Is there any point in upgrading from a Rotel receiver to an integrated?
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New member Username: PhendersonPost Number: 1 Registered: Oct-10 | Hello - I am listening to an old Rotel RX855 receiver 50wpc. It sounds pretty good. I have a small room and am using my old pair of JR149s (an ls3/5a spinoff) and a TT and CD player to be named at a later date. Sometimes I am tempted by cute integrateds like the Creek and Audiolab or Rega. But I doubt I would get audibly better sound at the moderate volumes I use. Perhaps I should wait until I buy speakers that are fussy about amps (e.g. Quads, Magnepans or Thiels) and at that point I could look for something up to driving them, with at least 100wpc and high current. I also like tubes, and I don't think you can go tube without spending a lot, unless you go with cleaned up vintage units, and then if they need work you're in trouble. Are budget tubes (Jolida) any good? Is it safe to buy them without listening to them with your own speakers? What about all those cheapo but nice looking Chinese tube amps on ebay? But if I got budget tubes they probably wouldn't drive anything hard to drive. So I'm thinking I should stand pat until I buy some speakers with special needs. Note that I don't use the word 'upgrade'. I love my JR149s, it's just that I'm an unfaithful lover. I listen to boomer music - classical, acoustic jazz, singer songwriter, Led Zep, blues, soul, and some later stuff. Any opinions. Note that my budget largely limits me to the used market. Thanks for any thoughts! |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1032 Registered: Jul-07 | Hi Peter. Depending on how old your Rotel receiver is, you might be pleasantly surprised when you compared it to a newer integrated amp, like the brands you mention. Whether the difference would be worth the $$ to you is a personal decision, but I expect you would notice improvements.....perhaps significant. Are you planning to buy speakers that are fussy about what amp it needs ? If so, tubes might not be for you. You should consider the two together so you don't paint yourself in a corner. There are a number of <$1000 tube amps that can be purchased and serviced in North America. You'll get a mixed response on some of the Chinese products. High on value, but some folks have had quality and service issues.....but of course I've heard the same complaints on plenty of non Chinese brands as well. But as I said, you should have an idea what speakers you're going to drive, otherwise you may end up with a nice tube amp that won't adequately drive the speakers you select. Is there something specific your hearing (or not hearing) in your system when playing music that doesn't sound right to you, or do you just have the upgrade bug ? |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 20 Registered: Oct-10 | Well Peter, if you are satisfied with your current system, there is no rush to "upgrade" You may want to go into best buy's magnolia room and look and listen. You're best off going during the week if you have time off on a week day. Don't be afraid to make the sales reps do their jobs. Make them connect different speakers to different amps. Sure, they'll tell you that if you don't like it, you can bring it back within 30 days. But that doesn't compensate you for the gas you burn driving to and fro or the time wasted buying a unit, getting it home, hooking it up, unhooking, repacking, etc. Imagine If you bought 10 or more receivers before you found 1 you liked and the nearest store was 20 min away? When I picked out my receiver, I made the sales reps connect different speakers to different receivers until I found the one that sounded best to me. The Denon DRA-397 was my choice. It had the cleanest, most defined sound out of all of the stereo models and it is the only stereo model BB carries that has a subwoofer output. A couple months later, I went back and made them run different speakers & subs on their DRA-397 floor model. I picked out a pair of Mirage OS3s and a Mirage Omni S8 sub. The result: Complete satisfaction. The key is to take your time and experiment and see what sounds good to YOU! Some people insist that tube amps sound better than solid state. Back in the bipolar transistor days I would have agreed completely. These days if you buy a stand alone power amp, it will most likely have MOSFETs (Metal Oxide Silicone Field Effect Transistors) which I feel sound just as good as tubes as well as work better in the sub bass region. Receivers will either have MOSFETs or a similar chip amp (CMOS) depending on the brand and price range. The only way I'd insist on tubes is if I planned on connecting 2 or more speakers to each channel and playing it loud for a long time or if I were using 4 ohm speakers. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15089 Registered: Jan-08 | Peter The best is to bring your Rotel with you and compare the sound with the new or ask for a try of the new before to see if you will like the new like James said. I agree with him also for the MosFet new amps, the tube amps lose slowly their performance, not reliable then expensive to repair, the high speed of MosFet then the high amperage give a great performance if well made. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1034 Registered: Jul-07 | You likely won't find Creek, Audiolab, or Rega at Best Buy. You may also not find anything there that is better than the receiver you already own, but I suppose you never know. "The only way I'd insist on tubes is if I planned on connecting 2 or more speakers to each channel and playing it loud for a long time or if I were using 4 ohm speakers." Why would you recommend a tube amp for these applications ? What little I know of the typical tube amp is that they prefer stable impedences and reasonably efficient speakers. Driving multiple speakers per channel loud doesn't scream tube amp to me. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15349 Registered: May-04 | . "But I doubt I would get audibly better sound at the moderate volumes I use." You've answered many of your own questions. Going the used market when you don't have the information down to recognize what might work well for you and what might not is a fool's errand IMO. If you can find a used-for-sale ad which states, "If you like Boomer music or you don't have "XXX" speakers, you should stay away from this ampifier", tell me about it. I want to give that person an award for honesty. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/612088.html As a rule I first suggest you define what "better" means to you personally. https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=1906912#POST1906912 While not wishing to start another war, I would discount James' advice regarding tubes. However, tubes are not for those without some prior knowledge of tubes ( https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/119397.html) or someone close to guide them through the selection and use of appropriate tubed equipment. Tubes will be quite unhapy with the wrong speaker tied to their outputs and most speakers on the mass market are built for solid state gear where the prevailing opinion is "watts are cheap". If you are unaware of how to mate tubed amplifiers to the correct speaker, you really should stay away from tubes for now. MOSFET's do provide a good taste of virtues similar to tubes and FET's are far less demanding of their owner. However, the topology of the component is of little consequence today, good amps tend to reproduce music with a satisfying amount of transparency. Whether tube, bi-polar transitor or FET, I would not going out looking for a specific output device in my system. I would be resolving my priorities about music itself (not about the equipment) and spending some time listening to both live music and a variety of components. It is good advice to do your auditions during the week when salespeople have more free time. But what you hear in the store is not necessarily what you will hear at home. Listening within your system is still the key. As to shifting from a Rotel receiver to an integrated amp, I would give the same advice. Until you know what it is you are listening for and, on a budget even more importantly, what you can live without, you are most often going to waste your time and money by simply switching for the sake of change. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15449 Registered: Dec-04 | Don't do anything until you can get out to listen to some live music (or play some), and listen to as many setups as you can, via dealers. Look into local music clubs(?) or look for local forum members to visit. Your speakers are portable enough to try in other rooms. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 27 Registered: Oct-10 | Chris H, tubes have higher current ratings than transistors. Now of course, you have to take manufacturer claims with a grain of salt, but most tube amp makers claim that they can go as low as one ohm (8speakers in parallel) and that they can multiply their power by 8 doing so. I don't recommend going quite extreme, but solid state amps don't even recommend 2 speakers for extended periods. Also solid state amps can't even double their power at 4 ohms! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15477 Registered: Dec-04 | pass the Dutchie |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 30 Registered: Oct-10 | If anyone has questions about what I said about tubes as it relates to tubes and multiple speakers, you can go the web sites of tube amp makers and check it out. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15372 Registered: May-04 | . "Chris H, tubes have higher current ratings than transistors." Huh?! Tube amps employ a strong current to control a weak voltage. Transistors employ a weak voltage to control a strong current. What the he!! are you talking about? "but most tube amp makers claim that they can go as low as one ohm (8speakers in parallel) and that they can multiply their power by 8 doing so." No, they do not! Understand transfer function please. The various taps on a transformer coupled amplifier allow the same amount of "power" to be transferred from the output impedance of the amplifier to the (nominal) input impedance of the load (speaker system) when the tap and the load are properly matched. In other words, when you correctly make a circuit between amp and speaker, the amplifier will produce roughly the same wattage into 16, 8, 4 or, should the amplifier have such a tap, 2 Ohms. Power does not double or half when the amp and speaker are properly mated. Only on a test bench with a purely resitive load would the "power" rise or fall by a small margin when the load is mismatched to the tap. It's Ohm's Law which dictates the theory of operation here. "Also solid state amps can't even double their power at 4 ohms!" Yes, they can and many do or come quite close. It's Ohm's Law. Read it. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15373 Registered: May-04 | . "If anyone has questions about what I said about tubes as it relates to tubes and multiple speakers, you can go the web sites of tube amp makers and check it out." What would be far better is you going to the websites to prove what you are saying. You cannot find the information you posted because you are incorrect about almost all of it. Go ahead, prove it. Provide links. Or prove yourself the fool by calling me names and saying you don't need to prove nothing. You said it, now prove it. . |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1701 Registered: Oct-07 | Jan, why are you bothering with 'AMP101' ? Super, FYI, my 'd' amp which is decidedly SS has an 8ohm rating of 250x2 and a 4ohm rating of 550x2. Per B&O data sheet....not something I'm making up. They also claim some large current.... |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 34 Registered: Oct-10 | JAN YOU'RE TRULY HOPELESS! AGAIN YOU MISSED THE POINT! I AM TALKING ABOUT CLAIMS THAT AMPLIFIER MANUFACTURERS MAKE ABOUT THEIR AMPS, NOT WHAT THEIR CAPABLE OF! Read advertisements Jan! Many tube amps made by Sunfire and other top companies CLAIM that they can go 8 times power into 1 ohm! I'm not saying that they actually can do that. The amp cos are! Also, I have never seen a solid state amp that the maker claims it can even double it's power into 4 ohms. They most I've seen them CLAIM is 1 3/4. BTW, I am very well acquainted with Ohm's law thank you. But Ohm's law does not state that companies that make amps must be accurate in their claims, nor does any law state that. However, since tube amps are supposed to be so much better with multiple speakers, it would make more sense to use a tube amp in this application. Let me ask you this Jan: Do you ever go to the websites of these companies and see what they claim? Obviously NOT! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 35 Registered: Oct-10 | What's the matter Jan? Can't find the links on your own? Aw, poor baby! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15483 Registered: Dec-04 | Why the fukc would you read an ad? And what would that matter? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15378 Registered: May-04 | . I'm not sure what to do with you, j. You are stupid beyond the point you don't begin to realize just how stupid you are. That's not an insult, that's just simple fact. You are a squirmey, trash talking punk who thinks the best thing to do when proven to be stupid is to repeat the lie but make it bigger and then trash talk the person with the facts. You take no time actually finding facts or supporting what you stupidly claim. You just repeat the lie as if saying it over and over will eventually make it come true. You do however, begin to hedge your bets when called out ... " ... but most tube amp makers claim that they can go as low as one ohm (8speakers in parallel) and that they can multiply their power by 8 doing so." then ... "Many tube amps made by Sunfire and other top companies CLAIM that they can go 8 times power into 1 ohm!" " Also solid state amps can't even double their power at 4 ohms!" then ... "I have never seen a solid state amp that the maker claims it can even double it's power into 4 ohms. They most I've seen them CLAIM is 1 3/4." Companies such as Sunfire do not make claims for their tube amps as you suggest, they wouldn't because they understand Ohm's Law. You're more than welcome to try finding any proof Sunfire made such claims, but I suspect you won't because it's pointless to try and proof just isn't what you can do. I have no respect for P simply because he won't correct any of your stupid claims. You two have banded together and, between the two of you, have wasted alot of my time. If you said the sky was beneath us and made of rock, P wouldn't say a thing. So I have no respect for someone who will allow blatant misinformaton to stand simply because he dislikes the person with the facts. But I actually have far less than no respect for a stupid little punk like you. No insult, just a fact. Since it's a waste of time to ask you to prove what you claim, I'm just not sure what to do here. You couldn't find proofs even if I led you to sites with the information - which I can't do because what you claim is so stupidly incorrect there's nowhere to find such proof. You are completely unfamiliar with facts, proofs and Ohm's Law and nothing appears to change. If you were "very well acquainted with Ohm's law", you'd simply do the math to see why you are wrong. If you understood output transformers just the slightest bit, you would know you are wrong. Apparently you can't even do that much. There's not much that can be done with that level of ignorance. Here's what I can do, I can test your faith in what you claim. We can see whether you're right or wrong and whether you're a punk a grown boy. I can show you the specs from a few well respected companies and the high end amplifiers they build. Where possible I can show independent measurements of those amplifiers. They will spec out just as I have claimed and not as you have stupidly said they would. If I do that - and show you to be clearly stupid, how about you shut up and go away? Stop wasting my time and just go away from this portion of the forums? You can go to car stereo or wherever you wish, you just don't stay here and waste more of my time. Little trash talking punks like you should go for that challenge - put up or shut up. On the other hand, trash talking punks like you are often just as much a coward as they are stupid. How much do you trust what you say? I'll tell you now, insulting me will only confirm that you are not up to this challenge. Trying to weeney out of this will only show you don't have a clue. Deal? I'll even give you an out. If you can prove, "Many tube amps made by Sunfire and other top companies CLAIM that they can go 8 times power into 1 ohm!", it's a tie. You get to stay. Read what you wrote before you say you can prove you're a big man, son. How much do you trust your words? And are you a man of your word or just another stupid, trash talking punk? Put up? Shut up? . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15198 Registered: Jan-08 | "You are stupid beyond the point you don't begin to realize just how stupid you are. That's not an insult, that's just simple fact." LOL! We saw who is stupid! Then Nuck aka James Macaulay age:28 stay out of this, we don't need kid here! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15380 Registered: May-04 | . Don't insult me, p, correct james. You can, can't you? Or do you agree with, "Many tube amps made by Sunfire and other top companies CLAIM that they can go 8 times power into 1 ohm!" and the idea a solid state, direct coupled amp will not double its available wattage into a 4 Ohm load? Prove me wrong about you, correct that information. If you can. Pretty simple stuff, eh? Oh, I know, I'll be insulted because you think this is a game and you'd rather insult me than actually provide facts. If that's the case, "I have no respect for P simply because he won't correct any of your stupid claims. You two have banded together and, between the two of you, have wasted alot of my time. If you said the sky was beneath us and made of rock, P wouldn't say a thing. So I have no respect for someone who will allow blatant misinformaton to stand simply because he dislikes the person with the facts." So far you're right about one thing, we don't need no kids around here. Prove you're not a kid, P. But don't do it until we hear whether j has the balls to back up his words. . |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 39 Registered: Oct-10 | Jan and Nuck, you 2 are just the stupidest most pathetic pieces of crap I've ever encountered. Jan, If a school were to offer "missing the point" as a major, they would simply hand you a Phd in missing the point and offer you a position as head of the missing the point department. Nuck, you are well on your way to a Master's in intoxication! Don't talk to me at all ever! Either of you! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15385 Registered: May-04 | . I take it you're not up to the challenge. "Awwww, poor baby." . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15386 Registered: May-04 | . How about you, P? You haven't bothered to disprove or prove what stupid has said. You want to take my challenge on his claims? Same offer goes for you. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1705 Registered: Oct-07 | Super said:: Many tube amps made by Sunfire and other top companies CLAIM that they can go 8 times power into 1 ohm! Isn't that more of a SS claim? Did Sunfire ever make a tube amp? do they now make such an amp? I'd love a link or pic. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15388 Registered: May-04 | . Carver designed a couple of tubed amps and pre amps for Sunfire. They did have Carver's typical outrageous claims but not 8X watts into 1 Ohm. Do a search engine, leo. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 40 Registered: Oct-10 | Jan, don't talk to me at all! You're like a bratty child following me around ranting about how right you are knowing all the while that you're wrong. You're a stupid childish idiot. Go play in the sand box with your little friend. Leo, I looked at Sunfire recently, no mention of tube amps in their current line. Last time I looked at their site, the had a 600 wpc stereo tube amp that Bob Carver claimed could do 4800 into 1 ohm. He does not claim that any of his solid state amps can do anything even remotely similar. I'm sure you google sunfire and check them out. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1707 Registered: Oct-07 | Yeah, I looked up Sunfire and didn't see any tube stuff: I'll look again. Under the Carver name, I remember his stereo, all-out assault with like 14 (18?) KT-88s per channel. It was a 4 piece monster with 1 power supply and 1 output section per channel. I had a photo of it not too long ago. As a matter of fact, super, I DID look at the sunfire Theater Grand stuff.......Is that vacuum tube? I don't think so. 7 channels of 400 watts each would take a 220 outlet and some gigantic current. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 43 Registered: Oct-10 | Leo, I didn't see tubes on my last visit to Sunfire. Theater grand is a solid state amp. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1708 Registered: Oct-07 | Good for you, super, Now, go back to the Sunfire site and look at the specs for the TG amps. You'll see 2 outputs for each channel. One is spec'd for 'zero' ohm, which we ( I hope) know is impossible. The other? Spec'd for 1 ohm output impedance......Tell me why. 25 words or less, please. Define current source amp: Define voltage source amp: |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15215 Registered: Jan-08 | Theater Grand Amplifier - TGA-7401 Power Output (8 ohm, 1kHz) Front 400W + 400W Center 400W Surround 400W Surround Back 400W Output at Clipping 800W / Ch at 4 ohms Maximum Output Voltage 56.6Vrms Maximum Output Current 120A p-p / Ch THD < 0.5% Damping Factor 150 Hum and Noise -118dB, A-weighted Sensitivity Balanced(for rated output) 0.95Vrms Sensitivity Unbalanced(for rated output) 1.9Vrms Connections Output Impedance (Front) Voltage Source Approx. zero ohms Output Impedance (Front) Current Source Approx. one ohm XLR Input Impedance 10kohms RCA Input Impedance 24kohms Trigger Inputs Voltage Range 5 - 18VDC Impedance Approx. 600ohms Turn-On Current 20mA @ 12V General Power Consumption (120VAC, 50-60Hz) 580W (1/8th power) Dimensions (W x H x D) 17" x 5.9" x 16.7" Net Weight 46 lbs Mmmh! I run on 94 volts with minimum 75 amps output on my modified Adcom, I don't think I can provide this power, the voltage output to the speaker has to be much lower. I'm curious to know what is the power supply voltage for the TGA-7401? Leo I would make test that you asked me then I will remove of the dust my frequency generator then also test the output voltage. The reason why I can't test it for now is that I bought a new Aquos TV then new home theater, I did not finish the basement then my TV is on a table then hardwares on the ground. If you need others infos, I invite you to ask it! The Damping is very low for the power. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 44 Registered: Oct-10 | Thanks for getting that Plymouth. I would have liked getting that for Leo since he asked me, oh well. Leo, I never said TG was a tube amp. A few yrs ago Sunfire offered tube amps and I was astounded that Bob Carver claimed that they could get up to 4800 watts, but we know that there are tricks to that too. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15216 Registered: Jan-08 | Hi Superjazzy! Leo missed the "approx" in front of Zero ohm, he is right about impossible. Note the THD < 0.5% Great spec but how's that sound???? |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 46 Registered: Oct-10 | Plymouth! How are you? I never heard a Sunfire amp, but when Bob Carver owned Carver, he made the field magnetic amp. My barber powered his subs with it! It was incredible! Not to cross subjects, but the voltage source is for the woofer and the current source is for the mid & tweeter when bi-wiring. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15217 Registered: Jan-08 | I'm fine! "Not to cross subjects, but the voltage source is for the woofer and the current source is for the mid & tweeter when bi-wiring." No they realy take output voltage and current under a not variable charge! To get max voltage you use high impedance output then low impedance for the max current! I assume that the "Max" in front of current spec is in milli-seconde! Here is a review for this amp: Sugg. Retail: $5600 (CAN) Distributor: Evolution Group, A.C. Simmonds & Sons, 580 Granite Court, Pickering, Ontario. L1W 3Z4 (905) 839-8041 FAX 839- 2667 www.sunfire.com (Reprinted from the Almanac 2000 Issue) Bob Carver is being typically modest when he describes this new powerhouse amplifier, capable of 405 watts per channel (and a whopping 810 at 4 ohms) as a "magnificent amplifier", and "my best amplifier design ever. I've spent over twenty years developing it, and cannot imagine how I could make it any better, or refine it any further." Does that mean that the Cinema Grand Signature is the last amplifier we'll see from Bob the man? Somehow, I doubt it. In fact, I've seen and heard prototypes of a tiny 12-volt amplifier driving a small cube subwoofer. But this home theatre amp is Bob's big kahuna, 2025 watts for the milennium. The tracking downconverter here uses "18 Herculean Mosfets", according to Bob, to "drive virtually any load to rationally usable current or voltage level." "The circuit boards are heavy glass epoxy, double sided, with a Faraday shield on the back side. All resistors are metal-film, of nickel chromium construction on pure ceramic rods, and each is laser-trimmed to within 1% of its design-center value. Critical capacitors are film devices with high dielectric strength and ultra low absorption characteristics. An enormous Cinema Grand Signature power source built around a massive power transformer and nearly 500 joules of energy storage provide the ultimate muscle for limitless dynamics." Like the half-as-powerful Cinema Grand, the Signature has separate Voltage and Current outputs on the front 3 channels, the former for speakers that prefer higher current, and the latter for those that respond better to a higher impedance output. You can also bi-wire using these, using the Current output for midrange/tweeter (Frankly, I find Bob's way of describing these outputs odd, since the Current output actually delivers less current than the Voltage one). Bi-wiring in this fashion will, of course, require a cable like our test Kimber 8TC/WBT one, on which the conductors have been "sexed" and grouped at each end, in other words, to allow bi-amping as well as bi-wiring. Other specifications in the owner's manual indicate a maximum per-channel output current of 120 amps, and output voltage of 58 volts rms. The binding posts are all metal this time, gold-plated brass, and both balanced and unbalanced inputs are provided for all channels; on the former pin 3 is hot. There are a pair of unbalanced RCA inputs for each channel, one use of these to facilitate bi-amping for a stereo system using 4 of the 5 channels. A diagram shows how this works. Barring possible ground loop hum problems, you could also hook up both matrix and discrete surround decoders to the amp's unbalanced inputs, or a stereo preamplifier in addition to the home theatre system. The Signature, like the Cinema Grand, is quite versatile in terms of input and output connections, and these are well outlined in the excellent manual. As is our custom when reviewing HT amplifiers, I first hooked up the Signature in the stereo listening room in place of the Bryston 3B ST amplifier. This always give me a good fix on the essential sound of an amp. Here the impression was of a big cinema-wide sound, with powerful deep bass. You definitely wouldn't know that I'd turned off both Sunfire subs. Bob Carver has admitted to me that he voices his amplifiers, so there may be some departure from neutrality, but if so, it's a small one, and the sound was very musical and involving, if lacking the utter depth and inner detail of the Bryston. What was most evident about the Sunfire Signature sound was dynamics. Kicking butt is an understatement, and even what I heard in the big room didn't prepare me for what was to come in multi-channel use in the home theatre room. Both the Signature and the new Newform Research R645 ribbons went into the system the same day, the R830s still ensconced at rear. I still prefer a phanton centre channel for imaging reasons, so 405 of our 2025 watts lay fallow; call it an exercise in conservation. And while the whole HT system is plugged into a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply: no more resetting of VCR clocks), I plugged the amplifier directly into the wall for maximum juice. One of the first DVD films I fired up was Super Speedway, an IMAX film that has one of the most realistic soundtracks I've ever heard, and later went back to another big-screen special, Africa The Serengeti, which just about out-basses anything on DVD. With both, the sound was utterly effortless and ultimately powerful. The R645s, with their deep bass right down to 20 Hz, seemed to love the Signature, and the the amp's dynamic range seemed more than 3 dB greater than that of the regular Cinema Grand; this may be the result of gaining a few more dB in sensitivity with the 45″ ribbon. Whatever the case, I'm now even gladder that the home theatre room is largely self-contained in its own corner of the basement, and cranking the system doesn't disturb the whole house. I watched the convict plane crash sequence in U.S. Marshals at what seemed to be realistic levels (though anyone who's stood near the takeoff or landing area at an airport knows this is impossible), and was almost terrified. A little power is dangerous thing, and a lot of power is great! Combined with all this muscle is very good bass control: the superb ScanSpeak woofers in the R645s 4 are very articulate and tuneful, which makes listening to music on this system as rewarding as watching DVDs. Here the Sunfire also sounds great, if just a little larger than life. In sum, what we've got with the Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature is a statement multi-channel amplifier with a distinctive and articulate presence, and power that rules. Andrew Marshall |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15393 Registered: May-04 | . "Also solid state amps can't even double their power at 4 ohms!" "I have never seen a solid state amp that the maker claims it can even double it's power into 4 ohms." "Theater Grand Amplifier - TGA-7401 Power Output (8 ohm, 1kHz) Front 400W + 400W Output at Clipping 800W / Ch at 4 ohms" . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15218 Registered: Jan-08 | Jan Go play with your Nuck! It is also listed at 1khz not 20hz! Stay out of this discussion! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 47 Registered: Oct-10 | You copied all that Plym? Getting the highlights would've been okay. I agree, I'm sure Bob has a lot more innovations left in him and he's certainly being modest. There aren't any stores near me that carry Sunfire. I see the idiot is at it again. I had not seen the specs for the latest TG when I said that, obviously. But what do you expect from such a moron? |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 48 Registered: Oct-10 | Also Plym, the voltage/current source is what Bob said about theater grand in older models. I guess he changed his approach. I didn't have time to explore the site when I was there today. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15219 Registered: Jan-08 | Superjazzy I would take the same spec on my Adcom to see what I can have like result! Forget the moron! Double the power is impossible between 8 or 4 ohms under 20hz-20 khz but a very strong power supply and output stage can approach it, you are always going to lose in wire and connectors then in power outputs. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15395 Registered: May-04 | . "It is also listed at 1khz not 20hz!" "Also solid state amps can't even double their power at 4 ohms!" Read the statement ("solid state amps can't ... ") and then read the specs (400/800). Sunfire claims a doubling of power. It doesn't matter what other specs they provide, they claim double power. THE SPECS DO NOT INDICTATE THE AMPLIFIER CAN ACTUALLY PRODUCE 400 WATTS INTO A 8 OHM LOAD AT 20Hz. THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE! And Sunfire is not the only solid state amp which claims and performs, not as stupid claimed but, as I explained. It's not that difficult to see what is in black and white in front of you unless you're a loudmouthed weenie who doesn't want to face the proof what you claimed is just plain stupid. You never corrected the claim either, p. The offer still stands, care to take me up on the Sunfire issue of 8X into 1 Ohm? Or whether I can show other solid state amps which double their power into a 4 Ohm load? Or how many watts a tubed and transformer coupled amplifier can produce at each output tap? I know you aren't at all big on proof, just big on making claims you can't support. But c'mon, p, I've proven stupid to be worthy of his name. I've proven you don't know jacksh!t about amplifiers, speakers and cables and you're not even very good at motors. Let's do this, you bet with stupid and I'll prove you both wrong and then you both leave for the "Computer audio" forums and do not return here. Either you know this stuff and you're confident what you say is true or you're a weeniee who can only disrupt a civil conversation. Whatta ya say? You feeling you can back up what's been claimed? How's it comin' on those $2k spikes? . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15396 Registered: May-04 | . "Also Plym, the voltage/current source is what Bob said about theater grand in older models. I guess he changed his approach." "I had not seen the specs for the latest TG when I said that, obviously." ROTFLMAF'INGAO!!!!!! AT YOU, STUPID! "Latest specs"?! You idiot, this has been going on since the 1960's!!! WHAT A STUPE! WHAT - A - STUPE!!! . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15397 Registered: May-04 | . "Double the power is impossible between 8 or 4 ohms under 20hz-20 khz ... " How sure are you of that statement, p? Sure enough that you would bet your existence on this forum? You said it. Are you willing to back it up? Or, are you just another stupid, loudmouthed weenie punk? I'm betting you don't have the balls to say you stand by your word. . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3247 Registered: Jun-07 | If Nuck is 28 then I am 12. hehe. What does being 28 years old have anything to do with having knowledge in this industry? Super and P, are u guys the same person? Just curious. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15399 Registered: May-04 | . I thought p claimed he was "faster" at answering these sorts of questions. "Double the power is impossible between 8 or 4 ohms under 20hz-20 khz ... " How sure are you of that statement, p? Sure enough that you would bet your existence on this forum? You said it. Are you willing to back it up? Or, are you just another stupid, loudmouthed, weenie punk? Where are 'ya, p? Are you going to backtrack out of your words again? Are you admitting you don't know what you're talking about? Take the challenge or leave. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15401 Registered: May-04 | . What's going on here, p? You using "guuugle" to check what you said? Keep checking for those $2k spikes too. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15222 Registered: Jan-08 | Learn kid! https://secureweb.activeisp.com/w00000483/shop/soundcare_eng/detaljer.asp?prod=4 8 1,600.00 EUR = 2,233.31 USD 1,600.00 EUR = 2,285.02 CAD This price is for only 3 spikes! Happy now! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15403 Registered: May-04 | . Happy? "The price is for 3 spikes. Freight will be added." No. But I'm not the person making the claims. Weren't you referring to a single $2k spike? I mean, yes, if you took 1,000 $2 spikes you would have "$2,000 spikes". Anyone can do that math, even you. I asked you to show me a $2k spike. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15404 Registered: May-04 | . So, have you decided to back out of your statement regarding amps and impedance? Any sane person would you know. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15223 Registered: Jan-08 | Nick I don't know Superjammy! You bet that James Macauley has 28 years? Here is a picture:  Link with his own Mail: Have a good day! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15224 Registered: Jan-08 | Vigne Fock off focking idiot! You are wrong on all stupid troublemaker! Now stop your sh1t or your posts will be deleted! Them I'm serious! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15405 Registered: May-04 | . "Now stop your sh1t or your posts will be deleted! Them I'm serious!" WHOA AND DOUBLE WHOA!!! (That's a single "whoa" operating into 4 Ohms.) How you gonna get my posts deleted you stupid, loudmouthed punk? Because you don't like me always proving you are; first, completely ignorant and, second, a loudmouthed punk just like "stupid" over there? Good luck with that! So now we've once again established that you don't actually know sh!t about hifi and that you run for the hills with your tail between your legs, whiiiiining like a litttle child ("Mom! Jan made me look stupid again. Jan proved I was a puny little know nothing coward, Mom. Make Jan stop being smarter than me, Mommmmm. MOMMMMMMM!!!!!!" I'm sorry, little p-brain, I maybe your mother but even I realize what a stupid little punk loudmouth you are and that you hang out with those kids who are even dumber - like "stupid" over there - just to make yourself look not as stupid" ) when you are called on just how ridiculous your idiotic claims really are. What is it with you and stupid? You both talk big and slink away small. p (stands for "punk"), you are just as I said you were and always will be https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=1906071#POST1906071 You are worthless. ROTFLMF'ingAO AT YOU TWO!!!!! It's time for both of you to leave here and go pester somebody else over here; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/portables/15123.html LOL!!! Worthless, just d@mn worthless is what you are. . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3250 Registered: Jun-07 | lol. I have met Nuck, he is not 28. That guy you posted is NOT the same guy. Same name though. The Nuck on this page is a great guy, a knowledgeable dude and is like 108 yrs old. hehe (j/k Nuck). |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15227 Registered: Jan-08 | Plymouth Platinum Member Username: Plymouth Canada Post Number: 15222 Registered: Jan-08 Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 01:45 pm: Learn kid! https://secureweb.activeisp.com/w00000483/shop/soundcare_eng/detaljer.asp?prod=4 8 1,600.00 EUR = 2,233.31 USD 1,600.00 EUR = 2,285.02 CAD This price is for only 3 spikes! Happy now! Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 15403 Registered: May-04 Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 01:58 pm: . Happy? "The price is for 3 spikes. Freight will be added." No. But I'm not the person making the claims. Weren't you referring to a single $2k spike? I mean, yes, if you took 1,000 $2 spikes you would have "$2,000 spikes". Anyone can do that math, even you. I asked you to show me a $2k spike. . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15228 Registered: Jan-08 | Only a idiot like Jan use spikes on one speaker! |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1053 Registered: Jul-07 | "So, have you decided to back out of your statement regarding amps and impedance? Any sane person would you know." "Bel Canto rates the Ref1000's maximum power at >500W into 8 ohms and >1000W into 4 ohms. I measured maximum powers of 600W into 8 ohms and 1200W into 4 ohms (27.8dBW)." http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/bel_canto_ref1000m_monoblock_power_amplifi er/index2.html You won't get an answer Jan, unless he weasel's with the THD%, frequency, or other parameters of the measurement process. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1710 Registered: Oct-07 | Bel Canto uses modified ASP modules from B&O. The ratings from B&O are slightly lower than what stereophile measured, but not out of line. Point to be made about 'd' amps is that the max power is time limited because the Zobel, used to get rid of the high frequencies simply can't take it. RMS/FTC rated power is WELL DOWN from the Stereophile measurments. I believe the time limit as specified by B&O is 15 seconds while for my ASP500 module, it is 60 seconds. http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/files/solutions/icepower1000asp.pdf NOTE: -3db point for 8ohm / 4ohm changes a bunch. in the 30khz range. Also, FTC power rating is even lower than for my ASP500 modules. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15229 Registered: Jan-08 | You need basic: http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/question501.htm  You are young to know it but the good old way to measure watts is like this:"continuous power output from 20hz to 20,000hz with ?.??% total harmonic distortion with both channels driven simultaneously" not at 1 khz for 1 seconde on 1 channel using the same power supply! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is an example of how they used to rate an amp or receiver. 100 watts continuous power output from 20hz to 20,000hz into an 8 ohm load with both channels driven simultaneously while producing no more than .05% total harmonic distortion. Ok lets break this down a little. "continuous power output" Meaning sustained over an extended period of time. Today many times they use maximum or peak power which last only for brief periods many times less than one second. An amp that is rated for 100 watts peak may only be able to produce 50 watts "continuously". But some manufactures mislead and still call it 100 watts and don't give you this detail. "with both channels driven simultaneously" Why is this important? Well because of the fact that the amplifiers output is only as good as the power supply that feeds it. It's much easier for the amplifiers power supply to give it what it needs for the amplifier to produce it's advertised rating when only one channel is being driven. Unfortunately this is how some companies test their amps by driving only one channel again making it easier to meet their advertised claim. "While producing no more than .05% total harmonic distortion". So why is this relevant? Well amplifier distortion figures are taken while the amp is being driven at a certain level. Back when amp specs were being regulated the distortion figure given was when the amplifier was putting out its "continuous" rating unless stated otherwise. Now in some cases what's happening is that your seeing some amps with higher distortion ratings but yet claim the same or higher wattage ratings. This happens because now instead of taking the distortion rating under its "continuous" ability to put out power they drive to it's "maximum or peak" ability. This in essence makes a smaller "continuously" rated amp look bigger than it actually is. The drawback is that you get more distortion because they push the amp harder to achieve their advertised power claim. This is why you see some lower end A/V receivers on the market with distortion ratings as high as 10% and unreasonable power claims. "continuous power output from 20hz to 20,000hz" You've seen the issue of frequencies come up in some of the other post. This is relevant because it is easier for an amp to achieve its advertised claim when only one single test tone is fed into it. However when its fed multiple tones it make s it harder on an amp to reach rated power Some amps are not able to produce anywhere near its rated power when you get to various frequencies. If its in the lower frequencies you will notice a lack of bass "punch". "power output into an 8 ohm load" So why does this matter? Well because as you may already know as the ohm value of the load goes down will tend to make an amp produce more wattage. 8 ohms is normally the load they use to get their figures with. However sometimes you will see companies rate their amps at a certain wattage (again we will use 100 watts) and it may say into a 6 or 4 ohm load sometimes with no mention of its 8 ohm rating. that's because they know under an 8 ohm load it wont put out 100 watts at least not without severe distortion or clipping. In conclusion I want to be fair by saying that not ALL companies try to deceive the public with their advertised power specs. However since this is no longer regulated you do need to keep a close eye on what your buying when purchasing newer equipment. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15230 Registered: Jan-08 | You like McIntosh? Look their spec with good old measure: http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/downloads/product_downloads/Amplifier_compare_Mono_2 _ch_4.09.pdf |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15407 Registered: May-04 | . First, I'm guessing you don't have enough personal knowledge to know McIntosh employs autoformer coupled outputs. You know what an autoformer is, right? Like a typical OT the amp feeds its output through various taps and the power output will be essentially identical from any one tap to the next. So I don't know what you thought you were proving there but, as usual, you haven't proven anything other than you don't know much when it comes to audio. Second, it's taken you 24 hours of searching on "guugle" to come up with a few of the ways in which your statement is wrong?! Well, this time you're right, "information guugle is not good". See, p-head, you approached this as if you were challenging me and you tried to figure out what would be the slipperiest way to for you to get around the statement, "Double the power is impossible between 8 or 4 ohms under 20hz-20 khz ... " Yeah, I could have pulled a trick on you but I don't play like that. I'm talking about decent ampifiers designed and sold to the high end audio market. No "music power" or "peak power" and no 1200 watt boomboxes. We're both talking "continuous power". And, for your further information, the powerbandwidth of 20-20kHZ is part of the Federal regulations on amplifier power ratings. Has been since 1974 along with a THD spec and the wattage must be stated in "RMS" values at a load impedance. So any good audio manufacturer isn't faking numbers here. That's all I'm interested in, high end amplifiers who tend to rate their products conservatively when it comes to power output. Does your post mean you want to take the challenge? I disprove "Double the power is impossible between 8 or 4 ohms under 20hz-20 khz ... " and you leave this portion of the forum and do not return. Or, are you still going to weenie out of backing up your words? Are you still not sure there aren't more ways to show you to be wrong? Or, are you still not sure what you claimed is actually right? "Only a idiot like Jan use spikes on one speaker!" Only an idiot like you cannot understand, "show me a $2k spike". Do you intend to take me up on this challenge or are you just going to run your mouth like the punk you are? . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15237 Registered: Jan-08 | Again your usual Blah Blah! First I work then I can't lose my time on Guggly! "And, for your further information, the powerbandwidth of 20-20kHZ is part of the Federal regulations on amplifier power ratings. Has been since 1974 along with a THD spec and the wattage must be stated in "RMS" values at a load impedance." False! This rule was amended in 1998 to cover self-powered speakers such as are commonly used with personal computers. Read the new rules: e-CFR Data is current as of October 19, 2010 Authority: 38 Stat. 717, as amended; (15 U.S.C. 41--58). Source: 39 FR 15387, May 3, 1974, unless otherwise noted. 432.1 Scope. top (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, this part shall apply whenever any power output (in watts or otherwise), power band or power frequency response, or distortion capability or characteristic is represented, either expressly or by implication, in connection with the advertising, sale, or offering for sale, in commerce as "commerce" is defined in the Federal Trade Commission Act, of sound power amplification equipment manufactured or sold for home entertainment purposes, such as for example, radios, record and tape players, radio-phonograph and/or tape combinations, component audio amplifiers, self-powered speakers for computers, multimedia systems and sound systems, and the like. (b) Representations shall be exempt from this part if all representations of performance characteristics referred to in paragraph (a) of this section clearly and conspicuously disclose a manufacturer's rated power output and that rated output does not exceed two 2 watts (per channel or total). © It is an unfair method of competition and an unfair or deceptive act or practice within the meaning of section 5(a)1 of the Federal Trade Commission Act (15 U.S.C. 45(a)1) to violate any applicable provision of this part. [39 FR 15387, May 3, 1974, as amended at 63 FR 37235, July 9, 1998] 432.2 Required disclosures. top (a) Whenever any direct or indirect representation is made of the power output, power band or power frequency response, or distortion characteristics of sound power amplification equipment, the following disclosure shall be made clearly, conspicuously, and more prominently than any other representations or disclosures permitted under this part: The manufacturer's rated minimum sine wave continuous average power output, in watts, per channel (if the equipment is designed to amplify two or more channels simultaneously) at an impedance of 8 ohms, or, if the amplifier is not designed for an 8-ohm impedance, at the impedance for which the amplifier is primarily designed, measured with all associated channels fully driven to rated per channel power. Provided, however, when measuring maximum per channel output of self-powered combination speaker systems that employ two or more amplifiers dedicated to different portions of the audio frequency spectrum, such as those incorporated into combination subwoofer-satellite speaker systems, only those channels dedicated to the same audio frequency spectrum should be considered associated channels that need be fully driven simultaneously to rated per channel power. (b) In addition, whenever any direct or indirect representation is made of the power output, power band or power frequency response, or distortion characteristics of sound power amplification equipment in any product brochure or manufacturer specification sheet, the following disclosures also shall be made clearly, conspicuously, and more prominently than any other representations or disclosures permitted under this part: 1 The manufacturer's rated power band or power frequency response, in Hertz (Hz), for the rated power output required to be disclosed in paragraph (a) of this section; and 2 The manufacturer's rated percentage of maximum total harmonic distortion at any power level from 250 mW to the rated power output, and its corresponding rated power band or power frequency response. [65 FR 81239, Dec. 22, 2000] 432.3 Standard test conditions. top For purposes of performing the tests necessary to make the disclosures required under 432.2 of this part: (a) The power line voltage shall be 120 volts AC (230 volts when the equipment is made for foreign sale or use, unless a different nameplate rating is permanently affixed to the product by the manufacturer in which event the latter figure would control), RMS, using a sinusoidal wave containing less than 2 percent total harmonic content. In the case of equipment designed for battery operation only, tests shall be made with the battery power supply for which the particular equipment is designed and such test voltage must be disclosed under the required disclosures of 432.2 of this part. If capable of both AC and DC battery operation, testing shall be with AC line operation; (b) The AC power line frequency for domestic equipment shall be 60 Hz and 50 Hz for equipment made for foreign sale or use; © The amplifier shall be preconditioned by simultaneously operating all channels at one-eighth of rated power output for one hour using a sinusoidal wave at a frequency of 1,000 Hz; provided, however, that for amplifiers utilized as a component in a self-powered subwoofer system, the sinusoidal wave used as a preconditioning signal may be any frequency within the amplifier's intended operating bandwidth that will allow the amplifier to be driven to one-eighth of rated power for one hour; (d) The preconditioning and testing shall be in still air and an ambient temperature of at least 77 °F (25 °C); (e) Rated power shall be obtainable at all frequencies within the rated power band without exceeding the rated maximum percentage of total harmonic distortion after input signals at said frequencies have been continuously applied at full rated power for not less than five 5 minutes at the amplifier's auxiliary input, or if not provided, at the phono input. (f) At all times during warm-up and testing, tone loudness-contour and other controls shall be preset for the flattest response. [39 FR 15387, May 3, 1974, as amended at 65 FR 81240, Dec. 22, 2000] 432.4 Optional disclosures. top Other operating characteristics and technical specifications not required in 432.2 of this part may be disclosed: Provided: (a) That any other power output is rated by the manufacturer, is expressed in minimum watts per channel, and such power output representation(s) complies with the provisions of 432.2 of this part; except that if a peak or other instantaneous power rating, such as music power or peak power, is represented under this section, the maximum percentage of total harmonic distortion (see 432.2(d) of this part) may be disclosed only at such rated output: And provided further, (b) That all disclosures or representations made under this section are less conspicuously, and prominently made than the disclosures required in 432.2 of this part; and © The rating and testing methods or standards used in determining such representations are disclosed, and well known and generally recognized by the industry at the time the representations or disclosures are made, are neither intended nor likely to deceive or confuse the consumers and are not otherwise likely to frustrate the purpose of this part. Note 1: For the purpose of paragraph (b) of this section, optional disclosures will not be considered less prominent if they are either bold faced or are more than two-thirds the height of the disclosures required by 432.2. Note 2: Use of the asterisk in effecting any of the disclosures required by 432.2 and permitted by 432.4 shall not be deemed conspicuous disclosure. [39 FR 15387, May 3, 1974; 39 FR 17838, May 21, 1974] 432.5 Prohibited disclosures. top No performance characteristics to which this part applies shall be represented or disclosed if they are not obtainable as represented or disclosed when the equipment is operated by the consumer in the usual and normal manner without the use of extraneous aids. 432.6 Liability for violation. top If the manufacturer or, in the case of foreign made products, the importer or domestic sales representative of a foreign manufacturer, of any product covered by this part furnishes the information required or permitted under this part, then any other seller of the product shall not be deemed to be in violation of 432.5 of this part due to his reliance upon or transmittal of the written representations of the manufacturer or importer if such seller has been furnished by the manufacturer, importer, or sales representative a written certification attesting to the accuracy of the representations to which this part applies: And provided further, That such seller is without actual knowledge of the violation contained in said written certification. Learn my little Jan!} |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15238 Registered: Jan-08 | Look the real spec under 20-20000hz of this very powerfull Bryston http://bryston.com/28bsst_m.html http://bryston.com/2bsstspec.html Can you read it? 100 watts per channel. 8 ohms 180 watts per channel 4 ohms |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15239 Registered: Jan-08 | Expensive Conrad Johson Specifications Power: ET250S - 250 Watts per channel from 20 Hz to 20 KHz at no more than 2 % THD, both channels driven into 8 Ohms, or 400 watts per channel driven into 4 Ohms. http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/et250_met150.html |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15240 Registered: Jan-08 | http://www.spectronaudio.com/musicianIII.htm Technical Specifications · Power Watts per channel, both channels driven 600 Watts at 8 Ohms 800 Watts at 4 Ohms 1400 Watts at 2 Ohms |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15241 Registered: Jan-08 | Cost: Bryston: 12 000$ Conrad Jonhson: 7500$ spectronaudio.com/musicianIII 14 400$ |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 50 Registered: Oct-10 | Thanks Plymouth! That's exactly what I've been saying. I was going to post links like this too, but 1) I've been busy with things WAY more important than proving things to Jan. 2) Jan is not worthy of our time and 3) Even though you've proven him wrong, he'll still argue because he's not man enough to admit when he's wrong. He'll just argue and make himself look even more foolish. Even before 98, regulations were not being enforced. In the mid 90s, Sony was making compact systems rated at 100 watts rms per channel into 8 ohms @ 70 Hz to 20 KHz, not 20 Hz to 20 KHz, but 70 Hz! They were testing them with a 1 KHz signal too! They admitted this right in the owner's manual. Not to knock Sony, but this is how a lot of companies get away with making bogus claims. Like you said Plymouth, an amp is only as good as it's power supply. I'd like to add to that, even when a single channel amp has a power supply capable of powering 3 channels with ease, the amp still has limits. Even if an amp is capable of developing 100 watts rms per channel into 8 ohms at 1 Hertz (NOT KHz!) to 40 KHz with no more than 0.05% THD and 200 into 4 ohms, the amp still has limits! As the specs you posted clearly demonstrate, most solid state amp makers do NOT claim that their amps can double their power into 4 ohms. Therefore, I would not be inclined to use a solid state amp with 2 or more speakers per channel at high volumes for any length of time. To do so is shorting out the amp. Of course the sound quality will be diminished to begin with and will deteriorate further as the amp gets hotter and approaches the point where the overheat protection shuts it down. In case anyone is interested, I have tested solid state amps under 4 ohm loads with power meters. Not one could double it's power from 8 ohms to 4. The sound quality suffered as I turned the volume beyond halfway and only one was able to play at high volume (rated power 80 watts into 8 ohms pushing 145 into 4 ohms) for more than 1 hour before shutting down. The one that made it past an hour did so by 1 minute. I forget the brand name (company I'd never heard of) of this amp, but it had been a kit (not heathkit). Just be prepared for the next pile of BS Jan plans to through in. That childish punk fool is certainly good talking nonsense. If he had a brain, he'd be dangerous! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15409 Registered: May-04 | Blah, blah, blah indeed! Either you're willing to stand by your words or you're not. You're not sure enough of what you say to take the challenge, are you? You're not at all certain that you're right and you get to stay and you're feelng more and more like you're wrong and you go and stay gone. You're stalling, p-head. That's not someone certain of anything other than they got a biiiiiigggggg mouuuth. Search Google all you want, you're not going to find what I've got in store for you. "Double the power is impossible between 8 or 4 ohms under 20hz-20 khz ... " Stop wasting everyone's time, p-head. You've proven you're a loudmouth you says "guugle information not good" and then spends hours on Google finding things that are easy to see. You've got stupid cheering you on. Some help, huh? Stupid cheering on p-head. You're a team. You don't want to look bad to stupid, do you? So when you go, he goes with you. There, now you've got your little puppy's fate to deal with too. You go down and you take him with you. Are you going to take this challenge or are you that afraid you've opened your yap once too many times? Are you spending your time frantically searching "guugle" to find something that might trip you up? Don't bother, you wouldn't know where to look. Just know that I'm good enough to pull this off. I don't post something unless I know I can stand behind what I say. Too bad you didn't practice the same policy when you started shooting your mouth off. Stop sweating, p-head. Take the challenge. If you're so d@mn sure you're right about everything, like you were not about magnet wire and cable resonance, what have you got to loose? "That you still have no idea what cable resonance is or that magnet wire is copper is hysterical." https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/656282.html . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15411 Registered: May-04 | . "I was going to post links like this too" "Of course I had the same questions as you and asked them." As a comedian, stupid, you make me long for Dennis Miller. And I hate Dennis Miller. "I would not be inclined to use a solid state amp with 2 or more speakers per channel at high volumes for any length of time. To do so is shorting out the amp." ROTFLMF'ingAO!!!! "Shorting out the amp"?!!! Really?!!!! What a stupe! What a worthless stupe!!! You do know the people you're working with are laughing at you too? Your boss is laughing at you, stupid. Geeeeez-louissssse! . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15244 Registered: Jan-08 | Hi superjazzyJa(me)s! This poor Jan does not admit that he is wrong as usual! I tried to explain to him without any link on Guggly but he did not understand or wanted to understand, then I put links but he does not still understand. he is a cause lost! Now he remind me with another already discussed subject where I proved him that he was wrong! He is sadomasochistic! I will explain a easy way to check the true power produce, you can use a clamp ammeter on the output then take the voltage out to the speaker leads then you multiply ampere by volts under 50 hertz with a signal generator without clipping, if a scope is available you can check the wave to be sure that there is no clipping. Have a good day! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15412 Registered: May-04 | . Coward. Anyone, how do you say that in French? |
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Gold Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 1236 Registered: Dec-06 | Coward. Anyone, how do you say that in French? "You're a Frenchman." |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 51 Registered: Oct-10 | Coward? Plymouth and I stay in this discussion and we're not running away from you! Talk about "What a stupe!" The experiments I did on amps, if the amps were not shorting out, why did they overheat and shutdown? Before you even go there, there weren't and wires touching from the output terminals all the way to the speakers and yes I tripple checked that. Also, why weren't any of the amps able to double the power they developed into 8 ohms when given a 4 ohm load? None of the amps autoformers. So there was a 4 ohm load on each amp for the expirement. How's this for a challenge: If you can't answer this question in clear concise manner, as in not your usual long winded, talking in circles BS that you're known for, but an actual answer, you have to leave this thread forever! Post links? I hate to break this to you, but the world doesn't revolve around Jan Vigne! Don't cry too hard over that okay? I get online in my...SPARE TIME! Nowhere in my job description are the words "Find links for Jan Vigne" Go find the links yourself! Or don't you know how? What makes you think, even for one second, that I'm going to risk my job for a low down, childish scumb bag like you? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15413 Registered: May-04 | . "Coward. Anyone, how do you say that in French? "You're a Frenchman." I think that might be an over generalization - don't forget the Resistance fighters - but thanks anyway. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15414 Registered: May-04 | . "The experiments I did on amps, if the amps were not shorting out, why did they overheat and shutdown?" Well, stupid, if they were overheating and shutting down and you continued to push them, that's why they were eventually shorting out. You burn up output transistors and they have effectively "shorted out". What a stupe! What a godd@mn stupe! You're the kind of idiot who puts their car in neutral and revs the engine just to see what happens. "Also, why weren't any of the amps able to double the power they developed into 8 ohms when given a 4 ohm load? None of the amps autoformers. So there was a 4 ohm load on each amp for the expirement. How's this for a challenge: If you can't answer this question in clear concise manner, as in not your usual long winded, talking in circles BS that you're known for, but an actual answer, you have to leave this thread forever!" You are an idiot. You don't even know what to ask let alone how to answer a question. You are a stupe. The rest of your post proves that and I've proven it over and over. . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15246 Registered: Jan-08 | superjazzyJa(me)s Our stupid friend probably don't know that a balancing resistor is insert between the output transistor or Mosfet and the speaker to prevent that a power output composant work too hard and overheat than the others, a good reason why you can't have exactly the double voltage between 8 and 4 ohms. Another fact here from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_power Power handling in 'active' speakers For most audio applications more power is needed at low frequencies. This requires a high-power amplifier for low freqencies (e.g., 200 watts for 20--200 Hz band), lower power amplifier for the midrange (e.g., 50 watts for 200 to 1000 Hz), and even less the high end (e.g. 5 watts for 1000--20000 Hz). Proper design of a bi/tri amplifier system requires a study of driver (speaker) frequency response and sensitivities to determine optimal crossover frequencies and power amplifier powers. 5 watts for 1 khz then 200 watts for 20-200 hz A serious difference that explain the presumed double wattage of many amplifier! Have a good dat! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 52 Registered: Oct-10 | You haven't proven anything at all, except that YOU are an incredibly stupid, foolish and childish scumb bag who doesn't know his but from his elbow and UNLIKE you, I don't need to put a car in neutral and rev it to see what will happen. That's something YOU would do! Your words don't prove your points and neither do your links. The reason the amps overheated and shutdown is because that's what happens when you connect 2 speakers per channel to a typical solid state amp and play it at high volumes for 30 to 60 minutes. The amp is being shorted out also known as exceeding the current limit stupid! None of these amps had a problem playing for hours at high volumes into only 1 speaker per channel. Why? because they're designed for and playing into an 8 ohm load stupid! Since you failed to answer the question correctly or even offer anything that can be called an answer at all, are you going to man up and leave this thread? Just don't make me laugh even harder by telling me that what you said correct because it's just not! At least you learned how to tout your bs more concisely though. Wonders never cease! Here's one: A guy I know played music for 8 hrs at 1 1/2 times the power that his speakers are rated for without harming the speakers or the amp. Explain how that happened! Correct answer this time please?....Oh, that's right, you don't have any correct answers. Never mind. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 53 Registered: Oct-10 | Plymouth, I honestly believe that Vangina (my new name for Jan) thinks he can connect as many speakers as he wants to each channel without harming the amp. I love how he touts his bs insisting he's right when what he says is just plain impossible. If way back when I did my experiments and learned what I know from electronic engineers, I had known that this arguement would take place, I would have caught it all on video so I could post the videos here and shut Vangina up once and for all. It just never occured to me that some day I would be arguing online with such a f***ed up idiot! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15248 Registered: Jan-08 | superjazzyJa(me)s The true reason of the heat is the resistance in the transistor, that is why a Mosfet does not heat so much by its internal lower resistance. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 54 Registered: Oct-10 | Hey Vangina! Here's something for you to try: Disconnect the speaker wires from your amp and connect a wire accross the binding posts. Then then start a cd playing and crank the volume. Let me know how your amp likes that okay? |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15249 Registered: Jan-08 | Superjazzyjames I would not fall in the insults like him! I'm able to prove that he is wrong then I'm happy with it! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15250 Registered: Jan-08 | "Hey Vangina! Here's something for you to try: Disconnect the speaker wires from your amp and connect a wire accross the binding posts. Then then start a cd playing and crank the volume. Let me know how your amp likes that okay?" LOL! My output fuses blown as soon that I only touch very fast the leads!(too much power you said????) this only with half volume!!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 55 Registered: Oct-10 | I know Plymouth, but know it all Vangina insist that bipolar transistors are just as good as MOSFETs. I hate to break it to him, but there are reasons wh bipolars are not used very much anymore; heat, resistance, distortion, power consumption, wasted power, etc. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 56 Registered: Oct-10 | You spoiled the surprise Plymouth! Only, it be really great if Vangina removed any autoformers, fuses and overheat protection and wired the output directly to the terminals. I'll bring the popcorn & beer and we'll watch the show! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 57 Registered: Oct-10 | Should we sell tickets Plymouth? Dallas is only a few hrs away from me, but most people probably wouldn't want to make the trip. I'll bring my camcorder, post it here and on youtube. Then everyone will see how stupid Vangina really is. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15252 Registered: Jan-08 | I use Darlington transistors in my Adcom, slightly faster(over 100 khz) and powerfull that usualy used transistors, the heat! Not as much that tube amps, I can live with it! My thought about Mosfet is that you can make a amplifier with less parts then with a lower cost due to the reduced heatsink! On paper the Mosfet is better but it's the result of sound which made the difference. Imagine a Car amplifier with 3000 watts powered with transistors and the heat sink needed to cool the transistors.LOL the amp will be larger that the woofer box! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15253 Registered: Jan-08 | "You spoiled the surprise Plymouth! Only, it be really great if Vangina removed any autoformers, fuses and overheat protection and wired the output directly to the terminals. I'll bring the popcorn & beer and we'll watch the show!" In my case I can't remove (and or I don't want) due to the very high power of the power supply, I can imagine (94 volts with over 2000 amps available for a moment) blow the total power output transistors as well that the board plate, Then a good overheat protection does not affect the sound! I think that he run with a DIY amp without those option to reduce the parts numbers which is easier to made! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 58 Registered: Oct-10 | Oh Btw Vangina, my boss and my co-workers don't laugh at me because 1) They know that I know what I'm talking about and 2) I have saved many of them money by giving sound advice and steering them away from the kind of advice you give. Instead I show them what you say and they laugh at all the stupid crap you post. None of them have ever come accross anyone as stupid as you! EVER! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 60 Registered: Oct-10 | I wouldn't imagine that overheat protection hurts the sound quality. On all of the power amps and receivers I've opened and looked at, it was a heat sensor attached to the heat sink and connected to either a relay switch or another switching device that interupt power to the amp if it ran hot. It's been over 20 yrs since I opened up amps, modified them, etc. so I don't know if overheat protection has changed, but I still wouldn't imagine it would effect the sound. The problem is, everytime an amp overheats & shuts down, a little damage is done. This is why I run one pair of speakers and keep the volume in the low to moderate range aside from protecting my hearing. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 61 Registered: Oct-10 | You're right again Plymouth! Car amps would be ridiculously large with bipolars! I don't do car audio and never have because I don't spend enough time in a car to make it worth the money and if I did, I wouldn't put a really high powered system in. Maybe 50 watts each to the 4 mains (front & back) and 100 to each subwoofer. I hate it when idiots sit next to me blasting ©rap! No one else wants to hear it! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15254 Registered: Jan-08 | I runned for 3 years the modified Adcom with the IMF speakers 6 ohms, satellite speakers 8 ohms then 2 sub rated 6 ohms without any problem but a fan was added on the top of the amplifier with the cover removed to cooling the both transformers then the output stages! 2.1818 ohms of load! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 62 Registered: Oct-10 | What happened Plymouth? Did we scare Vangina and the vaginettes (his little groupies) away? Or are they regrouping somewhere planning on spewing more pathetic stupid crap in this thread? Only time will tell! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 65 Registered: Oct-10 | I'll just stick with 1 pair of 8 ohm speakers and a sub. The system sounds nice and if I were to turn the volume up just below half, no one could stay inside the house! That's with a receiver that's only rated for 80 wpc and a 100 watt sub! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15255 Registered: Jan-08 | superjazzyJa(me)s I will not search more problems with them that you call groupies, I think that they are able to see the truth, Jan is a old time member here then their reactions were normal, I threw myself into the mouth of the lion but his attitude has kicked my ego with the result that we can see! Imagine that I have about 15 000 posts without none post in the Audio forum then I arrived with my extreme ideas! Thanks again for your support because I'm not too good with my english! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 67 Registered: Oct-10 | Not a problem Plymouth. Like I told (okay, I'll be nice just this once for your sake), you know who, All it takes is a little time an patience to read and understand your posts. I speak to people everyday with broken english. There is no excuse to belittle someone who speaks or types english as well as he can. Let the majority of Americans go to other countries where they don't know the language and see how they like being mistreated for it. Paris and other cities in France are especially bad for that. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15256 Registered: Jan-08 | My Adcom sound very soft for the power, the bass is very detailed then has the hability to reproduce easily the depht, we can distinguish each instrument position from a live recording! A family member of me, a bass man tryied his bass guitar on my system then he was very surprise to hear his guitar cords then the hability of a home system to drive this instrument with so much detail. His bass guitar sound like a double bass! If I record the outside noise then play it, it is very hard to know that come from the system particulary the very low sound. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 69 Registered: Oct-10 | Okay Plymouth, I see your point. Naturally, someone who's been on a site like this a long time will have a following. First time he said anything to me, it was demeaning and an attempt to INcorrect me. What really got me upset though was that here he is disrespecting you and he even talks down to his supporters. Especially Nuck? What's up with that guy? Even if I agreed with someone, wouldn't take that! First time I'd say "Look, if you think I said something wrong, at least address me with respect." 2nd time, I'd tell him off. My system has very realistic sound too. I wanted to get separates, but that was outside the budget. Then I heard my receiver and speaker/sub combo. I was blown away! To only spend a couple thousand (with sources & cables) and get sound like this? SOLD! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15258 Registered: Jan-08 | I just try to raise the level of discussion with him and other good guys here to discuss without this usual bashing! The good point is that this forum is very active now then I hope that we will discuss of the real subject the sound! The source is very important as well that the others componants but for your speakers you can buy a wire roller with "good thickness isolant" to made your own cable for low cost, you cover it with heated shrinking tube to prevent vibration and induction between each wire. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 70 Registered: Oct-10 | That's what I'd like Plymouth. We'll see if it's possible. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 71 Registered: Oct-10 | Maybe if I ever have bi-wireable speakers I'll try that. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 72 Registered: Oct-10 | What I love about my set up is that I've got these little wall mounted speakers and an 8 inch sub and it's like having big 3 way speakers. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 74 Registered: Oct-10 | The nice thing is, when I close my eyes while listening to John Coltrane and I can picture a jazz club. Sometimes I'm the only white person in the club. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15259 Registered: Jan-08 | Yes! The advantage of a small enclosure is the very low reflective surface due to the front dimension. I have a Cambridge surrond 5.1 system for my PC, the satellite boxes are 3.5" cubic with a 8" sub, the sound is great! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 75 Registered: Oct-10 | Funny you mentioned PCs. I used to run a 100 watt Optimus sub in my system. When I got the Mirage sub, I put the Optimus in the office and connected it to the pc. It sounds good considering that it's a cheap sub teamed up with the speakers built into the monitor! The nice thing is that the sub has a stereo input so I didn't have to mix it. Once I move, I'm planning to have the PC in the music room with the digital out run to at least a 24 bit d/a convert, and to the Denon receiver. I want to put the optimus sub behind my chair and turn the level up just enough so that I feel the bass on my back while the Mirage sub is up front. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 76 Registered: Oct-10 | Sonos is a possibility, we'll see.... |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 77 Registered: Oct-10 | The small enclosure is good, the sound dispersement is good on these speakers too. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 78 Registered: Oct-10 | Ever hear of Avantgard speakers Plymouth? |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15261 Registered: Jan-08 | Sorry! I am back! Joke mode on! Yes! Yes! Yes! no! Joke mode off! LOL! No never hear the Aventgard! Do you have a link? Good night James I will be back tomorrow morning! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 79 Registered: Oct-10 | Avantgard makes a very large 3 way speaker in which the tweeter, midrange and woofer are horn loaded peizo drivers. They make peizo/horn subwoofers too. I'd love to hear them. Their very expensive and you would need a large room to accommodate them. They do make smaller speakers with cone woofers too. I don't have the link. You'd probably want to search for them since I'm not sure about the spelling. Joke mode on & off huh? Lol! You have a good sense of humor Plymouth! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 80 Registered: Oct-10 | I was surprised that darlington transistors are still being made. I haven't seen or heard about them in years! I always thought the concept was neat. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 81 Registered: Oct-10 | That's a funny thing too Plymouth, you know who was so quick to point out in the bi-wire thread that helium has nothing to do with speakers. I never claimed it did, I was simply explainig why speaker wire companies talk about bi-wiring as a vehicle for time correction. Not that I want to start more trouble, but I have to say this. He used an analogy comparing water being pushed through a pipe to relate to electrons moving through a wire. 1) Water has nothing to do with electrons of copper moving through a wire and 2) If you were seated in a sealed room filled with helium with a mask over your mouth & nose connected to an air supply, and assuming that there aren't any dangers or health risks to doing this and you were listening to music, the music would be higher pitched than it would be in a room filled with air. So ANY gas or combination of gasses that a speaker can operate safely in has SOMETHING to do with speakers or sound in general. Just like if a speaker were operating in a slow moving gas, the frequency would drop. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 82 Registered: Oct-10 | Sorry Plymouth, I had to say that. Oh, and before we get to hear about it, I was not referring to electrons being copper specific. I was referring to electrons that just happen to be in a copper wire at a given time. You know as well do Plymouth, that would immediately become fodder for a big ugly mess. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 83 Registered: Oct-10 | On to people and things that matter, Do you use headphones at all Plymouth? I don't use them at home and I never was a big fan of headphones or portable, but I use them at work in the morning and at the end of the day because I'm surrounded by younguns who like rap & other forms of NONmusic. So I got a pair of Sony MDR-X500. Not bad for $80 which is the most I wanted to spend for headphones I'd be bringing to work (they could get stolen, damaged in travels, etc). The bass on these things is incredible! I have to turn on the bass REDUCER when listening. It's like having subwoofers in your headphones! They're way better than skull candy! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15262 Registered: Jan-08 | Here is the link for the Avantgarde speaker from Germany: http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/hornlautsprecher.php They don't talk about Piezo transducer, the amplifiers does have a big reserve of capacitors(120 000 uf) |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15263 Registered: Jan-08 | Rarely I use Headphone, I only have a Philips buyed at walmart which sound good for the price 20-25$ I'm gone for 2 hours and will be back later! Bye! |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 84 Registered: Oct-10 | No mention of peizo? I went to their site a couple months ago and they talked about it a lot. Did they at least have the big 3 way horn loaded speakers with the 6 subwoofers stacked between them on the site? 120,000 uF? Wow! That's quite a filter! If I unplug my Mirage sub in standby mode, it takes a while for the led to go out. I wonder how long these would take. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 85 Registered: Oct-10 | I went to the website, mobile version (only one I can go to right now). It came up in german only. I'll have to try again on pc later. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15264 Registered: Jan-08 | Sorry! Here is the good link, you can choose the english language: http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/ The product pdf for the Bass Horn: http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/hornlautsprecher_downloads.php?produkt=basshor n&t=downloads&produkt_id=6 Look at the integrated Amplifier on the pdf, I don't like the connectors then the chips support, the reliability is compromise. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15265 Registered: Jan-08 | Complete product in english: http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/download/g2_files/_broschuere_g2_engl_web.pdf |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 86 Registered: Oct-10 | Thanks Plymouth! I'll still have to try later though. Mobile versions of websites leave a lot to be desired. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 87 Registered: Oct-10 | What I can't help but wonder is, where did the french guy (not french canadian) who yelled coward and then asked how you say coward in french went? Did Mr. Courageous tuck his tail between his legs and run away? It sure seems that way! Hello? How about his supporters? Where are they? What happened to them? I don't want to stir up more trouble Plymouth, but I have to wonder what happened. I can't imagine why someone would call someone else a coward, then turn tail and run! Did it get a little too hot in here? |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 88 Registered: Oct-10 | Where did they go? I guess they realized that we're right and they're wrong. Too bad they're not man enough to come in here and admit it. |
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Bronze Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 89 Registered: Oct-10 | There was another subject I wanted to discuss in this website, but I don't forum for it. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 131 Registered: Oct-10 | Back to your question Peter, you should take your time, visit different stores and insist on hearing different speakers with different amps. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1728 Registered: Oct-07 | Want some bass? Willing to do some DIY? You'll need a pretty tall room! Flexible design adaptable from 1 woofer per enclosure UP. http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/el-pipe-o.pdf I wonder if you could build a smaller version of this, for a normal sized room? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15431 Registered: May-04 | . The project is a quarter wave resonator, itself a variation on the simple Voight Pipe from decades ago; http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=voight%20pipe&type=. Sure, you can build a smaller QW pipe but the final length of the pipe's throat and the volume of the pipe's throat (and most especially in a "restricted terminus" pipe [QWRT]) termination point will determine the system resonance. You can build a folded version of the pipe but it was simpler to do as Pass did for a "project" and use the high rigidity of the Sonotube. You can build a QW pipe with the same resonant frequency as Pass's but unless you build it as Pass has done - using multiple drivers, you will compromise power handling and ultimately SPL's. However, if you build it with the same resonant freqency of the pipe coupled to an appropriate driver, you can get the same basic idea in a "normal" sized room. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15432 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.t-linespeakers.org/design/index.html http://www.t-linespeakers.org/design/classic.html (Risch is a take him or leave him author. Not everyone finds him helpful but many find his articles to be a good starting place.) http://members.shaw.ca/t-linespeakers/diy-11-apr-99/projects/yves/index.html The "straight lines" should look familiar; http://www.t-linespeakers.org/design/foldings/index.html http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/tqwp_e.html King's MathCAD programs are the bible for all quarter wave designs as of about ten years ago; http://www.quarter-wave.com/ Do a search engine for the Ausperger's contributions, his Alpha and Omega lines are the starting point for my speakers. The "predicted" final roll out is the -12dB per octave of a vented system rather than the -6dB of a sealed system though in reality the ML TL or QWRT will fall somewhere in between. Two impedance humps similar to a vented system. http://www.t-linespeakers.org/projects/steve/index.html http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-62037.html A "ML TL" (below) is a "Mass Loaded Transmission Line", a variation on a "restricted terminus" line. The termination of the pipe is now using a more common "vent" as you might find on a simple BR rather than a wide open termination with volume similar to the overall pipe. This can extend the useable bass extension of the system down approximately another 1/2 octave before F3. Ausperger's Alpha and Omega lines were the first (to my knowledge) QW's which employed this concept. Tim Forman was kind enough to send me the articles for this sort of pipe and they were the math I used for my speakers. Surprisingly simple as you need only a handful of numbers to predict system values. The "predicted" rollout is the -12dB common to vented systems and traditional TL's rather than the -6dB of a sealed system or infinite baffle. In reality the roll out is somewhat less steep than a common vented system. Twin impedance humps though. http://www.quarter-wave.com/Gallery/Gallery.html . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 134 Registered: Oct-10 | Or you could just get a subwoofer or 2. This will be easier, fit any size room and subs can get down well into the sub audio (below 20 Hz) range. Remember that whatever the bottom of the sub's frequency range is just where it starts to roll off at. Mine goes down to 27 Hz, then rolls off at 3 dB per octave. So it still has impact well below 20 Hz! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15433 Registered: May-04 | . "Then, for a filter that has an "Nth" number order, it will have a subsequent roll-off rate of 20n dB/decade or 6n dB/octave. So a first-order filter has a roll-off rate of 20dB/decade (6dB/octave), a second-order filter has a roll-off rate of 40dB/decade (12dB/octave), and a fourth-order filter has a roll-off rate of 80dB/decade (24dB/octave) ... " http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/filter/filter_8.html . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 137 Registered: Oct-10 | Ignoring me are we? |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 138 Registered: Oct-10 | I see why my challenge hasn't been taken up and won't be. Because Jan ignoring me CAN'T HAPPEN! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15434 Registered: May-04 | . Not when you say stupid things that are impossible. Back to ignoring you. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 140 Registered: Oct-10 | The only thing impossible is you ignoring me. Think you can ignore me for a whole month? Prove it! Go to the thread you started where the subject is a link to another thread and you posted links to still more threads, scroll down and read the post where I challenge you. Then post the words "I accept" before midnight tonight/1:00 am eastern. Then don't say anything at all to me until Thanksgiving Day. If you accept and then talk to me anyway, you have to leave here forever. Think you can do it? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15435 Registered: May-04 | . Sorry, leo, I typed it wrong. This is one of those simple mistakes that sticks in my head until I look at the numbers. Been doing this for years. I know it's double the roll out for vented but I always start too light. "The "predicted" rollout is the -12dB common to vented systems and traditional TL's rather than the -6dB of a sealed system or infinite baffle" Numbers should be -12dB for sealed and -24dB for vented; http://speakerdesignworks.com/Sealed_v_Vented.html A "-3dB" enclosure does not exist. . . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 141 Registered: Oct-10 | The thing about the sub rolling off at -3 dB was a trap. I just can't believe a boy as smart? as you would fall for that! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15522 Registered: Dec-04 | James, if there was any doubt that you are trolling, well, that is solved. Trapping? Really? goodbye. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 142 Registered: Oct-10 | It was a trap Nuck, a very obvious one. My subwoofer is a ferocious little beast in a room that reinforces bass like it's nobody's business. If the sub only rolled off at -3, I'd have a real problem. I would have to pad the walls! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15436 Registered: May-04 | . He responded to my post, "then rolls off at 3 dB per octave" "-3dB can't happen." I decided to edit it to show the filter actions so as not to respond directly to him. " James, if there was any doubt that you are trolling, well, that is solved. Trapping? Really? goodbye." Best thing IMO. He needs correcting but no more. . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 143 Registered: Oct-10 | Bottom line: Jan didn't take the challenge because he knows that there is no way he can ignore me for a whole month. You can find links that say anything you want whether it's right or wrong, but this challenge would have been proven for all to see. He would have slipped up and INcorrected me thereby losing his place here forever! He didn't take the challenge because he knew he couldn't make it a whole month w/o telling me anything. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1731 Registered: Oct-07 | I don't mind my vented sub rolling off so 'quickly'. Playing Saint Saens symphony #3, 'with organ' I can drop stuff off the walls with the 16hz pedal note. I won't play that piece again. Reflections in the windows vibrate. Some broadcasts have an infrasonic rumble. Especially when I listen to vinyl off of XM / Sirius radio. I just shut the sub off but still keep the level down. I don't want to hurt my panels with loud (if you could hear it!) LF input. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 148 Registered: Oct-10 | Try this Leo: Listen to "Save the Best for Last" by Vanessa Williams on your system. There is a heavy bass line that comes off the keyboard. If you hear a rattling sound coming directly from your subwoofer, turn the level down until the rattling goes away. You should be able to safely listen to symphony through the sub. If there is no rattle the first time through, you should turn the sub off for it. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1732 Registered: Oct-07 | sub is properly adjusted.....I have it set for maximum extension, not maximum output. One of Two ports is plugged. x-over about 35hz. 24db/octave lower limit of speakers...claimed <40hz. running full-range. phase properly adjusted. When I turned my panels around, I had to flip the phase switch to regain bass. Sub doesn't rattle. The windows and everything on the shelves DOES. The acoustic output of a pipe organ in a room for which it was designed is incredible. The low pedal note on a pipe organ is 16hz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_frequency The Saint Saens piece is noted for its use of organ and is considered a good test of bass...thus 'with organ'. How about the Telarc 1812 Overture? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15438 Registered: May-04 | . I believe you've placed the pedal note an octave too low, leo. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 149 Registered: Oct-10 | I have the Telarc 1812! It's awesome! I don't currently have any pipe organ recordings, but I've watched the wedding scene from "The Sound of Music" on my system numerous times. It shakes things up! |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1733 Registered: Oct-07 | Jan, If what my sub produces is 32hz, I've got some real, substantial problems! hearing, equipment, room......it'd all be on the table, so to speak. My main speakers which should have SOME output that low are dead silent. No, it is really 16hz. Sub won't go any lower, and indeed this is beyond its advertised specs.....I know, but not quite worthless, either....Movie effects down in the 20's are produced with authority and you can feel 'em in your chest. Some of the sound work in the Rings Trilogy is among the best. Gut rumble and stuff in the house at near-resonant frequency....or simply a 'forced vibration'... But, in any event I won't be doing that again soon. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 159 Registered: Oct-10 | I think you're right Leo, the low end of the sub's frequency range is the point where it starts to roll off at. My subwoofer goes down to 27 Hz, but that doesn't mean it drops to zero at 26 and below. I can feel stuff that happens in the sub audio range like residuals from the cannons in 1812. From having watched that wedding scene and attending churches with pipe organs, I think the lower pedal must go down to 16 Hz. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1736 Registered: Oct-07 | HSU rates my sub to 18hz +-1db. I don't believe that number. But, it does produce the low pedal note on an organ....the lowest full note of which CAN be 8hz and using a fundamental and 1/5 lower at the same time.....produce a 4hz note....Clearly, below human hearing, though elephants can probably make 'em out. I don't know of any recordings using that tuning, though the Saint Saens Symphony #3 'with organ' is on several recordings. I've played this disc in my car and on my computer with ZERO output of the low tones, as expected. The pedal tone is clearly lower than the 20hz test frequencies on the same disc and on the Rives disc. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 163 Registered: Oct-10 | A lot of what you're saying relates to the fact that subs can often carry the signal well below they're specs. Since the diameter of the voice coil is larger than that of a woofer, even a subwoofer that can only go down to 40 Hz, will perform better in both the sub bass and sub audio regions than a woofer that goes down to 25 Hz! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15441 Registered: May-04 | . "Since the diameter of the voice coil is larger than that of a woofer" That's impossible. "even a subwoofer that can only go down to 40 Hz, will perform better in both the sub bass and sub audio regions than a woofer that goes down to 25 Hz!" That is gibberish pure and very simple. It not only means nothing, if you try to figure out what is intended you run up against how speakers are designed. "Sub audio"? . |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15306 Registered: Jan-08 | Here is a big voice coil(5.1") for a 9" woofer with 7" membrane: https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=8822 |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15447 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.webmath.com/k8ipsub.html http://justbasic2u.tripod.com/number.html . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 174 Registered: Oct-10 | I see you're back to posting stupid faces like the childish idiot you are. This time the trap wasn't so obvious, but one you should have seen just the same. Why would a subwoofer only go down to 40 Hz? Subwoofer voice coils ARE of larger diameter than those of woofers the same size. I have removed the dust caps on old woofers and subs that I didn't care about and looked! If a sub only goes down to 40 Hz, everything below 40 Hz is filtered out! That's the only way a subwoofer could possibly begin to roll off at 40! "Sub audio?" BELOW 20 Hz! DUH! What a stupe! What a worthless stupe! A subwoofer that starts to roll off at 40 Hz will still go deep into the, YES, SUB AUDIO RANGE before the signal cuts out entirely. The sub I use with my PC only goes down to 40. Guess what! You can FEEL things happening that you can't hear because they're where? In the SUB AUDIO RANGE! I used to use that sub with a pair of floor speakers that went down to 25 Hz. With the sub turned off and no bass filtered away from the main (floor) speakers, they were not able to reach down as far as the 40 Hz sub. With the sub on and 80 Hz and below filtered away from the floor speakers, the bass was WAY deeper! EXPLAIN THAT KNOW IT ALL! |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 176 Registered: Oct-10 | Yes, 40 Hz and below is filtered out! The sub and the amp can both go way below that, but room size is a factor in how low a sub should go. A few subs on the market have adjustable filters for their low end so that they can be adjusted to different sized rooms! |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 177 Registered: Oct-10 | Hey Jan! I looked at your link about a large voice coil. You said it was for a 9" WOOFER with 7" membranes and a 5.1" voice coil. When I clicked on that link, guess what came up!?!?!? A SUBWOOFER! NOT A WOOFER YOU F***ING IDIOT! IF YOU'RE GOING TO "PROVE" ME WRONG, DON'T PROVE ME RIGHT INSTEAD MORON!!!!!!! |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 183 Registered: Oct-10 | SLAM!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15325 Registered: Jan-08 | Super You can deleted your posts here: https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/board-profile.pl To edit your posts click the upper right button of the windows of your post! Jan not posted this link but me! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15326 Registered: Jan-08 | Also check your back! Read this complaint from Jan: https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=22&post=1911045#POST1911045 |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 188 Registered: Oct-10 | Thanks Plymouth! I stood up for myself, but the posts will stand and the chips will land where they may. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 191 Registered: Oct-10 | Has anyone else clicked on the link and looked at the ultimate SUBwoofer? |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15329 Registered: Jan-08 | Super Check the same coil with 10" and 12" dimension! http://www.morelhifi.com/products/raw_subwoofers.html Resonant frequency at 21 hz, not too bad for a 12"! We can see that the motor(voice coil) is responsible for the low resonant frequency as well that the weight of part in movement! |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 193 Registered: Oct-10 | Thanks Plymouth! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15456 Registered: May-04 | . It is physically impossible for the voice coil of a driver to be larger than the overall diaphragm of the driver. "Since the diameter of the voice coil is larger than that of a woofer" Possibly, if your writing had greater clarity, you would be better understood. You would still be wrong but you would be better understood to be completely wrong. I have a small amount of forgiveness for P in this respect but this is your native language. . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 196 Registered: Oct-10 | I said that subwoofers have larger diameter voice coils than woofers do. You told me it was impossible! Then you posted a link saying it showed a 9" WOOFER with a 5.1" voice coil! What came up was a 9" SUBwoofer with a 5.1" voice coil. You messed up! Don't you get that? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15458 Registered: May-04 | . " This time the trap wasn't so obvious, but one you should have seen just the same. Why would a subwoofer only go down to 40 Hz?" "The sub I use with my PC only goes down to 40." There is no such term as "sub audio". It is clear you have no concept of drivers, woofers and subwoofers, sub-sonics and sub-bass, filters or any "sub" anything nor your fictious "-3dB" enclosure. You are a troll. . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 197 Registered: Oct-10 | I never said ANYTHING about the coils of subs being larger than the overall diaphrams of woofers! Where'd you ever get the idea that I said something like that? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15459 Registered: May-04 | . "I said that subwoofers have larger diameter voice coils than woofers do. You told me it was impossible! Then you posted a link saying it showed a 9" WOOFER with a 5.1" voice coil! What came up was a 9" SUBwoofer with a 5.1" voice coil. You messed up! Don't you get that?" Plymouth Platinum Member Username: Plymouth Canada Post Number: 15325 Registered: Jan-08 Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 - 06:22 pm: Super You can deleted your posts here: https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/board-profile.pl To edit your posts click the upper right button of the windows of your post! Jan not posted this link but me! https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=1911074#POST1911074 How plain does it need to be for you? . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 198 Registered: Oct-10 | If you can't read something as simple as that, don't comment on it! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15331 Registered: Jan-08 | Jan "It is physically impossible for the voice coil of a driver to be larger than the overall diaphragm of the driver." The diaphragm is the lower part which maintain in center the voice coil no? |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 199 Registered: Oct-10 | I was obviously talking about the difference in the size of the voice coils of the two types of drivers! How plain does this need to be for YOU?!?! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15460 Registered: May-04 | . "The diaphragm is the lower part which maintain in center the voice coil no?" No. Don't you two have a life somewhere else? . |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 200 Registered: Oct-10 | There IS such a term as sub audio. 1 Hz to 19 Hz is sub audio! Jan! Go have an adult change your diaper, then play in your play pen okay? That's a good little boy! |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 201 Registered: Oct-10 | Admit it Jan, you messed up here! Everyone can see it. you tried to prove me wrong and proved yourself wrong instead and now your trying to back out of it. There is no room for anyone to think that I was talking about anything other than the difference in voice coil diameters exclusively. You knew exactly what I meant, but being the spineless worm you are, you'd rather claim that you were confused. If you are confused by something as simple as what I said, then you are even stupider than I thought! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15332 Registered: Jan-08 | Sorry Jan! In french we call the diaphragm > membrane then the spider > suspension! I always like your answers with the little word that make you a stupid focking azz hole! I can return you the same question "Don't you have a life somewhere else? |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 202 Registered: Oct-10 | I don't think Jan has a life at all. How could he? |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 205 Registered: Oct-10 | Oh I see what happened PLYMOUTH proved you wrong! Either way, you've been proven wrong! Accept defeat! |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 209 Registered: Oct-10 | Again, the -3 dB enclosure was an obvious trap. I'm still ROTFLMAO that you fell for that one! You attack what I say, but you can't explain why you think I'm wrong. The term "sub audio" has been around for years. If you'd crawl out from under your rock now & then you'd know that! The 40 Hz thing was a trap too! I knew you'd attack that, so I said it, when you attacked, I proved it and now you're too childish to admit that and the fact that I know way more about audio than you ever have or ever will! Why don't you try using a sub that only goes down to 40 Hz with a pair of speakers that goes down to 25 Hz. Try listening with the sub off and the full signal going to the main speakers and with the sub on and 80 Hz down filtered away from the speakers? You won't because you're too much of a coward! (English works just fine) Or you'll do it and then lie about the results! |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 212 Registered: Oct-10 | Here's an idea Jan, have an old subwoofer and woofer with the same size cone handy (ones you don't care about)? Remove the dust caps. You know the dome in the center of the cone? Remove both dust caps. Something look lager in one than in the other? Just seeing the inside of the coil formers should tell you. I'll bet the coil former in the sub has a larger diameter than the coil former in the woofer. Why? Because the VOICE COIL in the sub has a larger diameter than the VOICE COIL in the woofer! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15469 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=1911171#POST1911171 |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1743 Registered: Oct-07 | My sub has a 2" vc. Goes to 18hz. (claimed, but I have no reason to doubt output at that frequency) woofer or sub? nothing is automatic here. There are many other factors at play from strength of magnetic field....usually in Teslas to stiffness of surround and the rest of the TS parameters.....DCR, inductance and all the rest. To make a blanket statement based solely on vc size it nutty. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 228 Registered: Oct-10 | Of course there are other factors Leo, but vc diameter is certainly the biggest one. Is it really necessary to point out the others? Not for me it's not! If it's really necessary to take everyone's hand like a kindergarten teacher and lead them through the world of reality, I guess I'll point out all of the details. This way I can't be accused of letting anyone else use their brain. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 239 Registered: Oct-10 | Leo, I asked the organist at my church and he said that the pipe organ can go down to 16 Hz IF a full 64 foot pipe is used. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1746 Registered: Oct-07 | Yes, What are you getting at?.......simple physics of resonant tubes. A quick perusal of the Wiki on frequency of instruments says something about 8hz and even lower.....which strikes me as nutty, if real. I mean, nobody can hear that low, not even an infant. Elephants? They probably can but have shown little interest in music appreciation. If the tube is closed...frequency halves. so, in some cases a 32' tube can be closed and produce the lower frequency. http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/EARS.htm This looks real interesting:: Somebody please do a book report. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15359 Registered: Jan-08 | Here is the sound of a 64' tube http://www.die-orgelseite.de/audio/atlanticcity_64ft.mp3 |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1747 Registered: Oct-07 | Plym, out of 100 computers, how many do you think could even come close to that tone? certainly no more than 1 or 2...... My sub does as well as can be expected with no doubling of the fundamental. I also don't like feeding that signal at any amplitude to my main speakers, which I run full range. I know the Saint Saens has this note, but am unfamiliar with any other music which has it. There are few instruments so equipped. Even the San Diego organ...perhaps the LAST municipal outdoor pipe organ in the world is not so equipped. BUT, it remains a must-hear experience for any music lover. San Diego even employs a 'Municipal Organist'...... If you can manage, it sounds best in cool, wet weather which is frequent in winter months. http://sosorgan.com/ |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 241 Registered: Oct-10 | A word of caution about wikipedia Leo. Yes, you can learn a lot from that site, but its reliablity is in question due to the fact that people are able to add stuff to it without verification. Many college professors don't allow their students to site wikipedia for this reason. You might want to filter the sub bass away from your main speakers. You might have to make other adjustments though. Personally, I like feeling big bassy booms and rumbles provided it's natural (system tuned properly, etc) That symphony would probably sound great with an 18 Hz sub. I like watching the scene in the first X-Files movie where the building explodes on my system. Even at a moderate volume, the whole house shakes! |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15365 Registered: Jan-08 | Leo and Super Here is the list of the largest pipe organ in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipe_organs#The_largest_pipe_organs_in_the_ world The Boardwalk Hall Auditorium Organ in Atlantic City, New Jersey is the largest of the world! |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1748 Registered: Oct-07 | Wiki can be relied upon for matter of science and technology, where the treatment can be verified with math. Pipe organ tubes, classifications and physics shouldn't be all that bad as it is straight physics. Most of the history part is pretty straightforward, too, with few mysteries. Wiki can generally be replied upon for terminology, too, and is nearly always a good place to begin a technical search. Trust but verify. I sat and listened to this organ play for over an hour. The Church Organist was taking practice. Being the quiet, retiring sort, I only had to 'shhhhhhh' people ONCE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sint-Bavokerk A most remarkable sound and 'alive'. I'll find my pictures if anyone cares, but it'll take a while. I have to scan the negs to get them in computer form. I'm sure Plyms 75amps and IMF speakers would make me feel like I was in the 5th row, again. And Super, with no respect whatsoever, mind your own business about my sub setup. It is quite seamless and in the 8 sided, vault ceilinged room in which it is located, pretty uniform thruout. I messed about for WEEKS finding my original location, off-corner in the plane of the panels and a foot from the side wall to be very good. And NO i'm not going to run speaker wires thru the subs cross over and back to the mains. Ain't gonna' happen. The Maggies roll off nicely and the crossover is set at about that 'lower limit'. So, there is NO low/midbass bloat and bass remains pretty tight. I like Jazz and the string bass is killer. Kettle drums in classical music also very good. Pipe Organ? Blow your hair back. Movie effects? Terrific and you can feel some near-infrasonics coming up thru the furniture and vibrating your chest. I'm certain you could do better. But, if you show up at my door, I'm calling the cops. Even if you have a nice bottle of single malt. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15377 Registered: Jan-08 | LOL! Leo Could you accept us with a 12 pack? |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 245 Registered: Oct-10 | No Leo, I don't plan on visiting you. I'm not psycho anyway, I assure you. If you're happy with your set up, enjoy it. I just thought you were a little concerned about how much bass was coming through the mains. If you know what size capacitors to use and can find non-polarized electrolytics that size, you could run filters in your speaker line. I prefer an upright bass too. That's probably why 60s and earlier jazz is what I listen to most. I have a few classical recordings too, but none with pipe organs yet. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 246 Registered: Oct-10 | Another thing you could do if you have either separates or an old receiver with pre-amp out/power amp in jacks, is put an electronic crossover between your preamp and power amp. This would be altogether better than the caps. Plymouth, we'd better bring a case and be willing to walk through a metal detector! Seriously Leo, I had a...believe it or not,..peaceful conversation with Jan. Now I know why everyone thinks I'm a psycho killer. He told me about nobler and other crazies. Don't worry, I've never killed or injured anyone and I'm sure I never will. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1751 Registered: Oct-07 | You two guys don't get it. Stay the heck away. No offering accepted. If I had a dog, I set him on you. Super, I don't care if you and Jan mate for life. YOUR vulgarity is what finally pissed me off. If you manned up, apologized for your poor behavior I'd think about you in a more favorable lite. Technically, you're still a schmuck, and second string at that. I am not going to install a series hi-pass with my crossover. The speaker is setup for bi-amping/wiring thru the removal of jumpers. One amp to the hi section.....and the h-pass crossover....the other set of inputs to the lo section and ITS crossover. I'm about to wire this feature out of the circuit and the fuse is a goner, too. Too many connections, terminals and other odd bits of wire. I have some other plans for my system. New frames with external crossovers for the panels. First crossover will be just stock, with the removal of the fuse and excess connections. I'm not interested in bi wiring or amp.... So, one set of ins....another PAIR of outputs to the panel ....push on tabs is how Magnepan does it. Plan 'b' is to upgrade all parts to 'premium' levels and remove the iron core inductor in favor of an aircore. I've got a prototype....not good enough....coil winder on the floor next to me. I need to decide on coil dimensions for a wire buy. Looks like #13 or #14 will be fine. I want to maintain as close to standard DCR as possible so I don't effect frequency balance (already slightly bass heavy, see stereophile review) and crossover point. The current holdup is how do I measure my home built inductors? I don't have an LCR meter and can't even afford one of the kits. I have a spreadsheet / calculator buried in my docs somewhere and the 'ideal' inductor is within 5% of stock for DCR. That's certainly within manufacturers tolerance of the OEM. Caps will go upscale, too, but with full knowledge of potential changes caused by 'parts ain't parts'...... Wooden frames and stand of mostly proprietary design. I've seen nothing like what I've drawn. |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 247 Registered: Oct-10 | Your first paragraph: Easy Leo! We're just joking! We're not coming over. Gotta admit that was funny though, "...bring a case and be willing to walk through a metal detector!" As for your insults, I'm numb to those now and you know where I stand regarding the apology issue. The rest of your post: As long as it sounds good to you, that's what matters. That's a long involved project you're describing. Do you have another set of speakers you can use while doing that? Remember to allow for more time than you think it should take in case something crazy happens. You never know! I re-wired the floor speakers I had. That was an enjoyable project. I had the luxury of having a pair of cheap speakers to practice on. I listened music on the Yamaha's while re-wiring the cheap speakers and I listened to the cheap speakers while doing the Yamahas. Those Yamahas were incredible when I was finished with them! The only modification I'd like to do right now, or when my speakers go off warranty, is to make them bi-wireable. Then bi-wire them using output A for the tweeters and B for the woofers (B for bass). I'd probably try Plymouth's idea for a bi-wire cable before buying a pair from Monster. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15382 Registered: Jan-08 | Super Before my actual wire I tried the 8 gauge Monster cable for 2 years but the problem was the oxidation of the cable which cause degradation of the sound. A thing that you can try is add two 6 800 uf in the power supply of your subwoofer to see the improvement then report the result here! Leo That was a joke then I'm too far of you! |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 248 Registered: Oct-10 | Actually, Plymouth, adding more capacitors to anything is not in the plans right now. My subwoofer has an ample power supply and the capacitors therein are more than adequate Thanks for the tip though. You might need to go to the recovery group for capacitor addicts "microferads anonymous" Just kidding. That's a good point too Leo. I don't even know where you live, nor do I care to. I'm guessing you're a good distance from me though. So what makes you think we're even going to show up? If you were or ever become interested in doing things like what I suggested, I can tell here online. It's really easy too. If you can modify your speakers the way you plan to, what I suggest is a piece of cake in comparison. |
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