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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4748 Registered: Feb-07 | What this forum needs is some sort of poll functionality (CAM has it... hint, hint). I really like integrated amps. So much, in fact, I'd like to try out another one. Which would you buy? (a) Naim XS (b) Bryston B60R © Cambridge Audio 840A (d) Creek Destiny (e) Classe CA-151 (f) Other (please specify!) I know Art will have some input on this one since he shares my affinity to integrateds. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1384 Registered: Oct-10 | F: McIntosh. They make 100 wpc integrated. If it sounds as good as their stand alone power amps, I'd go for it! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4749 Registered: Feb-07 | Been there, done that SJ. Twice. Next! |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1385 Registered: Oct-10 | So you don't like Mac Dave? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4750 Registered: Feb-07 | Its not that I don't like it. I had the MA6300 (entry level integrated) and Nuck's MA 6900 (not at all entry level). I think Mac is extremely overpriced for what you get. In my opinion, of course. The Mac name adds 1k to the price, then the blue meters add at least another 1k. The Mac sound is very smooth, maybe a little too smooth, and with both amps I found I had to really turn them up LOUD for them to start being exciting. My CA 840A (regret selling it actually) was actually more fun to listen to. My Stingray, at half the price of the 6900, absolutely smashed the 6900. I don't want to the tubes route again at this time, though. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1387 Registered: Oct-10 | Yeah, come to think of it, the salesman did have to crank the Mac a bit. Most tube amp owners that I know seem to spend a little to much time and money maintaing them. I got hear a B & K amp that sounded real good at low, moderate and high volumes. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4751 Registered: Feb-07 | I would say that 80% of my listening is down at low or moderate. I can't be blasting it when the kids are in bed, and I don't want to be blasting it when the kids are in the room. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1388 Registered: Oct-10 | I should add that the b & k was a 200 wpc power amp. Teamed up with their matching pre, makes a low profile set up that most integrated fans would probably enjoy. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3480 Registered: Jun-07 | David - The NAIM XS is incredible. Have heard it twice now. On top of that I think the Bryston B60R is amazing as well just in a different way. I havnt heard the Classe amp but have heard the Creek Destiny and remember liking it quit a bit. Never heard any of those amps in one system in the same room/setting but I think my top two picks personally in that list would be the Naim and Bryston of course. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4752 Registered: Feb-07 | Cool. Thanks buddy. Big difference between the older B60 and B60 SST? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14400 Registered: Feb-05 | What are the speakers again, David... Sure like the Naim XS and would love to hear your feedback on the Destiny. Another one of interest is one of the recent offerings from Luxman...just sayin'! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4412 Registered: May-05 | You know which one is my favorite I really like the Nait XS. If I needed a new intergated, the Nait XS would be the one to beat. At the end of the day, dollar for dollar, I like Bryston a bit more. It's a bit different than Naim, but it's got the groove that Naim does IMO. There's an appreciable difference between the non-SST and SST B60. All else being equal, I wouldn't pay a huge premium for the SST. I had mine upgraded to SST for $125. I think the B60 and Nait XS are a good bit better than the rest you mentioned. Haven't heard Luxman, so no comment. LFD looks very interesting too. No idea how the second market is for them. I haven't heard one, but I think it's touted as an alternative to Naim. The best sounding integrated may not sound best in your system. Depends on the demand your speakers and room are placing on it. Will a B60 be powerful enough for the long haul? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14403 Registered: Feb-05 | The LFD is a great amp but for some reason sounds a lot better with some speakers than others. If you had the scratch I would have the Sonneteer Orton on the short list. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1318 Registered: Jul-07 | I'd add.... Blue Circle DAR or FtTH , or used NSCS. Sugden A21 Red Wine Audio 30.2 LFPV (of course) I know you said no tube amps (some of the above are hybrids) but I also have to suggest the Trafomatic Audio Experience One. Outstanding amp.....and really, only 5 tubes. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4754 Registered: Feb-07 | Cool. Thanks guys. I'm still using the Totem Sttafs, likely will be for a long time to come. The B60 is definitely on my short list, but to answer your question Stu, I wonder if it will have the juice I want in the long run. My Rega Elicit is 82 watts on paper, but the only weakness I find with it is that I find it runs out of steam very quickly when you really push it. The reason I added the 840A on the list is, having owned one, it really punches above its weight. In fact, it's probably the best SS integrated I've owned. I like to pick one up and put it head to head against the Rega. It sure doesn't have the snob factor of other amps, but boy does it rock. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1396 Registered: Oct-10 | Ever consider a Rotel Dave? I've heard good things about them. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1397 Registered: Oct-10 | I agree about the Mac name and blue meters adding to the price of Mac amps. I like the fact that Mac does not cheap out on anything and that they use autoformers, but the question of how much a Mac amp is really worth remains. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3482 Registered: Jun-07 | I agree with David about MAC. Although giving the right setting it can sound good I think Its well overpriced. I guess based on Amp technology the argument remains that all high end stuff can be called overpriced, but except for the one time at Jamies house where I thought his MACs sounded nice I have never been wowed by the MAC house sound at all. I have heard high end MAC gear a few times now in the last few months and thought gear costing less than half easily topped it. To add, everyone on this forum knows I have never been a fan of Rotel. Just a personal preference. But their latest offerings are just down right awful. Their class D stuff brings the always bright Rotel sound but now adds a thinning layer to the music that just makes it sound dull, lifeless and just plan horrific. I rather own a Kenwood receiver from XS Cargo than what Rotel has on the market right now. Just simply my strong personal opinion. I agree with Stu that the Bryston and Naim stand out in the list. Although Classe do make really nice gear I am just not very familiar with their stuff. One brand I would add David is Sim Audio. The Hi Fi shop just down the road from where I work carries Sim Audio as their main amp and source with Totem speakers. I got to listen to an I-3 amp cdp combo on the little Totem Mites and boy did it perform well. The great thing about your Staffs is that they are a great combo with all three Naim, Bryston and Sim Audio brands. As far as the B60 being better at SST level I am sure it is. I dont think by the same margin as their amps which going from NRB to SST2 is a huge step up. Don't forget too the latest B60r has the SST2 design which apparently brings an even smoother more refined sound over the SST. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3483 Registered: Jun-07 | I also havnt had a lot of time spent with the 840A either. When I did hear it once at my own dealers it was in a bad setup so I can not pass judgement on it, although I fully trust yours so its probably a pure winner in its class indeed. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4755 Registered: Feb-07 | I've had a few Rotel pieces SJ. I would have to agree with Nick's assessment of Rotel, on top of that, you have to be very, very careful what speakers you strap to a Rotel. Nick, Sim is a good call. I forgot about that. How would you describe the sound? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14413 Registered: Feb-05 | "The reason I added the 840A on the list is, having owned one, it really punches above its weight. In fact, it's probably the best SS integrated I've owned. I like to pick one up and put it head to head against the Rega. It sure doesn't have the snob factor of other amps, but boy does it rock." It's strange but true. Sometimes pieces surprise the heck out of ya. Certainly an all NAD setup has no snob appeal at all, but I'm finding that with the high end cables I'm using and Harbeth speakers with a baby REL sub, I'm getting true high end performance. It's actually as enjoyable as any setup I've owned. Heck I've even received emails pitying me and my NAD setup and asking if I'd like to buy some of their aged, has-been (and wasn't that good when "it was") gear as they felt it was better than what I have. I assured them that I am fine as-is! Honestly I was listening to both CD's and vinyl last night and couldn't believe the performance I was getting from my setup.. Sometimes more expensive simply means more esoteric and targeted for an audience after a specific sound. Personally I'm finding what I have wholly satisfying...that doesn't mean that I won't upgrade but it does mean that when I do I'll leave some of my prejudices at the door. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4756 Registered: Feb-07 | Well said Art. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3486 Registered: Jun-07 | Well said indeed Art. Badges and Prices don't mean a thing anymore. I have always been a supporter of NAD AVR units as to me they are simply one of the best sounding home theater receivers out there. NAD however for some time were making lackluster 2 channel gear at best. The 272 amp was ok for the money but was grainy and dull/slow and that characteristic seemed to fall out through their two channel lineup. Not anymore. Their latest offerings are fantastic. It would appear they have a new manufacturing plant and their new gear is sounding far better than ever. At any price point their new integrated amps are great. It is a shame that any snob factor they ever had was erased with a few years of lackluster product. I would gladly own a 326bee as its as good as anything on the market anywhere remotely close to its price range. The 565 CDP is great too especially since you get a built in outbound DAC as well. David - The Sim Audio sound is quit similar to Bryston. Perhaps a bit more laid back and slightly warmer. Both are on equal playing field. The Sim Audio gear is a super amazing match with Totem. I really enjoyed everything on display with Sim/Totem at the Lindens here in Kingston. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4413 Registered: May-05 | Sim and Totem have a great synergy together. A now defunct dealer in my hometown carried both. That's where I really understood what Totem was truly all about. Sim is a bit softer, more polite, and more laid back sounding than Bryston. I like Bryston better, but it's really not a big difference between the two. Them there Sttafs aren't that easy to drive. If the Elicit was a touch short on power, I'd wager the B60 and Nait XS won't cut it over the long haul either. Not sure Simaudio really has an integrated that's more powerful. Maybe the top model, but that's several times the cost. Which all brings me to my suggestion to keep an eye out for... Bryston B100. If I recall correctly, you said you regretted getting rid of the BP-20 and Power Pacs. The B100 will give you that and a little more IMO. Nick - There's no SST2 for the integrateds. The SST2 upgrades to the 2B SST2 were minimal and don't apply to the B100 for some reason James Tanner explained. The SST2 upgrades are most noticeable on the 4B and up, according to him. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3489 Registered: Jun-07 | GOod to know Stu. IT appeared that the B60 got a bit of a new look when or around the time the sst2 stuff came out. THey probably just put bigger knobs on it.lol Do you think 60 watts of Bryston power 60 watts of Rega power? Or does the number stamp stick. Rega seems to be pretty honest with ratings. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4757 Registered: Feb-07 | I think the 82 watts of power in the Rega Elicit is pretty honest. What I think it maybe lacks is the huge array capacitors found in some other amps, and maybe why it runs out of headroom quickly. I may need to step up my game and get a B100. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4758 Registered: Feb-07 | Here's another option: http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/362236 I know a lot of people dislike Class D, but it may be worthy of a look. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4759 Registered: Feb-07 | Balanced inputs are a definite plus, with my new BDA-1. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15693 Registered: Dec-04 | Mac is not a "first watt" amp, and Dave uses under 2 most of the time. At present, Dave needs to think small, and not letting his lovely tipsy wife from goosing the volume. Rotel sucks without paradigm speakers. You fukc a tube amp, you marry a Cambridge. Grab a B60, Dave to marry it all up. At least until you change your mind. 3...2....1 |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4761 Registered: Feb-07 | I never change my mind. hahahahaaaa |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4414 Registered: May-05 | My B60 sounds very good at low volumes. However, I'm not using Sttafs, so no idea if you'll get the same results. If you don't need to jockey the throttle, the B60 may be enough. I've never clipped mine, and I did try to get Angel of Death as loud as I heard it live back in '91. I turned it down before I got evicted. My wife claimed to hear it when she was at the front door to the house. I was in the attic, which is 3 floors away. But again, I'm not running Sttafs. Not that I think they're absurdly difficult; I just haven't heard them at the end of a B60. What's the point in playing it safe anyway? Get a B100. You've heard W4S's house sound. Is it still there? Do you miss it?That should give a hint as to how long you'll keep it around. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3490 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL whats up Nuck where the f#$ck have you been? The B100sst is balls to the walls.lol David - Fack Wired for Sound. Been there done that. haha |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15694 Registered: Dec-04 | Lurking in the weeds. I gotta say, as a stab in the dark, go with the Bryston, but very price dependant on the 100 over the 60, for Dave, right now. A big amp is cool, but let's remember that this application is in a brand new SMALL, irreguarly shaped (yet well treated in build) room. It's either a B60 or a Tuber. Try the Manley in there first, like I said 6 months ago |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4762 Registered: Feb-07 | Nuck, the Manley is somewhere in New Mexico, or Arizona. OK, so we have one vote against W4S, lol. This is getting complicated. Maybe I can't find what I want in an integrated without dropping 4k. Dammit. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3492 Registered: Jun-07 | I personally think the B60 or NAIM would do just fine David. 60 watts of Bryston power isn't your typical 60 watts IMO. Same goes with NAIM. Buy used as usual and if it doesnt work out you wont lose your shirt over it. Worth a try I would say. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4763 Registered: Feb-07 | Buying used is definitely the way to go Nick. I've actually made money on more than a few pieces of used gear, lol. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3493 Registered: Jun-07 | lol That is awesome. I would say when your into a Brand like Bryston you could always easily turn the B60 around for at least what you payed if not more if it can't handle the Staafs. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3494 Registered: Jun-07 | Before you pull the trigger email the local guy here in Kingston you got the Rega from. www.highendaudioexchange.ca and tell him you want a B60 (if that is what you decide) and he will get you a used one for a good deal. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4764 Registered: Feb-07 | Yeah, he's a cool dude. He always has good sh!t for sale, and offers free shipping for past customers. He loves his Bryston stuff, huh? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15695 Registered: Dec-04 | You have not heard the room yet, what will you compare to? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4765 Registered: Feb-07 | The room right now is full of echo.... echo echo echo echo e |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4415 Registered: May-05 | How big is the new room? I'd say take your time and get everything situated. Unless of course you com across a deal you can't refuse. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4766 Registered: Feb-07 | That's probably good advice Stu. I think Nuck has said that about 2 dozen times. The new room is 10x13, actually a little bigger than my current room, but with less obstacles (like Barbie castles and doll houses - at least for now). But, much, much better designed and appropriately dampened. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1402 Registered: Oct-10 | "I know a lot of people dislike class D, but it worthy of a look." Certainly Dave! You don't know what you'll like till you try it. One class D fan claims that it's like tubes with tighter bass. A tube fan replied with "Class D sucks!" I would give it a test drive myself. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1319 Registered: Jul-07 | You can't listen to one Class D amp and judge them all, any more than you can judge all tube amps after listening to one. My amp uses Class D and you won't find many people that have listened to it that a) don't love it and b) even recognize that it is. Nick's T-amp project is Class D and even in that price category it seems to sound very good. So, my advice would be to not exclude these amps from your list just because of any preconceptions of Class D. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1403 Registered: Oct-10 | Exactly Chris! I think the tube fan I am refering to only tried one class D amp. |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1029 Registered: Dec-06 | I'm biased, but I love my Exposure amp. I've changed a lot of things over the last couple of years, but I have not changed the amp. if you can get one to try out you might be surprised. The Sttafs are supposed to have a rich, lush sound if I'm not mistaken. Probably not unlike my Castles, though I don't think they overdo the lushness at all. The 2010s2 loves my speakers and vice-versa. When I had the Simaudio i-1 in place it was a little too laid back. The Exposure is a shot of energy by comparison. Clear, detailed, lots of drive and pace. For $1,400 I'd wager it is one of the best values out there. Not much of a looker though, unless you like the simplicity, which I do. Wish the knobs had a bit more resistance and felt more substantial, but that is my only complaint. Not sure if the 75 watts are enough to drive your Totems, Dave. FWIW, it has had zero issue driving the speakers I've used (all likely are an average load). One thing to note is that you need to have your speaker cable terminated with banana plugs on the amp end if you are using a 2010s2. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4768 Registered: Feb-07 | Exposure is another brand I've been curious about. For the record, as well, the Sttafs are quite easy to drive (one of the easiest of the Totem line). I've driven them to punishing levels with a 10 watt SET amp! I'd be willing to give Class D a go too. Sure, why not. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14417 Registered: Feb-05 | Try it all, David! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4769 Registered: Feb-07 | I have been faithfully, obsessively doing that for more than a few years now Art! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14420 Registered: Feb-05 | LOL!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3495 Registered: Jun-07 | lol Chris is right, I have heard a few class D amps cheap and expensive sound very good. I think Class D technology was tarnished by a few mainstream companies *cough* *cough* *rotel* switching over to class D technology and doing a horrible job of it. Always wanted to hear Exposure. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16193 Registered: May-04 | . Amplifier "sound" is no different than recorded sound or any other industrial design work. While you must begin with good parts, it's not really the individual parts that matter. Its how you put them together and the implementation of smart ideas rather than cheap ideas. If a designer is willing to invest the time, effort and financial resources into a proejct, most technologies can be made into a very acceptable final product. If the designer is only interested in how cheaply the final product comes in - class D is pretty cheap to build and, importantly, repair and, more importantly, pretty cheap to ship across oceans just as single transformer, direct coupled solid state was cheap compared to (three) transformer coupled tube amps in the 1960's - then any technology can be made inferior. The Mass Market guys certainly proved that with their attempts at "psuedo" class A amplifiers back in the 1980-90's. Crap is still crap no matter what name you stick on it when you don't set off with the intention of designing something more than crap. As JA commented when Stereophile reviewed the current version of the now fifty year old McIntosh MC275 with its basic circuitry intact from the 1960's, "Good audio engineering is timeless." http://forum.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-mc275-power-amplifier-measurements . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4418 Registered: May-05 | I agree Jan. I've said a ton to times - it's not the technology, it's the implementation. There are some excellent class D amps out there. Edge and BelCanto immediately come to mind. Didn't know Vinnie at Red Wine uses class D. I'll add them to the list. A great design is a great design no matter how old it is. My father's '71 Mercedes 280SL is a great example. H's been driving around an '84 Mercedes 240D around for the past few years due to fuel costs. Being a mechanic, he claims that car is impossible to kill. To quote my local Naim dealer when discussing old Nait's - Ever seen a Porsche that's too old? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16195 Registered: May-04 | . "Ever seen a Porsche that's too old?" Phhhhhft!!! Mere teenagers when I comes to design! http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ferrari-history1.htm Ya gotta love them ol' time racers in their open top cars and leather crash helmets sliding around a curve on a dirt track at an astounding 60 mph! Testosterone, anyone? . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15696 Registered: Dec-04 | I had a 914 that was too old. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16196 Registered: May-04 | . 914's were too old when they were new. . |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1406 Registered: Oct-10 | Anyone wanna hear something really great? I'm talkin' serious sound quality here! How 'bout 3 cell phones playing 3 different songs at the same time all at max volume? My ears were killing me. I was half a millimeter away from throwing the phones out the car window. One by itself is bad enough! Wife & son promised never to that again. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4419 Registered: May-05 | I love the 914. You guys have some issues A family friend had one that I almost bought. Had my old man not been a pita at the time and lended me a bay in the back of the garage that's full of junk, I'd have bought it and overhauled it. That was 15 years ago. I'm still bitter about it. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14425 Registered: Feb-05 | "Anyone wanna hear something really great? I'm talkin' serious sound quality here! How 'bout 3 cell phones playing 3 different songs at the same time all at max volume? My ears were killing me. I was half a millimeter away from throwing the phones out the car window. One by itself is bad enough! Wife & son promised never to that again." Folks who know me know that I would have stopped and let 'em out. They would have got the drift in a hurry or wore out their shoes tryin'. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 2340 Registered: Oct-07 | I think the Porsche 914 was sold in Europe and many other places as an Audi. Real Porsche guys avert there eyes...... That is NOT to say the 6cyl was not a blast. The stock steel wheels fit the VW Beetle of the same vintage. I went to the Porsch dealer and bought all they'd sell me for <10$ each and sold 'em for 15$. Every 914 you ever saw had optional or aftermarket alloys. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4420 Registered: May-05 | The 914 was available in Europe as a VW. It was a joint venture Karmann Ghia. My friend's was a 914-4. It was a lot of fun the two times I drove it. Not a fast top speed car, but it had go-cart like handling and acceleration. It could weave in and out of traffic like nothing I've ever driven. Winding roads were a blast. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1408 Registered: Oct-10 | Art, I wasn't driving or that would've been my approach. Anyway, the idea of $800 worth of phones getting thrown out into the woods worked just as well. |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1043 Registered: Dec-06 | A Creek Evolution 5350 is another one worth considering. The latest iteration came out maybe a year ago and I think it's been billed as the most powerful integrated that Creek has ever made. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3508 Registered: Jun-07 | http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/648945186-yba_integre_dt_integrated_ampli fier/ Local guy here David. Wicked amp. BOOOIINNNGGGGGG Theres a SimAudio amp on HighEndAudioExchange for 750. double BOIINNG |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4435 Registered: May-05 | Ask Art about the YBA integrated. He had a Complete integrated if I'm not mistaking. Get out and hear some gear David. Sometimes something that you didn't expect to hearand/or wasn't discussed much comes along and knocks your socks off. Audio Physic did that for me. |
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New member Username: Jason_kPost Number: 7 Registered: May-11 | how about the new harman kardon integrated amp? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14455 Registered: Feb-05 | I had the Complete CD player. It sounded very nice and actually as good as the Apollo however it didn't quite navigate all of my CD's and had a bit of distortion on some of them. I've listened to the Complete integrated on a number of occasions and it's OK. I prefer Sim and all of the other usual suspects. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1430 Registered: Oct-10 | Check these out Dave! Yeah, the 1st two and some others are tube, but there are ss amps as well. http://www.stereophile.com/category/integrated-amp-reviews |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4774 Registered: Feb-07 | Been trying out a couple of integrateds this week courtesy of my dealer. Just making supper now, but will report back! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4775 Registered: Feb-07 | OK, so I tried out a few amps this. First of all, I broke my own rule, and tried out a tube amp. What a mistake... I grabbed a Yaqin MS-300C cheap from a dealer on ebay. Funny thing is that I've owned this amp before - the rebranded A534 from Grant Fidelity, and that was a surprisingly good sounding amp! 10 watts of pure Class A SET. Not sure what was wrong with this one, but it was complete and utter sh!t. Like beyond bad - it's actually laughable how terrible it was. There was no soundstage, and zero imaging. Vocals were all in one speaker, cymbals in the other, and the rest was just a goddam mess. On top of that, the right channel was at least 2db louder than the left. So back it went. I decided not to deal with internet crap for a bit, so I went to my local dealer and he gave me an Arcam A18 to take home for the weekend. This was actually not a bad amp at all. I compared it to memory with the Rega Elicit, and even though it was only 50 watts compared to the Rega's 80, it smashed the Rega at high volumes. The Rega was kinda weird in that it needed to be turned up loud to come to life, but when you turned it up too loud, I just gave and ran out of steam (I talked to Frank about this and he found the same thing). No matter how hard I pushed the Arcam it never compressed or lost it's dynamics. The only criticism I could with the Arcam was that it lacked attack and sustain on cymbal crashes. That was quite noticeable. I brought that back today and my dealer gave me an in the box YBA 202 to take home. At first I kinda of laughed at it, cause of the weird form factor. It looks more like a console game than an amp, but when I picked it up I surprised at the weight of it. Wow! This is really, really good. Like surprisingly good. I haven't had a chance to turn it up yet like I did with the Arcam, but so far it's miles ahead of the Arcam in musicality, or any other amp I've had lately. It's warm, punchy, smooth and completely balanced. Even at low volumes it spanks my Sttafs woofers in the nicest way possible. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3512 Registered: Jun-07 | I almost bought that YBA amp Dave. I never got to hear it, but my dealers claims its very good. Your description on your Rega amp pretty much is how my experience with every Rega amp I have ever heard went down. Dull at low volumes and thin/lifeless and high volumes. The Mira is down right terrible IMO. Arcam is nice stuff but a bit too laid back for my liking. I am really glad you get to hear the YBA stuff. Very good stuff. P.S. What the Fu#!k is a Yaqin? LOL |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4776 Registered: Feb-07 | Listening to the YBA right now. It's very laid back, but the bass control is crazy good. This is just the entry level amp in their line. I'd like to hear something higher up the line for sure. Yaqin is chi-fi. Haha. Just brutal. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4447 Registered: May-05 | I wouldn't call the Mira downright terrible, Nick. I think it's a great amp for the money, but there's better out there. I've heard the Elicit a few times. Just can't warm up to it. Maybe what you're saying is why. Didn't really analyze it, just knew it wasn't my cup of tea after a good 20 minutes of so. Glad you're digging the YBA. Are you a laid-back and warm seeking guy? Your past history doesn't indicate that IMO. Live with it for a while before making a decision. Have you heard the Nait XS and/or SuperNait? The Creek stuff is very good too, but I think they moved production to China. Combine that with Roy Hall's attitude towards customers who aren't happy with their stuff breaking, and I'd stay away. That's just me though. If you've got a Naim guy around, you should track down their integrateds. Have you heard Nick's Nait? The XS and SuperNait take the goodness up several steps IMO. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4448 Registered: May-05 | Here's a shot in the dark - BAT 300x. Without the tube preamp options, you may be able to find one second hand for a decent price. Great sounding amp that may combine a few traits you're looking for. If I describe their sound, you may immediately dismiss it. You may dismiss it after a few seconds because it sounds similar to what you've sold off. But it does a lot of things you seem to be looking for too. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3514 Registered: Jun-07 | Could never get my head around the Mira Stu. Downright awful was probably pretty harsh though.lol. I take it Back! No I dont! ahhh ok I do.lol I love my little 5i. Having heard the XS and SuperNait a few times now I would say I would still stick to my 5i over the SuperNait. Especially for the price. I definitely think the XS brings what the 5i does up a few notches for sure though. If I were to ever upgrade my amp down the road the XS is on the very very top of the short list. Supernait? ahhh not for me. It sounds great dont get me wrong just didnt think it bested even the 5i. Sounds like a 5i in a fancier box with a DAC integrated. I can see the market for it though. The XS is just wicked awesome. Best sounding integrated they have IMO. I have heard really good things about the BAT stuff. The guy you bought the Rega off of David has/had some of it. Never heard myself but a good recommendation by Stu for sure. You should borrow my NAIM for a few weeks or however long it takes man. |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1057 Registered: Dec-06 | Interesting comments about the Arcam, Dave. Given your criticism of lack of attack, perhaps the greater power on tap in the A28 or A38 would fix that. Any other amps on the list? How about the Sugden Mystro? |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1322 Registered: Jul-07 | Dave, I'm serious about the Blue Circle gear man. I think you'd really dig it. Ballsy, punchy, very musical, organic.....and extremely well made. If you see a deal on one I'd highly recommend them. I've only heard two of the integrated amps....none of the big gear.....but they were both excellent. If I hadn't purchased my amp, a Blue Circle integrated was what I likely would have ended up with. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4777 Registered: Feb-07 | LOL Stu... I'm not a laid back and warm kind of guy, but I don't mind if my music is sometimes. Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Lots of ideas I would have never even considered. I never even would have considered YBA had my dealer not tossed my way. Naim is definitely still on my radar, as is the Bryston B60. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1323 Registered: Jul-07 | http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/648943050-the_blue_circle_dar_a_high_qual ity_hybrid_integrated/ Not sure whether it is still there or not..... |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3516 Registered: Jun-07 | Blue Circle make great stuff. Never heard it though. Speaking of the Nait XS. One just came up on CAM, almost new it appears. http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/648946014-naim_nait_xs_pristine_condition _mint/ |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4783 Registered: Feb-07 | I guess an update is due. As usual, I took sorta a left turn and tried something completely different. I picked up a used a W4S ST-500 from Agon on a whim one day. I've had it now since Friday and have listened to it quite bit this weekend. I really like this amp. This is my first try at at Class D amp, and my impression of Class D (after listening to Bel Cantos) has always "harsh". This amp is completely different. In fact, it sounds a lot like the W4S DACs - very laid back and warm sounding. The bass is astounding; so much that I'm convinced that there's a sub in the room somewhere. The mids are super creamy smooth, but with just enough attack for the kind of music I like. The only thing I might say about it in a bad way is that the highs are a little subdued. It's not smashing bright (which is a good thing to most people). In fact, the amp is so warm/laid back that I actually found my Sttafs were not a good match for it. I dragged my MA RS6s down and the amp really came alive. I had read a couple of reviews that suggested to not mate polite speakers with this amp, but course I generally think reviews are full of shite. Right now the very obvious weak link in my system is a cheapassed Rotel integrated I'm using as a pre-amp. I think with a proper pre-amp this combo would rock. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3519 Registered: Jun-07 | Sweet stuff! You hunting down a pre amp David? I am not sure if you could live with an amp where you could not use your Sttafs man.lol. Thoughts? Too early? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4784 Registered: Feb-07 | Yeah, I'm hunting for half decent pre-amp now. Obviously the Bryston BP-25 is on the short list. I would prefer to have balanced connections as well, since both the BDA-1 and ST-500 are fully balanced. A remote is also a must. I've lived without a remote before and it made life nasty and brutish. Kicking the tires on a Classe CD-35. Anyone ever played with one? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4785 Registered: Feb-07 | Correction - CP-35 |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4786 Registered: Feb-07 | I've been listening to the W4S/RS6 combo a lot over the last 2 days. I gotta say this is the first time the RS6 have ever beat out the Sttafs. With the RS6 my system sounds robust, snappy, toe-tapping fun to listen to. Very surprised. Just for fun I was turning it up loud tonight. Like stupidly loud, and the amp never got compressed, never got congested and closed in sounding like all the integrateds I've tried. Wow. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3520 Registered: Jun-07 | POWER baby!! lol. The techs at Bryston always warned me about dropping to a lower wattage. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4787 Registered: Feb-07 | Why's that bud? Just cause you get used to certain octane level from your gear? I've always found watts kinda relative. My 40 watt Stingray would go crazy loud. But this amp... this is louder and with more bass than my Bryston mono-blocks, which is remarkable. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1542 Registered: Oct-10 | Sounds like you discovered a whole new level of satisfaction Dave! Kudos bro! |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1076 Registered: Dec-06 | Congrats, Dave. So the RS6 is a better match with this amp. I guess the question is, does it sound better than the Sttafs did with amps like your old Stingray, the Elicit, etc.? I really liked my old RS5. Your description of the RS6 is more or less how I'd describe the RS5. If only it wasn't for that darned treble. I like how the RX series has toned the highs down a bit. If they would just make an RX5 I'd consider buying a pair. I think the RX6 is probably too much speaker for my small room. I really like the two-driver small floorstander design (kind of like your Sttafs). |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4788 Registered: Feb-07 | Hey Dan, Yeah, the high end on the RS line can be pretty hot, but with this amp it almost sounds like they were designed to be paired together. I don't find the RS6 to be too much at all in my little room (maybe 12x14). I was running a sub before when I had the Elicit/Sttaf combo, but with this setup I don't need a sub at all. I think with the right combo this may be a winning combo. Or next week I could be bored with the whole thing and move on. At least I know myself well enough to be realistic. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1337 Registered: Jul-07 | You'll figure it out Dave. At some point you'll hear something and know "that's it". Until you do, you're having lots of fun. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3521 Registered: Jun-07 | Not too sure why David. Talked to two techs and both said dropping down in wattage is never a good idea when we were discussing smaller amps/integrates in their lineup. Probably because of speaker matching possibilities I am guessing. Gobs of power does mean that extra headroom at sheer dynamic moments of the music. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4789 Registered: Feb-07 | Yeah, that makes sense Nick. I gotta admit it really does open up a world of possibility having an amp now that cranks out so much power. When I was into the whole tube thing I was fairly limited with what speakers I was willing to try out. |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1078 Registered: Dec-06 | You'll figure it out Dave. At some point you'll hear something and know "that's it". Until you do, you're having lots of fun. I can relate. It can be frustrating but at the same time fun. As long as you stick to the used market or downgrade (in terms of price) it won't get too costly. I'm pretty happy now, but still waiting for my "that's it" moment. I think synergy is one factor, but you can have a synergistic system and the sound still not right if you don't like the overall balance, tone, or sense of musicality. Which is why a system might sound like it's doing everything right, but at the same time is missing that certain magic that puts it over the top. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16319 Registered: May-04 | . Priorities, gentlemen, establish them and listen for them. Know them when you hear them and when you do not. Synergy is your own and no one else's view of music. Know what is a "can't live without it" and what is a "I can wait until I can afford it" priority. There are the "Ahah!" moments when new ideas are found in the presentation of music but they come with extremely slow progress when you don't have those priorities to guide you and are still moments you're likely to remember even when you have those priorities tied down tight. When they appear, file them away and add them to your short list of priorities. I would say almost every one of those revelations (good and bad) of, "that's what I should be hearing", or, "OK, that allows just that one bit more of transparency into the performer's attitudes and intent", which I have encountered over the last thirty or more years has been fairly recognizable within the first few minutes of listening. For example, with the Glow amp, there were things which were instantly wrong no matter what else I heard that was unlike my reference gear. No amount of break in or swapping of systems, even moving it up to Mike Wodek's house, changed those basic elements that said to me, "This is not the amp I want". But you need the reference point to begin with, that is where your own personal sense of synergy exists. Don't trust a review of a component or speaker unless you understand exactly which priorities the reviewer has set down as unnecessary, fungible or unaware of at this time. I've suggested in a previous thread that you can find a positive review of just about any half way decent component. That really is the reviewer's job, to find those things the component does well and to comment on how they have or have not brought new insight to, dare I say it, the music. Not to how another component sounds in comparison or in combination with but to what impact the new component has on the music and your connection to it. If you have no idea what priorites "Joe; St. Louis, Mo." has when you read his comments on Audiogon or a manufacturer's webpage, then don't even consider that to be a relevant review. If you wonder which priorities a designer had when completing a component for sale, then chances are that's not the component for you (the Glow amp). And, above all else, listen to the music reproduced by any component whenever you can before you part with cash. "When I was into the whole tube thing I was fairly limited with what speakers I was willing to try out." Yes, but you knew that going in, didn't you? Not trying to say tubes are the only device you should use but you should be aware of the basic "sound" of MOSFET's and bipolars and certain tubes and what expectations they introduce to the environment of the component and the music. And, as in Dak's thread regarding $3k integrateds, don't simply blame the component or speaker when things aren't where you wish them to be. Quite possibly you have made a step forward which simply highlights the deficiencies further up the chain or in speaker placement, isolation or any host of options which might transform one presentation into another. There are actually a wide array of tube friendly speakers available now, even for a component such as the low powered Stingray. But they require some knowledge and some effort most stores and even most listeners aren't going to deal with. I don't know the extent of your experience with the component, DM, so this is not personal, just an observation of tube users I've encountered over the years. I learned about tubes from someone - several someone's, actually - who already knew about tubes. Over the years I've introduced others to tubes. This is almost like introducing someone to peasant food and the tastes available from not so expensive ingredients when knowledge and talent are combined to elevate, say, sweetbreads to a gourmet level of enjoyment. Certainly, if you stray from the rather well worn path of commonality in audio, the required effort will be on your part to make it succeed or to pass on it and head back to where the roadsigns are more clearly marked. However, IMO, if you have your priorities in line and check off the boxes, you don't make very many missteps. A significant part of priorities is knowing just what you're not satisfied with before you move to another component. Not audio reviewer type issues but real issues with why you are dissatisfied with the music itself. If you really can't point to a few things which need a resolution, then you need to do more listening to a reference. . . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16320 Registered: May-04 | . "Not too sure why David. Talked to two techs and both said dropping down in wattage is never a good idea when we were discussing smaller amps/integrates in their lineup. Probably because of speaker matching possibilities I am guessing. Gobs of power does mean that extra headroom at sheer dynamic moments of the music." High powered power amps have a tendency to sound like high powered amplifiers. I have no idea what the techs were referring to when they gave you that advice, Nick, but possibly they were referring to the specific components in their own line of gear. Or possibly their personal priorities are leaning toward that sound of high powered amplifiers. There is the opposite viewpoint that small wattage amps are much more music friendly due to their simplicity. As exemplified by SET's a low powered amplifier of any output device topology will have all of the music pass through only one output device and far less circuitry. That might be a single device capable of producing 60 watts or 6 watts but never 200 watts. The point being made is the linearity of the device. It is virtually impossible to match two gain devices in all of their characteristics. Trying to come close is expensive and relatively fleeting as components age. Therefore, limiting the destruction to the music sgnal inherent in any gain device or its attendant circuitry to a single component or just fewer components is, to many listener's ears, far preferrable to having a quartet of PNP and NPN outputs lined up in a bucket brigade fashion, each doing damage to an already damaged signal. For listeners whose priorities fall into certain categories the sound of single devices is far more appealing than is a high powered amplifier. Yes, gobs of watts can make for broad dynamic sweeps with even the most difficult speaker loads. On the other hand, using a high sensitivty speaker with an easy electrical load will allow any amp to operate well within its comfort zone and that will translate into a similar but not identical dynamic control. Just saying, there are always at least two ways to think about any situation in audio, which is what we call "trade offs". If I give you "this", I am very likely to take away "that". . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3522 Registered: Jun-07 | Well said Jan. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16325 Registered: May-04 | . It occurs to me that I have not introduced most of you to Dr. Gizmo. Gizmo, Meta-gizmo and Gizmology have been standards of audio reproduction for several decades now. Some people cannot function in audio, or in life, without gizmoing on a regular schedule. Gizmo himself has found his higher plane and now only communicates by way of each junior Gizmo discovering their own inner gizmoes through their own gizmodic efforts and discoveries. The path to gizmo Nirvana is fraught with discarded cables and isolation pads and retains the fragrance of solder flux slightly singed. When this occurs along your own journey, it is best to return to the homebase of all Gizmotic journeys. Do so often and with deep respect for who and what has and will come before you. Below is an excerpt from; "DR. GIZMO REVEALS ONE OF HIS SECRETS Fact: When we put the right piece of wood in our mouth the chemistry of our brain changes. When we put a small piece of wood in our mouth we engage, even if it is unconsciously, in an ancient ritual which boots up our mind to a higher state for quite a while. A small sliver of wood in our mouth affects our brain waves in the same way that music, sex, a perfectly barbecued steak, a trout stream, a V-10 Dodge Viper motor, affects our brain ... we feel righter ... we feel more Wholey ... and remember it is impossible to get near Holiness until your are Wholey ... which explains why the world's spiritual leaders love toothpicks. Your scratching your butt and thinking ... "I knew that", and you are right. This toothpick wisdom is as basic to American male spiritual health as beer, sports, cars, television and Playboy Magazine. The toothpick ritual is practiced tens of millions of time every day and is well known by millions of American men, but let me go further ... Start listening to music with a wooden toothpick in your mouth and there will be an immediate expansion in your aural matrix. Which brings me back to my message about meta-gizmos ... it is not the size of the gizmo, but the size of the spirit in the gizmo, that makes it a meta-gizmo. Why is the toothpick meditation universal? Answer: It is the pleasure of paradox .. that something so small can be so effective in elevating and transforming our being. From this day forward keep Forster by your computer. When you go to a party take some with you. Want to impress a women? Give her a toothpick. Then immediately engage her in a conversation about her favorite toothpick memories. Need to give a gift to someone who matters a great deal to you ... don't give more than a box of Charles Forster toothpicks, because anything else would be less. Am I suggesting when your parents or girlfriend or fellow work has a birthday you should give them a box of toothpicks. You betcha! I also think that toothpick consciousness may be reaching a spiritual apogee ... because I can feel that we are finally moving away the purely material expression of love. Giving gifts to our loved ones is always so awkward because no gift can express our deepest emotions. That is why giving a box of toothpick is the higher ground ... it is filled with purer spirit; it rises above the purely material and brings you and your loved one into an ancient web of life ... Expressions of love are always best when they expand our vision ... and how can you go wrong for $1? If you wife is having a birthday, don't get her a new BMW, or diamond pin ... If your boss has just won an award and you want to express your deep respect ... if you want to show all of your employees how important they are ... just give a box of all natural wooden toothpicks ... more is less. Are Charles Forster toothpicks the finest in the world? I have to answer this question in a forthright way: You have two choices ... you either savor Charles Forster Toothpicks, which you can get at your supermarket, or you go the "Custom Shops" route where you can taste hundreds of different rare woods and then have a "small batch" produced for you at the average cost of between $250 to $500 a box. Connoisseurs with very sensitive palettes care, and I will always take out my silver toothpick holder after a glamorous dinner party and offer my fellow guests a vintage '54 Circasian Walnut toothpick which has exactly the flavor that Lawrence of Arabia prized so highly. The Circasian Mountains are in Turkey. Now I will summarize the whole shabang: something as simple and old as a toothpick can be a meta-gizmo, so that is a good place to start your pilgrimage. AN APOLOGY TO MY FRIENDS OUTSIDE THE USA. I apologize to my friends who have no way of buying Charles Forster, Made In America, toothpicks. You may try other brands but you will be disappointed because the birch wood used in Charles Forster Toothpick was cut down by Paul Bunyon in the woods of Maine ... and no other wood, anywhere in the world, has the same flavor and spirit. In the same way Cuba has its cigars, and France has its wine, America has its wooden toothpicks. My concern is that until you can legally buy these toothpicks in your country that an illegal underground network of toothpick smugglers will begin operation ... satisfying your demand for mind elevating gizmos. http://www.meta-gizmo.net/Tri/FOSTERAMP.html This is no joke, Gizmo is your spiritiual and philosophical touchstone. When in doubt - Gizmo; http://www.meta-gizmo.net/Tri/index-1.html Despite my rapidly flagging respect for John Atkinson, he and I have agreed on a few things along the way. They can virtually be distilled down to two things; Gizmo and John Crabbe. Both existed in what seems to be an earlier life which JA is trying desparately to forget while he forges his reputation as leader and head honcho of "The on line audio authority". From 2001; http://forum.stereophile.com/asweseeit/409/index.html http://forum.stereophile.com/asweseeit/communities/index.html . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16330 Registered: May-04 | . Music and Imagination; Aaron Copland An imaginative mind is essential to the creation of art in any medium, but it is even more essential in music precisely because music provides the broadest possible vista for the imagination since it is the freest, the most abstract, the least fettered of all the arts; no story content, no pictorial representation, no regularity of meter, no strict limitation of frame need hamper the intuitive functioning of the imaginative mind. In saying this I am not forgetting that music has its disciplines: its strict forms and regular rhythms, and even in some cases its programmatic content . . . Listening is a talent, and like any other talent or gift, we possess it in varying degrees. I have found among music-lovers a marked tendency to underestimate and mistrust this talent, rather than to overestimate it. The reason for these feelings of inferiority are difficult to determine. Since there is no reliable way of measuring the gift for listening, there is no reliable way of reassuring those who misjudge themselves. I should say that there are two principal requisites for talented listening: first, the ability to open oneself up to musical experiences; and secondly, the ability to evaluate critically that experience. Neither of these is possible without a certain native gift. Listening implies an inborn talent of some degree, which again like any other talent, can be trained and developed. This talent has a certain 'purity' about it. We exercise it, so to speak, for ourselves alone; there is nothing to be gained from it in a material sense. Listening is its own reward; there are no prizes to be won, no contests of creative listening. But I hold that person fortunate who has the gift, for there are few pleasures in art greater than the secure sense that one can recognize beauty when one comes upon it. When I speak of the gifted listener I am thinking of the non musician primarily, of the listener who intends to retain his amateur status. It is the thought of just such a listener that excites the composer in me. I know, or I think I know how the professional musician will react to music. But with the amateur it is different; one never can be sure how he will react. Nothing really tells him what he should be hearing, no treatize or chart or guide can ever sufficiently pull together the various strands of a complex piece of music, only the inrushing floodlight of one's own imagination can do that . . . The amateur may be too reverent or too carried away; too much in love with the separate section or too limited in his enthusiasm for a single school or composer. Mere professionalism, however, is not at all a guarantee of intelligent listening. Executant ability, even of the highest order, is no guarantee of instinct in judgment. The sensitive amateur, just because he lacks the prejudices and preconceptions of the professional musician, is sometimes a surer guide to the true quality of a piece of music. The ideal listener, it seems to me, would combine the preparation of the trained professional with the innocence of the intuitive amateur. All musicians, creators and performers alike, think of the gifted listener as a key figure in the musical universe. . . The ideal listener, above all else, possesses the ability to lend himself the power of music. The power of music to move us is something quite special as an artistic phenomenon. My intention is not to delve into its basis in physics - "my scientific equipment is much too rudimentary - "but rather to concentrate on its emotional overtones . . . All this is of minor concern to the gifted listener - "primarily intent, as he should be, on the enjoyment of music. Without theories and without preconceived notions of what music ought to be, he lends himself as a sentient human being to the power of music. What often surprises me is the basically primitive nature of this relationship. From self-observation and from observing audience reaction, I would be inclined to say that we all listen on an elementary plane of musical consciousness. I was startled to find this curious phrase in Santayana concerning music: "the most abstract of arts," he remarks, "serves the dumbest emotions." Yes, I like this idea that we respond to music from a primal and almost brutish level - "dumbly, as it were, for on that level we are grounded. That is fundamentally the way we all hear music - "gifted and ungifted alike - "and all the analytical, historical, textual material on or about the music heard, interesting though it may be, cannot - "and I venture to say if not - "alter that fundamental relationship. . . I stress this point, not so much because the layman is likely to forget it, but because the professional musician tends to lose sight of it. This does not signify, by any means, that I do not believe in the possibility of the refinement of musical taste. Quite the contrary. I am convinced that the higher forms of music imply a listener whose musical taste has been cultivated either through listening or through training or both. On a more modest level, refinement in most musical taste begins with the ability to distinguish subtle nuances of feeling. Anyone can tell the difference between a sad piece and a joyous one. The talented listener recognizes not merely the joyous quality of a piece, but also the specific shade of joyousness - "whether it be troubled joy, delicate joy, carefree joy, hysterical joy, and so forth. I add "and so forth'' advisedly, for it covers an infinitude of shadings that cannot be named, as I have named these few, because of music's incommensurability with language . . What happens is that a masterwork awakens in us reactions of a spiritual order that are already in us, only waiting to be aroused. When Beethoven's music exhorts us to "be noble," ''be compassionate,'' "be strong," he awakens moral ideas that are already within us. His music cannot persuade: it makes evident. It does not shape conduct: it is itself the exemplification of a particular way of looking at life. A concert is not a sermon. It is a performance - "a reincarnation of a series of ideas implicit in the work of art. The dream of every musician who loves his art is to involve gifted listeners everywhere as an active force in the musical community. The attitude of each individual listener, especially the gifted listener, is the principal resource we have in bringing to fruition the immense musical potentialities of our own time . . . . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16331 Registered: May-04 | . More Gizic wisdom ... A DEAR JOHN LETTER This was, in a very slightly modified form, a letter to a reviewer of a leading underground magazine, who criticized me for my fanaticism over audio technology . . . Dear John . . . PIED BEAUTY Glory be to God for dappled things -" For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow; For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim; Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches' wings; Landscape plotted and pieced - "fold, fallow, and plough; And all trades, their gear and tackle and trim. All things counter, original, spare, strange; Whatever is fickle, freckles (who knows how?) With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim; He fathers-forth whose beauty is past change: Praise Him." Gerard Manley Hopkins, 1918 I hope the above (which I have been re-reading for 27 years) will put my remarks about your article in perspective. It is understandable that you would call me "strange" for advocating an unmitigated commitment to the finest sound system. It appears that your response to my plea indicates that perhaps the incandescence of my words blinded you to the spirit in which they were used. It appears that a cooler hand is needed now, so I will be properly pedagogic. For those of us who love all things musical - concerts, the smell of concert halls, rehearsals, programs, instruments, composers, and their biographies, sheet music, instrument makers, recordings, engineers, studios, tape recorders, microphones, amplifiers, speakers, pre-amps, cables, record-cleaning machines, and so on ad nauseum - "the live concert is an essential experience. But it is certainly not the total music experience. It is foolish, and I dare say, intellectually Neanderthalic to spend one moment on arguing about whether or not the music system in our home can reproduce a live concert experience. It never could, nor is it intended to do so. It is a tautology to say that the only accurate reproduction of a live concert is a live. concert, and a vinyl disc is not a musical event. I would rather posture to you, that the home music system is an art form, like a painting or a piece of sculpture. Its intention is not to imitate the ''real'', but rather to represent it, to symbolize it and, in the process, gain the great power that symbols and illusion possess. Music in our homes is the icon of live musical performance and, in many ways, more powerful than the real-life musical experience. Should I be judging a painting of a rose by asking the question, "Does it look real?" And languishing over a painting of a rose in no way diminishes the ecstasy of a rose garden. For the music lover who needs more than live concerts, for those who have a need to study, for those whose passions liberate their intellectual energies, the home music system permits a level of musical experience that is one of the great aesthetic revolutions of the century. Audio technology has permitted me to "feel" music at I a level of intensity denied all previous generations. I have in my record collection the wealth of centuries and the wisdom of many cultures; I can dance to them, sing to them, all in my own private abandonment. Did Louis XIV have this treasure? I How do you study the Goldberg variations? After reading Wanda Landowski's book on Bach, can you go to a concert to understand her phrasing? (Hardly, being she is in Heaven with Johann.) Have you an interest in music played on original I instruments? How many concerts offer such an experience? In a single evening, where can you go to listen to Tibetan chants, Turkish water-wheel music, Georgian chants, or Tchenko? I would ask you to think about the following points, because with your considerable intellectual skills pointed in the right direction, they may lead you to some instructive insight. What are the appropriate aesthetic values of recording music and are they the same for a live concert? This is not a simple question. Have you noticed that different microphones have different tonal colorations? The recording engineer and producer are making significant aesthetic contributions to any record performance and modifying it to suit their own values. Shouldn't we be exploring the questions I that center on the art of musical reproduction and not "Is the vinyl disc a duplicate of a live event?" I do not think that we should be embarrassed or feel diminished in our pursuits of an "illusionists" art form. To be sure, there are limitations to all expressive forms - "and as you have cogently pointed out, it may be that after the scope of chamber music, home sound systems fall apart. On the other hand, I think that these limitations are important. In a recent trip I to Japan, it struck me that the Japanese value dynamic range above all other values, because large symphonic music is the musical epitome to them. This leads to the development of very sophisticated, refined speaker systems that are remarkable in their dynamic ability. They are obviously seeking a different illusion and think the speaker systems we prefer are anemic and unmusical. It seems obvious that aesthetics dictate engineering, and your magazine should be exploring this area more directly. Why, then, am I so fascinated with sophisticated technology? The best technology represents someone's persistent effort to create a better illusion - "a more sumptuous experience. It is culturally imperative that we bring musical illusions to a higher I state of refinement. I would like to think that the designers of audio equipment are no different than architects and sculptors. Whether or not you approve, human consciousness goes forward, and that movement forward is expressed heroically in our pursuit of technology. This pursuit of technology should be inextricably related to artistic values and serve our needs for increased levels of joyous enrichment. Selling your Mercedes, hocking your wife's mink coat, auctioning off your Picasso, or giving your kid a good sound system in lieu of a college education is quite reasonable to me; in fact, it is eminently sensible. These machines are my tools, my tackle that manifests the world's musical wealth in my living room. This is a miracle to me. This experience in no way diminishes me or any other facet of my love of "musica" and all things musical. I have devoted my creative energies to this art form; the technology is my paint brush. Therefore, I would be clear about the audio designers intent. We cannot create a facsimile of a live musical event - "just the appropriate illusion so our disbelief is transcended and our musical souls jump for joy. Yours truly, H.R. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16332 Registered: May-04 | . Gentlemen, what you perceive is not in the equipment. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4790 Registered: Feb-07 | Well, just as an update to the thread that I started here, I actually ended up go the separates route instead of an integrated. On a whim, more or less. I picked up a used Wyred 4 Sound ST-500 amp (250 watts/channel Class D ICE module amp). You guys who know me know I've been curious about the whole Class D thing for awhile. I bought this amp not really knowing what to expect. I've heard Class D be described as rolled off on the top end, and, oppositely, as "digital" sounding and harsh. Having experience with the W4S sound I was more expecting it to be on the warm and rolled side, and I was right. At first I tried the amp with my Totem Sttafs (warm, laid back speakers), and the sound was just a slushy, goopy mess. I gotta admit the bass control was stunning, though. So then I brought my MA RS6 speakers down and hooked those up. Holy sh!t - this was the sound I was looking for. Warm, but precise, and perfectly balanced sounding... my speakers disappeared. I was immediately obsessed with listening to my system. Keep in mind, right now I'm using a craptastic Rotel integrated as a pre-amp. Have a Bryston BP-25 on the way (here Thursday). I imagine this will take things to an even higher level. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1590 Registered: Oct-10 | So when the Bryston arrives, you'll figure you've arrived?....for now! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4791 Registered: Feb-07 | For now. Yes. I gotta admit I'm enjoying the simplicity of SS gear again. I used to have a Bryston BP-20 pre, and I remember how solid of a piece of gear that was (one of the few I regret selling). I'm expecting more of the same from the 25. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1592 Registered: Oct-10 | I hate that feeling of regret. I understand what you're doing though. Every time I can upgrade or tweak the system in any way, I go for it. I played around with my speakers for over a year, then I found just the right spot!... The following week I found a better spot. If I were rich, I'd drive my wife crazy buying new gear every day 2. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4792 Registered: Feb-07 | I know what you mean about tweaks. One day last summer I decided that the gas fireplace (it was ugly) that the previous home owner installed was messing the acoustics of my listening room. So I spent the afternoon ripping it out. It helped. But I made a big mess. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1593 Registered: Oct-10 | Lol! You're killin' me Dave! I have done things like that too. I once insulated an inside wall because the dry wall was vibrating audiably. I tried using more nails. That didn't work. So I tore it out, double insulated and re-rocked it. It did the trick. The upside for my wife? It cut down the volume of the music passing through the wall considerably! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3523 Registered: Jun-07 | Wow! You bought the 25? What did I miss here.lol. I am itching to slap the totems on the lively Naim.mmMMMm shwing. The 25 pre is sweet. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3524 Registered: Jun-07 | Oh shiz, I missed the last part of your post David.lol. Awesome pickup bud. If you thought the 20 was good the 25 will blow you nuts. lol. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4793 Registered: Feb-07 | Damn... I never told ya bro? Yeah, I picked up a BP-25 on Agon the other night on Agon. I'd been asking the guy for awhile and he didn't want to sell to Canada, so finally he relented, and I took it. Got it for a good price too. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3525 Registered: Jun-07 | That is shweet. The BP25 is such a nice piece your going to love it. I am guessing it came with a remote? haha |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4794 Registered: Feb-07 | Of course. Never again an amp/pre without a remote. |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1083 Registered: Dec-06 | Haha, you are getting out of tubes and I'm probably getting into them (not yet). Congrats on the new amp, David. Sounds like it's got some real synergy with your RS6. Hopefully the joy doesn't wear away too quick. It's got a tendency to do that sometimes! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4795 Registered: Feb-07 | What amp are you thinking of buying Dan? I really liked the tube thing, but one thing I found consistent with almost all of the tube amps I tried, they just don't seem to image as well as solid state amps. Imaging is one of those priorities for me that Jan talks about when discussing what we're looking for in our system. The only other upgrade I foresee for awhile now is a speaker upgrade. Those Mani-2's sure look tempting now that I have enough power..... |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1084 Registered: Dec-06 | Mani-2's eh? That's pretty awesome! There is usually a pair up for sale on CAM at any given time. Not sure about the amp yet. I'm curious about the whole highly efficient speaker powered by a simple class a amp. I really like the idea of the Decware DM945 speaker, so that is what I'll probably run. I suppose the amp will either be a tube amp or a Sugden ss. Lots of options. Not sure when I will pull the trigger, I'm not quite ready to do this yet. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1353 Registered: Jul-07 | How big is your new listening room David ? Mani-2's may overwhelm a small to mid sized room. They produce a lot of bass energy for a smallish speaker. And, as Nuck I'm sure has informed you, they like lots and lots of juice. They aren't really for quiet late night listening sessions. Quite a departure from the Staafs. Dan, if you do pull the trigger at some point on the Decware speakers, talke to Steve about an amp as well. And talk to him about what HIS priorities are. I've had a couple of discussions with him and he is very good about letting you know what he thinks is important, and applies this across everything he designs. If you like what he does, a matched set of amp/speakers might be ideal for you. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4796 Registered: Feb-07 | Hey Chris. I had Nuck's Mani 2s in my listening room for a while. It's a very small room (my new listening room is gonna be slightly bigger), but the Mani's sounded phenomenal. Hands down the best speakers I have ever heard. They are quiet the imposing bookshelf speaker, though. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1355 Registered: Jul-07 | I'd forgotten that Dave. If you've already had them in your home and liked the heck out of them, it's certainly a much safer purchase. What were you driving them with then ? The Stingray ? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4797 Registered: Feb-07 | At the time I had my McIntosh 6300. Only 100 watts - no where near enough guts to drive the Mani's, but at low volumes it was just fine. I've even heard of guys driving the Manis with 10 watt SET amps, as nutty as that sounds. You know the band Black Flag, right? (who wouldn't - well, maybe my mom). They had a drummer in the early days named Robo. He was famous for wearing a lot of metal and plastic bracelets, and apparently if you listen really carefully, you can hear his bracelets on some of the Black Flag records. Well, I never did - until I had the Mani-2's. I could hear them quite clearly. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1357 Registered: Jul-07 | Cool. Are the Mani-2's still engaging at low'ish volumes ? From talking to other folks I had heard that they didn't quite "come alive" until a little juice was pushed through them. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4798 Registered: Feb-07 | They sounded pretty good at low volumes to me. I've also heard them driven very loud with kilowatt Mac monoblocs too :-) Now that's a treat. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4799 Registered: Feb-07 | My Bryston BP-25 rolled in today. Man, this is a sweet piece of gear! Some pics of the W4S amp too.     |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4800 Registered: Feb-07 | and a couple more...   |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3526 Registered: Jun-07 | Looks awesome David. Your BP25 came with the separate PSU. Awesome. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 14538 Registered: Feb-05 | Lookin' good Mr. Mitchell! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4801 Registered: Feb-07 | Thanks guys. For the first time in a long time, I satisfied with my system. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1358 Registered: Jul-07 | Very nice Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 1088 Registered: Dec-06 | Nice David. The MA's look killer, as does that W4S amp. You going to hang onto the Sttafs? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4802 Registered: Feb-07 | The Sttafs are Nick's now Dan. I had a hard time parting with them, and I wouldn't have sold them to anyone but a friend. I know they'll be loved there :-) Time to try something different speaker-wise, anyway. |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1594 Registered: Oct-10 | Sure is a nice looking set up! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3527 Registered: Jun-07 | Ya bud I will put them to good use. Dave gave me a great deal on them too. Can't wait to get them. |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgamePickering, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1210 Registered: Jun-08 | Great to see you got your BP25. That's is one wonderful "tell-all" preamp. It's definitely a keeper in your systems. I'm sure you're loving how it's all come together. Wow Dave - never thought you would sell those Sttafs, they were the constant - the spindle in your rotatation. So are the MA's to stay as the mains for sometime or are you sourcing out a new pair of speakers.....do tell? Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4803 Registered: Feb-07 | I'm pretty happy with my system George. Probably would be a good idea to wait until the listening room is done this fall and see how the set up sounds in a totally different room. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4456 Registered: May-05 | Glad the gear is working out, David. I think the best move is to wait until the room is done. The room and setup in that space may well be the most important aspect of the system. I've heard pretty significant differences between one room and house vs another every time I've moved. You don't know what you truly have until it's set up right. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4804 Registered: Feb-07 | Yeah, I agree Stu. That's a solid plan. I'm actually kicking around pulling the Ascends out of my HT and see how they sound with the W4S amp too. (uh oh... I said the "A" word...lol). |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3529 Registered: Jun-07 | Uh Oh...Now you did it...Here they come..... lol |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgamePickering, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1211 Registered: Jun-08 | The weakest link in audio systems today tend to be the speakers (very high distortion, in comparison to everything else in the chain) and the listening room. These are the places where the greatest sonic changes can be achieved (either in the positive or the negative). Yes - waiting to move into the new room would be a wise choice before any further changes. You've currently got a great system there Dave - enjoy it for all it is! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4805 Registered: Feb-07 | For me, definitely the weakest link is my room. |
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