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New member Username: Been_a_whilePost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-11 | Hi all I have been out of the game for many years so need some help in getting up to date again I have two nad power amps they are the 2400 monitor series and I have an old yam amp e 800 I want to be able to play my music through my iPhone can I do this with this old amp or do I need a more up to date pre amp.? if this pre amp is not suited can anyone recommend a decent pre amp to use,Thanks . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16414 Registered: Jan-08 | Welcome to eCoustics Simon! You can use your actual system to listen your iPhone, buy a 3.5mm stereo to RCA's and hook it in aux in or tape in! http://store.apple.com/us/product/H2422VC/A?fnode=MTY1NDAzOQ&mco=MTkwNDMzMjM |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1598 Registered: Oct-10 | Simon you should get an iPod/iPhone dock. Most come with adapters to fit different models. Run GOOD audio cables (Rockfish, Audio Quest, etc) from the dock to your pre-amp. No offense Plym, but running a line from the headphone jack to the amp is NOT a good idea. This can damage both the iPhone and the pre-amp. The headphone jack is a power amp output that is expecting to see a much lower impedence than that of a pre-amp input. Headphones usually have an impedence of 16 - 100 ohms. The pre-amp on the other hand may have an input impedence around 47,000 ohms there about and is expecting a line level input like that of a source player, cd, iPod/iPhone dock. |
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New member Username: Been_a_whilePost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-11 | Thanks for the reply so I don't need to get a more up to date pre amp as I would of thought there would be some changes inside to the modern day amps.? |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1602 Registered: Oct-10 | My thought is, if you're satisfied with the pre-amp, keep it. If not, you'll need to shop around for one that will work well with the power amps & speakers you've got. I won't recommend a specific brand or model. I would however, venture to say you'd probably be dissapointed by recent Yamaha products and search along the lines of Bryston, McIntosh & the like. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16357 Registered: May-04 | . " ... so I don't need to get a more up to date pre amp as I would of thought there would be some changes inside to the modern day amps.?" What sort of changes were you expecting? Today's pre amps are generally more transparent to the source than what you would have purchased fifteen years ago. And stepping up and away from mass market lines such as Yamaha will represent a significant change in how the product is designed and built. Those factors will result in improved performance. However, using the iPhone as your primary source is less likely to show the sort of improvements possible in current high end gear as the source is somewhat compromised in absolute quality when compared to a top notch digital source. You don't mention which speakers you are goin to use. And I have no idea what musical qualities are important to you. The way your post reads, you are simply looking to get some use out of some old audio gear you have laying around. Is that right? While you can make an older system work around your iPhone, you might be better off moving to something along the lines of what Audio Advisor has to offer; http://home-audio.audioadvisor.com/search?w=iphone+dock . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16415 Registered: Jan-08 | "No offense Plym, but running a line from the headphone jack to the amp is NOT a good idea. This can damage both the iPhone and the pre-amp. The headphone jack is a power amp output that is expecting to see a much lower impedence than that of a pre-amp input. Headphones usually have an impedence of 16 - 100 ohms. The pre-amp on the other hand may have an input impedence around 47,000 ohms there about and is expecting a line level input like that of a source player, cd, iPod/iPhone dock." Super Are you serious? There is none problem to use a iPhone or any players on a aux or tape input! |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1605 Registered: Oct-10 | Plym, are you serious? The headphone jack is a power amp output Plym! Granted, this is not a very powerful output and therefore unlikely to harm the pre-amp. I however, would not take the chance of connecting the headphone output to the pre-amp input for pro-longed use just in case. As for the iPhone, the headphone output is designed to be used with ear buds or some type of headphones. Connecting it to a load with an impedence in the tens of thousands of ohms is like reving up a car engine to red line with the trans in neutral. In addition, the sound quality will not be as good as it will when the iPhone is in a dock. Remember the signal path Plym; source, pre-amp, power amp, speakers. When iPhone or iPod is docked, the source is the iPhone/iPod's hard drive. The signal passes through the dock to the Yamaha pre-amp, then on to the power amp and speakers. When you connect through the headphone jack, the signal goes; source, pre-amp, power amp, pre-amp, power amp, speakers. See that? You've just added an extra and unnecessary pre-amp and power amp stage. The signal path should be kept as simple as possible. Even if the iPhone and the pre-amp are not harmed, at the very least, the signal will suffer when connecting through the headphone jack. The headphone jack should be used for headphones and passive speakers only. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16358 Registered: May-04 | . There is no risk of damage when running an iPhone headphone output into a pre amp's line input. How else would you run an iPhone into a pre amp? It doesn't have a line level or digital output, does it? Since I'm not familiar with the iPhone I am guessing it requires either a USB connection or you will be required to run from the headphone out. Those are the instructions for the cable to which Plymouth linked so I would take that to be the intent of Apple; run from headphone out to line input on your "stereo". If the op would prefer to use the USB connection and therefore bypass in the internal DAC within the iPhone, several digital players which accept external USB inputs and outboard digital to analog converters can also be found at places such as Audio Advisor; http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=90 If the music were then recorded in a lossless format and played back through an outboard DAC, the iPhone would be an acceptable digital source. Of course, recording in lossless formats would severely limit the amount of music the iPhone could store. I would certainly hestitate to call an iPhone headphone output a "power amp". It is a gain stage and generally not very much of one at that. As a gain stage it expects to see an input impedance as its load several (10 or more) times higher than its own output impedance. The Yamaha's line input impedance is more likely to be around 10k Ohms. The iPhone headhone output probably has such low voltage output that most preamps have internal gain stages with higher amplitude vs input. The problem of mismatched impedances between what the headphone output is designed to work into and what the pre amp actually provides would be somewhat of a problem resulting in poor dynamics and rolled off high frequencies. However, given the compressed and lossy quality of the signal coming from the iPhone it probably wouldn't be a concern for the listener if they didn't already find the iPhone to be an inferior source when plugged into a high quality audio system. . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1606 Registered: Oct-10 | When you dock an iPhone or iPod, the units internal DAC is usually used, unless it's docked into a Peach Tree system or other unit that draws the signal in digital form. I did run the signal from my iPod's headphone jack to my receiver briefly and compared several songs played this way to docking the iPod. I noticed that with the iPod docked, the sound quality was significantly better than going through the headphone jack. In fact going through the dock/usb port is not really so inferior to cd quality especially when the music is from a cd loaded onto iTunes in lossless mode. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1607 Registered: Oct-10 | To say that you would hesitate to call on iPod/iPhone output a power amp is like saying you'd hardly call the single driver in a transistor radio a speaker. True, the output stage is not much of a power amp, but it does prepare the signal for the speakers. So IMO, it's still a power amp of a sort. Just as the driver in the radio does convert the electrical signal back into sound. Therefore, it is a speaker, even if it's not much of one. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16359 Registered: May-04 | . "True, the output stage is not much of a power amp, but it does prepare the signal for the speakers" "Prepare(s) the signal" in what way? It's a gain stage. So is a power amp, actually a typical power amp is several gain stages in parallel. Do this, provide the spec'd output voltage for the iPhone headphone output. Provide the output voltage for, say, a typical stand alone CD or DVD player. If the pre amp can withstand the voltage of the CD player, it can certainly withstand the voltage of the iPhone with no fear of damage to either component. Apple states quite clearly, "This cable attaches to your iPod or iP(hone) (sic), so you can play your tunes on your home stereo or portable speakers. Just connect the 3.5mm, mini-stereo plug to your portable iPod, iPhone or stereo device, then connect the RCA plugs into the RCA jacks of your stereo component or portable speakers"; http://store.apple.com/us/product/H2422VC/A?fnode=MTY1NDAzOQ&mco=MTkwNDMzMjM . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16360 Registered: May-04 | . "To say that you would hesitate to call on iPod/iPhone output a power amp is like saying you'd hardly call the single driver in a transistor radio a speaker ... Just as the driver in the radio does convert the electrical signal back into sound. Therefore, it is a speaker, even if it's not much of one." But I wouldn't say that in the first place. It doesn't require more than a single driver for a speaker to be a speaker any more than two drivers in a cabinet are not a "speaker". The "speaker" in a transistor radio is a "speaker" - or, to be more correct, it is a driver. You're trying to establish false rationalities that do not exist and that are ... well, ... false! I wouldn't call the dial face of a transistor radio a speaker. But I would certainly call the speaker in a radio a speaker. Why wouldn't you? . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1608 Registered: Oct-10 | Simon, should you come back to this thread, my advice is to get a dock for your iPhone if for no other reason, it will sound better than via headphone jack. Jan, you've missed my point again. Therefore, rather than go another round with you, I am going to end this here. I will not be back to this particular thread. So any responses you may have will not be read by me. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3528 Registered: Jun-07 | There is no chance an IPod can harm a pre amp in any way. Its a very very low gain stage that outputs like any typical Aux connection from a PC/Laptop. Typical Blu Ray players or CDP's have higher level voltage outputs than an IPOD/Touch ever dreamed of having. Dont get a Dock. Get a DAC!! Unless the Dock is for simplicity and is wired to a DAC. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16361 Registered: May-04 | . I'd still like to know how it prepares the signal for the speakers. A dry rub or a wet marinade? |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16417 Registered: Jan-08 | Super The important thing is the output voltage which is about 1.2 volts for most of players, the input of most aux and tape in can take between 1.5 to 3 volts, the impedance has nothing to do with the sound power result as long as it is higher than the source! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16418 Registered: Jan-08 | Lower is the impedance from a player then easily it will drive the earphone, higher is the impedance of the input then easily it will drive all kind of source! Same as for the amp output which has lower impedance will drive easily a speaker, higher is the impedance of a speaker then easily the amp will drive the speaker! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16363 Registered: May-04 | . "Same as for the amp output which has lower impedance will drive easily a speaker ... " Nope, a low output impedance only addresses the output section of the amplifier. A common mass market HT receiver will have a stated low output impedance yet a very inadequate power supply. A highly reactive loudspeaker load will cause problems with current delivery and phase/time relationships (due to excessive NFB employed to lower the output impedance) in most mass market HT receivers. The low output impedance spec only addresses issues of Ohm's Law which would state the frequency response of the amplifier will remain relatively stable when working into a highly reactive speaker load. Other problems associated with highly reactive loads persist despite the low output impedance of the amplifier. Inserting a transformer or autoformer coupling between the output devices and the load device will actually ease the amplifier's job while raising the output impedance. " ... higher is the impedance of a speaker then easily the amp will drive the speaker!" Again, not exactly correct! A high load impedance is great only when it is stable across the frequency bandwidth of the load device. Or when the amplifier runs into a mostly resistive load as opposed to a less stable or highly reactive device. Also the amplifier will see a somewhat difficult load when working into an severe electrical phase angle due to either a capacitive or inductive element or both in conjunction. Most of the well known planar speakers represent such a load due to their ribbon tweeters. The rising inductive phase angle of the speaker's high frequency driver will require a fairly stout direct coupled amplifier with the ability to simultaneously deliver both high current and high voltage swings. A speaker load that swings between 8-64 Ohms would still be a relatively difficult load for many amplifiers as the outputs are required to switch being working as current sourced devices and voltage sourced devices. A wandering high impedance load coupled to a highly reactive phase angle will make for some difficult times for most solid state, direct coupled amplifiers as power output falls rapidly into higher load impedances. A buyer should decide whether they prefer a high current amplifier design (Krell) paired with highly reactive loudspeakers (flagship B&W's or Apogees) or a higher output impedance in the amp (transformer coupled tube amplifiers) paired with rather high impedance loads (Lowthers or most any single driver full range system) which remains very stable in both impedance and phase. . . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16422 Registered: Jan-08 | Jan Again your Bla Bla as usual! We discussed on the importance of the power stage of an amplifier then a amplifier with stronger amperage power supply and output stage will do much better but you always arguing, I assume that this is not the only thing to get a better sound but there is a good starting! Do your own testing and back to talk! More powerfull require less feedback and resulting in better control then cleaning sound without coloration! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16364 Registered: May-04 | . Let's see, ... how did you put it, P? Oh, yes ... All I can tell is LOL! I did not expect better from you! Even if I am right you still argue! https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/684194.html#POST1959385 Except, in this case, it is not a matter of "if" I am right, it is when I am right! Prove me wrong, P, instead of your constant jabbering about BLA-BLA-BLA ... Or read this; http://www.symphonysound.com/articles/tubefriendly.html Be careful though, it will teach you things you'll insist are BLA-BLA-BLA. "More powerfull require less feedback ... " Nope, not true. . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16429 Registered: Jan-08 | Poor Jan! Tube is old technology back as new fashion nothing more, it was good in old days but today even the tube is not in use for its quality in transmitting! The very much faster transistors and a very good power supply can easily beat the tubes! You learn from what you read instead of testing it! Good reading Jan! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16365 Registered: May-04 | . "The very much faster transistors and a very good power supply can easily beat the tubes!" Nope, not true. . |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgamePickering, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1213 Registered: Jun-08 | Read it and be informed about Class A (typically tube) vs. Class AB (solid state common). http://bryston.com/BrystonSite05/pdfs/MiscDocuments/Class-A-versus-B.pdf |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16440 Registered: Jan-08 | Nice link full of truth George! I was an ardent supporter of Tube until I modified a Adcom, since I hate the tube for the very good reason in your link>>the heat, price and non reliability! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16371 Registered: May-04 | . George, class A is not "typically tube". For example, viurtually every high quality pre amp or output stage in most "audiophile" digital players operates in pure class A. Tubes and class A have no direct relationship which states a certain output device is "typically" found in one class of operation. Nowhere in the article is it stated that tubes are typical of clas A operation. Where did you get that idea? Bryston doesn't produce tubed components, therefore, even if they had stated anything regarding tubes, I would have taken their advice to be nothing more than their own biased assessment of tubes. As to your white paper on class A vs class AB amplifiers written by a company which produce class AB amplifiers ... you really need to see why certain papers exist, George. . |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1092 Registered: Dec-06 | I've seen many tube amps that are class AB. Lots of 'em out there. I think there may be more of a correlation between an amp being a single ended triode and also class A (or push-pull and class AB). Still, I understand that there are class A push-pull designs. And Sugden makes a single ended output class A amp that is solid state. Not sure how that compares to a SET tube amp other than I can say that every opinion of the amp I've ever read has been enormously positive (at least as far as it's sound). Anyhow, just goes to show there are many ways to skin a cat. I've never owned a tube amp, so I can't offer much of an opinion. It is clear that tubes have some disadvantages, however it's also clear that they have some advantages, perhaps the biggest of which is sound quality. Some folks will take whatever disadvantages tubes have to get that advantage, I'm sure. Of course, we all have different priorities and so for some of us class AB solid state is the way to go. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1363 Registered: Jul-07 | "I was an ardent supporter of Tube until I modified a Adcom, since I hate the tube for the very good reason in your link>>the heat, price and non reliability!" I never understood this stance on tube components. I have 3 pieces of tube gear and have had not one reliability issue with any of them. Perhaps you're referring to the tubes themselves ? But again, no failures. I replace them at the manufacturers recommendation, or before, and have had no problems. I'm sure it happens from time to time, but hardly seems like a major concern. I've seen many, many posts on this forum for non-tube gear failing in any number of ways, but that gets blamed on the brand, not the fact that it's solid state. Why do issues with tube gear get smeared on all tube components instead of the brand ? As to the heat, I suppose it would be more of an issue in warmer climates, but not where I live. And price ? I'd like to see some data of comparable products.....tube and non-tube....that shows that an equivilient tube amp is more expensive. I weighed price as a major factor in each of my purchases, so clearly it wasn't a deal breaker for me. As I said, what you posted is said a lot, but it just hasn't been my experience. And, as Dan said, you didn't mention sound quality in your list.....which seems to be a pretty important quality to consider, eh ? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16375 Registered: May-04 | . George, can you explain the differences between the various classes of operation in audio amplifiers? In other words, do you know the main distinction - the single thing that makes a circuit either class A or not class A - between the operation of a class A power amplifier vs a class AB power amplifier? What reason would you suppose lead a designer to, in your words, "typically" produce a class A power amplifier using tubes when tubes are already larger and heavier than a conventional, direct coupled solid state amplifier of the same wattage output? . |
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New member Username: Been_a_whilePost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-11 | Hi all thanks for the replys,I'm not going to use iPod as main sourse I'm going to get a new cd player and maybe a new pre amp and speakers.The two power amps I am going to use are the NAD thx monitor 2400 so please advise me on a good cd player and pre amp I have around £1000 to spend and while I'm at it are these amps to powerful for small speakers I want loud but clear sound.I have an old Cerwin vega ht10pwr if you think it might be useful please advise.Many thanks Simon. |
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New member Username: Been_a_whilePost Number: 4 Registered: Jul-11 | One more thing I would buy second hand so if any one knows of anything decent please let me know.?? |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16445 Registered: Jan-08 | Direct link: http://bryston.com/BrystonSite05/pdfs/MiscDocuments/Class-A-versus-B.pdf Chris "I replace them at the manufacturers recommendation, or before, and have had no problems." "I like Honda for the reliability" For Honda this is normal to replace a timing belt each 100 000 km but I don't have this ""normal" problem with my Chrysler under 350 000 km! My Adcom run very well since 15 years without any problems, nothing at all, no cash $$$, same sound |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1367 Registered: Jul-07 | "My Adcom run very well since 15 years without any problems, nothing at all, no cash $$$, same sound " Great, but presumably you didn't jump from one seemingly reliable solid state amplifier to "tubes are unreliable" ? If so, that's quite a jump. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16380 Registered: May-04 | . "My Adcom run very well since 15 years without any problems, nothing at all, no cash $$$, same sound " I use tube power amps that are, this year, 50 years old. They run almost 24/7, 365 days a year. My tube pre amp is going on 30 years old with the identical duty cycle. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16381 Registered: May-04 | . "please advise me on a good cd player" Simon, your request is impossible to address. There are numerous "good" CD players to choose from. What you prefer in sonics and what you have available to you will determine which is best for you. Read the archives of the CD section of the forum for our typical recommendations in your price range. "are these amps to powerful for small speakers I want loud but clear sound" You use only a small amount of wattage to play at average levels. The most sensible advice here is to turn down the volume when you hear distortion. You can damage any speaker with any amplifier if you ignore that advice. . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16447 Registered: Jan-08 | "I use tube power amps that are, this year, 50 years old. They run almost 24/7, 365 days a year. My tube pre amp is going on 30 years old with the identical duty cycle. " LOL Without replacing a simple tube or capacitors???? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16391 Registered: May-04 | . No, but replacing tubes is a pull them out and plug them back in affair. That doesn't speak to reliability; they didn't break, they wore out. If I replace a worn out tire or a drive belt on my car, does that make the car unreliable? No. It's maintenance, not repair. And when I replaced the tubes I had a virtually brand new amplifier. Not only that but I could fine tune the sound quality by selecting the tubes which suit my tastes. Can you do that with transistors? Of course not! You get what the designer selected as output devices for however long that solid state amp lives. How boring is that?! How many transistors or ic's are no longer in production for a twenty five year old amp? How many tubes are still availble for a fifty year old amp? Or, for a seventy five year old amp? Caps wear out in a tube amp just as fast as they wear out from age in a solid state amp. If your amp is going on fifteen years in service, it will soon be wise to replace the caps in your amp too. You really think your amp's caps and resistors haven't drifted away from spec? Then you're being a fool. Same sound as when it was new? Not when the circuits have changed values over time it's not! You installed new caps in your amplifier. If the amp was so wonderful, why'd you have to do that? I only replaced items that had worn due to age. Anyone who believes their solid state amp will last forever is not living in the real world. Come back and we'll talk when your Adcom hits forty five years of age. "I was an ardent supporter of Tube until I modified a Adcom, since I hate the tube for the very good reason in your link>>the heat, price and non reliability!" Well, there's someone not living in the real world. My amps do not heat the room but I've had solid state amps in the room which have been real room heaters. Cost? OK, buy cheap crap if that's what you want. That was the purpose of a transistors in the first place, to allow for cheaper crap than when designers used tubes. You think there would be all these BS 700 watt boomboxes without cheap solid state amps? I really can't see a $200 Sony 7.1 receiver with 100 watts per channel from anything other than cheap transistors, can you? Price? I'll take an amp that sounds good for fifty years, thank you very much! "Price" is about as stupid an argument as you could have made. Reliability? Can you name one solid state amplifier manufacturer who does not have a service department to deal with failed components? If you can't - and we all know you cannot - then your argument for the superior reliability of solid state goes right out the window along with every other argument against tubes you have made. How many solid state amps are still in production after fifty years? And highly sought after? None! The Mcintosh MC275 is still a class A amplifier in Stereophile's ratings fifty years after it's introduction. JA wrote, "Classic electronic design is timeless." Show me the solid state amp that can top - or even approach - that. Transistor amps are out of favor ten years after they were designed. You using a dinsoaur, P. How may people have you heard recently saying they really want an Adcom amp? LOL! None! Most people don't even know Adcom ever existed! How many times have you heard someone praising a solid state amp as sounding "tube-like"? Ever heard anyone be happy about any tube amp that sounds "transistory"? I sure haven't! I rest my case, your honor. ROTFLMAO! Why do you try to make something out of nothing when you really have no idea what you're talking about in the first place? Tubes in geneal and triodes in particular are the most stable and the most linear gain devices we have available. Transistors cannot run without some form of feedback, they will self destruct. Triodes can with ease. And, no, increasing the capacitance of the power supply does not alleviate the requirements for NFB. Get real, P! . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16458 Registered: Jan-08 | JV You have to see what is in use as componants in a Adcom, there is nothing cheap, the sound was not at the best for me that is why I modified mine, compared old transistors with recent is a joke to argue as usual, even a McIntosh used a low speed transistors, compare apple with apple my poor JV! I maintain that a tube amp is not reliable replacing parts on manufaturer demand or not! How is the cost of a 200 watts amp for a tube heater vs a solid state amp??? Take same cost amp for both amplification then you will see your tube amp drop in your ideal! As your discuss always in opposition of knowledged members, what I can I say? Continue your romance!!! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16392 Registered: May-04 | . That made no sense what so ever. None. Nada. Zip. Zahooley! As usual; you can't defend your position, you can only make jibbberish. You can't say there is one solid state amplifier people want from the 1960's, '70's or '80's. While I can show you the tubed Mac's, the Dynacos, Quads, Radfords, Citations, Marantz's, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, etc. which are not only desired but which are highly regarded as competitive amplifiers today. Name the most successful consumer amplifier in history. It's tubed. The most long lived in production. It's tubed. The most appreciated in value. It's tubed. The list goes on. They're all tubed. No one sits on Audiogon waiting for an Adcom amp to come up for sale. You want to have a cheap amp? Fine, buy solid state. That's your entire argument. Transistors are cheap audio. My! that convinces me. . |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1368 Registered: Jul-07 | "....compare apple with apple my poor JV!" Indeed, you should reciprocate Plymouth. You, who have applied welding torch to amp, cuz' it don't sound too good, are implying a simple tube replacement (about 30 seconds worth of effort) is high maintenance. Your hypocrisy, indeed, knows no bounds. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16462 Registered: Jan-08 | Chris Compare your tube burner with a solid state with the same price then come back, there is none advantage for the tube, long to start up, unstable after few years, sensitive to the vibrations and sensitive to interferences! This is only a fashion blinding the believer losing even the true sound of live music! |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1371 Registered: Jul-07 | What a joke. "Unstable" now too, huh ? Unstable how ? Long start up ? It's up and running before I can pick out a cd and have it in the case. That's too long ? You don't know what YOU'RE talking about Plymouth, and YOU'RE the one blinded, only it's by your intense and boundless ignorance. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16393 Registered: May-04 | . Long to start up? That's a negative for a tube amp?!!! That you might wait for five seconds while the tubes warm up? Gimme a break! Now you're just reaching around your backside and pulling stuff out that really stinks. Like "unstable after a few years". I admit, in the hands of someone who thinks adding capacitors that expose lethal voltages to the unsuspecting hand is a good idea, "stable" takes on a whole new meaning. Otherwise, I think we all know just which component in your system has become "unstable", P. Once again, get real. Other than buying solid state allowed you to buy something cheap, you got nothing. That's it, isn't it? You bought cheap tubes and wanted better. But good audio costs money. So rather than buy good tubes you bought cheap solid state and convinced yourself you'd made a deal. Then you set about "modifying" your cheap solid state to make it dangerous because cheap solid state didn't really sound that good. Then you convinced yourself throwing money into modifying cheap solid state was the ticket when all you had was chopped up cheap solid state. "Yes, I'm the seller who has a cheap solid state amplifier I want to dump on an unsuspecting idjiot. No, it didn't sound that good when I bought it, it's cheap solid state. Yes, I put money into "modifying" it rather than sending money for something better to begin with. No, I think making something cheap not sound any better than it did before but having more money tied up in it is waaaaay better than buying good gear to begin with. Do a gooogly. LOL! You not know anything. My amp best! It not make you wait five seconds to warm up. What? You not know anything. Do a googly. It's cheap solid state and you'll have to spend lots of money to buy tubes. Do a googly. ... Hello? ... Hello? ... " ROTFLMAO! "Do a googly." Well, you can convince yourself of anything, P, you've proven that. But you haven't convinced me and you won't until you tell me what solid state amp from the 1960's through the 1980's people really wish they would have right now. I can't really think of one unless they just want more cheap solid state. I've already named a half dozen classic lines of tube gear that sell for well above their original retail. Analog solid state is passe. Put it all on a chip and call it digital is the theme today. No, you can't repair it. No, it doesn't sound like music. Tubes go on for another hundred years. That's all that needs to be said. . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16463 Registered: Jan-08 | Tube verses solid state amps by Jim Mathis Links: Jim Mathis Music Blog Mathis Photography There is a lot of discussion about the relative merits of tubes verses solid state in musical instrument amplifiers. So I thought I would put in my two cents worth. I attended electronics school between 1963 and 1966 to learn to repair electronic equipment. Back then most electronic gear contained tubes with not too much solid state. Since my interest was mainly guitar amps and sound systems, and those things were all tubes in the early sixties, that is what I remember. There has been a lot of advancement in solid-state technology in the past 40 years, not so much with tubes. Basically a tube is a voltage amplifier; a small change in voltage at the grid produces a large change in voltage at the plate. A transistor is a current amplifier. A small change in current at the input produces a large change in current at the output. Since a speaker is a low-impedance device, typically 8 ohms, it needs a relative large amount of current at a relatively small voltage. That is why a transistor will drive a speaker directly but a tube needs an output transformer to convert the large voltage change to a large current change. I played in a band full-time from 1966 to 1971. I played bass, was the road manager and was in charge of maintaining the equipment and, in some cases, building it. I started out using a Fender Showman. This was Fender's biggest amp and remains one of the most powerful tube amps they ever made. The Showman had 4 6L6 output tubes (parallel, push-pull.) They didn't rate the power output in those days and there was no set standard for measuring power output. It probably put out about 85 watts, but I have heard the Showman called a 100 watt amp. In about 1969, I bought a Kustom 200. It was a solid state amplifier rated at 200 watts, but not everybody used the same measurements, so power ratings can be dubious. The first thing I noticed is that I had to turn the Kustom up higher to get the same sound level. I was running the Fender around 3 or 4, but I had to set the Kustom to about 6 or 7. An actual side by side comparison showed that there wasn't much difference other than the placement of the knob, and the Kustom was actually slightly louder. Fenders typically produce a lot of gain at the bottom of the control and not much happens past 5 or 6. Putting this in automotive terms, the position of the accelerator is pretty insignificant in determining the performance of the car. There are just so many other things that go into determining performance. Now I have four amplifiers ranging from a Fender Princeton that has been in my family for 50 years, to a state of the art solid state 300 watt Peavey Nashville 1000. Sky Blue often rehearses at Bob & Theresa's. They have a number of amps both tube and solid state which I have used at various times. The Nashville 1000 at 300 watts, definitely has more usable clean power than, say, 100 watt tube amp. Fender did not rate their amps as to power in 1954, but the Princeton probably puts out about 7 watts. It has amazing gain and is very loud in my music room, but when I use it with the band, it has to be miked. The power just isn't there to keep up. It has one 6V6 tube which was never considered a powerhouse. Many console tube radios from the 1930's used 6V6's in the output. An interesting side note: Leo Fender started as a radio repair shop. When he designed all the Fender tweed amps, the power supplies were too small, so they had a weird