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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4455 Registered: Feb-07 | My hydro bill is outrageous; electricity here in Ontario is very, very expensive and is just getting more expensive. I've been wondering, what kind of savings would one expect moving from a tube amp to a Class D amp? Would the drop in power usage be significant? I have a family of 4 here and our power usuage is in the Clark Griswold realm.... I'm not expecting any sort of exact measurements since I realize this is impossible due to so many variables, but some anecdotal evidence would be really appreciated. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 441 Registered: Oct-10 | Well, class Ds do you use less power than other types of amps, but there are probably numerous ways to reduce your power consumption that will help a great deal more than switching amps. Assuming you don't already own a class D amp and therefore have to buy one, chances are, it won't pay for itself any time soon. A lot of people are not real thrilled with class D amps. I'd hate to see you buy one, not like it and only get minimal savings on your electric bill. Using Monster surge protection with "green power" or another brand with similar feature might help. Unplugging devices when not in use for a long time, making sure the fridge and freezer are always shut tight and that the rubber seal is good will all help. Check what your kids do. Mine were very wasteful until I made them pay for what they wasted. They learned real quick! If you have electric heat, Doubling up on the insulation in your attic and basement/crawlspace and treatments you can do to doors and windows and using the fireplace if you have one can help. These are good ideas regardless of your heat source. Searching online for more help. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4458 Registered: Feb-07 | "Assuming you don't already own a class D amp and therefore have to buy one, chances are, it won't pay for itself any time soon." This is actually a good point. The ones I have looked at are not exactly cheap. No electric heat here, all natural gas. My house is actually fairly energy efficient, I have high-efficiency furnace (around 95% I believe), and the guy that originally lived here was obsessive-compulsive with making the house air-tight. Teaching the kids to turn stuff off or close doors behind them is a more challenging proposition. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 444 Registered: Oct-10 | I'm glad your house is sealed up and your furnace is so efficient anyway. Very important in Canada. I don't know your kids' ages, but mine are in their 20s. When most of their paychecks went to the electricity, food, etc they wasted, that taught them! No more free rides guys! Cutting allowences down or out might help. Here in South Texas, we keep our electric bill down by minimizing our use of air conditioning. The neighbors have bills as high as $400 a month from May to September. They run ac 24/7 during that time. They're natives too! We're from New Jersey and don't run it that much! We don't use heat much at all. The neighbors think we're crazy, but we have the $50 to $100 electric bill. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1879 Registered: Oct-07 | David, If you want, I'll link some 'd' amp data sheets. For the ASP B+O modules, efficiency is always rated 'from plug to speaker'. The numbers are in the 80s, but at full power. Efficiency drops as power usage drops, so at normal listening levels some (or much?) of the advantage is lost. My IR 'd' amp out in the garage is still awaiting a PS. However, the IR data sheet lists efficiency in the 90s...but only for the amp, without regard to the PS. If I equipped the amp with a SMPS, I'm sure I could end up with 75%+ from plug to speaker. Again, at full power. More than you want to know. Scan chapter #1 for some relavent data. http://www.irf.com/product-info/audio/classdtutorial2.pdf And for WAY more than you want to know, read the first couple pages, ONLY of this article: A/B comparison is made. http://www.irf.com/technical-info/whitepaper/psdeclassdaudio.pdf you mention using tubes. You may actually be recovering some of the 'inefficiency' as room heat, which will be seen as a lower heating bill. At least as long as the outside temp is LOWER than the desired interior temp. In the summer, the load will be transferred to the AC and ultimately the bill. Anyway, chew some of this over and if you are still interested, you probably need to go for a listen. All the usual 'system synergy' criteria apply. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1880 Registered: Oct-07 | PS: I just replaced a 19 year old refrigerator with a new 'green' unit. My estimated savings will run to OVER 50KwH per month, or over 10% of my average bill. I live in a mild climate and used AC only maybe 2 weeks this summer and was frequently able to open windows at nite, when it almost always drops below 70. I keep the house in the hi 60s, and guests / wife dress warmly. Here in California our winters are cool / wet with only about 10"+ of rain annually. It's a desert. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1124 Registered: Jul-07 | " A lot of people are not real thrilled with class D amps." Yeah, there are always those that will generalize a whole class of amplification without have heard many of them. My amp is Class D, because it needs to be (battery powered). Can't run a Class A or A/B nearly as long on a couple of small internal SLA batteries (soon to be lithium iron phosphate). Not sure whether it would be your cup of tea or not David but it would likely be easier on your power bill. That said, the point made above is a good one. The payback on a new amp based on power savings would be a long haul. Now, if you're trying to be more green, that's a slightly different motivation than trying to save $$. It's like buying a hybrid. If you're doing it to save money, the premium makes that payback a long one. But if you're trying to be kinder to the environment, it's worth it to some (thankfully). |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4459 Registered: Feb-07 | Thanks for the info guys. I gotta admit that my motivations for exploring this are more selfish than the idea of being green. I just rather have lower bills. And you're right about the tubes being a space heater in the winter time Leo ;-) |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 455 Registered: Oct-10 | You're right about that Chris. I've been told class Ds are not very musical after I'd heard some that are extremely musical. Again, all ears are different. I just wanted to give David an idea of what most people I've talked to said about them. It seems that my opinion differs from that of most members here. So, in the future, I am going to try to make note of that in my posts. David, I'd guess you see a lot more winter than summer. I see early summer from March to May, mid/SUPER HOT summer from June to Aug, late summer from Sept to Nov and Less than summer from Dec to Feb. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4460 Registered: Feb-07 | We generally have short summers here - 3 months of good weather usually. Brutally long, cold winters. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 457 Registered: Oct-10 | I figured as much. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15599 Registered: May-04 | . I don't believe I've ever seen a "How to save energy Dollars" tip sheet that mentioned switching to a class D amplifier. Class D amps are more efficient at turning raw AC power into watts but that doesn't mean they actually use less energy, they are simply not wasting as much energy in the conversion to heat as will class A or AB amps. Considering how many other ways there are to cut energy costs and that one amp would represent a very small portion of your entire audio/video systems, I think your wife might see through this one, DM. . |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4461 Registered: Feb-07 | LOL.... ok then. Seriously though, my wife doesn't give energy usage a second thought (probably cause I'm the one that pays the hydro bill). You bring up a good point, though. I imagine my 50" plasma TV sucks a lot more juice than my tube amp. Sometimes, when my wife is watching TV, the kids are downstairs playing PS3 on the 42" LCD, the washer machine is going, the house is lit up like stadium, I got outside and look at my hydro meter. Then I look at my neighbour's. Hmmmmmmmm........ |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 466 Registered: Oct-10 | "I think your wife might see through this one DM." Probably Jan! Lol! Since you put the efficiency spin on this, not that power consumption would be significantly reduced, but do you have a lot of experience with class D amps? If the amp wastes less power, wouldn't it use less watts at a given output? For example, if other stereo amps use 400 watts to create 100 wpc, wouldn't a class D consume maybe 200 - 250 watts to develop 100 wpc? (btw 400 & 200 - 250 watts are just numbers I threw out there. They're not based on any real world specs or claims made by manufacturers.) |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4462 Registered: Feb-07 | ""I think your wife might see through this one DM." If I want a new amp, all it costs me above and beyond the price of the new amp is new pair of shoes or purse (for her, not for me). |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 467 Registered: Oct-10 | You sure David? Just kidding. You exposed the one downside of my low maintenance wife. I can't bribe her. I have to resort to making a point of bringing her to stores and just looking at stuff. For instance, I kept going to best buy with her and going to the Magnolia room and looking at speakers. She soon realized I wasn't happy with what I had. Next thing I knew, I was buying my Omnis! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4467 Registered: Feb-07 | Reasonably sure. |
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Diamond Member Username: WingmanaliveWww.stainles... .ecrater.com Post Number: 23964 Registered: Jun-06 | Switch just 3 rooms of your house to CFLs over incandescent bulbs and you will see a difference. They last 5X+ longer and use 1/3 or less energy. I have some in my home that are burning through their 4th year and are still going strong! Several years ago my state funded a green energy program that supplied CFL bulbs for only $1 each. I bought several cases. They produce a light equivalent to a 75w incandescent bulb yet consume only 18 watts! 10,000 hour bulbs to boot. Do the math. 57 watt savings per bulb, times the bulbs in a room, times the # of rooms, ect. My electric bill went down 15%. Just from the bulbs. Shoot I have so many I'd send ya one for free if you don't already use them. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4469 Registered: Feb-07 | Done that already Paul! The only incandescents I have left in my house are 5 pot lights in the basment, since they are on a dimmer switch. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 482 Registered: Oct-10 | Light bulbs! One thing I don't think of! Moot point anyway. |
