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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 21 Registered: Mar-06 | Anyone who has experience with this thing ? I heard many good stories about it. It is still 1800 euro's (2400 dollars). It should make a big change. How does it technically work ? Thanks! iMac with Airportexpress (analog) Meridian 206B Audio Innovations Classic 25 Epos ES 11 interlink: Van de Hul D 102 mk 2 Sp. cable: Terminator MIT 3 |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15272 Registered: May-04 | . I don't see any information that gives away specific "secrets" of what the BP unit is doing. A good guess at what appears to be happening is the BP unit is placing a valve (tube) rectifier in line with the existing amp's actual power supply rectifier. The existing amp's rectifier is not being replaced so there will be some degree of still facing the compromises made in the original design but there are advantages to beefing up a power supply. Additionally, the BP probably has increased the capacitive storage of the power supply providing a bit more "backbone" to large dynamic swings and power hungry bass notes. Additional p.s. capacitance is virtually always a good thing though you have to consider the demands of your system. Most of the issues people have nowdays with tube amplifiers is poor speaker selection. Direct coupled, solid state amplifiers have very low output impedances which will normally translate into high damping factors with a typical (non-reactive) eight Ohm load resistor or by working numbers strictly on paper. Speaker manufacturers have for decades designed as if the amplifier designers must simply catch up to their BS designs of low impedance, high phase angle, brutal loads. The watts-is-cheap and nobody-uses-tubes-any-more attitude is prevalent in mass market speaker design. At the low end of the price range you have to assume they are mostly right on both counts. You have to know a bit about tubes and speakers to have the sense to match the two properly and it is seldom done in the big box stores. If the speakers you're using are meant for high current amplifiers, then you've chosen wrong for a tube amplifier. Ideal speakers for a tube amp (whether transformer coupled or OTL) will be of the high and stable impedance variety along with a reasonably high sensitivity(87dB or above) and, when paired with such a load, tube amps will deliver voltage in abundance (in most cases) and show the advantage of a tube amp's smoother clipping characteristics. In other words, tube amplifiers do not produce large current swings - they do voltage - and speakers meant for high current amps should not be used with the vast majority of tube amplifiers unless you do have a budget for SOTA products. So good and proper speaker selection geared to the abilities of the amplifier can IMO in many ways make up for any need for more capacitance in the power supply. Probably, some people would argue with that conclusion - probably, they still haven't heard a tube amp with the right speakers. Tube rectification is a more debatable topic still. Some (people who have nothing better to worry about) will claim tube rectification is the only way to actually hear what a tube amp is intended to do. It is the "purest" form of tube amp design as it harkens back to the original tube designs of the early 1900's. Until the 1950's there was no such thing as an amplifier that didn't use tube rectification. Others feel a solid state rectifier is fine in a tube amp and you should worry about other issues. Many fine sounding to-this-day vintage tube amplifiers use solid state rectification and benefit from the advantages such a design offers. Just as there is not one amp which will satisfy all tube amp owners, there is no one "right" way to design a tube amp. Tube rectification typically allows for a "less stiff" power supply - something higher power supply capacitance then makes up for - which provides the micro- to macro-dynamic swings people enjoy from good tube amps. What sets a low wattage tube amp apart from the high wattage, high dollar items from companies such as Audio Research, CJ and VTL? Quite a few things actually but first and foremost will be the power supply. The BP unit seems to suggest it can provide the sort of power supply you would normally find on high wattage, high dollar tube amps and allow you to add it to your low wattage, low(er) dollar tube amp. The wisdom of adding this to a low wattage tube amp is somewhat questionable IMO. First, there are other issues to be considered rather than just trying to apply BandAids to what you have purchased. You need to realize what you actually have and how much value there is in improving a budget oriented product. While the quotes all indicate an improved sound quality with the addition of the BP unit, how much more sound quality could you buy if you simply invested the same amount of money in an overall better quality product than you already own? Wouldn't you expect there would be additional gains to be found in improved circuitry and better parts selection which might also go to improving the amp's reliability and resale value? While there are things which