closer to side walls and trade off a bit of floor space away from the front wall for some distance between the two speakers. Whenever I give you one thing ... I've never heard the Tektons, Chris, but going by what I can pull from the internet, I would say the Hawthornes are quite different in their general character. To begin with the Hawthornes are coaxial systems with a very simple, high grade first order crossover. Most full range drivers will tend towards a rising mid to upper range response and typically require some filters to step down that rising response. Therefore, Hawthorne has made a decision which way they prefer to trade one benefit for another. The coax design means the Hawthornes have fairly broad latitude when it comes to toe in. Next, the Hawthornes are fully OB systems which gives them a distinctive balance throughout their range and most particularly in the deep bass. Dipole bass is often considered the most natural sounding but also the most difficult to design due to room friendly baffle dimensions and ultimately to wave cancellations. As with an acoustic suspension design the bass has no group delay which is common to all vented type speakers (with the exception of a very well designed TL) and most common to bass reflex systems. There are no port noises from the OB Hawthornes; no chuffing or honking and nothing that sounds like a bass reflex port. Similar to a bass reflex system though there is no loss of system efficiency since the bass frequencies are pressurizing the air from both sides of the driver's excursion adding as much as 6dB to the lowest bass before roll out. Like a bass reflex, bass rollout is much steeper (faster) than a sealed or infinite baffle system. The Hawthornes use larger drivers than the Tektons and those larger drivers can move lots of air while the motors of the drivers do a good job of not sacrificing apparent speed. These are high sensitivity systems making the most of that first watt. Overall the Hawthornes have what I supppose most people would call a slightly "warm" balance off neutral and immediately call attention to the lack of a box sound. They are not at all what I would call a "bright" or analytic speaker and should do well without much worry to system matching to avoid fatigue. If your system can do "width", "depth" and "air", then the Hawthornes will play off that ability. They play loud yet don't require being played loud. And without the average box resonances they can capture the attack and nuance of a performer's technique exceptionally well. I don't know exactly how that compares to the Tektons. I have heard the Hawthornes in a hotel room space both times. The first year they sounded quite captivating while the second year they were having problems integrating the speakers into a different room. I enjoyed them in both instances but other speakers topped them the second year. The Brines speakers were my personal favorites on both occasions. . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4470 Registered: May-05 | Thanks again for the tips everyone. Much appreciated. There was a show in NYC that I missed by a few weeks. Would have been interesting to talk to a few designers about this stuff and just shoot the breeze about music and stereos in general. Maybe next time. As far as big and heavy speakers go such as Thiels, LaScalas and Vandys, my room just isn't big enough to let stuff like these breathe. I tried the speakers on the floor, with the front propped up with hockey pucks. Sounded pretty good. Definitely somewhat different, but the jury's still out as to whether or not it truly sounded better. Listening to them while on the couch reminded me of the soundstage from a pair of Shahinians I once heard. That idea was short lived. Once Kathryn woke up and was brought downstairs, she darted over to them. Can't say I blame her at all, as they look and sound superb. Contemplating all my ifs, regardless of how much sense other alternatives might make, the only way I truly feel like my daughter will be safe and the setup will be practical from a cost, space, minimized risk of speaker damage, and acceptable sound standpoint is on-wall speakers. My very sensible and practical wife who is very, very tolerant of my hobby agrees. And I have some more leeway than the average person as she thinks it's important to have music playing for our daughter. I also figure a minimally intrusive on-wall speaker that sounds good can stay permanently in a family room wherever we go. If we move from here in the near future and I get a somewhat dedicated room, I can buy an inexpensive second hand integrated amp or stereo receiver to power them. If I buy something like Vandys, this isn't really an option. I'll play with placement, but I think what'll end up happening is they'll be up high enough where my taller than average 2 year old niece can't quite reach them, and I'll angle them downward a few degrees to compensate. I figure putting up her idiot father for an hour or two is the cost of good research. Expensive, but worth it in the long term. Again, thanks for all the tips. I'm definitely going to use the DIY tips in the future when time, space and funds permit. Anyone have any other on-wall speaker suggestions? I think $500 or so. If there's something a hundred or so above that that'll bury the competition, then I can stretch a bit. Second hand may be tough, as they'll be a long term living room speaker and should be pretty much NIB and color match the decor. Gotta give the Mrs. that respect! There's a Totem dealer who's big on custom installation around the corner from my work. Sounds like a great extended lunch break tomorrow. Maybe they'll have the Tribes too? Anyone heard them? A bit more expensive though. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina Post Number: 14364 Registered: Dec-03 | One other option is to go the sat/sub route, such as a set of Energy Encores. Those can all be wall-mounted, save for the subwoofer, and have been highly rated for home cinema use, although they won't be as good as bigger floor standing speakers for music of course.. but they do solve the problem of being a danger to the tyke. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1402 Registered: Jul-07 | http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/magnepan/mmgw_2.html It seems a sub isn't optional, it's a must.,,,,by design. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14593 Registered: Feb-05 | Correct and that's why my recommendation was for the Maggies and a good sub. A REL T5 would work wonderfully. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16441 Registered: May-04 | . Glasswolf, Stu already has a sat/sub system and is trying to get away from that arrangement. I really can't say you'd go wrong with the wall mount planars. I've considered them an option for my system when the flat screen gets moved. At the price they seem to be the epitome of "no brainer" unless you just cannot get a sub to work well in your room. If that's the case, then we just punt and all rush downfield hollering like crazy people. (No offense meant to the crazy people who might read this.) There are a few other things to consider. A satellite speaker mounted on the wall will very likely have uneven frequency balance. Most small speakers are no longer sold as "bookshelf" speakers but as "standmount" systems. This implies the designer has built in accommodations for the typical position of the speaker within the room environment - well away from the walls. A "baffle step filter"; http://sound.westhost.com/bafflestep.htm has very likely been incorporated into the crossover network to smooth the frequency response in the area where the driver/enclosure move from working into half space (supported by the front baffle) to full space (no supporting surface). Placing such a system on a wall will disrupt that balance and result in less then designed in sound. To do a good job of wall mounting a speaker close to a support surface you will need to find what doesn't seem to exist any longer. That would require stepping backwards in time to a product such as the original Boston Acoustics line and there are a few first generation BA speakers on Audiogon at present. The original BA's were designed to be placed flat against a wall and their shallow cabinet depth allowed the system to act much as you would expect a full infinite baffle system to react. Bass and high frequency response is supported while the mids do not become bloated or muddied in an infinite baffle system. I can't really recommend the BA speakers unless you're looking to get out of this ultra cheap - and, geeez, if $299 per pair for the Magnepans isn't cheap enough then we really need to pare some costs here. But for about $100-150 the pair the original BS'a on Audiogon would represent good value speakers from the late 1970's to early 1980's. But those Vifa drivers in the BA's are about as competitive today as would be a '79 Honda/Toyota. While I loved my '75 Civic and would enjoy having her back (she gave her life saving mine), my 1980 BA A200's are sitting in the spare room closet and are unlikely to ever see working duty again even after the mods I performed. Not trying to get you to take them off my hands but, if you're interested in them, Stu, you can have them for the cost of shipping them up to you. Unless you're willing to cut holes in the walls, I don't believe I can come up with a better suggestion than the Magnepans for a wall mount speaker. . |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina Post Number: 14365 Registered: Dec-03 | Ah for some reason I thought he had smaller bookshelf speakers on stands or something, hence the worry about injury.. Yes planars "require" a conventional woofer or subwoofer because, similar to electrostatics, they roll off pretty sharply below 250Hz, which leaves you completely lacking in the bottom 3 octaves. |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 29 Registered: May-10 | I don't have experience with the P4 but I have a pair if A2s connected to an airport express. It makes for a great wireless speaker setup, I can stream music to the speakers from any computer, or my phone. As far as the sound is concerned. I really like it, but they are really my only experience with higher end audio at home. I did listen to the B&W MM-1 as well (I was looking for a small pair of active speakers). I like the AudioEngine sound more, and they fit my application better. I have them sitting on top of my kitchen cabinets pointed slightly downward. It also helped that the A2s were less then half the price. Good value for the money. AudioEngine also has a 30-day audition program, so if you are interested I'd try them out and see how you like them. |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 30 Registered: May-10 | Another speaker you might thoroughly enjoy and mounts very cleanly to a wall and comes in multiple finishes (you can let you wife choose it). http://www.axiomaudio.com/m3-onwall-speakers.html |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4472 Registered: May-05 | Visited a customer installation shop at lunch today. Easily the coolest shop I've been in. They've got some pretty wild custom stuff and hifi stuff. They had the Steinway speakers set up along with just about every hifi brand - Naim, Simaudio, Bryston, Meridian, and on and on. It looked like an audio museum in there. They demo by appointment only, but having been made aware of this by the sign on the door when I got there, I called and they let me in. A bunch of guys looked like they were tearing down a wall, but they were just getting ready to demo some in wall stuff. But anyway... I told the guys my situation, and they all in unison said in-wall. When I told them I rent, they all said on wall. They've tried everything else, and the only way stuff doesn't get damaged and and no one gets hurt is that route. One guy said huge speakers won't get knocked over, but they can be drawn on, matchbox cars can find their way into ports or even through woofers. They went to a home to troubleshoot a speaker that wasn't working, and there was an open jar of apple sauce in the cabinet. Doesn't matter how attentive the parents are. I have no desire to spend a lot of money on something that'll have a good chance