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Diamond Member Username: WingmanaliveWww.stainles... .ecrater.com Post Number: 23965 Registered: Jun-06 | They really are a no brainer. For me energy conservation is easy, since it's just me and my boy. Bottom line is nothing is running heat/ac wise when we aren't home. That means at least 6 hours of heat/ac that isn't needed. Not to mention I'm a Canadian at heart so I can sleep comfortably at 60 degrees or less at night. Yes I'm a bear lol. I prefer to sleep under layers. It's my nature. I'm a shrew and I'm teaching my boy likewise. Sometimes less is more. We all do what we can. Not all of us can afford those high monthly utility bills. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1886 Registered: Oct-07 | I even use LED Christmas Lights. A fraction of the power used by a standard string, though they are not nearly as bright. I kind of like the soft effect and they'll last for decades. I may never take them down. I've had many CFLs installed and like 'em...in general. For a few special apps and with dimmers, they are a no-go, but night table reading lights, and many others are converted over. The first one I bought was an old-school 100 watt (150?) in the shape of a ring about 7" in diameter. That one was in the Garage for over a decade providing light for the washer / drier. Finally, in cold weather, it'd take longer and longer to start, than failed altogether. At this point I'm going to refrain from making a crack about Al Gore changing his stereo to all 'd' amplifiers in an effort to curb his electricity usage. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4474 Registered: Feb-07 | Doesn't Al Gore still fly everywhere in a private jet? Yeah, all my Christmas lights are LED too. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 487 Registered: Oct-10 | My Christmas decorations this year consist of a nativity scene lit by leds. That's it! The fiber optic tree and other light up stuff stay in storage! I agree with Paul about keeping heat and ac minimized. It's cool at night here in South TX this time of year and we just put whatever layers on we need. Being from NJ, we don't need many here. The cat' a native texan so he curls up close to one of us. In the summer, we use ac as sparingly as possible. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15601 Registered: May-04 | . "Since you put the efficiency spin on this, not that power consumption would be significantly reduced, but do you have a lot of experience with class D amps? If the amp wastes less power, wouldn't it use less watts at a given output? For example, if other stereo amps use 400 watts to create 100 wpc, wouldn't a class D consume maybe 200 - 250 watts to develop 100 wpc? (btw 400 & 200 - 250 watts are just numbers I threw out there. They're not based on any real world specs or claims made by manufacturers.)" Actual power consumed is not the same as rated power consumption which is meant to reflect the peak draw on the voltage source. "Peak" power consumption in home audio isn't the same as it is for most large home appliances where start up draw can be considerable. The factors which would determine real world power consumption tend to revolve around the basics of technology, size and actual usage. Due to these factors in a home audio system the efficiency of the amplifying device tends to have far less of an effect on power consumption than it would in other appliances. Since class D tends to exist in home audio mostly in the high power amplification required for subwoofer plate amps, it becomes an issue of a 300 watt class D amplifier requiring higher power consumption than will a 10 watt class A tube amplifier. Even when you consider the available straight power amplifiers running in class D which are meant for home audio use you still see fairly high wattage as the norm. The issue then is somewhat akin to which is more efficient, a carbureted four cylinder car with typical exhaust driving a 1700 pound vehicle or a fuel injected, supercharged V12 with flow through exhaust driving a two and one half ton sled loaded with power accessories? Well, as with most such comparisons the issues then extend to how the device is used. In the case of a home audio amplifier that comes down to considering which speakers are being driven. Keeping in mind that class A, A/B, C and D are all analog amplifiers the difference becomes how the designer has implemented the power supply of the amplifier. Class D tends to derive its higher efficiency specs largely by way of a more efficient power supply which is normally of the switching variety. The actual analog circuitry of any amplifier is generally the same between classes though in