apparently can be said for the good about the BP unit, this strikes me - if I have the ideas right - as just another approach to tweaking something that probably doesn't deserve to be tweaked but rather replaced. The one single advantage I would expect from the BP unit is you will not alter the basic sound of your present amplifier so much as you will make it more like an amplifier with a better power supply - which it supposedly will be. However, just about any change in actual amplification gear will result in a change in overall sound quality. So, if you really, really like the amplifier you own but want the advantages of a better power supply, then the BP unit would be a reasonable approach I suppose. Otherwise, I would advise just moving the old amp into the trade in bin and moving up the ladder to a better amplifier overall. . |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 22 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks for your reply. It is a very interesting way of looking at this matter. One thing i must tell: the power supply is really replacing the power supply of the tube-amp. The powers supply has it's own powertransformer and especially tube-rectifier and choke! 2 things seem to be different: 1. the DC voltage will be stronger because of the choke. 2. the tube rectification has no 1,4 V threshold in comparison to the solid state diode-rectifier. People rave about all this and i can understand some difference for the better. But: so far i never heard the difference. I like the insight in the music (space, focus) the (standard) amp gives me. I hear much more information with this (low-priced) amp then with any other (solid state) amp i tried in the system. Maybe i should just go for it as i read and hear this is THE modification for this (and other amps) |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15283 Registered: May-04 | . How can it replace the existing power supply without doing surgery on the amp? I only scanned a few articles about this unit but I gathered you plugged the existing amp into this unit. I can see this unit doing very much what the original Tice Power Block did, provide a much higher capacitive storage through numerous smaller supply caps for the existing ps to draw from and dramtically lowering the output impedance of the AC source. But the exisiting ps remains in your amp, correct? The Tice was a great improvement on virtually all amplifiers at the time but its greatest improvement was on amplifiers with rather sub-par power supplies which could benefit from another 65 pounds of transformer and caps. Of course, adding a $2500 power supply to a $500 amplifier didn't make much sense in the long run. Eventually decent (and higher priced) manufacturers caught up to many of the concepts the Tice employed and the Tice became less and less attractive as it's cost and limitations in many systems became apparent. The tube rectification is IMO questionable as an add on. Impedance again comes into play and a solid state rectifier should have a lower impedance which will allow for faster swings of voltage with more current available. The benefits here would depend on the construction of the existing amplifier and once again how well or how poorly the power supply has been designed and implemented. How are solid state replacement recitifers usually sold to tube amp users? To "stiffen" the power supply and make the amp respond more like a transistor amp in the bottom end. Whether any "threshold" is noticeable is a question of how well overall the amp is designed IMO. At best I would say you are talking trade offs and you could effectively argue for going either direction. I've heard great sounding tube amps with both tube and solid state rectification. However, once you decide to go tube, then you begin to argue which tube type is best for the job and that just takes you down another rabbit hole. If you intend to run this through most AC conditioners on the market, you've just choked down most of what this unit apparently accomplishes before the unit actually comes into play in the chain of events. Maybe you should go for this but I would still strongly urge you to consider what your money might buy in a higher priced amplifier before you jump to this square. If you're new to tubes, my advice would be to not get caught up in change just for the sake of change. One disadvatage of tubes is they have an extra half century of arguments about which is the best way to implement a design. . |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 25 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks again Jan, But.... the amp is being surged! The external power supply provides the HT-power for the amp. It replaces the power-supply of the amp, leaving only the powersupply to the tube-heaters (cathodes) to the amp's supply. It has its own transformer, tube-rectifier and coil! Look for more info on the Borderpatrol-site, and tell me again what you think of it, if you like. Thanks, Peter |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15298 Registered: May-04 | . Ok, now I see the unit does require surgery; http://www.borderpatrol.net/psuind.htm This changes my opinion slightly but not