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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 362 Registered: Jan-09 | I am contemplating buying a NAD c372. I can buy a used one for $375 or a demo with factory warranty for $499. I would prefer to have a warranty but don't want to spend that much. Does NAD equipment hold up? Should I be concerned about about used? Which is the best way to go. The used one is a second owner unit that is on Audiogon auction starting at $350 with no bidders so far. I offered $375 shipped. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15047 Registered: May-04 | . Spend the extra money and get a warranty. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12963 Registered: Feb-05 | With NAD, I agree. They are decent sounding amps but they do have service issues. Buy new if you can. Don't you already have an NAD amp...? |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 363 Registered: Jan-09 | Yes, I have the 325. Thanks for the feedback, The Saturday Audio has a demo with full warranty. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2412 Registered: May-06 | If you already placed a bid on the NAD on Audiogon you may well be on the hook for it unless you get outbid. I suggest you change the maximum down to the minimum bid. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12966 Registered: Feb-05 | Does the 325 not have enough balls or why are looking to change? You may want to consider another brand of amp, perhaps a used Mac. |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 364 Registered: Jan-09 | I've not bid on it. I would like something with more balls lol. Mac what? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12968 Registered: Feb-05 | http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1284508498&/McIntosh-MA6300-Inte grated-Amp Take it from someone with experience. I've wasted a lot of money with lateral moves. If you are going to upgrade...wait until you can make it worthwhile. |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 365 Registered: Jan-09 | Thanks for the advice Art but the Mac is way out of my price range. Not sure I would ever want to spend that much to be honest. I understand about the lateral move though. I guess I didn't consider this to be one. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 722 Registered: Dec-06 | One would think a 372 would be a lot ballsier than a 325, and more than a lateral move. When I think of a lateral move I would think NAD 325 to Cambridge Audio 350A. I understand the 325 and 372 will both have that NAD house sound, which could be seen as a negative (unless you enjoy it), but you'd definitely be moving up to a whole new range of power. Of course, Mac is on a whole 'nother level altogether, and making that kind of move would be ideal for many of us but also not one that most of us can swing any time soon. But I would think the 372 should be a significant step up, otherwise NAD might want to reconsider what they are doing. Is it worth $500 though? I guess you'll only know once you've heard it. |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 366 Registered: Jan-09 | That was my thought too Dan.l believe the power of the 372 will benefit the Wharfedales I have better than the 325. I don't mind the sound of NAD. I am open to other IA's but it still has to be a budget amp. I just found out that the Saturday Audio 372 is used not a demo. I guess the question is do I want to risk buying a used amp (of any brand)? |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 723 Registered: Dec-06 | I would imagine if you buy from Saturday Audio if there are any problems with the unit they would be able to help you out (though you'd be on the hook for the cost). It's likely that they have tested the unit and know it works. I'm not sure how things work if you buy from an individual...if they say the unit works fine then it probably does. Maybe a dealer offers more assurance in that regard. If there is a problem I would guess you'd have to contact the distributor or NAD yourself and hope they can help. Again you'd be on the hook for any costs. As long as NAD or the distributor are helpful then I'm not sure I see much difference. I tend to prefer buying new, for obvious reasons, though I did buy my Quad speakers from Audiogon (from a reputable seller) and they are in perfect shape. If I were you I'd try to find out if there are any differences between the two units. I see the one being offered that is not from Saturday Audio has some scratches on the front faceplate. If the Saturday Audio amp is in perfect cosmetic shape then that may be worth it for you...then again maybe the savings are more important. It's hard to be of too much help because I doubt any of us can say definitively which is the better route to take. It looks like there are trade offs with either one. |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 367 Registered: Jan-09 | Thanks again Dan. The Saturday Audio unit is a 90 day warranty. One of the reasons I posted up was to think before I buy. Kind of a sanity check. I don't want to make an impulse purchase or a lateral move. The more I think about it the less inclined I am to by used. I was rationalizing the purchase by thinking that I could upgrade for a couple hundred dollars (if I buy used) after I sell my unit. I may be better off staying put. |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15109 Registered: Jun-04 | my 545 nad cd player went out in about a year just so you know....the 372 is fine....theres a slim chance i might sell my 372 but i have to compare it to my other amp first....I personally like the sound of the 372 but my other amp