distortion when pushed hard because they "powered-out" when the strings were hit and then quickly recovered. Later when the CBS engineers took over, they "fixed" this "problem." That is why early Fender amps are so highly valued. Concerning the phenomenon where solid-state amps seem to be rated higher than tube amps for the same output. First, power ratings can be very misleading. For example, you have to double the power to get a 3 decibel increase in sound. Say if 5 watts would give a sound level of 60 db, it would take 10 watts to produce 63 db, 20 watts for 66 db, 40 watts for 69 db, 80 watts for 72, 160 watts for 75, 320 watts for 78 db, etc. So 1,000+ watt amps used at concerts are not at all overkill. The same is true with cars, if a 100 hp car will do 100 mph, a 500 hp will not do 500 mph - maybe 140. Also, the methods used to determine power output are a little suspect, not unlike automobile engines were before 1971. A close read of the specs of a 1000 watt amplifier might reveal that it really puts out only 250 watts into an 8 ohm speaker. That 1000 watts was at 2 ohms, or unloaded, or whatever. Tube amps are often driven at maximum output or even pushed over that to achieve a pleasant distortion. An overdriven solid-state amp does not work as well, so they are usually designed to be used well under maximum output. Distortion can be added though either on board or external effects. Obviously this is not quite the same sound as an overdriven tube. That is why some people are willing to pay a premium for tube amplifiers that use 50 year old technology. In applications where clean sound and ultimate reliability are a concern, solid-state is the way to go. These situations would be sound reinforcement (PA's), bass, steel guitar, jazz guitar, keyboards, electronic drums, etc. In conclusion, tube amps are cool. I grew up with them and know how they work. They have a different sound, especially when pushed hard. Transistors are more practical, more reliable, and can produce huge amounts of power with relative little weight or money. There is clearly a place for both in today's musical world. In clear the tube liker's prefer distorsion using their amp's to the max volume |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16464 Registered: Jan-08 | 'Noisy' on Tubes vs. Solid State March 1996 One of the perpetual discussions audiophiles engage in is tubes vs. solid state. Preamps & amps come both ways and both have their enthusiastic supporters. I like the good things about "tube sound" and I like the good things about solid state equipment. Unfortunately, there is a down-side to each and I really dislike the downsides of tubes & solid state. As a prospective buyer of a preamp or amp you may be struck with uncertainty about what to buy after hearing both sides' arguments. One thing you may notice in tube vs. solid state discussions is that, as a group, tube-guys tend to be more passionate about their tube amps and preamps. They HAVE to be to put up with some of the "cons" of living with tubes. Solid state is a lot easier to live with, but many would argue that the price you pay for the livability is less emotional involvement in the music. A look at the "high points" of the pro/con arguments for both types of hardware is a good place to start. "Pro"-Tube arguments: they sound more like music; modern tube equipment is reliable (mostly); the essential midrange can be presented with almost magical "rightness"; highs sound smooth, floaty and pleasantly real; there are factories still producing all the popular tubes so supplies will be around for the foreseeable future; you seem to get more loudness from less watts with tube amps. Tube -"Con" arguments include: tubes have to be replaced periodically (6 months to 2 years is common for preamps, 1 to 4 years is common for amps) and tubes can be expensive, ranging from $30 or so to retube a line stage preamp with 2 tubes, up to $500 of dollars for more complex tube preamps; amp re-tube pricing runs from perhaps $100 up to $1,000 for top of the line amps; tubes themselves are less reliable than equivalent solid state devices; different tubes make the component sound different, finding "the best" sounding tubes can become a pain and/or obsession; a few designs use obscure or hard to find tubes or very expensive tubes; tube designs are generally measurably "noisier" than comparable solid state designs (though this is not typically audible); some tube designs (amps mostly) leave breakable tubes exposed which may not fit some lifestyles (not a good idea around children for example); tube amps can make a lot of heat in a modest size room; deep bass from tube amps can be bettered by solid state designs; tube amps tend to be more expensive than solid state amps especially if comparing watts to watts; some speakers are difficult loads for some tube amps; if the amp is not "self biasing" (approximately a 50-50 chance) the owner will have to manually bias the tubes and some amps require that you provide your own volt meter to do this, if you aren't technically oriented this can be a challenge Solid State - "Pro" arguments - low distortion; cool running (unless ultra high power or pure class A); highly reliable; no fussing with replacement tubes; excellent control/performance in the deep bass; very quiet; the best designs can be very musical; good designs can drive virtually any speaker made. Solid State - "Cons" - many designs are not particularly musical sounding; highs can tend to be too edgy to sound natural in many designs (yes there are exceptions); usually don't do soundstage depth & width as well as tubes; some solid state designs sound "slow" when directly compared to tube designs in the same system/room; most solid state designs never quite achieve the same level of musicality (how enjoyable the music sounds) that good tube designs achieve (there are a few exceptions to this now and more come as time passes) Both tubes and solid state benefit greatly from careful selection of associated equipment. There are amp-preamp combos in both categories which range from terrible to wonderful. Tube and solid state components both benefit from careful selection of the wires you use to connect them to each other and to the rest of your system. Weighing the pros and cons isn't an easy job. Each person is likely to reach a decision for different reasons. But most people fail to consider a choice that might just be the BEST answer of all. What about having tubes AND solid state? Not too many high end companies make both kinds of equipment, so a mix-and-match approach might be necessary. That's OK as long as it is done carefully. Tube reliability??? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16395 Registered: May-04 | . Oooooooooh, P did a googly! I'm supposed to take the word of "Noisy" who states, "Tube -"Con" arguments include: tubes have to be replaced periodically (6 months to 2 years is common for preamps," If that's the tube gear Noisy is familair with, then Noisy really should wake up and buy good tube gear. Pre amp tubes can last twenty years in most pieces. Geeeeez! "Solid State - "Pro" arguments - low distortion" This is about the weakest argument anyone can make for solid state. Anyone looking at a static THD number when the amplifier is driven into a resistive load has no business telling anyone anything about audio. This BS was batted down four decades ago. Of course, you wouldn't know that, P, since you have such a limited knowledge of anything you see as being "Bla-Bla-Bla". But just the fact you would post such garbage says you have no business telling anyone anything about audio. Particularly when you post this, ""Pro"-Tube arguments: they sound more like music; modern tube equipment is reliable (mostly); the essential midrange can be presented with almost magical "rightness"; highs sound smooth, floaty and pleasantly real; there are factories still producing all the popular tubes so supplies will be around for the foreseeable future; you seem to get more loudness from less watts with tube amps", as something I am supposed to accept as fact. You're arguing against yourself, fella! If the equipment sounds better - more like music - than that's the gear I want. Not some cheap solid state thing. And then you ask, "Tube reliability?" The person you use as your "expert" says tubes are reliable. More importantly, he says tubes are "magical" and "musical". What's the best thing he can say about solid state? " ... good designs can drive virtually any speaker made." That's it! That's it?!!! If some designer puts together a stupidly difficult speaker load, a "good" solid state amp can drive it. Whoa-daddy! That's a selling point. It will sound like pounded dog crap but the amp will probably drive the speaker. Line right up over here, folks. I know you're all gonna want two of these. One to crap on and one to cover it up with. Once again, get real. . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16465 Registered: Jan-08 | Megajocke explain very well my thought about sound and strong power supply in a Solid State amp! http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/143407-voltage-drop-based-load.html Jan You are a azz hole with your idiotic comments about them not in accord with you, acting like a kid as usual laughing of everybody's, you are a plague not able of discussing without bashing them! You are a googly reader without any knowledge on the ground, there are so many poeples which hate you because you always opposite your opponnants to put higher your ego! Yes a plague! "Oooooooooh, P did a googly! " "That's it?!!! " "Once again, get real. " Is it the way to talk like a adult? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16396 Registered: May-04 | . Ya'gotta love it ... "Jan You are a azz hole with your idiotic comments about them not in accord with you, acting like a kid as usual laughing of everybody's, you are a plague not able of discussing without bashing them! You are a googly reader without any knowledge on the ground, there are so many poeples which hate you because you always opposite your opponnants to put higher your ego! Right, P, I'm the one who can't engage in a thread without "bashing" the other fellow. ROTFLMAO!\ GEEZOBEEZO, GUY, GET A GRIP! Just 'cause you got nothing doesn't mean you have to prove it to everyone. .} |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16466 Registered: Jan-08 | http://www.stereophile.com/content/jan-vigne-banned "Jan Vigne banned Posted: November 15, 2010 - 10:41am We have banned Jan Vigne from the forum. I have tried, John Atkinson has tried, Ariel Bitran has tried, and members of the forum have tried to assist Jan Vigne in becoming a valuable, productive, sociable member of our community, but Jan simply could not function within the group. Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining. It's always unpleasant to have to ban a member of our forum, but we feel this is the right decision and we hope it helps to make the forum a better place." "Before DUP was banned, didn't Jan Vigne use some nasty foul name calling, why is that OK." "Before DUP was banned, didn't Jan Vigne use some nasty foul name calling, why is that OK." http://www.stereophile.com/content/second-temporary-ban-dup-1 "psgcdn 10-31-09, 08:59 AM Wow, Ugly sounds exactly like Jan Vigne on ecoustics, denying that he ever posted what he posted a day before. Everyone else can see it but him." |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16467 Registered: Jan-08 | Here we can see the JV politness! http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/56882-impedance-matching/ |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16398 Registered: May-04 | . There are a few folks here who seem to be awfully interested in my activites on other forums. Boy! I really let 'em have it on the Gibson forum, didn't I? "Seriously, if you have any questions, I'll give it a try. Reading the links would be the first place to start." "Super Please stop it or use a language without insult!"; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/683016.html#POST1958640 Practice what you preach, P. Here's the one I like that you posted, "Jan ... you will been the best of this forum, ... everybody know your great knowledge" . |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1372 Registered: Jul-07 | Again, Plymouth, your hypocrisy is showing. Bashing tube gear, bashing Kia's, etc, etc.....and then trying to turn that into Jan's issue. You go around insulting anything that doesn't line up with your narrow ideology of audio, and have the nerve to try to accuse Jan of being a plague. Jees, guy, look in the mirror. People have the right to listen to the gear they find sounds best to them, drive the cars they find suits them....without having to answer to you and your narrow view of the world. Allow for other opinions dude. Be accountable for your own slurs before you go around accusing others. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16468 Registered: Jan-08 | "Jan Vigne banned Posted: November 15, 2010 - 10:41am We have banned Jan Vigne from the forum. I have tried, John Atkinson has tried, Ariel Bitran has tried, and members of the forum have tried to assist Jan Vigne in becoming a valuable, productive, sociable member of our community, but Jan simply could not function within the group. Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining. It's always unpleasant to have to ban a member of our forum, but we feel this is the right decision and we hope it helps to make the forum a better place." http://www.stereophile.com/content/jan-vigne-banned Chris Found me where I talked of Kia? You are blind with Superjazzy comment! I do not bash tube which I like but now I prefer solid state for many qualities! The question is: is it possible for a solid state to sound like a tube? My answer is yes! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16399 Registered: May-04 | . Maybe you've missed it, but I have said repeatedly on this forum that I am not responsbile for what you cannot hear. If someone looks at THD and thinks solid state has lower distortion, then I am not responsible for what you cannot hear. If someone thinks an article on tubed guitar amplifiers being purposely overdriven into distortion - pleasing the user by the way - has anything to do with home audio, then I am not responsible for what you cannot hear. I mean, Geez, guy! didn't the first sentence of the article tip you off? Didn't the constant references to Fender, Showman, Kustom and Peavey make you think you'd hit the wrong googly search? If someone thinks at the component level solid state can "sound like tubes", then I am certainly not responsible for what you obviously cannot hear. If you want something that sounds "like tubes", then you have no idea what music sounds like or how audio should operate. If you want music to sound magically right, real and musical - as Noisy stated it, then you want music that has passed through a vacuum, not through sand. Now, to have you go on and on without any real proof of anything you "think" you believe continues to be a waste of everyone's time. Now you're arguing tubes are better! You really don't know what you think! To have you continue to resort to insults is pure crap. Since you have nothing and will never come up with anything, just shut up, P. You don't have a clue and you never will because you refuse to listen to anyone who understands what you do not and cannot. Go do a googly. . |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1373 Registered: Jul-07 | "The question is: is it possible for a solid state to sound like a tube? My answer is yes!" But that's not what you said, is it ? You said tubes were unreliable, unstable, blah, blah, blah. You didn't say that it was simply possible for solid state to sound as good as tubes, did you ? Rewriting history a bit Plymouth, or trying to. You said what you said, and it was ignorant and insulting to forum members who own tube gear. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16469 Registered: Jan-08 | For Jan which seem not understand the message: "Jan Vigne banned Posted: November 15, 2010 - 10:41am We have banned Jan Vigne from the forum. I have tried, John Atkinson has tried, Ariel Bitran has tried, and members of the forum have tried to assist Jan Vigne in becoming a valuable, productive, sociable member of our community, but Jan simply could not function within the group. Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining. It's always unpleasant to have to ban a member of our forum, but we feel this is the right decision and we hope it helps to make the forum a better place." "Jan Vigne banned Posted: November 15, 2010 - 10:41am We have banned Jan Vigne from the forum. I have tried, John Atkinson has tried, Ariel Bitran has tried, and members of the forum have tried to assist Jan Vigne in becoming a valuable, productive, sociable member of our community, but Jan simply could not function within the group. Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining. It's always unpleasant to have to ban a member of our forum, but we feel this is the right decision and we hope it helps to make the forum a better place." Chris You missed my first discussion with Jan where I talked of an amp which can sound like tube by modication of the power supply then the feedback! I offended nobody's and listed none names at all, I was talked of the reliability which is not good without talking of the heating problem then the consumption etc... Why you are rude over me when I'm talking with you? How can we discussed friendly of sound and good way to improve an amp with the Jan attitude! |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1374 Registered: Jul-07 | "How can we discussed friendly of sound and good way to improve an amp with the Jan attitude!" Stop talking in absolutes. Stop trashing other types of gear that other people own and like. What difference does it make if you list names or not, as you can assume there is someone on this board with tube gear. And not the least of which, open your mind. You keep saying the same things over and over again....tubes are unreliable....tubes are unrealiable.....but your definition of unreliable is whacked. Spending a few seconds every few years to replace tubes is NOT unreliable. Give it up. And don't bring power consumption into the discussion either.....any Class A amp is horribly inefficient, whether with a tube compliment or not. Stop saying things that are unsubstantiated, gross generalizations, or horribly inaccurate. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16470 Registered: Jan-08 | Chris The tube valve is not reliable if you have to replace it, for the rest no problem! I don't know why you are worry about those cons of the tube which you can read on many sites telling same thing as me! I have a old Dynaco Class A 40 watts each channel in the closet and I prefer put the money for the output transfo's and the output cap's on a better power supply then a stronger matched output stage! |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1375 Registered: Jul-07 | "The tube valve is not reliable if you have to replace it," By that definition, everything is unreliable. As Jan pointed out above, many parts in any amplifier degrade and change over time. Some will eventually need replacement if you want to keep the amp within spec. I don't think unreliable is the word you're looking for at all. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16475 Registered: Jan-08 | Chris I agree that many new solid state amp built with chips and chinease cap's are not so reliable than old one, that's why I keep my 80's Adcom for the good reliability using best parts on the market, from what I can heard today's I think of keeping it for again a long period again for the miseray of the industry! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3531 Registered: Jun-07 | There are hundreds of hi fi companies still hand building their stuff with high end parts trying to make ends that would blow away any Adcom ever made. All amps get old. Changing a tube is up-keep at best. People getting into tubes are well aware of this just like a guy buying a car knows he will have to change his tires eventually. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1376 Registered: Jul-07 | Exactly Nick. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16478 Registered: Jan-08 | Hi Nick! When I buyed this Adcom I was desapointed versus my Nad much more smouth, that's why I had modified my Adcom but my surprise was a tube sound, me a great fan of Tube, I had made many tests with more or less feedback spending much time to listen until I was satisfy! I replace my Mercedes before the changing tires! LOL! A joke! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16403 Registered: May-04 | . Audio according to "P" ... "me a great fan of Tube"; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/684714.html#POST1961445 "I hate the tube"https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/684714.html#POST1960569 As you say, P, "LOL! A joke!" I think if we keep this up just a bit longer, guys, P will be telling us he actually modified his Adcom to run with tubes. "A joke" alright, that what this has been - a really pathetic joke. . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1629 Registered: Oct-10 | Hey guys! I know I said I was done with this thread, but I couldn't help noticing that it's still going! Now you're arguing over the merits of tubes vs transistors? Seriously? Both devices have their strengths and weaknesses. So, if you like tubes have a tube amp. If you like tansistors, have a transistor amp. Can't decide? Get a hybrid and be done with it already! GEEEEEEEZ! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16480 Registered: Jan-08 | For Jan which seem not understand the message: "Jan Vigne banned Posted: November 15, 2010 - 10:41am We have banned Jan Vigne from the forum. I have tried, John Atkinson has tried, Ariel Bitran has tried, and members of the forum have tried to assist Jan Vigne in becoming a valuable, productive, sociable member of our community, but Jan simply could not function within the group. Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining. It's always unpleasant to have to ban a member of our forum, but we feel this is the right decision and we hope it helps to make the forum a better place." |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14564 Registered: Feb-05 | Plymouth, I know there must be a translation program you can use because frankly speaking your posts are not readable. Not taking sides just asking that you realize that this is an English language site and to please try and make posts that make sense to someone besides yourself. Copy and paste of a Stereophile thread from sometime in the past really isn't persuasive. Jan and I haven't always gotten along but by realizing that we are both here for the long haul and finding our niche I think we do just fine. Find your niche, Plymouth. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16483 Registered: Jan-08 | Hi Art Sorry for my english, I learn more and more each day! For the C/P of Stereophile, I prefer posted it instead of using insult like Jan! In french a niche is for dog, am I a dog? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16404 Registered: May-04 | . I think it's time to stop posting the comments Mejias made on the Stereophile forum. Everyone has read them and I've said what I have to say about the Stereophile forums and the people who have and have not been banned from that forum. It does not serve the purpose of furthering any discussion on this forum for anyone to post crap from another forum into this one. If you think I am embarrassed by Mejias' words, then you're fooling yourself. If you think anyone wants to read his comments again, then you are really fooling yourself. Grow up. And don't post a link to another forum where I tell other members I will try to assist them with any problems they have understanding the technical aspects of my posts if you're trying to suggest what a mean person I am. You look like a fool doing so. Really! if you cannot take on my posts and deal with what I say in those posts - on this forum - on a technical level, then don't resort to a juvenile attempt to take me down personally. If you cannot respond with anything more than restating exactly what I have proven to be a false statement, you're restatement of the same falsehood for the second, third or fourth time will not make it true. Calling me an "azzhole" falls far short of proof that you are on solid ground with your position. This is for Plymouth and james both; you have now both had your taste of coming into a thread where there is conflict. You have both had your experience of telling the other to put a lid on the conflict and the insults. You both have very thin skin and you both find insults where there are none. I cannot imagine anyone else on this forum wanting to see another thread deteriorate into the BS that you start by announcing I have somehow and in some way "insulted" you. It has been pointed out to both of you by other forum members that you are in the wrong. Argue facts of audio or argue nothing. Calling me an "azzhole" is an insult in everyone's mind. Posting, "For the C/P of Stereophile, I prefer posted it instead of using insult like Jan!", states for everyone to see that you perfer to insult me personally rather than discuss audio. Get over yourself! Possibly neither of you two understand the common rule of the internet forums that states the first person to call their opponnent a N@zi, Hit*er or an "azzhole", etc. immediately looses the debate. Possibly you don't care since you are here only to supply personal insults toward another forum member. I don't know which is the case, but those are the rules and you lost this thread several days ago, P. You posted an opinion not supported by the article George linked to - there were no references to the reliability of tubes in that article - nor about the heat tubes can produce nor about the ten seconds you have to wait for a tube amplifier to come up to operational temperatures. The article was discussing someone's opinion regarding class A vs class B operation. George was wrong when he stated most class A amps are built with tubes. But you, P, took that and started down a path of slamming tubes and wound up at a point where you completely reverse yourself and say, "me a great fan of tubes". No one can discuss anything with anyone who feels their opinoins are like mercury and they can shift position on a whim. Certainly, no one can carry on a conversation with anyone who resorts to calling the other person an "azzhole" just because the posts they have copy/pasted to this forum actually state the superiority of tubes in those areas where tubes are truly superior. If you don't realize what you are posting don't call the person who points out to you what you have posted an "azzhole"! If you don't understand that you are intentionally stepping on someone's toes when you disparage the equipment they own, then learn that you are and that it is highly unappreciated on any forum. Want to know why dup got banned from Stereophile in that link you posted, P? Because he crossed a line and started a thread which literally attacked my tube amplifiers. At that time that was too great an offense to let slide over at the Stereophile forums. It was his first ban out of three and his little band of followers then attacked me for what dup had done to himself. And Mejias and Atkinson sat and watched as the dup sycophants continued to attack me with personal insults and threats to my person. No one else got three strikes, those who made Stereophile's moderators feel uncomfortable got one ban and they were out for good. Of course, when Winer did exactly the same thing a few years later, he wasn't even admonished because he was an untouchable on the Stereophile forums. And when I pointed those inequities out to the moderators of Stereophile, I placed them in the uncomfortable position of defending the indenfensible. Now you know a little more about why I was banned from the Stereophile forums. Now it's time to stop trying to hammer me with the post from Mejias. You look exactly like what you are behaving as when you continue to post Mejias' comments. You've both stepped into a thread and made comments that the other should stop any further insults. Take your own advice on both counts. I've told you I will correct any misstatements either of you make on this forum. If you cannot tolerate someone suggesting you are wrong on matters of audio, then you should be ready to defend your position with facts regarding audio, not repeated copy/pastes from the Stereophile forums. The rest of us are here to discuss audio and, if we wanted to be reading the Stereophile forums, we would be there, not here trying to discuss audio. That someone corrects you or suggests your position is not logical should not be taken as an insult, it should be taken as an invitation to a civil discussion. If you cannot manage a civil discussion about audio, then say nothing rather than start this BS all over again. You two have behaved like children long enough on this forum. You've both acted as the adult in the room on separate occasions now. I repeat for what I hope is the last time - take your own advice. Behave. If you don't like me and you can't deal with the fact I exist on this forum and that I will correct those items that I see as inaccurate regarding audio, either move on or ignore me. As Art says, we are here for the long run. If that is an untenable situation for either of you, I would suggest you consider your options carefully. Like everyone else on this forum, I am very tired of this BS. Both of you should be also. . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1630 Registered: Oct-10 | Plym, Jan and anyone else concerned, whether tubes or transistors sound better is about opinion and perception, not fact. Otherwise, each has its strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, continuing to debate this subject is just plain silly. So, give it up already! Thank you! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16487 Registered: Jan-08 | "Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining." They are right! |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1635 Registered: Oct-10 | I find it interesting that Jan tells us to "grow thicker skin". Meanwhile, he gets all offended when someone puts his precious little tube amps down. He has no reservations about bashing things he doesn't like though. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1382 Registered: Jul-07 | Guess you're not going to follow your own advice and "give it up already!", huh James. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16488 Registered: Jan-08 | Hi Chris! Have we a dictator contradicting quite all comment only to the be the focus of dicussion? Debate or discussion is the purpose of a forum but old members had discussed of those subject's, is this a reason to stop the discussion and close the debate from new idea from other members? How can it be done to resuscitate this forum with this hostility? |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1636 Registered: Oct-10 | Chris, what I said to give up was the debate about tubes vs transistors. "Tubes sound better than transistors." and "Transistors sound better than tubes." are opinions, not facts. Other considerations are a matter of what a listener wants to deal with. Again, each device has its strengths and weaknesses. As for other issues, Jan speaks of the importance of maturity, yet he hasn't shown one shred of maturity when dealing with Plym, Daisybee or me. JazzListener100 is 16 and he has demonstrated more maturity than Jan. Jan repeatedly addresses things I say in a very insulting manner. Most of his so called "corrections" are more about him not liking how I word things than about correcting miss info. He doesn't like it when I say that I prefer accuracy over warmth, so he posts a link to an article where use of the term "accuracy" is bashed. So what? Call it realism or whatever word you like. I'll call it accuracy if I want to. Who made him the vocabulary police anyway? The moderators certainly didn't, that's for sure. After quoting either myself or another op and telling us how wrong we are, he'll repost what we said in another thread only worded differently. That tells me that Jan is either insecure and unwilling to let anyone other than himself show any knowledge at all or he can't figure out the meaning of a fact worded outside his narrow little scope of how to word things. I already know Jan will have childish, bombastic reply to this post. He's so predictable. He'll fight for the last word while calling me sick for doing the same. Great role model you picked for yourself Chris. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16407 Registered: May-04 | . Nothing "bombastic", just a fact. Since you and P do like to refer to the Stereophile forums and I contend you, james, are not telling the truth about a post made to the Stereophile forums I'd like to point out something I find extremely interesting in what you've just posted here. You say, "After quoting either myself or another op and telling us how wrong we are, he'll repost what we said in another thread only worded differently." Compare that to what appears in the Stereophile thread where people get their opportunity to bash someone who has no ability to respond ... Submitted By: 1crazed Cat Location: San Antonio, TX I am not a member of any other forum, however, I do visit some from time to time. I have seen that Jan Vigne is very knowledgeable. He is also insecure and prone to bullying anyone who disagrees with him, knows something he doesn't or posts a fact before he does. This last almost always followed by him arguing with whoever posts the fact, then he turns around and posts the same fact in another thread. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/683016.html#POST1958177 james, you are a liar when you say you did not submit that post to Stereophile. You were a liar there and you are a liar here. "I already know (james) will have childish, bombastic reply to this post. He's so predictable. He'll fight for the last word while calling me sick for doing the same." Yep, you and P are both sick. . . |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1384 Registered: Jul-07 | "Jan speaks of the importance of maturity, yet he hasn't shown one shred of maturity" I disagree, but in any case neither have you or Plymouth. Pure hypocrasy. "Most of his so called "corrections" are more about him not liking how I word things than about correcting miss info." I like how you use the term "corrections" in quotes as a substitute for the word "facts". Those pesky facts from an informed, knowledgable member. God forbid we let accuracy get in the way of dispensing advice. "That tells me that Jan is either insecure and unwilling to let anyone other than himself show any knowledge at all.... " Laughable. Jan is insecure huh ? And you, the one who shall not be corrected, is all cozy in your own skin huh. Your hypocrasy is showing again. "He's so predictable." Ditto fella'. "He'll fight for the last word " Sounds like somebody else I know. "Great role model you picked for yourself Chris." Shows how little you actually know or can perceive. Jan isn't my "role model". I'm not a "follower" of Jan's. I simply respect what Jan has to say, and am thankful that there are members on this board that truly want people to get good advice and information on a typically large spending decision. Jan takes the time to give thoughtful, fact based advice.....rather than regurgitated snippits that the poster barely or poorly understands the basis of. If you took the time to read the posts here objectively you'd notice that the vast majority of visitors greatly appreciate Jan's advice. It often takes them on a different, and better path than the one they are on. But of course, you don't notice this because you just don't like Jan.....largely due to your own insecurity. Jan has already forgotten more than you'll ever know about audio James. Many people would value that. Smart people would leverage that. Your issues with Jan speak volumes about you and little about Jan. Grow up James. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16489 Registered: Jan-08 | Super I have never said that transistors sound better but as well with less cons! Jan "Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining." http://www.stereophile.com/content/jan-vigne-banned |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1638 Registered: Oct-10 | Jan, I am not 1cc of stereophile and therefore posted no such thing therein. Just because I agree with what he said, that does not make me him. In case you haven't noticed, I haven't refered to sp in quite a while. Jan, YOU are a liar. You lie when you say that you didn't deserve to be banned from sp. You deserved to be banned and you got it. You lie when you deny being bombastic and childish. You ARE bombastic and you ARE childish. You ARE a cyber bully and you have no business being in this or any other forum. