Hello all, been a while. Business is better, hope everyone is doing better, or as good as always.
Heres the question.
You go into a local shop(high end), that youve spent 18-25K at.......you are looking at a piece that is 7500.00, plus other accessories that will add up another 2500.00? You can get for 9K? or so. You are being loyal, and want to help out local shops, and they do have the gear you want..........BUT, while your there, you notice they have done remodeling............remodeling work that YOU do.......that they KNOW you do......and you were never called to even give a bid(which would have saved them more than they ever saved you btw) do you continue your loyalty? Or feel a bit slighted, and question if you should shop there again? Its a dilemma I am facing. Any opinion would be appreciated.
First, is it possible the job went to another good customer who may have spent a bit more?
Okay, if not then what would I do beside using a sledge hammer to show my disappointment. One of two things:
(a) Let them know your disappointment and that if they want your business, it's going to take a hefty discount.
(b) let them know your disappointment, let them know they missed out on your business now and in the future, and leave the shop as you wave goodbye with an extended middle finger. Or something along those lines.
Its a tough call, David. At the end of the day, everyone's gotta do what they've gotta do.
Maybe they felt you doing them the favor of giving them a great price was something they thought they couldn't/shouldn't reciprocate. It could have been a family member who did the work. Perhaps they did it themselves. Maybe it was a person who has done work for them or people close to them in the past. If the business is struggling, it could have been done by a person who worked out a very good payment plan for them.
The possibilities are pretty much endless. There must be a good reason for it IMO. Sometimes you're better off not asking why. They know what you do and didn't ask for one reason or another - justifiably or not. If they've got what you need and the price is right, buy form them. If not, don't feel bad for looking for a better deal; they obviously don't.
My father owns a auto repair shop, and I get where you're coming from. There's people who he's been giving business to for years that fix their cars elsewhere. One example is a family owned computer store. They're in the same community circle as my father, he only buys stuff from them, yet they've never given him a dime of business. He's never asked them why. They know what he does for a living, and if they needed his services, they'd have asked.
The middle finger was itching.....job was botched too! I believe they got the hint that I was a bit disappointed, but I never said I wouldnt return. As far as someone in my trade spending a bit more, I dont think so, it was actually stated to me that his "buddy" did flooring as well, and had seen the slow time, so he was probably broker than I was. Im thinking he was given the job based on "buddy" rules. (in my trade, audio is typically not what money is spent on!)
I wanted to point out all the mistakes in the work they had done, but honestly, as soon as I saw the new floor, I thought to myself "I will never spend another dime here, and, "you got fuched!" being a "high end" store, accepting shiiiit workmanship, and going with what I can only think was the very lowest bid?, Worst part is, I had just, not even a month before, sent my uncle in-law down there, who ended up purchasing 4500 worth of gear!!!!
Yes, more seriously David, I would agree somewhat with Stu. Probably best to make use of them if you can get a decent deal and good service. I might be better than trying out someone you don't know. Decent dealers may not always be so easy to find.
Still, I'd probably drop a hint of your disatisfaction along the lines of -
"Next time you are thinking of remodelling, I'd be more than happy to give you a quote."
David - "You know that I appreciate and trust you in your line of work, why else would I come here? You have been fair with me and have provided me good service and products."
Dealer - "Well Dave, I really appreciate your saying that. Yes we do our best for our Customers and value our relationships."
David - "Yes, that I can see. And while on that discussion, I see you have had some remodeling (repair) done in the shop. I sort of can see where you were going with it and I would like to offer to help you get there. Clearly you did not expect these flaws (mistakes, shortcomings) and I think I can rectify this for you. Apparently your objective was to minimize cost in this effort so perhaps we can barter on my refinishing this job for you."
Once again, Thanks M.R. Michael, I may just try your approach, the job was BAD, and there is certainly repairs to be done, unless they want a complete replacement sooner than later......
M.R. There is another store in town I have purchased from also, not minimal amounts either, whom have not remodeled, and are carrying another piece I like, so maybe I can work something out there as well?
Stu, I feel for your father. I can remember a time not long ago, when there was a question of whether or not high end dealers would still be around, and would high end pieces be available to audition?. Small businesses struggle to survive, and the internet deals would kill a small business. I chose to purchase from a local dealer to help keep tradition, and "service" in todays world. But, when the same token of loyalty, or gratitude isnt reciprocated, then what?
Stay positive. Tell them you'd like an opportunity to bid the next job or even be online to do any custom install work. You might want to point out (gently) that this isn't the best work you've seen. Be ready to prove your chops.
Wouldn't it be sweet to refinish the competitor's shop for them?? Make it a palace job, even if you miss the biggest profits on the job. Bring closeup pics!
There are "facts", and then there is a story about the facts. You know very few facts, and it's easy to make up a story from that, that upsets you. But it's still a story. You don't and won't know why they did what they did unless you ask. I'd advise against getting yourself worked up about this.
Back to Stu's comments, his Dad's example is perfect. He probably had lot's of Customers whom he never reciprocated business to, either because he didn't need their services, or he already had "a guy" he preferred to do business with. There were lots of places he purchased goods from that never brought in their car to him. So what ? You can only have one car guy, and you can't rethink who you get your services from every time someone in that business does business with you. You MIGHT rethink it if you weren't happy with the service your were getting, but why else ?