has more power |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3920 Registered: May-05 | The 372 is a bit better than the 325 to my ears. Its still an NAD, which is either a good or bad thing, depending on your goals. If you really like the NAD sound and this is most likely the last time you upgrade for a long time, then you'll most likely be happy. If its a pit stop on the way to bigger and better things, you're probably better holding off until you can make a bigger step up. Everyone's budget and priorities are personal. Nothing wrong with spending Mac money if that makes sense to you. Nothing wrong with not spending that much too. If going down the NAD road, I'd look at Spearit Sound and/or DMC Electronics. Both are authorized and sell refurbished NAD gear. Neither has a 372 or equalivilant right now though. I haven't bought from either store either. |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 368 Registered: Jan-09 | Stu, I doubt I move beyond a 372 for some time. Sean, let me know, I may be interested in your 372. I would prefer to buy used from someone I can trust. |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15110 Registered: Jun-04 | no problem bro |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12969 Registered: Feb-05 | The 372 is essentially a 325 with more power. It may sound a bit better but not enough to justify the difference unless you need the power for your speakers, and you don't unless you changed out speakers. Mac was just a suggestion as this board seems to be quite fond of them, A used Bryston B60 can be had for less than a grand. More in line with the kind of sound I like, the Unison Research Unico P's can be bought for less than a grand NOS or used. It's a great sounding amp and a big upgrade over any NAD. If you are still running the Wharfedales then you may be better off looking at sources or just buying more music. Your system is made up of like pieces now and probably sounds pretty good. Don't get me wrong the Unico would make the Wharfies sing a very pretty song! Still not sure why you were looking at the 372. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 724 Registered: Dec-06 | Interesting, I always thought that moving up the line that much should yield a significant improvement, but I guess if all you are doing it buying more power that you don't need then you aren't really changing a lot. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1389 Registered: Oct-07 | There's enough space between NAD and MAC so you don't need to go from NAD to the MAC level in a single bound. The little Bel Canto integrated gets reasonable press, satisfied users and can be had with a serviceable USB input. |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 369 Registered: Jan-09 | I was under the impression that the Wharfedales would benefit from more power that is why I was looking at the 372 plus it isn't a big step up in price (if I buy used) and sell my 325. I figure that I might have to spend $100-$200 out of pocket to get a used 372. Maybe it is a case of cabin fevor with these 100 degree days in Texas! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15235 Registered: Dec-04 | Mord, if you think that you need just a little more of the same thing that you have, then move to a heavier amp. "If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got". |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 370 Registered: Jan-09 | You are right Nuck. Ultimately it is my decision. I appreciate the input from everyone because It helps make an informed decision. I guess the question I should have asked then is will the Wharfedale benefit from 150 watts versus the 50 watts I have now? If the answer is no or not a noticeable difference then maybe it is not worth it. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15237 Registered: Dec-04 | Mord, i do not know if you will benefit from the new amp with the 3 watts that you use. |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 371 Registered: Jan-09 | Excuse my inexperience, but if we only need 3 watts why are there amps with 50 times more available? The whole think has me confused. I doubt many responding to this thread are using 3 watt amps either. So, why do we need more than 3 watts? |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1397 Registered: Oct-07 | When I had an amp with power indication, lighting it up was a sure sign it was too loud. At normal levels, it'd flicker. This was with speakers far less sensitive than most. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 995 Registered: Jul-07 | It's all speaker and listener dependant Mordecai. If your speakers are reasonably efficient, and you listen at reasonable levels, most people only use a few watts of their amplifiers potential reserves. Now, if your speakers don't sound their best until they have some serious current running through them, and you like to listen LOUD, then yeah you may need a 150W amplifier with high current potential. Some people decide to buy a high power amp just so they don't limit themselves to future speaker purchases. Others (like myself) have pretty lightweight amps, and just plan to run efficient speakers. Although, the two pairs of speakers I have on hand right now aren't overly efficient.....they still work fine with my 15W and 30W amps......small listening room and all. A pair of highly efficient speakers is in the cards at some point. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 725 Registered: Dec-06 | I think a only a few watts are used during the majority of playback, however I believe more are needed during loud, dynamic parts. And of course, as mentioned, if speakers are inefficient or you want to listen loudly in general. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 372 has greater peak current output and that should at least improve dynamics, if you feel that is lacking. The Evo2 are probably an average load...not the easiest of speakers, but not among the hardest either. I would love to see some measurements of both the Evo2 and Quad L2 series speakers, just to get a better idea, but these are two that I haven't been able to track down online. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 997 Registered: Jul-07 | Here's an experiment you can do for yourself to see. Get a multimeter and set it to measure volts. Put on a fairly dynamic cd and turn it up to about the loudest you would normally listen. Take a measurement across the terminals of one of your speakers. You'll see the voltage fluxuate with the dynamics of the music, so make a note of what it reads during quiet passages, and where it peaks during the loudest passages. If you assume an 8 ohm load as an average (although in reality your speakers are likely above or below that at any given time) you can calculate Power (watts) and Current (amps). Use this link to do your calculations; http://www.crownaudio.com/apps_htm/designtools/ohms-law.htm For instance, if you have a reading of 4 volts during a loud passage, and assume an 8 ohm resistance, your system is producing roughly 0.5 amps, and 2 watts. You may be surprised to see how loud your system is at only 2 watt peaks. Now, into 2 ohms the same voltage reading (4V) would indicate 8 watts (4x the power) and 2 amps (4x the current). So you can see what a low impedance load requires from your amplifier. Keep turing your stereo up to double the voltage reading to 8V, and your now at 4 amps and 32 watts and already at the limit of many low spec amplifiers. Multiply the resistance by 4 to get back to 8 ohms, and you divide the current and power requirements by the same factor of 4 (1 amp, 8 watts). I think you'll be surprised (as I was) at how little juice you're actually drawing from your amplifier.....even during louder passages......unless 1) your speakers are difficult to drive or 2) you really like your music loud. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4108 Registered: Feb-07 | Like Nuck loud? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4109 Registered: Feb-07 | That's an interesting post actually Chris. I have a brand new multi-meter kicking around, I should give this a try. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1401 Registered: Oct-07 | Most meters are not quite fast enough to 'grab' the peak sample. Some meters have 'peak hold' function which maybe CAN grab a peak. For better or worse, this feature may be something the 'specs' could shed some light on. Scope is the way to go, and I am just becoming aware of what is called a USB scope. Yep, another thing to plug into your ever decreasing supply of USB ports. I don't know what is available 'used' but for casual use, an old scope would work fine. Combine a scope with a SPL meter and a test tone disk and you have the makings of enough data to drive yourself crazy. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15247 Registered: Dec-04 | Leo, can I retire now and come to live in your basement? I have this burning desire to drive myself crazy with data. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1405 Registered: Oct-07 | Certainly! However, you'll have to DIG your own burrow down there. MOST homes in California have NO basement. No kidding. Most are stucco / stick built and on slab. I guess they couldn't figure out where to put all that extra dirt! In my town, the dirt is so hard that when I was TRYING to dig post holes, I'd fill 'em with water to try and soften the dirt, come back 3 days later and the hole was still full of water. Imagine:: Volts / Frequency / SPL meter / Test tones. Do you have a USB scope yet? Bring it with you. Give me 30 days or more notice and I'll have a batch of Home Brew waiting.......a nice all malt ale. lightly hopped with a touch of Honey and Wheat. Brewed to an Imperial Stout strength. Do not use power machinery after drinking! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 998 Registered: Jul-07 | "Most meters are not quite fast enough to 'grab' the peak sample." For the purposes of the experiment, it will do the job Leo. We're not going to court with the results, just getting an idea where the amp is idling. There are lots of other nits one could pick with the protocol as well (I mentioned one being the 8 ohm load not really being a constant) but as long as we're not publishing the results I think we'll be ok. |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15115 Registered: Jun-04 | I kinda know what they are driving at mord because I went from 65 watts to 150 watts and still find I have to get it louder than my ears really want for things to sound right or balanced even with the 150 watts available....why is this guys? |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15116 Registered: Jun-04 | in other words what does it take in a piece to get balanced sound out of an amp at ANY low/reasonable volume level....assuming the speakers arent the ones at fault |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 999 Registered: Jul-07 | "what does it take in a piece to get balanced sound out of an amp at ANY low/reasonable volume level" Sean, I'm not at all sure how to answer this question. I've heard a 2 watt amp sound just beautiful at half volume on a pair of efficient speakers. The same amp will never sound good trying to drive a pair of Dynaudio speakers. They're not a match. You'd be wasting your time. Most Dyno's need juice, and quality juice at that. An inefficient speaker may never sound its best at low volumes, as too much energy is lost on its way to making music. If your amp has quality power supplies then it should be able to sound very nice at low'ish volumes with a good speaker match. If the speaker is inefficient and the amp underpowered (can't supply the current, or amps) then again, you have a mismatch. All this to say, there isn't a right number of watts to sound good. That number is very low with efficient speakers, and somewhat higher with a less efficient speaker but suitably matched amplifier. With a mismatched amp/speaker combination, there may not be a right number no matter where you turn the dial. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15250 Registered: Dec-04 | sean, try a different listening position. |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15120 Registered: Jun-04 | Well heres one for you. I just hooked up my parasound 1200 hca which I believe is 205 watts per channel and it sounds better than my nad 372 150 watts per channel did on the same speakers. And just like you are saying it wasnt the power that changed things because the whole characteristics of the speakers changed (from highs to lows). Needless to say im pleased with the match up of my nht classic 4's with the parasound. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1000 Registered: Jul-07 | There isn't a significant difference between 150 and 205 watts, but the current potential between the amps could be quite different. You may also just prefer the Parasound presentation to the NAD's.....hard to say. |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15121 Registered: Jun-04 | Your right I do prefer the presentation better with the paprasound but its not just that things play cleaner on the parasound than they do on the nad 372 with these speakers. At first I thought there was no music that the parasound would play without noticable mis step but i did find a few as I went through my catalog on the computer and yes all the files were loss less. The one thing i really like about the parasound is the bass is pretty tight something the nad didnt always present on the nht classic 4's but as I said more than that changed between the two receivers. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2413 Registered: May-06 | "what does it take in a piece to get balanced sound out of an amp at ANY low/reasonable volume level" Any consideration given to speaker placement or the room's effects on the sound? If there is a frequency bump or drop out caused by the room it will happen no matter how many watts are pushed? As you move around the room do you gain certain frequencies or instruments or lose some or have some diminish? |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15123 Registered: Jun-04 | ill play around with placement and see what happens |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4121 Registered: Feb-07 | Placement is everything Sean. I even went to the trouble of removing a fireplace from my room for better placement options. With amazing results, I might add. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15264 Registered: Dec-04 | Why do we never start with the free solutions? Too boring! No Christmas morning feeling about opening up the ...room! It came without ribbons... It came without tags... |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 372 Registered: Jan-09 | Sean, it sounds like you like the Parasound better than the NAD. Are you deciding which one to keep between the two? |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15132 Registered: Jun-04 | im going to keep the parasound....i do have one thing to mention to you. I still have to send the nad c372 in to be repaired since I knocked out the one channel hooking the mono amp I have wrong but it will be 100% when it comes back if your intrested in it also i have a pair of elt525t's I want to put up for sale whats a fair price for them guys....I payed 300 for them when i got them but they retailed for 799 at that time |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 373 Registered: Jan-09 | Yes, I am still interested depending on the price. How much do you think you want for it? Are you the only owner? What model is the Parasound? |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15133 Registered: Jun-04 | parasound 1200 hca....im not sure what I want for the nad c372 what do you think is fair |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 374 Registered: Jan-09 | I'm not sure what is worth although the one I'm watching on Audiogon still has no bidders at $350. You said yours needed repair so I'm interested to know what needs to be repaired. Did you say that you bought this new or used? |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15135 Registered: Jun-04 | I bought it new less than 2 yrs ago...as i said i hooked a mono amp up wrong to the receiver and blew out the one channel but its under warranty for 2 yrs so im going to send it back for them to fix it....if you can get it for 350 go for it because im not going to let mine go for that cheap |
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Silver Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 375 Registered: Jan-09 | I understand Sean. I wasn't implying that you should sell it for $350. I don't know what the market is. Once you get is back let me know how much. I am not in a hurry. |
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Platinum Member Username: Insearchofbass2 hifonics 2607s, 2dcSounds12xls SPL\idmax12SQ Post Number: 15136 Registered: Jun-04 | ok will do ill get to sending it back |