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1385 Registered: Jul-07 | "Have we a dictator contradicting quite all comment only to the be the focus of dicussion? Debate or discussion is the purpose of a forum but old members had discussed of those subject's, is this a reason to stop the discussion and close the debate from new idea from other members? How can it be done to resuscitate this forum with this hostility?" I've seen your posts over in the satellite section Plymouth, and you have no foundation for any of these claims. You've insulted other members, engaged in idle name calling, etc, etc. You have a very narrow view of what audio and music is all about, and entertain no other points of view. What right do you have to criticize ? You and James have conveniently short memories of your own actions. Face it Plymouth, you don't like to be contradicted any more than James does, and you get snitty whenever someone does. Open your mind for crying out loud. Start listening to what others are telling you instead of trying to preach the gospels according to Plymouth. You both are quite pathetic. Mounting this little Jan revolt is, I'm sure, the highlight of your week. Sad. Very sad. I"m sure the rest of the members here would like all of this nonsense to stop. You complain about how quiet it is here, and you'd like to blame Jan......but the real problem is you two, and the odd others who come back periodically only to stir up sh!t. THAT's why people stay clear of here. I'm not the least bit interested in getting into another round with either of you. It's a waste of time and will get me nowhere, as I've learned over the last few months. You can't fill a cup that is already full. So go ahead. Continue with your childish games. Let the world continue to see the type of men you are. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16490 Registered: Jan-08 | Chris Hyprocrasy of what? So your eyes are closed or you have a problem to read! Jan is arrogant with other members, arguing only for argue, I pointed many times that he is knowledged in audio but not in conception and testing, he read and read on new hardware,s but still a egocentric person banned for this reason at streophile even if he was a old member! This the fact! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16491 Registered: Jan-08 | "I've seen your posts over in the satellite section Plymouth, and you have no foundation for any of these claims. You've insulted other members, engaged in idle name calling, etc, etc. You have a very narrow view of what audio and music is all about, and entertain no other points of view." LOL! You missed something at sat section about bashing! I'm more complete that many here in sound and music working in sound show and music recording, so much here are limited to their own sound room instead of musician world! Get lost Chris! |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1639 Registered: Oct-10 | Chris, your sad devotion to Jan is really growing tiresome now. You need to find a real role model already. Plym, I did not say that you prefer tubes or transistors. I merely pointed that preferences are just that, peferences. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1640 Registered: Oct-10 | Also Chris, you need to read what Jan says to Plym, me and anyone else who dislikes him with your eyes OPEN for a change. If anyone does not find Jan helpful or want his help, he takes it personally. That's what insecure people do Chris. If I offer someone advice and someone doesn't like it, no skin off my butt. That is how Jan SHOULD respond to rejected advice. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16409 Registered: May-04 | . |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1386 Registered: Jul-07 | "Hyprocrasy of what?" Typo. Try googling hypocrisy. "The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform." That's what you two are doing. You don't do any of the things you want Jan to do, yet you expect to receive it in return. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You want respect, give it. So far all you've done is snipe and get you ar$e$ up over the least little thing. You both have hurled plenty of insults, so stop whining about others doing it. As a matter of fact you stoop to it more than everyone else. "You missed something at sat section about bashing!" I didn't miss anything. I can read. You can't qualify your behavior, it is what it is, you typed what you typed. It's yours. Sorry. "JOHNNY BOY the number (dumb-azz) one Your reply look idiot! You win the useless answer of this thread!" Look familiar ? It took about 2 minutes to find. There are many others.....I'm not wasting my time re-posting them all. "I'm more complete that many here in sound and music working in sound show and music recording, so much here are limited to their own sound room instead of musician world! " Show me where I said you didn't know anything ? I said, you don't listen to the opinions of others. Just like you're not listening now. "Chris, your sad devotion to Jan is really growing tiresome now. You need to find a real role model already. " I addressed that above. The only thing tiresome is your unwillingness to read what other people type before going off again. "Also Chris, you need to read what Jan says to Plym, me and anyone else who dislikes him with your eyes OPEN for a change. " Really James, my eyes see well enough. You should re-read my post above. YOU, RIGHT NOW, go read the many posts on this board of people looking for advice, for help. How many times does Jan dispense advice ? How many times is the advice appreciated vs the times someone gets twisted ? How many James ? If you actually READ and pay attention with YOUR EYES OPEN you'd know that you're in the distinct minority. But, this exercise would blow both your and Plymouths whole theory that Jan is a menace wouldn't it ? SO YOU WON'T GO DO IT, CUZ YOU JUST WANT TO BE RIGHT WITHOUT BACKING ANY OF YOUR CLAIMS UP!!! You're wrong. You're both wrong. Look at the facts.....all of them.....not one post from another board that just happens to align with your narrow view of the world. Jan is an asset here, you both are not. You seem to think because I defend Jan that I'm somehow enthralled or something. But I would do the same for any forum member when assaulted by people like you. So if you start this up with Art, Nick, David, Dak, or any others on the board I'd stick up for them as well. If someone was treating you unfairly, I'd stick up for your sorry @ss, despite your behavior to date. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1641 Registered: Oct-10 | Hey Jan! Lean in a little closer. I wanna fry on egg on your forehead! |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1642 Registered: Oct-10 | Why don't you look OUTSIDE this thread Chris? |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1387 Registered: Jul-07 | "Why don't you look OUTSIDE this thread Chris?" You've got the beef with Jan, not me. Go look. Add them up. I know you won't because you know the answer and it spoils the little mirage you're trying to create. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny very well at all, does it ? "Hey Jan! Lean in a little closer. I wanna fry on egg on your forehead! " You're more immature than my 12 year old.....by far. Your family must be very proud of you. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1643 Registered: Oct-10 | Chris, look in the receiver section where Daisybee asked for advice with a multizone receiver. Jan had been advising him, all seemed peaceful. Then, for apparent reason, he turns on Jan. Instead of responding like a man with, "Okay, if you don't like my advice, I can no longer help you." Jan puts up a post filled with childish insulting crap that DB probably never saw. Go look Chris! You're right that I have a beef w/Jan, not you. So why don't you stay out of it? |
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Bronze Member Username: PlymuttblowsmePost Number: 74 Registered: Jul-11 | superjazzyJa(me)s Gold Member Username: Superjazzyjames Post Number: 1605 Registered: Oct-10 Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 01:56 pm: Plym, are you serious? The headphone jack is a power amp output Plym! Granted, this is not a very powerful output and therefore unlikely to harm the pre-amp. I however, would not take the chance of connecting the headphone output to the pre-amp input for pro-longed use just in case. As for the iPhone, the headphone output is designed to be used with ear buds or some type of headphones. Connecting it to a load with an impedence in the tens of thousands of ohms is like reving up a car engine to red line with the trans in neutral. In addition, the sound quality will not be as good as it will when the iPhone is in a dock. Remember the signal path Plym; source, pre-amp, power amp, speakers. When iPhone or iPod is docked, the source is the iPhone/iPod's hard drive. The signal passes through the dock to the Yamaha pre-amp, then on to the power amp and speakers. When you connect through the headphone jack, the signal goes; source, pre-amp, power amp, pre-amp, power amp, speakers. See that? You've just added an extra and unnecessary pre-amp and power amp stage. The signal path should be kept as simple as possible. Even if the iPhone and the pre-amp are not harmed, at the very least, the signal will suffer when connecting through the headphone jack. The headphone jack should be used for headphones and passive speakers only. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Plymutt your a fok tard. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1644 Registered: Oct-10 | Btw Chris, I am not debating how helpful Jan can be or how many people he has helped. What I am talking about is how he reacts when someone rejects his advice. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1646 Registered: Oct-10 | Oh and as for the use of the word "corrections", that's Jan's word. He claims to have "correctedl me. No substitutions Chris. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1388 Registered: Jul-07 | "Btw Chris, I am not debating how helpful Jan can be or how many people he has helped. " That's good. You're learning.....slowly. Now, do what I asked and tally it up. How many happy Customers vs unhappy ones ? Come on James, stop cherry picking the ones that suit your argument. How many ? There are enough people floating around the internet with issues, so nobody is going to bat 1.000. Heck, you and Plymouth are proof of that. You don't bat 1.000. I remember someone getting ticked off at you and thanking Jan in the same thread. Remember that one ? So stop cherry picking and do the math. When you figure out that you are the exception, and 95+% of the people are thankful, if not downright grateful......you'll realize you have no beef. Just a gripe based in your own insecurity. You've already realized you can't win the argument, so just admit it. Jan dedicates time helping people and the vast majority of them are thankful, and the odd one get their ar$e up cuz they don't like being challenged to expand their thinking......to open their minds to other avenues to explore to get to their goals. They are zeroed in and just want someone to say, "heck yeah, go by that amp." When they don't get that from Jan they get cranky. However, most people are appreciative and are mature enough to take the information in, and then try and learn from it. They realize that Jan is trying to help. Unfortunately, maturity is not universal. Nor is reasonability. And Jan did "correct" you, because what you said was incorrect. The two kind of go hand in hand. Grow up James. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1390 Registered: Jul-07 | Remember this one James ? https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/681816.html "thanks to all jan was most informitive and to others its a forum dont take every chance to be a smart a*ss" That's odd isn't. Jan was most informative, and "others", well, not so much. Let's see....who posted on that thread other than Jan and the OP.......ah, just James. Don't you find that interesting James ? I know I do. Moral of the story, not everyone is going to appreciate advice, no matter how delivered. Notice that this poster didn't get a personal hate on for you and start a 100 post thread of back and forth with you about how rude you are. One post, made his point, and was done. There's a lesson there then too. If someone posts something that irritates you, simply say so, and leave it alone. No need to take it personally. Got it ? |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1391 Registered: Jul-07 | This is a good one too.... "Jan, sorry to say that I doubt I will loan you any money but I can say that at least you have gained one loyal reader in this forum that highly respects your opinion. " Wow. He seems to appreciate the help doesn't he. Didn't get all p!ssy or anything. Hmmm. Maybe this Jan person is ok after all ? Huh James ? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16410 Registered: May-04 | . I agree with everything you've said, Chris. I suppose that makes me a Chris follower. Yeah, but I could've used a few extra bucks. lol . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1647 Registered: Oct-10 | The reason I don't tally anything up is because the number of satisfied vs dissatisfied ops has NOTHING to do with what I am addressing. It's no secret that most ops in the home audio section of ecoustics like Jan. Which btw, falls far short of audio forums as a whole. What I have been addressing here is Jan's responses to folks who don't value his input. Jan can't handle a few people in this forum not liking him. That's an insecurity. That's having thin skin and by Jan's own advice that Plym & I need thicker skin is hipocricy. Jan, I don't give a dirty dead rat's hind quarters who you follow. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3532 Registered: Jun-07 | I think I know the issue here....guys...come on......everyone deep down...knows what is going on here.... You have a crush on Jan Vigne. Its cool....I mean...I understand. I use to bother the heck out the girls I had crushes on in public school too, and vise versa. Its natural. Cool...we get it....you two have a crush on Vigne. Lets move on. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1648 Registered: Oct-10 | That was just plain stupid Nick. Jan's own reflection can't stand him. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3533 Registered: Jun-07 | This!! Was plain stupid? lol. A simple joke....Have you read this thread? Seen this forum? What is stupid is a guy who claims he knows more than everyone else on this forum saying that an I-Pod is a power amp. LOL!! What is a stupid is how the creator of this forum programmed it with his grandma's " How To Program " 5 1/4 inch diskettes from 1982. What is stupid is saying Tube amps are un-reliable. There are cheap amps in every category of design. There are amps built like tanks in those categories as well. Your telling me a ST amp from TEAC circa 2011 for 99 dollars on Parts Express will outlast Jan Vignes 5K Tube amps that are 50 years old and still considered by many as some of the best amps ever build weather you dig MAC/tube amps or not(doesn't matter). Come on gents. Lets get over this tassle. Have you not noticed that this forum is slowing dieing. Or already dead? I use to come on here every day as there were tons of threads spewing with great information now its only a s s clowns fighting over BS claims. That is stupid. What is stupid is that P lives in Canada and can't speak our Fu$king language. What is stupid is your Jan Vigne reflection comment James. What is stupid is this whole god damn forum and the idiots that have flourished and completely FU#$CKED it at every angle possible. CAM is better. AudioCircle is better. Every forum I read is better yet I keep coming back here hoping that I see one single thread about music or audio still active. When one starts it dies quick with BS like this. Pathetic. Absolutely F$#cking pathetic. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16492 Registered: Jan-08 | To be continued... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16411 Registered: May-04 | . "Come on gents. Lets get over this tassle. Have you not noticed that this forum is slowing dieing. Or already dead? I use to come on here every day as there were tons of threads spewing with great information now its only a s s clowns fighting over BS claims. That is stupid. What is stupid is that P lives in Canada and can't speak our Fu$king language. What is stupid is your Jan Vigne reflection comment James. What is stupid is this whole god damn forum and the idiots that have flourished and completely FU#$CKED it at every angle possible. CAM is better. AudioCircle is better. Every forum I read is better yet I keep coming back here hoping that I see one single thread about music or audio still active. When one starts it dies quick with BS like this. Pathetic. Absolutely F$#cking pathetic." Absolutely agree, Nick. And from my perspective this decline has occurred only after these long protracted threads began. Not that long ago this forum was always finding new topics to dicuss. Now members have obviously just stopped coming here because they see the constant long running threads and they know what they will find there. Threads where nothing was accomplished other than piliing on more BS on top of the already existing pile of BS. This kills forums, just look at Stereophile as an example of what this type of crap does to a forum. That forum had threads that ran 50+ pages but they were the same battles being fought by the same participants over and over and over. In their case it was the subjectivist listeners (myself, May Belt, Geoff Kait, SAS and Michigan) against the purely objectivist measurement freaks (Winer, Buddha, Elk and then the group from those incredibly destructive forums entered - Arnie, JJ, etc with their only intent being to destroy the Stereophile forums). And while there were some very intelligent topics which were introduced to the discussion those few people who were against any discussion ever occurring eventually brought that forum down. Those people who wished to discuss audio on an audio forum quickly got fed up wth those people who wouldn't allow that to happen. The hubris, and the moderators' ambitions along with their absolute incapacity to consistently and fairly manage what was going on with their forum also greatly contributed to the fall of the Stereophile forums - of that there is no doubt. Today forum moderators allow threads with conflicts to run for pages because it ups the hit count and that is what matters when it comes to advertising revenue. Unfortunately, when the best and smartest people finally gave up on the Stereophile forum after being discouraged - and threatened - by the constant conflicts which only rehashed the same BS over and over with the constant name calling and personal insults coupled to the intransigence of a small handful of trolls to reach any sort of compromise, at that point that forum died. While I would be the last person to make any excuses for the Stereophile forums, as IMO they did what they did to themself, that forum is worthless today. Go over there and they can barely get a thread that has five responses unless it is in the Open Bar where politics are allowed. There is a thread over there right now asking whether a particular cartridge will fit mechanically with a vintage Thorens arm and no one can answer the question - there's literally no one with any sense of audio who now continues to exist on that forum to assist people actually asking about audio. When I mentioned this death by a thousand cuts to JA and asked how Stereophile could bill itself as "The OnLine Audio Authority" when the forums weren't worth reading, his response was something like, "We do other things online." Brian seems to be doing "other things" also and has apparently washed his hands of moderating this forum. The barrage of pop up ads are equally as devastating to new and old viewers as are the threads which draw a new, potential member's attention - those with high post numbers. This is what they see, the constant conflict between two members and the rest of the forum. Or, more specifically, the constant conflict between two members and one other member. Because that is what this boils down to, two members who have a problem with one member. No one else finds the insults these two see. No one else is encouraging these two to continue their war against one member of this forum - quite the contrary in fact. When that is pointed out to these two members, their responses are always about me and how horrible I am, never any acknowledgement of their own culpability in any of this. Those are the actions of internet trolls. Trolls who are not here for the purpose of the forum but rather to take the forum down for their own pleasure. This is the same thing that occurred on the Stereophile forums, a handful of people came in with the mindset they were right and everyone else was wrong and they were going to take down everyone else by existing as trolls. The only difference I see between these two forums is at least over at Stereophile a few of those trolls did actually know something about audio. Here, on this forum, we have two trolls who cannot contain their dislike for me, two who insist they are right when everyone else on the forum tells them there are no insults as they see them. Two trolls who exist on this forum just to begin again today the same conflicts which we just went through yesterday. Tell us, james and P, who has sided with you in your opinons of me? I see no one other than the two of you who have this constant problem with me and continue to make an issue of it. Who on this forum do you think agrees with you that I am an absolutely horrible person? james, while it is absolutely none of your business and you ignore the real facts of the issue, you think a few posters don't care for the response I give to their mostly hairbrained shemes? Sure, that happens on occasion because too many people want someone to say the stupid plan they've concocted is fine. Or they want someone to immediately tell them a model number of some component they can go buy without thinking. I'll never get through to those people and so I generally don't try. But what you fail to see, james, and what is absolutely none of your business in the first place, is that I will often come back with another argument for doing something which does require some thought. In your hatred for me - all because I said you were not correct about sensitivity and efficiency in loudspeakers and then proceeded to introduce three outside sources which showed the correct relationships between those two values - you only see what you prefer to see. And I'll tell you that more often than not when I make a second attempt at righting their ship before they do something stupid they see some flicker of light and they stop to reconsider their plans. But you have no use for those posters, do you, james? They don't fit what you want to stick your nose into when it doesn't belong there in the first place. You have no business complaining about other members when you have nothing of your own to stand on when it comes to sympathetic responses. You do not have to fight any war against me for their sake. That is simply more of your BS that you attempt to perpetuate in order to the spew more of the same BS over and over again while no one on this forum agrees with you. Let them fight their own battles if they don't care for my response and you pay attention to what you are doing. What occurs between anyone else on this forum and myself is none of your business because, as with everything else you post, you have no knowledge what so ever of the facts. This reversal has happened numerous times over the years and often the poster ends up just like Josep who finds great value in my advice and thanks me for my assistance. You won't see this, james, because you prefer your myopic little mindset which only serves to input more faulty information into an ego that seems incapable of saying you have things reversed just as you had - and I'm certain still do have - the realationship between loudspeaker efficiency and sensitivity reversed. The two of you dislike me because I can prove you wrong. No? Shall we take a poll on that matter? I can predict the outcome beforehand and you two will not come out looking good. So, rather than actually learn anything - did you learn anything about the output voltage of an iPhone, james? - you launch into how I have insulted you by posting the correct information. P calls me an "azzhole" when he is being polite. You do not refute the facts I post, because you can't - you just literally cannot. Your only intent is to personally insult me and you get down to busimess immediately. And 100 posts later you still haven't resolved the issue because tomorrow you will find yet another "insult" to once again begin all over again the same tired, sick battles of yesterday. That is what trolls do. That is their only purpose in life. And you two are trolls plain and simple. I realize this will be met with nothing other than more insults from you because that is all you two trolls are capable of producing. You are no different than any other forum trolls on any other forum headed for destruction, you are there not to contribute but to tear down anyone and anything in your way. When do the two of you accept that you are trolls? Or, do you already know you are and that is why you came here in the first place? Trolls who cannot get along with any other member of this forum when all the other members have turned against you. Tell me again, just who here has sided with the two of you against me? I know this is hopeless, you two are intent on being the trolls of this forum. Nothing anything anyone says will ever elicit any response from either of you that isn't about how horrible I am. And you will always have to have the last word. You two are acting like fools. But that is what trolls do for their own pleasure. . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1650 Registered: Oct-10 | Nick, I did not engage in the tubes vs transistors debate except to say that each has its pros & cons and that which sounds better is a matter of opinion. I certainly never compared $99 Teac amps to Jan's amps. I never brought up Teac. You don't know much about Canada, do you Nick? Ever hear of French-Canadian? .... Didn't think so. Well, that's what Plym is. There are entire parts of Canada where French is spoken almost exclusively. Plym does his best with English, so give the man a break! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4457 Registered: May-05 | Simon - Hope you're still around... A great cost effective measure to integrate your iPod into your system seems to be the Pure iPod dock. Apparently, it has a digital output and also has it's own internal DAC, which I believe that bypasses the iPod's DAC and uses it's own. A lot of people have had a lot of good things to say about it. I haven't personally heard/used it, so I'm just going by what I've read. It's $100 over here, so not a very expensive proposition. An iPod connected to this (with Apple Lossless files) may sound better than any similarly priced CDP. Keep in mind that if you're looking into a used CDP, be wary of the amount of life left in the transport mechanism. At the very least, do a bit of research on the Pure dock. It's becoming a cult classic. Another alternative is the HRT iPod dock. Not sure exactly what it's called. Doesn't have a digital output and is twice the price, so I'm not sure if it's worth the extra outlay. The Pure's digital output will definitely be a plus if/when you decide to upgrade, as you can add a better external DAC down the road for increased sound quality. The Pure is basically the Wadia iTransport, only cheaper and appears to have less bugs. Not to mention internal DAC. Just throwing that out there. I'd get one, but my Apple TV gen 1 is basically a 160 gb iPod with digital out. The Pure dock would be pretty redundant and a step backward in ease of use in my system. If I had a second system that I wanted to keep as simple as possible and affordable, the Pure is where I'd start with a source. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16495 Registered: Jan-08 | "Jan Vigne banned Posted: November 15, 2010 - 10:41am We have banned Jan Vigne from the forum. I have tried, John Atkinson has tried, Ariel Bitran has tried, and members of the forum have tried to assist Jan Vigne in becoming a valuable, productive, sociable member of our community, but Jan simply could not function within the group. Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining. It's always unpleasant to have to ban a member of our forum, but we feel this is the right decision and we hope it helps to make the forum a better place." http://www.stereophile.com/content/jan-vigne-banned "Good move Posted: November 21, 2010 - 6:21pm Struther Martin in Cool Hand Luke comes to mind." "Couldn't agree more. You Posted: November 21, 2010 - 9:54pm Couldn't agree more. You guys had enormous patience with him." "While I agree with the Posted: November 22, 2010 - 2:22pm While I agree with the determination, it's still sad. Jan has some real knowledge and could be an asset. Unfortunately he has been banned from numerous forums. Most are much less patient with him than our moderators here." "It had to be done Posted: November 22, 2010 - 3:42pm I personally thought it should have been done a while back, but better late than never. Time to bring in some fresh contributers!" "This is sad, but not surprising Posted: April 28, 2011 - 6:25pm I am not a member of any other forum, however, I do visit some from time to time. I have seen that Jan Vigne is very knowledgeable. He is also insecure and prone to bullying anyone who disagrees with him, knows something he doesn't or posts a fact before he does. This last almost always followed by him arguing with whoever posts the fact, then he turns around and posts the same fact in another thread." No comments! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16496 Registered: Jan-08 |  We can see the difference without Jan! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16412 Registered: May-04 | . OK, you two! You have nothing but complaints - and a single thread from Stereophile to contribute to this forum. Complain, complain, complain! What other forums have said about me is no business of this forum. Particularly when what you are posting is pure CYA on Mejias' part and Elk doesn't have a clue about anything. Other than having nothing to contribute I suppose that is why P thinks reposting the same thing constantly proves something when it does not. You feel perfectly comfortable insulting me yet your only complaint I can find is I insult you. Again, that sort of BS is what trolls do. Tell us what your solution is to the problems you see? Rather than rehashing the same BS everyday for the last year, you two have never made any positive contribution to this forum. All you two trolls do is insult. So what solution to the problems you see - which no one else can find - would suit you? I'd like to know what would make you two trolls happy. . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16497 Registered: Jan-08 | http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/stereophile.com# |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16498 Registered: Jan-08 | My poor Jan, there is none insult like you do but just the fact of what you are! There is so many proof of your impolitness on many sites, like on eCoustics you turned it in your side trying to pass for the victim! It's a pity for you! |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1651 Registered: Oct-10 | You still don't get it Jan. On the upside, you have knowledge and share it. No issue there. On the downside, if anyone rejects your advice, you take that as a personal insult an post an endless and needless post about how right you are and how wrong they. Chances are, said op never even reads these posts. The other issue is that your corrections of me are always down talk and more often than not, you don't even realize that it's my wording of a fact that throws you off. Either you can't recognize the fact worded another way or you are insecure and therefore, you must argue only to repost the same fact worded another way in another thread. Those are the only 2 possibilities. I am not anymore interested in continuing this fight than you are Jan. However, if you are going to accuse me of being sick and for persuing the last word while you keep persuing the last word, expect the same. In other words, if persuing the last word makes one sick, you're no healthier than me. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3534 Registered: Jun-07 | James - I am Canadian. Born and raised. I am quite aware of all the french speaking areas of Canada (and the ignorant idiots that live there) and the 22 percent of Canadians that are french speaking. 80 percent of that number live in Quebec of course. This doesn't change my Canadian bred opinion of them or the fact I believe they should speak English. But this has nothing to do with audio, just my biased opinion on other matters.The Teac example was just that, an example. Never in my post did I claim that you said anything or compared anything. Nowhere in my post did I mention that SuperJazzy brought up Teac. I could go the other way and compare a cheap china made Jolida tube amp vs a hand build, Canadian engineered beast like a Bryston 100sst2. Either way the argument that tube amps are less reliable then SS amps is insane. Jan- Well said. Stu - Good suggestion on the Pure unit. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16413 Registered: May-04 | . So you have no solutions, james, only complaints? Here's what I "get", why should anyone pay attention to a constant complainer who voices the same exact constant complaints ad nauseum over and over on a near daily schedule? Someone who refuses to accept any responsibility for what we have here as a major problem of threads being dragged into the ditch by nothing more than constant complaints and insults from the two trolls on this forum. Why should anyone pay attention to complaints only you and P are capable of seeing? How can we be expected to see what is not there? This point has been made plain to you by various members of this forum, do not argue the issue. You see insults that do not exist. You make up BS about me that simply does not exist. This new kick you have of me being insulted by those who do not accept my initial advice is pure BS and you cannot get anyone here to accept that I have that flaw. So stop with that BS. I'm trying to find a solution to this issue we face and it cannot be done when you continue to make up complete BS to complain about. You have nothing to say about how I deal with anyone other than you. Come up with a solution to that matter. Get that through your thin skinned, thick head! Come up with solutions, man. Can't you simply do that? The rest of us have all come up with solutions to the problems we see here. What are your solutions? We have no use for more of your complaints, what are your solutions? If you cannot think of a solution, then you have no business complaining. If you have no solutions, you will continue to run into the same problems because only you see them. If you have no solutions, then why are you complaining? Have you given no more thought to this other than to come up with more complaints about me? What are your solutions? You say you want no more of this, then what is your solution to ending this? You cannot simply b!tch and have no way to stop b!tching. Are you that self consumed that everything is about you complaining? Everything is about how I offend you? What the he11 is the matter with you? What do you have as a solution so we might end this constant complaining? Speak! This is your opportunity. Say what will end this and possibly we can reach an agreement. Complain more and there is no hope. There will only be more proof you have no solutions, just more worthless complaints. And I will begin by repeating what I have told you all along, I will not ignore your inaccurate statements. I've been on this forum far too long to allow someone who regularly spouts inaccurate statements to be allowed free reign on this forum My correcting information is not an insult. Get that through your skull! You are free to discuss the matter civilly - but that never sems to be what you prefer to do. No one else here takes correct and accurate information as an insult, only you and P. Look around, fella, I see a solution in that statement. So you will have inaccurate information corrected. That is my point of beginning negotiations and it stands for both you and P. NOW! What solution can you provide? . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1653 Registered: Oct-10 | Jan, it is NOT correct info that offends me. What does? The way that you present it, as in your insulting method of speaking and when you tell me I'm wrong about something, then make the same statement I did only word differently. Just because you don't see what you say as insulting, doesn't mean it's not. You don't rule this forum Jan, so don't expect me to take orders from you. When 2 people can't get along for whatever reason, the smart mature thing to do is leave each other alone. You've made it clear to me that you have no intention of leaving me alone. There are only 3 possiblities that I can see: 1. You & I just don't talk. Not real friendly, but no one else has to see any ugliness. 