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New member Username: BaweissPost Number: 1 Registered: Mar-11 | I have a new building with wiring for 3 pairs of indoor and two pairs of outdoor speakers in the walls. It is also set up for 4 keypads to control the system. Money got low so amp and keypads didn't get installed before the company went under (no laughing please). I have a pair of ESS AMT-1s that have been rebuilt a couple of times, and 2 pairs of Yamaha outdoor speakers (NS-AW570) that are about one year old. All are 6 ohms. I used to fancy myself an audiophile, but that was 30 years ago. Now I'm lost. I've found a reputable (I think) dealer with some used equipment that I am considering, but I'm open to new components too. Budget is $3000 max and $2000 would be a lot better. He has a Nuvo Concerto for $2000 and a Matrix MRC-1 for $899. I've found a lot of chatter about the Nuvo, mainly more enthusiasm about the keypads than the sound, and nothing about the Matrix. It looks like Elan may have some good options. Questions are: 1) Opinions about the Nuvo Concerto or the Matrix, vs Elan? 2) Others I ought to consider? 3) Back in the day, I thought you needed a lot of watts to get good sound. Is that still true? Thanks. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16047 Registered: May-04 | . I can't make heads or tails out of what you've posted. What does the building with all the wiring but no speakers have to do with your plan? Budget is tight so, you're going to spend $2k on an amp? Please explain. . |
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New member Username: BaweissPost Number: 2 Registered: Mar-11 | Sorry to not be clear. The building with the wiring has the speakers I mentioned. I have a tuner and CD player also that I hope to use with the amp I'm shopping for. For now, I'm listening to the ESS speakers with an old receiver that I borrowed. I've been reading about and seeing some very expensive equipment. If I can get good sound for less money, do tell. I'd be thrilled. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16050 Registered: May-04 | . Well, I guess I'm stupid because I still don't know exactly what you want me to tell you. Of course you can get good sound for less dollars - depending on what your definition of "good sound" is. I will tell you what a told innumerbale clients in twenty five years of retail audio sales, you can buy a bargain or you can buy a deal. If you buy something just because it was offered at a "good price", then you're buying a bargain and bargains come along day after day. The day after you buy this bargain there will be another bargain that you could have bought had you waited. Bargains seldom turn into good deals. If, instead, you buy a "good deal", then you have made a purchase that isn't at all about price. That doesn't mean you have to ignore price, you should have a budget established and try to stay as close to its limits as possible. A component can be lower priced than another and still perform well. The catch is that lower priced component will require a fair amount of intelligent system matching to achieve its highest performance. When you begin with existing components at either end of the system, matching components becomes more difficult and probably somewhat more expensive. The moral here is you can read about all kinds of price ranges but what you will need to spend will depend entirely on what you want in the final product. If you buy a bargain and you're unhappy two weeks later because a better bargain has come along, no one wins except the person who unloaded something they couldn't sell without drastically reducing the price. If you buy a good deal, then you will be satisfied with what you bought - and what you paid for it - six weeks, six months and six years from now. If you intend to use the ESS speakers, you will need a fairly hefty amplifier which will mean either you will sacrifice some sound quality to hit a price or you will sacrifice some on paper watts for higher sound quality. "Power" is not determined by watts and watts have nothing to do with sound quality. Do you intend to use the ESS as the final speakers in this system? They are decades old and "rebuilt". I have to say I have no idea what "rebuilt" means. It's unlikely they are as new since ESS components have been difficult if not impossible to source for at least the last twenty years. It's highly likely they were "rebuilt" to specs that said make them work close enough to the original that the customer doesn't complain. It doesn't really matter, though the ESS's were a decent speaker in the late '70's, I can only think of a very small group of speakers (or components) from thirty five years ago that are even relatively competitive with today's designs. The ESS's would not, IMO, be in that group. So let's start with your plans for speakers. Are the ESS's going to stay? Have you taken the time to audition any of today's speakers? Is there a decent audio retailer in your area? How big is the room where the main speakers will reside? How flexible can you be in the set up of the system and the speakers? If the speakers must exist in predetermined locations within the room, you've already said you're not interested in getting the best from the system. What are your listening tastes in music? What does "good sound" mean to you? Please, be specific in that last response. "Tight bass", "clear mids" and "clean highs" are not appropriate answers to that question. If those are you priorities, you can do this for far less money than if you have clear objectives in mind for how music should be reproduced. Do you hear live music on a regular schedule? If not, what will be your baseline for comparison when auditioning components? Will you actually sit and listen to an entire album? Or, will you be doing other things while the music is more background filler? Sorry for all the questions, but qualifying what you think you need and what you think you want are the most important steps at this point. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16051 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/672623.html |