When business is good these types of questions don't come up. It's when times are tough and people are scratching to make ends meet. Understandable, but it doesn't change the facts.
Seems to me this is a great opportunity for you David,
As has been mentioned there are a ton of possibilities as to why the job was given to someone else but if I put myself in the store owners shoes the first thing I thought of was that I couldn't afford to hire a guy who could afford to shop in my store.
Does that make sense? With all of the mistakes being made we can easily assume that his "buddy" better not be charging him much.
The store owner would probably appreciate an offer to help finish the job the right way for some consideration of his merchandise.
Nuck, good to see you too! Hope things are going well. I hope to present that to the competitor. Yes, it would be sweet to go in and do custom work (anywhere for that matter, is always fun) And if/when it happens, I will certainly provide pics.
Chris, The only fact that concerns me, is that not even an opportunity to provide the work was presented. There was certainly no obligation on their part to include me in the process, I understand that. But nonetheless, it stings a bit, knowing some hack got a job they shouldnt have, helping him stay in business.... and the offer was made by myself a few years ago to provide the service.
Jim, good point, I honestly never looked at it that way, Thanks for your input.
Is that business on 10th in Portland, David. I don't find that dealer particularly reliable. Nice fella though. Good to see you back and with business improving.
"There was certainly no obligation on their part to include me in the process...."
You should really just stop your sentence right there. No buts. I know it's painful to a skilled person to see shoddy workmanship in his/her craft. Especially when you could have done better work potentially at a lower cost. But hey, that "hack" may have a family to feed too.
You're making it personal and it just isn't. They weren't obliged in any way to offer you the work, so you should just let it go.
No, not the one on 10th......they did move though, to 14th? I believe. And I found that outfit to be nice enough for sure, but when knowledge of gear is figured in........................well, lets just say, they are nice enough!
Chris, Im not really sure what to say to you. Im not making anything "personal". And youve only stated what I have, with a twist. I was just asking (in the original post) basically, what would you do. But thanks for enlightening me nonetheless.
"Chris, Im not really sure what to say to you. Im not making anything "personal". And youve only stated what I have, with a twist. I was just asking (in the original post) basically, what would you do. But thanks for enlightening me nonetheless."
I'm not trying to enlighten you. You asked for "any help appreciated", so I gave you my two cents. Apparently that's not what you meant. Fair enough.
I continue to listen to Pink Floyd daily! Finding I really like Jack Johnson as well, throw in some clapton and Im good! How about yourself?
Nuck,
Looking at the statement v2, along with the classe SSP800, I like both, but am leaning towards the statement. My AVM20 has no HDMI, and Im wanting to enjoy 1080p, along with the bonus of losing some of the connections that clutter the back of the rack. I have also looked at the integra 80.1, but am real hesitant on that piece as I would lose a vast amount of audio quality.......
Nuck, Yes, continued, and completed. Not at shop I started thread about. Ended up with the SSP800, and Oppo BDP83 SE. HOLY SHEEEET. I couldnt be more impressed. Both pieces. I was pretty proud of my Anthem. Was. Got a pretty good deal on the Classe too. I havent completely dialed system in, but the very little I have done, took my system to a whole new level. Classe did it right, and really lets the Aerials shine. More open, detailed, and words dont explain the new depth which was pretty darn good with the Anthem to begin with.
I will follow up with a better review once all is completely dialed in. BUT, if anyone is contemplating the Classe, or Oppo, dont hesitate, there is no dissapoitment to be had!
David. After 13 years of fixing everything and anything, remodeling and installing new and saving them thousands and thousands of dollars for a little school system in ND, Total Loyalty, time of my own. I had to learn to thank the lord for what I have. I was sent out the door with no warning. I know who I am and what I am. And that is a good person. Their loss and soon to be my gain. Day by day..
After initial HDMI quirks with original SSP, Chelsea Audio stepped up and got Classe to replace with new unit. Since then........I have toyed with this processor, and have to say, it is pretty much flawless when it comes to sound reproduction. As you all know, I am a huge fan of Pink Floyd. And, as ridiculous as this may sound, there is a depth I didnt even know existed in their recordings until adding this unit. (yeah, owners pride could come to mind) but, being as non-partisan as possible, this piece really does get out of the way, and at the same time, bring to life, depths that I really had only heard on a few other systems, or for that matter..live. Seperation, and accuracy are goose bump fun! Ease of use is an understatement. All touch, and endless, but effective, and useful. Got into the parametric EQ just a bit as my room is not ideal for bass especially, and quickly erased some nodes that I had taken care of with the anthem, but resurfaced with the SSP. This thing is clean, clean, clean. Tight, accurate, and with range that honestly gives the sense of being in the studio. Couldnt be happier. If you have access to get a listen........get a listen! Art, since I know you are able to visit Ptld stores, I know you've been to Chelsea, these guys (kyle in particular) went above and beyond anything Freds ever did. I found a new shop!