totally. What I now see the decision coming down to is the choice between a PrimaLuna - for example - with the BP unit added or just simply stepping up to, say, a McIntosh MC275 for roughly the same dolars. I would still take the McIntosh unadulterated. Better transformers and better parts along with better design, construction and higher reliability/resale/value for the dollar. IMO better sound. So, this still comes down to what amplifier you're intending to upgrade and whether it's a wise decision to sink money into a lower priced amplifier. If you truly like the sound quality you have with your present amplifier and can see no further improvement in subjective overall component quality/value as I've described above, then buy the BP. If you are convinced your present amplifier cannot be improved upon in any way other than a much larger and better designed power supply, you should buy the BP unit. I just don't know of many amplifiers that actually fall into the category of not being bettered by a higher quality amplifier. And those that I do know of, they already have a pretty decent power supply which is what made them superior in the first place. My earlier comments regarding speaker selection also would play a large part in my decision. I'm just not fond of the idea of savaging an amplifier just to satisfy the desires of some speaker designer who thinks 2 Ohm loads are fine and dandy. . |
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New member Username: DegaswryPost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-11 | Neither of you have fully appreciated what BorderPatrol are doing. The PSU they make is a unique item, not because it is the only external PSU made for tube amplifiers, but because it is a choke input filter design. The way it works is significantly different to the tube rectifier supplies used in other tube amps which all use capacitor input filtering. To my knowledge there are no manufacturers using choke input filtering for tube power amps except BorderPatrol themselves. Theoretically, a choke input filter design has superior voltage regulation and pulses the power transformer much less than a capacitor input filter so it should give better dynamics and bass and a lower noise floor. Does it work? I have heard it's affect on an Audio Note Meishu single-ended amp which uses a tube rec/cap input and also an Audio Innovations S500 EL34 push-pull which uses a solid state bridge PSU. In both cases it was profound with much better bass and dynamics but also improved clarity and refinement. In fact in both cases, everything was better. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16408 Registered: May-04 | . Choke type power supplies are now being recognized as a "desireable" way to smooth the AC input to any amplifier, solid state or tube. They typically show up on tube amplifiers from the small, independent builders or from the less well known companies you can find in a few dealerships across the country. Which companies are using choke type supplies? I'd have to do a search to come up with names right now but I believe you'll find chokes being employed in several SET amps and it's possible the current Audio Note products also use this technology. The re-issue of the MC 275 from McIntosh would seem to have retained the original choke type regulation used in the original Mac designs though I don't know if Mac is using chokes on all of their other current tube products. The trend back to using chokes seems to have begun in earnest when the McIntosh and Marantz tube amps from the 1960's were re-introduced a few years back. The Mac had used a choke in its original 1950-60's tube designs and, to my recollection, so did the Marantz. With the success of the Mac MC275 re-issues the concept of choke reguation seemed to pick up interest in the diy camps and then in the production of for sale components. Possibly, this was just as idea which eventually worked its way back into favor or possibly this was an idea that caught on as one more look backwards into the history of how to build amps correctly, as opposed to with the least possible expense, continued to march forward. "The PSU they make is a unique item, not because it is the only external PSU made for tube amplifiers, but because it is a choke input filter design. The way it works is significantly different to the tube rectifier supplies used in other tube amps which all use capacitor input filtering." My recollection is chokes are working their way into several of the high end AC power line conditioners now available. No? . |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 27 Registered: Mar-06 | 1/2 a year ago i bought a new Cayin a55t tube-amp. The investment of 1800 euro's for a power supply only, felt not good. The new amp costed me about 1400 euro. It has a choke in its power supply, as many new tube-amps have nowadays, albeit not a choke input filter i think. Also it has KT88 instead of EL34. This new amp sounds more relaxed and more open and has better bass and projects better space. However i still also like the sound of my old amp (Classic 25). It sounds more cosy which is sometimes fine. But it is for sale now. Anyway thanks for responding! |