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New member Username: BaweissPost Number: 3 Registered: Mar-11 | What you are telling me is that I'm not thinking about my problem correctly, which is OK. That's why I'm trying to get some expertise. I'll try to answer your questions and see how we go. I understand the bargain price vs good deal dichotomy. I want to buy something I can afford that I'll be happy with--ideally for the rest of my life. The system I bought in 1976 lasted 30 years. Repeating that would be good. IT doesn't have to be the newest new thing or the biggest discount. Do you intend to use the ESS as the final speakers in this system?--I was but I could use them in a location that wasn't my central listening location. Have you taken the time to audition any of today's speakers? --I did once, but I didn't trust the person. Need to start over. Is there a decent audio retailer in your area?--No. I have to go to the SF Bay Area. I'm closest to Santa Rosa, but I could go elsewhere. How big is the room where the main speakers will reside? 20x20 with 17 ft ceiling. How flexible can you be in the set up of the system and the speakers? --It would be good if the speakers resided on the wall where the wires are, but don't have to be in a fixed spot. There is a closet for the components on the other side of the building that I was going to use. What are your listening tastes in music? Mainly rock, some folk and classical. What does "good sound" mean to you? Please, be specific in that last response. Probably can't be. I don't think I know the lingo you are looking for. I want to hear all the parts I know are there. I like a strong bass that doesn't distort. I know what Mark Knopfler's voice sounds like and I want to recognize it. I want to push to moderate but not high volume. Do you hear live music on a regular schedule? All the time. But I don't know if that's the best standard. Sometimes I can't hear enough vocal, or enough guitar, or I'm too close to the speakers and the whole thing is too loud, or off to one side (I'm short and want to see also) where the balance isn't good. If not, what will be your baseline for comparison when auditioning components? I usually pick something I know well--last time I used Abbey Road--that has some strong bass passages, some strings, vocals, and see if it sounds the way I think it should. Will you actually sit and listen to an entire album? Yes. That's the whole point. Or, will you be doing other things while the music is more background filler? Sometimes. That's why there are speakers outside and in the workshop, but I know that this isn't where I need the good sound. Sorry for all the questions, but qualifying what you think you need and what you think you want are the most important steps at this point. Sorry to not give you what you needed on the first go. Thanks for sticking with me. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16052 Registered: May-04 | . Let's start this next section with some simple questions. 20X20X17 has some problems. Any room which is essentially square (or where any two dimensions are easily divisible by each other) will have very strong bass peaks and dips which can only be undone by either the current digital room correction software or by substantial amounts of absorptive room treatments. This is simple physics and cannot be changed. Using room correction software which is trying to correct a +/-20dB response curve places demands on your amlifier which can be difficult to overcome. While the height of the room benefits good sound, the width and length are going to present problems. Are these the actual measurements of the room? If so, is there another room you might use that is not square or close to square? The room is the major contributor to the sound quality you achieve. If the room is poor, the sound will be poor and a good portion of your investment will be spent correcting for what the room injects into the sound. How were you intending to make a purchase of audio equipment if you don't have a reliable retailer? IMO you need to audition equipment and hopefully an entire system before you commit to a purchase. Unless you really can work your way through the insider's lingo of reviews and you know very clearly what sort of music reproduction you desire, buying over the phone is chancey at best. Live amplified music is seldom what you want to use for reference if your reference is still tied to bass, mids and highs. Unamplified music is afar better source for making decisions. Ever hear unamplified music? Sound reinforcement speakers and the rooms they work into are never intended to be anything but what they are. Yet you say, "I know what Mark Knopfler's voice sounds like and I want to recognize it". My guess is you've never heard Knofler's voice without a microphone and some amplification behind it playing through speakers. For my reference then, how do you know what Knofler's voice sounds like? Can you describe it to me? Think about what you are perceiving when you are hearing live music of any sort. What would you say are important qualities which can be found in live music that have little to nothing to do with bass, mids and treble? And, BTW, I cannot lead you to specific components to buy. You'll have to do some listening and judgement making on your own. Are you OK with that? . |