Some serious collecting! One of my favorites as well. My dad had Mcintosh gear when I was growing up. Stands test of time, as well as the test of the ear. You using Mac power too?
Just revisited this thread. Good to read that all went well, David. Good on Chelsea. We are blessed to have such great HiFi up here, aren't we. I get that same incredible service from Eugene HiFi.
Very nice Nuck, no need to say enjoy! I am curious how they mate with the Gallos, heard em with Bryston and were real open, kinda warm...........just curious.
Art, the more I hear how far people have to travel to get ahold of different pieces, the more I appreciate our demographics! And yes, Chelsea earned my business from here out, and as most of us do......I will continue to tweek, swap, "upgrade" and just simply explore! Some businesses seem to care more about the end result rather than how much can be gotten, and I can say Chelsea renewed my faith in this very expensive hobby!!
I hear ya David. I will continue to shuffle things around myself...I will just be doing it with the brands offered by Dale at Eugene HiFi. My latest upgrade has been a FIM wall receptacle. It's made more difference than I would have thought possible. Just ordered 3 more.
A tweak without a benefit is a tweak which elicits a response you are not atuned to. If the benefits of a higher grade AC outlet are not within your priorities, then you will not readily perceive the benefits but that doesn't mean the higher grade AC outlet is totally without benefit. You build your system to resolve those values you find to be important at any one time. At some point you probably didn't think much of "soundstaging", "tone" or "ambient room sounds" as they related to your music. As you became aware of their individual values, you made improvements which reflected your new ability to preceive low level information which had otherwise not been of "benefit" to you. Therefore, consider this logic; a problem must exist in order to be rectified, the transparency of the system/room must be of a sufficiently high level as to allow the benefit to be perceived and the perception of the benefits must be within the listening parameters of the observer.
Does all that make sense?
Improved AC outlets of the generic "Hospital Grade" are worth it no matter the level of your system and are low cost enough to be worth the money just because. Will a brand new hospital grade receptacle be an "audible improvement" over the $0.55 cent variety? Probably not in most systems until the cheaper outlet begins to oxidize or the contacts begin to loose tension.
Outlets which are designed to provide some noise filtering or surge protection are a different story and they are more expensive as a reflection of their greater potential benefits. If you're in new construction, the first approach would be to isolate the circuits running to the listening room. That alone will provide your highest bang for buck improvements. Make certain you have a dedicated earth ground for your room's AC circuits which does not interfere with the grounding plane of any other receptacle or lighting fixture which could cause potential ground loops after a few years of oxidation or loosening of connection points.
Then you have to ask yourself how you feel about power cables and improvements inherent in cleaning up or improving the AC feed to your components. If you feel they are tweaks without benefits, then you probably are less inclined to hear what you paid for even if you do perceive some improvements. Placebo and "no-cebo" are still what drive most of us when it comes to perception.
At the very least, you should pay attention to good housekeeping rules and do the right thing by your AC circuits. Other changes you can make post construction most often come with 30 day trials which allow you to judge for yourself what benefits there are to be heard. It is still though up to the transparency of the system and your priorities as to what you will hear. Oftentimes a change that cannot be perceived at one level of system performance can more easily be appreciated after the system has undergone some further improvements elsewhere - a simple compounding of benefits. IMO most "tweaks" as you call them are beneficial or else they wouldn't exist for any length of time. Are they too costly for the benefits you will perceive? Only you can answer that question but most often you will find there is no real downside to practical improvements in the AC circuits.
David, I noticed a bit of a difference when I replaced the two receptacles feeding my gear. Even if you throw out any perceived audible benefits, the mechanical connection is better.....more secure, and as Jan states, less prone to degradation. The receptacles that I replaced didn't have the same grip they had when they were new, which I would assume would also mean the connection was not as effective as when they were new. But hey, what do you expect for 50 cents.
One of the best posts I have read JV. Too often folks do not perceive a benefit from a "tweak" and determine it to be snake oil because either they were unprepared to hear the benefit or as you stated in your post that their system is not at a level of transparency to afford the listener the benefit of the tweak.
David, I have a dedicated circuit in my listening room with hospital grade outlets just as JV describes above and it does make a difference. Do not stop there. At some point you will want to enhance it further with an effective power line conditioner. Rantz has one which brand I cannot immediately recall and I have an Audio Magic Stealth Matrix Power Line Conditioner with upgraded caps and 3 circuits built to match my system plus an Audio Magic Pulse Gen-X added with work all done by Jerry Ramsey. Jerry is the fellow who developed and produced the Audio Magic Power product line. The unit I bought was on Audigon and about 4 years old so I picked it up at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Jerry's upgrades customized it to my kit and I ended up with a very like new conditioner at a very good price point.
I know, sounds like a commercial, but the benefits of the conditioner exceeded that of the dedicated circuit and was one of the best improvements I made to my system.
Yeah, that was a good post. I could really relate to the part about how Jan mentions "As you became aware of their individual values, you made improvements which reflected your new ability to preceive low level information which had otherwise not been of "benefit" to you." This is so true. At one point none of the subtle things that make an excellent music system mattered to me. In fact, I wasn't even aware what they were. Now I notice very subtle things with my system.