home audio we tend to associate class A with discrete devices and class D with chips. Granted a chip runs at lower voltages than does the average vaccum tube so we need to take that difference into account but mostly we need to look at the power supply voltage consumption from the source. If you assume two amplifiers can utilize the same essential circuits, then the efficiency comes from the power supply design and switching will always provide the advantage of higher efficiency while imposing other restrictions on sound quality. How hard then must the power supply work to supply the voltage required by the speaker? If you're buying a high wattage class D amplifier to drive some very inefficient 83dB speakers, you've given up on the main advantage of class D's efficiencies by making the power supply develop consistently higher voltages to play at average levels. You'd probably be ahead in the power consumption game by sticking with that 10 watt class A amplifier and some 100+db speakers which could thrive on only a 1/4 watt average power. If you moved to a class T amplifier - which is still just another name for an analog amplifier with a "class D type" switching power supply - and went to a 12VDC battery for your power supply, then you might notice some gains in power consumption though they'd still be small compared to buying a more efficient refrigerator, washer/dryer, clothes washer/dryer or HVAC system. Obviously, it takes far less power from the utility pole to charge a 12VDC battery than it does to maintain a constant 120VAC charge on a conventional power supply. Along with this comes the reduction in typical power output found in most T-amps forcing the user to find higher efficiency in their loudspeakers. If the amp only needs to develop a few watts, it will always be more "efficient" in its power consumption than will a high wattage amplifier running at higher output levels. The same way a refrigerator at start up will have higher power consumption than a refrigerator running at idle or a refrigerator compared to a 4 watt night light. So, the real answer to the op's question here is, how will the system be used? Most audio amplifiers aren't runnning full tilt 24/7, therefore, lower power consumption could realistically be obtained by completely shutting down the amplifier when it is not in use. The constant standby power drain is what has increased the actual realworld power consumption of most homes equipped with modern appliances. If you see a standby LED glowing, there is a trickle voltage supply that is being required 24/7 even when the component is not actually being used. Adding up the constant power consumption of all the components in your home which have such standby circuits will account for a sizable chunk of your utility charges. You can check this by unplugging all electrical components which might draw power on a 24/7 basis - don't forget that automatic coffee maker with the clock that keeps track of when you're going to wake up and expect a cup o'joe waiting - vs how you normally allow the house to run. Audio system use is relatively small by comparison to TV's and computers which have a considerable constant power draw due to trickle voltages in standby mode and high power draw when in use. Even when they are in use most of us don't ask large amounts of power on a constant basis from our systems. But someone who has very inefficient speakers and a high wattage amplifier which has a standby mode (as will the pre amp and CD player and every other modern component in an audio system) will be higher power consumers than a user with a small wattage tube amp driving high efficiency speakers who can actually switch the amplifier completely off. Moving to a battery powered class T or D amp would make a difference in the amount of power consumed while the system was in use but that would still be a minimal amount of power when compared to the other things in the average household which waste power on a constant schedule. Turning out a few lights in an unused room would be of more advantage than will most changes to an audio system. My personal experience with class D amps goes back to the 1970's when they were introduced to consumer audio. They were cheap to produce and due to the reduced weight of their power supplies more importantly even cheaper to ship across the oceans when they were manufactured in another part of the world. Due to switching noises from the power supply class D (G and H too) has never truly caught on with the audiophile market. Today class D dominates the subwoofer plate amp categories where high frequency hash isn't an audible problem and in car stereo where road noise covers up most of the switching noises. Class T, however, is another story. . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 502 Registered: Oct-10 | Thanks Jan! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4482 Registered: Feb-07 | Good info Jan. Why is it some people call Class D amps "digital", when they're clearly analog? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15605 Registered: May-04 | . Confusing, eh? Why is it some people call a sausage a hot dog when it's obviously a weiner? I suppose the power of the "D" is all pervasive. Or, maybe they get confused by the on/off nature of the "switching" type power supply and equate this lossely to the on/off of 1's and 0's. Once an idea gets in their head, they're off to the races so to speak and around the long stretch digital is just another term they don't really understand anyway. . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 513 Registered: Oct-10 | Some people don't really know the difference between analog and digital. If class D meant digital, we wouldn't be able to hear the sound with our analog ears! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4483 Registered: Feb-07 | or a frankfurter.... or a smokie. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4484 Registered: Feb-07 | "If class D meant digital, we wouldn't be able to hear the sound with our analog ears!" We'd hear binary. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15606 Registered: May-04 | . The compression/rarefaction of our eardrums can easily be equated to "digital" theory. One theory of perception suggests that we are essentially on/off binary systems ourself and thus operate more like computers than analog systems. Of course, some people want us to believe we are related to apes or that males are missing one rib. Confusing stuff indeed! . |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4485 Registered: Feb-07 | I always liked the theory how Creationists explain away dinosaur fossils. They were wiped out by the great flood, of course. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 515 Registered: Oct-10 | The evolutionists haven't offered a viable explanation yet. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4487 Registered: Feb-07 | Ice-age? Big-assed comet? It's all a guess. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4488 Registered: Feb-07 | The earth is definitely more than 5000 years old. I'm sure we can all agree on this. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 13579 Registered: Feb-05 | Strom Thurmond was 5000 yrs old when he passed so we certainly know that, David...lol! |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 517 Registered: Oct-10 | More than 5000? Yes! Am I going to debate this any further in an audio forum? Not a chance! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4489 Registered: Feb-07 | Well that's good. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 518 Registered: Oct-10 | Lol! |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1888 Registered: Oct-07 | Too many analogies. Efficiency is simple. output (watts)/ input (watts) X 100. This is a percentage. Higher is 'more efficient'. So called 'plug to speaker' rating. That would be apples-2-apples if all amps adopted the same rating method. Comparing a 10 watt tube amp to a 'd' amp on the basis on efficiency is valid. Too bad they generally won't drive the same speakers. The 'overhead' of all amps sets a limit to an amps efficiency. My 'd' amp may draw 10 or 15 watts at idle, with NO output and is therefore as inefficient as it gets. By the time I'm asking for say......30 watts total into my 'inefficient' panels, my baseline may be 45 or 50 watts.....Efficiency is now a real number and maybe 50% or greater. A tube amp may draw ZERO when off, but will have much overhead due to tube heaters and other PS elements. Class 'a' amps are the worst in this regard. But at least they're consistent. Product sheet for B&O ASP500 'd' amp. http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/files/solutions/icepower500asp.pdf The very last few lines of the sheet list the amps efficiency as over 80% for both 4 and 8 ohm loads. But that is at an unrealistically high power level for everyday use. The only real way to decide how much power something uses is to MEASURE it. And not just amps and volts, but Watts and some reference to Power Factor. We use VA but get billed for Watts. If our house were a pure resistive load, it wouldn't matter, but it isn't. The solution, at least for large manufacturing (mainly) businesses is to either install power factor correction circuitry or pay a utility surcharge. Power measurement products for the home. I've got the 'cheapo' kill-a-watt which serves well and allows me to plug something in for a couple days and take some data. http://www.killawattplus.com/?gclid=CP2WlrTczqUCFQqAgwodWSa-kg |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 519 Registered: Oct-10 | Leo! You party p00per! Just when we were having fun! At least no one can claim to feel short changed on analogies! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15590 Registered: Dec-04 | Whenever i am home, I leave all the amps on all the time, pretty lights. Days or a week at a time. I can't spend more than 80 bucks a month here, all in. Of course I live in a hobbit hole. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1894 Registered: Oct-07 | From 'cold' turnon, my system takes about 20 or 30 minutes to 'stabilize' and sound its best. during that time, I leave the level fairly low. Please, Nuck, don't tell us you go barefoot year round and have hairy feet! Everyone in California has electric bill nightmares. After our recent screwing as a result of our 'experiment' with deregulation. And other causes, perhaps. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 564 Registered: Oct-10 | I go barefoot year around and have hairy feet! Is something wrong with that? TELL ME QUICK! |