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New member Username: BaweissPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-11 | Interesting that the room is a problem. ITs not a perfect cube, Ceiling slopes from 11 feet at the speaker wall to 17 at the back but its close. I will have to think about this wrinkle but would like to continue to ponder components while I'm at it. I get your point about amplification. I've been to a couple events that were small enough that there was no amplification but so rarely that I can't integrate it into my view of what sound I want. You are correct that Mr. Knopfler hasn't visited me and played. Too bad. I'm planning to go to the Bay Area and listen to some stuff. I know of a place in Santa Rosa as I said, and will probably visit a couple of others. After I've made a selection, I may shop on- line. More likely, after someone has spent time with me, I'll want to buy from them. I didn't post here thinking you'd tell me exactly what to buy. I want to know the reputation of the companies I'm considering. Is the quality such that the amp will last for 25 years? Are knowledgeable people even buying multi-room systems or is the technology not good enough yet? I want a source for information that isn't an ad or a company website. I still would like you to comment on the components I mentioned: Nuvo Matrix/AMX, and Elan? Are you OK with that? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16059 Registered: May-04 | . "I get your point about amplification. I've been to a couple events that were small enough that there was no amplification but so rarely that I can't integrate it into my view of what sound I want. You are correct that Mr. Knopfler hasn't visited me and played. Too bad." It would be great if Knofler made personal appearances in living rooms - but I suppose that's limited to a crowd you and I do not run with. However, the point of the question goes more towards establishing priorities regarding music reproduction and realizing how to recognize those priorities when you find them. You obviously should recognize the qualities of a human voice and how a voice is perceived in your room. Filter out the facts that Knofler's voice must first go through a microphone which introduces its own character to the sound quality and then be "sweetened" (manipulated) by several engineers along its path to being encoded into a CD. These are the qualities you hear in the recording which will never be present even should Knofler decide to play a few bars of "Sultans of Swing" in your room. There are also qualities which are consistent from voice to voice which you can use to form priorities regarding what is acceptable reproduction and what is not. One such quality would be the preceived dimensions of a voice. It is not as wide as the room but actually very small in the physical space it inhabits - most often it is a near point in space which then expands to fill that particular space with its power or it weakness. The room provides much of the character to the voice and therefore the voice changes somewhat with the room. Take a small portable radio with you as you walk through various spaces - inside to outside and room to room - to hear how the room affects the quality of just a voice. A vocalist will play their leading egdes off the beat of the supporting musicians, playing with, ahead of, or slightly behind the downbeat. Should the vocalist be close mic'd with their lips up against the screen of the microphone, the amount of detail you hear will be very unlike what you would hear should you be in the first row of a non-amplified performance. While you are after the information on the disc, you also want to recognize when too much is simply too much. The art of performing is also the art of listening. Musicians listen to themself and to any other musician who might be playing along. Their communication between themself establishes a pace and a rhythm which suggests live music happening in real time. The timing of each performer striking a downbeat is a matter of how that particular musican or that group of musicians performs - it is their signature. Are certain performers laying back slightly behind the beat or are they stretching the beat to add emphasis? Are they playing on the 1/3? Or on the 2/4? What makes them special in your estimation? You should be able to give a few quick, brief answers to that question. You say you know Knofler's voice. If you think about it, these are the things you know about Knofler which makes everyone else "not Knofler". What about dynamics? The use of effective dynamics is also a part of the talent and artistry of any decent performance. Does the system accurately - in