2. You learn to speak civily and you don't understand what I say, ask me to clarify rather than simply assume it's miss info. 3. Things continue as they have been. All 3 options have been available to you all along Jan and so far you keep choosing option 3. If you want 1 or 2, choose that instead...unless you have another solution you'd like to try. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4459 Registered: May-05 | Why do you guys have to do this crap? Haven't you ruined enough threads? Wonder why no one comes around anymore? |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1392 Registered: Jul-07 | The problem with your #2 James is that few people other than you and P have an issue with how Jan "speaks". I think what we've been trying to get you to understand is that when almost everyone else is cool with it, and you're not.....then it's not Jan's to fix is it ? It's your problem. And what your suggesting is that Jan fix YOUR problem, which will absolutely not work. What are YOU prepared to do James. Stop asking others to fix your problem. What are YOU prepared to offer ? Anything ? I think you should add; 4. James will grow up and learn to accept the fact that he is wrong on occassion. When he is wrong he will accept the feedback he receives in the manner it is intended and written, not in the overly-sensitive way he has been internalizing it. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, South Carolina Post Number: 14328 Registered: Dec-03 | Stu, this is precisely why I went to moderated forums like AVS and DIYAudio instead. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in that. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 556 Registered: Mar-04 | Hey Chris when did you become a spokesman for Jan ? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 557 Registered: Mar-04 | "Stu, this is precisely why I went to moderated forums like AVS and DIYAudio instead. I'm glad to see I'm not alone in that." I think adults can moderate themselves as long as they control their egos. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1654 Registered: Oct-10 | Plym and I are NOT the only 2 ops ever to get offended by Jan here in ecoustics or elsewhere. Most of the others never came back. The people who like Jan here are the ONLY people I've seen anywhere who like him. Most ops who don't like Jan, don't like how he speaks. That's a good question Ub. Just when did you become Jan's mouth piece Chris? If other ops are going to add fuel to the fire, the fire will keep burning. So if you want to see it go out, let it go out Chris. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16414 Registered: May-04 | . " Jan, it is NOT correct info that offends me What does? The way that you present it, as in your insulting method of speaking and when you tell me I'm wrong about something, then make the same statement I did only word differently. Just because you don't see what you say as insulting, doesn't mean it's not." No one else sees what I say as an insult to you. That has been made clear to you on multiple occasions where you have insisted I have insulted you and you have gone off on a tear. Do you deny other people have told you that you have been wrong about this? Do we need to supply you quotes from recent posts which demonstrate what I have just said? What is it that will satisfy you, james, that in the opinion of other readers I have not insulted you even on those many occasions where you believe an insult exists? Settle this now please. What will it take to get you to see what others see? " You don't rule this forum Jan, so don't expect me to take orders from you. When 2 people can't get along for whatever reason, the smart mature thing to do is leave each other alone. You've made it clear to me that you have no intention of leaving me alone." Stop with the constant insults for godssake! No one ever suggested I do rule this forum. I've made it quite clear to you this is a public forum and you have the same rights as does everyone else to be here, those rights also extend to me. What you do not have the right to do is to constantly destroy threads with your constant complaints and personal insults. What you are not entitled to receive is any sort of special dispensation from correct information. No one else here has that, and you will not be the one person I afford that luxury. As you have been told repeatedly, if you make an inaccurate statement, say, " All of your speakers should have the same type of tweeter. Single driver speakers will only work well (sound right) when used with either other single driver speakers or speakers with cone tweeters. Either way, the highs are coming through a cone. If your fronts have hard dome, soft dome, horn or other type of tweeters, the rears will not be compatible with them", I will post the correct information. No one else agreed with your your statement regarding tweeters. That was made plain to you. I asked you to prove your statement and you said it was your opinion. That's fine, as I said at the time, but facts do not support your opinion. I asked you to clarify the facts you were using to base your statement upon. You have recently been trying to hide your misstatements behind "opinion" and escape facts altogether. It was pointed out to you by several members that you said what you had said and that what you had said was inaccurate. Then the thread went to sh!t. Those are the facts of the case. No one here agreed with you about any of your statements, no one here agreed that you did not make an absolute of mixing tweeters. You were wrong. There is no dispensation for anyone to not provide correct information. There is no dispensation for anyone to ignore facts. There is nothing I did that should have sent that thread into the crapper. I didn't "restate" what you've said, james, I stated exactly what you've said. Everyone agreed on that other than you. But you do a fair amount of "restating" of what has been said. " I find it interesting that Jan tells us to "grow thicker skin". Meanwhile, he gets all offended when someone puts his precious little tube amps down", is not what was said. I said intentionally denigrating anyone's equipment should be considered off base and a violation of common civilty as it is on most audio forums. Don't expect rules that you do not yourself adhere to, james, nor should you P. "Poor Jan! Tube is old technology back as new fashion nothing more, it was good in old days but today even the tube is not in use for its quality in transmitting! That should never have been said. Discussions such as this where there is no end in sight are generally not allowed on most forums and, if we had a moderator who seemed to give a d*mn about the forum, this would have been stopped before it began. "When 2 people can't get along for whatever reason, the smart mature thing to do is leave each other alone. You've made it clear to me that you have no intention of leaving me alone." When two people cannot get along, the smart and mature thing is to come to a reasonable compromise when they must share a common space. Don't once again complain about me when you have been an active partner in the disruption of threads. That is what you constantly do, james, you constantly find fault with me and you accept no blame for your own behavior. What I am asking you to do is come up with a solution to the problem we face as to how two people who don't seem to be able to communicate can coexist. Yet you once again turn this into a complaint about me and absolve yourself of all responsibility. You do see what you done here, do you not? Take responsibility for what you do and say. And do not respond with yet another insult directed towards me where you simply once again deny what everyone on this forum has told you. Then, once again, what is your solution to the problem? Because #1 is not going to be practical unless you stay off the forum. I'm here, james, I have been here on this public forum for many years and do not intend to ignore someone who has such a penchant for misstating facts and "opinion". You have been told by numerous individuals that you are most often the cause of the "ugliness" on these threads. Why do you not accept that as a reasonable indictment of your actions? If no one sees the insult you have reacted to, why do you not finally get the message that you are behaving poorly? "You learn to speak civily and you don't understand what I say, ask me to clarify rather than simply assume it's miss info." Yet another complaint about me rather than a solution! What is your problem?! Look! I asked you in the thread I quoted above to explain your position; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/683016.html#POST1957403 Read it again, james, because it is exactly what you just suggested as a "solution". I asked you quite civilly to explain yourself. You could not back up your absolute of mixing tweeters. You had no facts. I didn't even originally correct your misstatement. I suggested I had a very different opinion and then asked you for clarification of your own statement. You couldn't answer! Crimeny! that was pointed out to you by several other forum members. What don't you get here? I do what you ask and then that is still not good enough and you still turn it into a complaint about me?!!! "All 3 options have been available to you all along Jan and so far you keep choosing option 3. If you want 1 or 2, choose that instead...unless you have another solution you'd like to try." Yes, james, I do. "4. James will grow up and learn to accept the fact that he is wrong on occassion. When he is wrong he will accept the feedback he receives in the manner it is intended and written, not in the overly-sensitive way he has been internalizing it" Allow me to repeat what Chris has said on numerous occasions, I cannot fix your problem. You have to find a way to not see everything as someone else's problem when the issues are within you. You are not the ruler of this forum, either. And you have nothing to say about whether I am "insulted" when someone rejects my opinion. First, that's pure BS on your part and, most importantly, it's none of your f*cking business. As has been said to you over and over, practice what you preach, fella! Look, james, this BS of destroying threads is very old. The problem has been tied to your reactions to me not really to what I say. You were wrong about speaker sensitivity/efficiency, you were wrong about mixing tweeters and you were wrong about an iPhone's output stage. You make a lot of misstatements. Then you begin to back out of what you've said when someone suggests you might not have your facts right and then before you know it the thread has gone into the ditch. And I am always the one you blame for that. Always! The solution has been suggested, "james will grow up". I would add to that, "james will have emotional stability when he comes onto this forum." . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16415 Registered: May-04 | . "Plym and I are NOT the only 2 ops ever to get offended by Jan ... " Awwww, geezus! What the he11 is wrong with you? . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1655 Registered: Oct-10 | I'll tell ya what Jan. If you can make an effort to be less offensive in your approach, I'll try not to take offense at what you say. Just don't keep saying it's all my fault. This is not one sided and I am here to stay too. How does that sound? |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1093 Registered: Dec-06 | Here's an observation...it wasn't long ago that James was not on the forum, and Plymouth barely posted in Home Audio. The forum was more active and, aside from a spat here and there that quickly boiled over, the regulars got along fine. Is the forum stronger since James and Plymouth started posting? The answer is clearly, NO. Jan's been posting here for at least 7 years, by the way, and has contributed more audio knowledge than everyone else combined. Gee, I wonder why most of us support him. Read the above paragraph again and let it sink in. Not saying you two are not welcome, the more the merrier. But neither of you are bigger than the forum, nor are you bigger than Jan, so to drag so many threads down with your little crusade is just ridiculous, because most readers would no doubt rather read Jan and others stay on discussion. But when you drag the forum down that's exactly the message you send - that you think your little stupid crusade is more important than whatever else anyone in the thread wants to discuss. Well guess what boys? No one gives a cr@p about your hurt feelings and what a big meanie you think Jan is. Here's what you can try next. If and when you spout misinformation, and are challenged on it, either rise to the challenge and prove you are right, or just admit you can't. If you continue to be adamant about your position and say it's accurate then don't expect much sympathy if Jan turns up the heat. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16416 Registered: May-04 | . "I'll tell ya what Jan. If you can make an effort to be less offensive in your approach, I'll try not to take offense at what you say. Just don't keep saying it's all my fault. This is not one sided and I am here to stay too. How does that sound?" Like you have just insulted me again! I don't see that your "solution" is any solution at all as it still leaves you free to fly off the handle and claim I have wronged you and everyone in the known universe just because you can see an insult no one else can find. Have you completely misssed what everyone has been telling you for the last year? You see insults that no one else can find and that do not exist in anyone else's opinion. You create problems for the entire forum when you do not accept that what you have said is inaccurate. And you have repeatedly said things which no one here can accept as accurate. This is not just an issue of me finding you to be incorrect, this is an issue of you not knowing very much about audio but insisting you do. This is an issue of you turning everyone's corrections into an insult towards me. This is an issue of you becomming unhinged and suddenly showing up with your insults on compeletely unrelated threads where I have posted. This is an issue of you posting BS like, "That was just plain stupid Nick. Jan's own reflection can't stand him" What is the point of that?! How does that further anything? And let's not forget that you own the most indecent post anyone has seen on this forum. This is about you constantly not behaving as any rational adult should act. What is your solution to those issues? And do not place the blame on me for what you've accomplished all on your own. . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1656 Registered: Oct-10 | Jan, I am trying to work with you here. Work with me okay? If I find your style offensive, it's for a reason. If you intend to continue playing the blame game insisting everything is my fault, just say, "James, as always, I choose option 3." Then I know to expect things to go on as they have. Otherwise, if you truly want peace, it's not going to be one sided. I have not been arguing with myself all this time. You are certainly as much a part of it as I am. So, you want peace, be peaceful. Thank you. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16417 Registered: May-04 | . I find your "style" offensive for very clear reasons, james. You have insulted me three times in that short post! What is it you think Dan and Chris and a few others who unfortunately no longer post on this forum have been telling you since the day you arrived here and began your assault on this forum? How can you completely ingore the repeated comments they have made about your perception of audio, this forum and of me? You say you are trying to work with me? Then work with me here, james. You are blatantly offensive. That point has been made to you on numerous occasions. You find insults where none exist. What do you think these folks have been saying to you all this time? What assurance do we have that you will not find yet another insult in the next thread? . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1657 Registered: Oct-10 | You won't know till try, will you? |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16499 Registered: Jan-08 | "Jan Vigne banned Posted: November 15, 2010 - 10:41am We have banned Jan Vigne from the forum. I have tried, John Atkinson has tried, Ariel Bitran has tried, and members of the forum have tried to assist Jan Vigne in becoming a valuable, productive, sociable member of our community, but Jan simply could not function within the group. Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining. It's always unpleasant to have to ban a member of our forum, but we feel this is the right decision and we hope it helps to make the forum a better place." http://www.stereophile.com/content/jan-vigne-banned "Good move Posted: November 21, 2010 - 6:21pm Struther Martin in Cool Hand Luke comes to mind." "Couldn't agree more. You Posted: November 21, 2010 - 9:54pm Couldn't agree more. You guys had enormous patience with him." "While I agree with the Posted: November 22, 2010 - 2:22pm While I agree with the determination, it's still sad. Jan has some real knowledge and could be an asset. Unfortunately he has been banned from numerous forums. Most are much less patient with him than our moderators here." "It had to be done Posted: November 22, 2010 - 3:42pm I personally thought it should have been done a while back, but better late than never. Time to bring in some fresh contributers!" "This is sad, but not surprising Posted: April 28, 2011 - 6:25pm I am not a member of any other forum, however, I do visit some from time to time. I have seen that Jan Vigne is very knowledgeable. He is also insecure and prone to bullying anyone who disagrees with him, knows something he doesn't or posts a fact before he does. This last almost always followed by him arguing with whoever posts the fact, then he turns around and posts the same fact in another thread." |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16500 Registered: Jan-08 | http://www.stereophile.com/content/adcom-power-amps-what-are-they-1 LOL! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16418 Registered: May-04 | . james, I'll take your response to mean you have no earthly idea what Dan, Chris, Nick, etc have been trying to get through to you. That's very sad because they have invested a goodly amount of time and energy in their attempts to open your eyes. If you see blame, don't say james. Even more sadly I'll have to assume you've decided there is no fourth option as mentioned by Chris. Therefore, by a process of you eliminating any hope of all others, I have to assume you've made the decision to go with your third option and screw the rest. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16419 Registered: May-04 | . Plymouth, it's no wonder you know so little about most things. You are as dense as adobe. And as clear with your intent as ... I don't know what might meet the criterion here. Few things in nature are as unclear as you. But since you brought up that Stereophile thread, yes, that is the environment I existed in when I was on their forums. That is a quite mild thread by comparison. And a good example of how Stereophile has whitewashed much of the archived threads of any sense of wat actually occurred over there for several years. Archived threads and posts lack any sense of who the poster is responding to and large chunks of responses are ommitted. Elk refers to jackfish early in the thread but there is no post from jackfish in the archives until well after Elk's post. The same thing happens throughout the current Stereophile archives making a mishmosh of any sense of how responses flowed. But taking a look at what is there you can see the way the Stereophile forums went most often. I responded to question about "how good" are Adcom amps by asking why the op is interested in Adcom when he cannot audition the amp and he can audition many other products in his locale. The next dozen responses are other members who have all crossed swords with me and all you had established a grudge they could not let go (dup had been banned for the second time and the room acoustics threads had taken a turn for the worse with the assistance of Elk, Buddha and Winer) trying to take me down for asking that simple question. All of them reading into my posts a "tone" that only they could see. None of them actually taking into account the needs of the op. "Since this was again posted as a reply to me, I'll assume I am again being blamed for something that did not occur. I understand the feeeling of not knowing what you do not know. But if you are going to be offended by any response to your overly broad question, a response such as, "You've asked a very broad question", then you are going to have a hard time traversing the waters of consumer audio or life for that matter. If you asked a mathmetician how he arrived at the final number of a formula that took up an entire page of calculations, you would very likely get the same response, "your question is too broad." At the moment we are suffering through another election year where tax policy, foreign policy and social policies are being reduced to fifteen second sound bites. Simply treating all questions as if they can be answered in fifteen seconds without any feedback has not served us well over the course of the last few decades. It will not serve us well in the future. If you think all your questions are brilliant, you should re-examine your thinking. Most are not, especially when you are unfamiliar with the territory. So, asking questions and stating up front where someone has veered from the course or can't find the destination because they cannot focus on the map is hardly a bad thing. vanDee admitted his lack of information, that puts him a step ahead of someone who gets offended when called a noobie. He was not offended and he came back within the allotted twenty four hour time span we graciously extend to those not actively engaged in the battles that go on here on this forum where a quick reply is your best weapon. What I find more offensive is the constant sniping that exists on these threads only because some members continue to harbor grudges that get in the way of serving the op and the forum. Like I said, I did not insert the first insult into this thread. It would be very easy for these threads to not decend into blood baths. But not asking a question to get clarification isn't what is required for that to happen." That and the very end of my time at Stereophile where I was forced into three threads by Ariel - the (then) new intern taking his turn at moderating the forum for a weekend and trying like he11 to impress JA - and the ban that was imposed on me states, "Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining." That JA, Mejias and the (then) new intern Ariel had tried to "assist" me in any way is just as much a baldfaced lie as is the rest of that thread. So, P, I have no idea what you are rtrying to prove with this constant posting of the Stereophile thread. I find it just as juvenile as any other you've posted. You are incredibly tiresome. "Jan is absolutely correct. The importance of this can not be overstated." "Thank you Scott and Jan. I will have a look into your link." . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16512 Registered: Jan-08 | I don't read anymore your useless posts Jan don't lose your time! So you don't have to many supporters! Nick is apparently a Quebec basher like few canadian which has never come in Quebec! Is that Chris is Jan?????????????????????????????? |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1658 Registered: Oct-10 | So basically Jan, you're telling me that you choose option 3. Okay then, you've got it! Just don't complain when you get option 3. You asked for it! |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1393 Registered: Jul-07 | It will continue until you grow up James. This is old hat for Plymouth, he's been insulting people for over 16 thousand posts, and adding little else. Fortunately for us he has stayed over in another forum.....until now. And what leads him here....bickering and arguing. That's all he's here for....to stir the pot....to insult. It's sad really. A couple of members who don't care about the success or failure of the forum, only their ego's and, I suppose, some demented form of entertainment. Go ahead James, continue with the status quo. I had hoped you had it in you to change.....but apparently you can't accept any responsibility at all. So be it. But don't kid yourself. Everyone on here knows what you and Plymouth are. Don't think for a second you have the respect of anyone. "Is that Chris is Jan??????????????????????????????" This, above all else, highlights the extent of your powers of deductive reasoning. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1659 Registered: Oct-10 | What has happened between Jan and me is between Jan and me. What has happened between Plym & Jan is between them. Chris, you are only adding fuel to the fire and nothing else. Jan is popular here in this audio section of eCoustics. No one else in any audio forum anywhere likes him. I have been to many audio forums where he is very, very hated. Why is he hated? Because MOST people find him offensive. Such people won't join this forum until and unless Jan is banned. Those same individuals like me because we discuss audio in a mature manner. If someone says something in err, it's corrected maturely and respectfully. That' something Jan is not capable of. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1394 Registered: Jul-07 | How, exactly, am I adding fuel to the fire ? You'd love it if you and Plymouth could hurl insults at Jan and everyone just left you to do it, huh ? I'm trying to end it, and I'm adding fuel to the fire ? You're the one causing the trouble fella, so don't even think about trying to lay the blame on me. Blame everyone else huh, James. It couldn't possibly be you could it ? "No one else in any audio forum anywhere likes him." Another insult that you won't prove. More slander that's unsubstantiated. "I have been to many audio forums where he is very, very hated. " More insults. Prove this James, list them. List all the forums Jan is hated on and send links to the posts that prove Jan is very, very hated. "Because MOST people find him offensive. " Another insult. Prove this one too. List all of the people who find Jan offensive and all that don't. Come on. PROVE IT! From what I've seen, the vast majority find Jan very helpful. You admitted that yourself. Now you say this ? You're all over the map James. All tied up in your own bull. "Such people won't join this forum until and unless Jan is banned. " Prove it. Who won't join ? Give me some names. "Those same individuals like me because we discuss audio in a mature manner." You're the least mature person on here. And the conversations are only mature as long as nobody corrects you when you're wrong. I can list a few people on here that don't find you mature. Should we put your maturity to a vote James ? How do you think that would look ? You think I'm adding fuel to the fire because I challenge all of your ridiculous claims and insults. They are all either just plain wrong, or horribly overstated to support your claim that you're an angel and Jan is evil. That dog just won't hunt. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16422 Registered: May-04 | . "So basically Jan, you're telling me that you choose option 3. Okay then, you've got it! Just don't complain when you get option 3. You asked for it!" Well, there you have it! Another example of james not correctly stating - or perceiving - what has been posted. "james, I'll take your response to mean you have no earthly idea what Dan, Chris, Nick, etc have been trying to get through to you. That's very sad because they have invested a goodly amount of time and energy in their attempts to open your eyes. If you see blame, don't say james. Even more sadly I'll have to assume you've decided there is no fourth option as mentioned by Chris. Therefore, by a process of you eliminating any hope of all others, I have to assume you've made the decision to go with your third option and screw the rest." I did not "ask for it". I asked you for a solution. You have none. You refuse to accept anything other forum members have told you about your own behavior. You want to make this my fault that you have no more ability to control your own behavior than does a baby in diapers when the entire process of you blowing up threads began when you posted incorrect information regarding loudspeaker sensitivity/efficiency. From that point forward you have been insufferable and numerous people have told you exactly that. All because I can post the correct information and supply sources to back up my statements. And you can do neither. The problem is within you, james, it does not extend to me by way of you being incapable of letting go of a grudge you have held for over a year. This is exactly where the Stereophile forums got to in that thread which P linked to. "What I find more offensive is the constant sniping that exists on these threads only because some members continue to harbor grudges that get in the way of serving the op and the forum. Like I said, I did not insert the first insult into this thread. It would be very easy for these threads to not decend into blood baths. But not asking a question to get clarification isn't what is required for that to happen." You are doing the choosing here, james. You are choosing to not come up with a solution which might satsify everyone and maintain some semblance of peace on this forum. You want these rules, "If you intend to continue playing the blame game insisting everything is my fault, just say, 'James, as always, I choose option 3'." That is not a solution but you also refuse to understand that. That is an ultimatum; "Jan behave or I will blow up more threads." "Jan you are to blame for everything and I wash my hands of all responsibility when I blow up the next thread." That is no more "working with" someone than it is actually saying, "screw you! I'm going to do what I want to do and you better watch your back". "You won't know till try, will you?" Wonderful demonstration of working with someone, james. Simply wonderful. "I already know james will have childish, bombastic reply to this post. He's so predictable." . |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1094 Registered: Dec-06 | Jan is popular here in this audio section of eCoustics. No one else in any audio forum anywhere likes him. Who cares?!! Maybe you didn't notice James, but this is eCoustics. I don't care what happened elsewhere. Like I said earlier, this forum was fine until you and Plymouth showed up. Jan was posting here for at least 7 years. And you admitted that he is popular. So after 7 years of posting here he is still popular and respected. Then you two ride in and the problems begin. What does that tell you? With practically no history here, you two ride in and think you guys can police the forum. Who is the offensive one? Why do you want to ruin it for the regulars here? You know, every forum is different. Most newcomers to a forum do not understand the dynamics of all the personalities involved. So rather than ride in with guns a blazing, they will be respectful and see how things operate, then slowly they integrate. You two haven't done that at all. And I read that Adcom thread. Seems like Jan was the one asking the most pertinent questions. He was a little direct, and those with a thin skin cannot handle that. The OP did not seem to be offended. So what does Plymouth's link prove? Absolutely nothing. It says more about the other posters holding a grudge than anything else. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1660 Registered: Oct-10 | Jan, you and your followers are hopeless and I have better things to do with my weekend than argue with your worthless butt. Try pulling your head out of your rect*m Jan! Later! |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1096 Registered: Dec-06 | Well, wasn't that a compelling argument? Let's tally this up again: Jan - 7 years and possibly the most knowledgeable and helpful poster on the forum, the forum is pretty strong most of that time James - 9 months and... ... ... Exactly why is it a mystery that Jan has support? Do you really expect those of us who have discussed audio with Jan for years to just throw him under the bus and support your side? If you do, you are nuts!! And all because he can be somewhat direct? Big deal! Like Art said, Jan has caused a stir on occasion, but posters here find their niche (that's not a dog Plymouth, that means to find your place). I don't think any of us would dare challenge Jan on the technical aspects of audio among other things. That isn't our place, and I dare say it isn't yours either. So if you decide to do it you better realize you are entering the dragon's den and you better come armed with the knowledge that you need. Most of us are here to read and discuss audio, and hopefully learn a little in the process from those who have knowledge to pass on. Not to get into or read petty arguments like this is junior high all over again. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16519 Registered: Jan-08 | LOL! This forum is took by few terrorist! Most of complaint are against Jan this poor bad mouthed! I cleaned the sat forum of troublemaker then I can do it here! Learn how to talk to poeples and come back! Ho! Each posts of Jan contain insults instead of one insult from me on this thread! Anyway Chris is Jan trying to convince that he is the best! Keep your eyes close! |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 559 Registered: Mar-04 | What is the sat forum ? |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16520 Registered: Jan-08 | unbridled id This is the jungle of eCoustics! The proof that Chris is >>>>Jan Look the typo(font) of Chris post number 1394 above exactly same as Jan post number 1642! Hyprocrite you said! My poor Jan you are pooned! Is that Dan L is Jan??? |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1097 Registered: Dec-06 | What's the typo? I put both posts into Word and it does not find the same spelling mistake in each. If you throw out an accusation Plymouth, the least you can do is back up your claims with evidence. You said the forum is being taken over by terrorists. There are 5 people on one side in this thread (Jan, Nick, Art, Chris, myself) and two on the other (James and you). The first five have posted here for years. There are others here who have not said anything in this thread but also get along with Jan. Plymouth, you kept out of Home Audio until recently, and James didn't even show up until late 2010. Now you guys want to dictate to the long time regulars how things are going to work. Exactly who are the terrorists here, and which group just want to discuss audio? So first Chris is Jan, and now I am Jan? Why? Because we disagree with you? Why don't you focus on the points we are making, rather than throw out a bunch of baseless accusations? Arrrrggh, what's the point. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16523 Registered: Jan-08 | LOL! I mean Font Character! Same sh1t as for Jan! Try again Jan! |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1395 Registered: Jul-07 | Anyone that argues with them is now going to referred to as "Jan" Dan. Hey, wait.....Jan and Dan are pretty close aren't they ? They rhyme and everything. They must be the same person. And I'm OBVIOUSLY Jan, since we use the same font on a post. Wait a minute, maybe we're all Jan, and Jan just uses different usernames so that there is someone to talk to. Plymouth is probably Jan too, just so Jan has someone to bicker with. No wonder Plymouth figured it out, since HE'S JAN!! And James, why sure, he's Jan too. We're all Jan!! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16527 Registered: Jan-08 | Poor idiot! |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1665 Registered: Oct-10 | No Plym, I think Chris is on to something here, which if course raises the question: Which one of us is the real Jan? It can't be Jan, that would be too obvious! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16531 Registered: Jan-08 | Super A guy using many nicks to convince the others that he is the best is not too much high in my scale! When I asked him few questions about Nova Scotia he had never replied, now I know why! |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1668 Registered: Oct-10 | Plym, I don't think Chris, Dan or anyone other than Jan is Jan. I just don't buy that idea. Also Plym, I think calling other ops "terrorists" is going too far. Just take it easy buddy, this'll all workout eventually. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 16534 Registered: Jan-08 | Super I don't know for Dan L but for Chris, I'm sure! |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1670 Registered: Oct-10 | No Plym, I really don't think any ops here in audio are playing that sort of game. Please don't keep on with that accusation. I don't appreciate it when Jan accuses me of being 1cc from sp and I don't appreciate it when you accuse other members of being Jan. So please give that a rest okay? Thank you. |
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