of getting damaged. I couldn't hear the Mites or the Tribes, and they didn't have the Dreamcatchers on hand. He'll order me the Dreamcatchers and let me take them home to demo. He'll even let me wall mount them and give me all my money back if I don't want them. He said he'll use them as a demo model if I don't want them. Seem like good people to me. Have you guys seen the new Totem finishes? Their speakers are all now available in what they call the Design series finishes - glossy black, white, blue, and red. Not a piano gloss finish, but a toned down lacqured kinda finish that looks really cool. I've always really liked Totem's sound, so wall mounting a pair of Dreamcatchers should be a done deal. Only way to find out if they'll be worth it on a wall is to try. I've also always liked their fit and finish, so I guess my wife won't have much to complain about visually. Which also reminds me - they gave me a wood color swatch so she can match the finish to the decor. Now I just have to pay for my daughter's Baptism in 2 weeks before I order them up. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina Post Number: 14368 Registered: Dec-03 | you could just sell your kids! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16442 Registered: May-04 | . In this economy, kids aren't bringing very much on the open market. An eighteen year old with a job is the hot ticket. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4473 Registered: May-05 | Where I live, their aren't many jobs left for teens and college students. The jobs that were traditionally done by them are now being done by people who don't have papers, to put it in a nice way. Kitchen help, fast food, landscaping, etc. jobs are being done by people who are willing to work for less than minimum wage. Then again, the mentality now is that they're too good for those jobs anyway. The parents are the ones who are putting that idea in their head or at least they're reinforcing it. A lot has changed since I was a teen, and I'm only 35. I wasn't too good to wash dishes 3 days a week when I was 15. How was I too good if I hadn't done anything to make a name for myself yet? I wasn't too good to work at the car wash either. Those jobs taught me a thing or two about responsibility and why to go to college. Working at a few colleges over the past 11 years, I am still amazed by the mentality of the students who are getting ready to graduate. They think they're going to skip several steps and become a director or supervisor or something or another without working their way up the ladder. Most have never even had a job. I love seeing those guys a year or two after they've graduated and had to 'settle' for something they never thought they'd have to do. I always tell them you've got to pay the cost to become the boss and ask them what made them think they were going to walk into a job and oversee anything or anyone on their first day? That's just the tip of the iceberg with this generation and their parents. Definitely wasn't that way when I was growing up. Maybe where I grew up and where I am now is an exception rather than the rule, but I highly doubt it. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14594 Registered: Feb-05 | Dreamcatchers look like a solid choice to me, Stu. Looking forward to reading about your experience with them. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4475 Registered: May-05 | Thanks, Art. Looking forward to getting them. I've always liked the Totem sound and build quality. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 2458 Registered: Oct-07 | To go back to the original question about AudioEngine. The answer is YES and than some. I heard the A5 at T.H.E. Show up in Newport Beach last month. For about 500$ or less (don't remember $$) and powered to boot, they are the start of a real nice system. Small room? Computer use? Dorm room? name it |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14605 Registered: Feb-05 | Hmm, I owned the A5's and didn't like 'em a bit. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 2460 Registered: Oct-07 | No problem, Art. I hope they found a nice home. Not a primary system speaker, rather a dorm / small room speaker. I'd send 'em to college with a student without hesitation. At the same show where I liked the A5, and, for that matter, the new RSL speaker, I really didn't care for the Focal Grand Utopia.....which at 180kilo dollars, is way out of line. Nothing beats listening for yourself..........Looked for but wasn't able to find/listen to the well regarded Totems. Maybe next year! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14606 Registered: Feb-05 | Now that I would agree to...excellent for a dorm room application. However for someone who owns Audio Physic speakers they simply aren't enough, not even close. |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 31 Registered: May-10 | Comparing the A5s to $2K + speakers is pretty silly. Of course they are not even close. What you get with the A5 for only $350 is an extremely versatile speaker system without the need for a separate 19" wide amplifier taking up precious space. These things make great computer speakers, bedroom speakers to hook up to an iPod, great to pair with music streaming devices like a Sonos or Airport Extreme. The USB, and power ports on the A5 are great for these applications. They also make a really good candidate instead of a sound bar. At the end of the day when you figure the built in amp is probably worth $100-$150 of the price. It is sold separately as the N22 for $200. That leaves these competing on cost against $200 per pair bookshelf speakers. I have a hard time believing you are going to come up with an amp and speakers that sound as good for that cheap. That's just my opinion. An external amp for many applications is just plain messy to boot. These are competing against Bose, B&W and M-Audio computer speakers and do a pretty fine job of it. I've auditioned all 3 of those and the A5s sound a lot better to me, and have better connectivity options making them more versatile. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 2469 Registered: Oct-07 | Dan, I brought the Focal into it since at 180,000$ everybody falls all over themselves in praise. In the double-wide hotel space, I gave 'em 30 seconds and they simply failed to engage me on any level. So I left. In the appropriate space, MAYBE, but for my nickel, the A5 is potentially simply a better value. I think we all agree that for someone starting out who wants a taste of something better.....the A5 is tough to beat outright. |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 32 Registered: May-10 | I agree completely. I'm what you could consider as someone "starting out and gaining a taste for something better." :-) When I came across Audioengine I was ecstatic at the difference in sound quality from what I was use to (Bose, Technics, Pioneer, Sony, Onkyo etc). |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14608 Registered: Feb-05 | "Comparing the A5s to $2K + speakers is pretty silly. Of course they are not even close." It may be if anyone were doing that. Here's the deal, Stu needed a speaker to replace his Audio Physics for a spell so that his child wouldn't get hurt and so that his speakers wouldn't take a tumble. The A5's have a rather bloated sound (like the loudness contour is always on) and the L/R balance can be off with them. Things that one has to live with them for a while to know. The A5's are good enough for their intended application but fall very short as a drop in, short term replacement for someone who has been living with the kind of performance Stu has been. Just my opinion and YMMV. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4477 Registered: May-05 | Thanks again for the responses, guys. And thanks to Jan for the offer on the speakers. Id take you up on it, but my wife needs something visually acceptable. They're going in the living room, so i fully agree. I thought I thanked you before, but I guess my typing didn't keep up with my thoughts. Art is right, as I want to compromise as little as possible on the sound. I'm not expecting anything to sound as good as my Audio Physics, especially at the Audioengine price, but they are going to be my main speakers for at least a year. 3 years or so isn't really a far stretch either. Plus, my wife objected to the white finish which was a very big surprise to me. I figured white would blend in very well, but what do I know about home decor anyway? I watch a lot of HGTV like Art does, but I'm still not a decorator. Here's a new one not mentioned - Focal Chorus 705v. I just found out they're wall mountable. Anyone have any insight on them vs Dreamcatchers? My wife has seen the 705s and liked the way they looked. I briefly heard them, but it's been a while. There's a dealer around the corner, but he's the guy I dispise most in audio - the clown who's told me what to buy and didn't let me hear the Audio Physics when I asked. Then again, maybe I'll waste his time and hear them, then order them from Music Direct lol. What also has me contemplating the Focals is they seem easier to drive than the Dreamcatchers. Whatever I buy will eventually be a 2 channel system in the living room for tv. The Dreamcatchers will make something like an NAD 315BEE work a bit too hard, whereas the Focals should be a better match both electrically and sonically. Anyone have any insight in the 705v vs Dreamcatchers? Wish Frank Abela was still around. He'd probably give a great comparison. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14610 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm certain the C326BEE would have no trouble with the Dreamcatchers. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4478 Registered: May-05 | What do you think about the synergy between them? NAD and Totem weren't the best match when I heard them together an NAD generation or two ago. Haven't heard the 320 series since my 320BEE. I'm sure they've changed a bit since. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14613 Registered: Feb-05 | I haven't heard them together. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4479 Registered: May-05 | I could always get a preowned Arcam or something slong those lines. The A65+ goes for pretty cheap on Audiogon. I liked that with the Arros. I think the Dreamcatcher is more Arro like, and the Mite is more Sttaf like. Maybe im off with that though. Either way, the speakers will eventually be paired up with more affordable than my B60. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4480 Registered: May-05 | I heard the Audioengine A5s yesterday in a shop. I was pretty surpised by them. They're not bad at all. I see what Art was saying as they are a bit B&W-esque in the trumped up regard. I'd really like them or the A2 as a computer speaker or even a dining room background music speaker, but as a main speaker for a year or so, it'll be a long year. I'll even go so far as to say they're the best speakers I've heard at that price. The Audioengines are no Totem Dreamcatcher. That's not a knock on them, just the truth as I see/hear it. The Focals are also out. Very good speakers, just not not Dreamcatchers. They're also a lot bigger than the Dreamcatchers, which doesn't work well in their favor for this application. Also, I heard the Audioengines by themselves and with a Peachtree iDecco. Very good combo for the money. If anyone's looking for an afgordable simple system/second system, the iDecco and P4 should be on your list. Please note I didn't hear the P4, but I'm lead to believe it's very close to the A5. So... Dreamcatchers it'll be in a few weeks. Gotta pay of a Baptism and wait for a reimbursement from a few work expenses. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14614 Registered: Feb-05 | That's pretty much how I viewed it, Stu. Let us know when you get the Dreams... |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1105 Registered: Dec-06 | Congrats, Stu. A bit late now perhaps, but I'm curious if you considered the 805v? I think it's regarded as more exciting than the 705v, which tends to be more laid back. I prefer the look of the 700 series though. The 800 series always looked to me like Focal was trying too hard...kinda tacky. |