your opinion - display the dynamics of the performance? Both macro and micro dynamcis that you perceive in a live performance? The dynamics which makes Knofler "Knofler-esque"? Does the system display timbre of instruments well? If you are familiar with the sound of a certain piano, does the system do the instrument justice when it has been well recorded? Is the attack, decay and sustain of the instrument as you would expect if you were hearing the performance live? Possibly these are qualities which you have never considered before now. But these are the qualities of performance which you are saying you wish to duplicate in your room. You can hear many of these qualities in amplified and nonamplified performances. So despite the fact you are listening through a fairly crude (by high end audio standards) sound reinforcement system, you can recognize and begin to establish priorities from any music you encounter. IMO knowing the difference between a high school orchestra's performance of a certain piece of music and the style of performance you would expect from a Knofler type talent is useful when you begin sorting through audio components. It helps if you also play an instrument, but it's not necessary. Certainly anyone who has sat through a high school or neighborhood bar's type of music making should have some idea of how music is made well and how it is dissembled. Generally, when you're paying for audio components, you want to end up with the stuff that sounds like the talented performer might be in your room - or at the very least, that you are in their's. So, establishing a few musical priorities are IMO at the top of the list for finding a satisfying system. You begin by hearing live music and understanding what it is about live music that says "live music" to your ears. Or what says "Mark Knofler" to your ears. Or "Sting" or "Elvis" or "Sinatra", etc. Get the idea? It's not about the hifi components and the hifi tricks they can play, its about the music and about the music appearing to you to be not being reproduced by an audio system. Oftentimes, this means a smaller, simpler system that captures as many of your priorities as possible. You'll eventually have to make some concessions as there are no audio qualities that I can think of that are not without compromise. If a component does "this" well, it will probably not do "that" equally as well - or you wll pay dearly to achieve "that" too. So, audio has a lot of compromises and you will need to have your priorities ready so you can say these are the things I must have to make music sound interesting and these are the things I can live without if I can't afford them. Then you begin to listen, not to the component but to the music. Spend some time on a slow weekday afternoon when you can be left alone to just listen without a salesperson hanging over your shoulder. Take along some music you know but ask if there's anything the shop has which would show off their equipment. If you have your priorities down, some things you can decide within the first few minutes while others may take quite awhile longer. If the shop has good demo facilties and seems interested in having you as their client, by all means spend your money there if at all possible. You can shop on line but give the shop the right to make some profit the online retailer doesn't need to stay in business while working out of their garage. Most brick and mortar shops will work with you on price if they can. Remember, you're also paying for their demo facilities and some after the sale service that you will not get from the online retailer. I'm listening to fifty year old amplifiers in my main system. They've been reintroduced by the manufacturer and are still well regarded for their musical abilities. I've owned these amps for the last twenty eight years. There's no need to buy constantly, if you buy correctly. Speakers have made more improvements over the last few decades than any other component and, as I said, most twenty plus year old speakers would be better off in a secondary system. Top notch multi-channel and multi-room systems tend to be very expensive and are generally purchased by the type of person who prefers and can afford to update every few years as technology changes. They are purchased by the person who is a bit more attracted to the equipment than to the music IMO. Good multi-channel is IMO expensive. Muti-room is better left to the components meant for multi-room distribution. So it's not unusual to have a main two channel system for when you prefer to sit and enjoy music by itself and then have a multi-room distribution system that is for background. You can do this in one system but it tends to get expensive. The Nuvo/AMX/Elan, etc. are components I've not heard nor operated. Their emphasis would appear to be on whole house distribution. My guess would then be the name on the faceplate is interchangeable with other products as Nuvo is merely buying a "generic" set of boards and chips which serve their design purpose. That doesn't mean their sound quality is inferior to other similar products. I would say, though, that if you are serious about listening to music for enjoyment and a certain amount of education about how music is made by specific performers, then you should make a decision as to how important the music will be in the end product. There's certainly no problem with going the multi-room route, lots of people do just that. But it will not be as satisfying to listen to as a dedicated music system IMO. Most good shops can demonstrate the difference. . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3448 Registered: Jun-07 | As I may chime in about the amps. Nuvo, AMX and Elan are all home automation/ multi room control system manufacturers that have amps built by other companies to complete their packaged product. Elan is a good cheaper solution to full home automation and competes mainly straight with the more popular Crestron, who also have amps at crazy prices that sound ok at best. What Jan has mentioned so far is very important when putting together a system. But what I would add is to get away from the brands you have mentioned and buy something that is at least made by an audio company. 2K would surely get you that. Whatever it may be. With the multiroom keypads and wiring in place a simple Elan keypad set and controller unit would be fine and spend the money on a real amp. Cheers. |
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New member Username: BaweissPost Number: 5 Registered: Mar-11 | Sorry about the delay. Sometimes life interferes. You both are most helpful. I have been listening my whole life and even had music training, but I am not a musician. I am familiar with the concepts you elaborate on, but I don't have the vocabulary to verbalize what I hear. I also miss a lot. If I had a better ear, I'd have learned to play myself. It is clearly time to go forward and do some bricks and mortar shopping/listening, with the experience and taste that I have. I had considered the prospect of buying a low-end multi-room amp to push my outdoor speakers, using MP3 files as a source, and a dedicated system for more serious listening. I will consider that further. It gives me two problems, or more, instead of one, and I hate shopping, but that's OK. I had gotten the idea that one of my problems was there were lots of components as you suggest, assembled cheaply and marketed in nice boxes. This isn't what I want. I'm thinking to lay down what for me is serious money, and I will only do that if I am persuaded that I can enjoy the system for the rest of my life. It would be very helpful for you to recommend a few companies that have good reputations in the present market, since it doesn't sound like the ones I've stumbled across are the ones. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16066 Registered: May-04 | . MP3 files compromise performance to some degree. How much depends on how you've stored the files - how much compression have you used to obtain more content vs higher fidelity - and just how you intend the music to be heard. Certainly outdoor speakers are not intended for critical listening. Neither would you consider extension speakers in locations like a dining area or a bathroom to be anything other than background filler material. A useful choice though for these locations might be a higher fidelity music server. They are coming in at some very reasonable prices for what you get. Nick might have more specific suggestions for which piece to consider. When you head out to do your listening, I would suggest you resist the salesperson's desire to do quick A-B testing for "which do you prefer". Unless a component or speaker is truly atrocious, you miss certain aspects of performance by being put in a position where you are giving a decision based on a few seconds exposure to what the electronics are doing vs how you connect to the music. It's far more time consuming for you and the salesperson to ask for extended auditions but IMO it's worth the time to make an effort to really hear what is going on in the music rather than whether a particular component has a wider soundstage or tighter bass response. Given the fact the room is a major contributing factor to the sound quality you will achieve, what you're hearing in the showroom is often just a glimpse of what you can manage in your own home. Most specifically, tonal balance can be adjusted for by the shop and if they are selling, say, Thiels over Harbeths, they can make a particular speaker sound the way they prefer. Take your time and don't feel rushed to make a decision based on either "this" or "that" after thirty seconds worth of music. And, as you narrow your search, don't feel bad about asking to hear speakers in a different room. Quite often doing just that will tell you alot about what you've thought you've heard. And remember a shop cannot be expected to rearrange itself on a busy weekend. Do your listening as much as possible during those slow times when the sales staff is usually looking for someone to talk to instead of dusting components or shuffling boxes around the stock room. There are lots of cheaply assembled amplifiers and components. The lines you've mentioned aren't necessarily "cheap", they are just buying stock boards from a generic manufacturer and then having those pieces put together to reflect what they need to make their systems operate. Sound quality is typically placed fourth or fifth on the list of priorities for such components. Can you spend the rest of your life with a system? That's a tough call given the way components are being developed today. I think with the basic components - pre amp and amplifier or integrated amplifier - you can certainly manage to buy a component that will last and be satisfying for years to come. New materials are tracking down in cost for speaker manufacturers and my experience says (at least) every decade has brought significant improvements in loudspeakers. That said, I just recently gave up using my 1976 vintage LS35/a's. But these were exceptional speakers often noted as one of the most important developments in audio over the last half century. And the shift I took was more a shift that came from finally hearing a single driver loudspeaker that I could afford which offered the type of performance I desired. Many astute listeners are still playing music through LS3/5a's and will be for years to come. So, if you can find a speaker that you feel is truly musical in its nature - which, IMO, starts with getting the midrange performance right, then you can have a long relationship with a speaker and the music it allows to pass. Source players are somewhat more problematic. Over the three decades of CD I've finally placed a cap on what I will spend on a CD player. My experience has been that most players will eventually need some repair and the market has been such that most CD players aren't worth repairing after a few years time. Performance in new players has increased and parts have become difficult to source for the old player. It's easier and typically cheaper to buy new. However, don't take that as advice to scrimp on your source player. Conventional wisdom over the last few decades has shifted away from the speakers being the most important part of a system. Yes, speakers are the most changeable piece of a system but change is not what you're after. Even with a single pair of speakers you can "change" what you hear simply by moving the set to the long wall from the short in the same room. What you cannot change is how much music and how well structured the music is that reaches the speakers. The computer systems' adage of "garbage in equals garbage out" has been appplied to audio systems and if the source player cannot retrieve the information and arrange it in a musically convincing order, then no good speaker can do anything more than reflect just how poorly the source player is doing its job. So think "source first" and invest in a high quality player but keep the balance of the system in mind. No longer is it true you should invest, say, 60% of your budget in speakers. Actually, by selecting your speakers first as we used to do ages ago, you're placing yourself in a box where you might select a speaker that requires "X" amount of amplifier. Buying the amp that is needed to drive those speakers will leave you with no money for a top notch source player. The result will once again be a system which is only showing you how poorly the source component is doing its job. Better to ask to hear CD players first and keep your system pricing in mind as you work through putting together a system. You don't want to tie your hands with any decision but this is where a competent sales staff should step up to assist you. Major players in the value for the money audio market include Rega, Cambridge, NAD and Rotel. These lines have for decades been asssociated with a point of diminishing returns product line where you can get better music reproduction but you will pay higher prices for a lower percentage of improvement. There are other lines which also reflect these same values but, if you begin by listening to any of those four, you will have a baseline for comparison. All four present music with a set of priorities which are truly their own - which is far better than the similarly priced Pioneer's and Sony's which have been designed by committee to hit a price point and not much else - so don't assume the sound of Rega is that much like the sound of NAD. But, if a store is carrying any of those four lines, you stand a good chance of finding a suitable system and, hopefully, an intelligent sales staff capable of providing informative demos. . |
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New member Username: Jerry555Mill valley, Ca USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Apr-11 | Nakamitchi and Denon make some good cd players, much better sound quality and construction design than onkyo, sony, and many others I have worked on. Some of the older recievers like the Concept 12.0D have very clean sound, NAD 2400 is a great power amp. Adcom and Denon power amps are worth a listen and of course McIntosh. If you can build your own speakers then select 15" speakers for the bass for the best response, I have only 10" with 12" reflex simply for size constraint, so says my wife. For surround sound I would choose a Denon reciever. Most any of these recievers can be fixed, but the soldering and designs vary so some are worth getting fixed and some are not. If a sound system does not excite you like it did at first, sell it and buy another, it's not like we are married to it. |
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New member Username: BaweissPost Number: 6 Registered: Mar-11 | IT is time for me to do some homework. I will check out the companies mentioned in your posts, and make some trips to the Bay Area for listening. This is going to take some weeks, especially now that I am thinking about two+ purchases, not one, so you may not hear from me for a bit. I'll have to go more than once, and its not that easy to get time. Thank you. I'll return with some system ideas I expect. |