McCormack DNA 1 vs Marsh A 400S
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New member Username: DschwabPost Number: 8 Registered: Feb-10 | Hello all, Looking into these two amps, looking for one to pair with a primaluna prologue 3 tube preamp to drive into Paradigm Studio 100s. Positive reviews abound. I suspect I couldn't go wrong with either but would be glad to hear from anyone with direct experience with either/both of these amps. Cheers-- |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14577 Registered: May-04 | . If you are tied to these two amplifiers, the McCormack is the better match electrically for the high output impedance of the PL pre amp. The DNA's extremely low output impedance (0.01 Ohms nominal) is also better suited to the highly reactive load of the Studio 100's. Finally, the DNA is more capable of sourcing sustained current into the low impedance load the Paradigms present. The nit with the DNA amplifier is its distortion characteristic, it contains substantial - for a modern solid state amplifier - high order harmonics. The McCormack also tends to exhibit this distortion characteristic as load impedance drops - just what you do not want when pairing it with a highly reactive speaker (read Paradigm Studio 100's). "The THD vs frequency plots (fig.4) at 1W into 8 ohms, 2W into 4 ohms, and 4W into 2 ohms, show that the DNA-1's distortion increases significantly as the load impedance drops. When driving 8 ohms, THD was below 0.01% across most of the band. The distortion increased to nearly 0.02% through the midband when driving a 4 ohm load. When the amplifier saw 2 ohms, the distortion rose to over 0.1% between 200Hz and 8kHz, but decreased at the frequency extremes. This is a fairly large deviation in distortion with changing load impedance, but the distortion levels are still relatively low."; http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/520/index5.html This would suggest an audition rather than just buying on reviews. Not everyone will be bothered by the presence of odd order and high order harmonic distortions but some (read most) might be and for those folks this would be a definite deal breaker. Why step back almost two decades in amplifier design? I really can't find much in the way of "professional" reviews and no measurements of the Marsh amplifier. It would appear the Marsh employs FET's in its output stage. If you are not familiar with the sound of FET's driving a speaker such as the Studio 100's, this too would suggest you should audition the amp with your speakers and not rely on someone else's opinion as expressed in a review. The low input impedance of the Marsh might cause a lightweight bass and a lack of "drive" when used with the high output impedance of the PL pre amp. This would be my most important hestiation with the Marsh. One review I did find does not suggest it is well suited to highly reactive speakers but that might just be the reviewer making a poor choice in their own "reference" system. http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/1206luna/index4.html The Marsh site is somewhat confusing since they don't say much about the amplifier and link you to user reviews which IMO are always questionable for reference. The site mentions "direct coupled" circuitry as if this were something unusual - it is not when you are discussing a solid state amplifier. It also mentions a "servo control" network. Servos have a bad name in audio gear as something must go wrong before a servo can react and by the time most servos have done their correction the error has already passed which means the servo is then correcting what has returned to "right" which makes everything wrong again and the servo continues on making corrections that are always out of step with the reality of the situation. You can develop your own ideas regarding the value of servos in this amplifier. They certainly add complexity to the amplifier's circuitry. http://www.marshsounddesign.com/a400s.html http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_3/marsh-sound-design-a-400-amplifier-8-2 000.html Overall, this combination would appear on paper at least to be someone (read you) really testing the quite diverse and all together not typical input, output and load impedance characteristics of a highly reactive system. Cables can and will destroy this system if you choose incorrectly or haphazardly based on reviews or "the deal" you can get. In other words, you don't appear to have a good handle on Ohm's Law and how it relates to putting together an audio system. What you propose is not an impossibility and the combinations might luck into something workable but you're pushing every wrong button available to you with your chosen components. . . |
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New member Username: DschwabPost Number: 9 Registered: Feb-10 | >>Why step back almost two decades in amplifier design? Budget, mostly. I can't spend over 1k on a used amp. >>Overall, this combination would appear on paper at least to be someone (read you) really testing the quite diverse and all together not typical input, output and load impedance characteristics of a highly reactive system. Cables can and will destroy this system if you choose incorrectly or haphazardly based on reviews or "the deal" you can get. Sounds like the Marsh is the wrong choice for me. >>In other words, you don't appear to have a good handle on Ohm's Law and how it relates to putting together an audio system. You're right, I don't. I appreciate the thoughtful analysis of my situation, and I value your advice. Given your familiarity with what I am up against, could you make any recommendations as to which amp will work well with what I have (Primaluna Prologue 3 tube preamp, Paradigm Studio 100s V2)? I want something to complement the preamp, leaning "warm" would be fine with me. Sounds like the McCormack wouldn't be that far off. Any ideas as to what else I may want to investigate, given my $1k used budget for an amp? Regards, Dennis |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14578 Registered: May-04 | . I really have no good ideas regarding specific power amps for these speakers. While not the worst of the lot when it comes to low impedance speaker systems the Studio 100's tend to box you in when it comes time to buy an amplifer suited to their load characteristics. And my experience tends toward not thinking of a budget amplifier that combines the current capacity to deal with the 100's along with a "warm" sound. For the most part high current and "analytical" tend to be more common partners until you've spent as much on an amplifier as you would on a small car. I would suggest a Krell if you can find one in your price range though I've never been a big fan of Krell's house sound. Others like it though and it would work with your speakers. A used McIntosh would probably deal with the low impedance point of the Paradigms when driven off the Mac's 4 Ohm tap from the autoformers. In your price range a used Mac would be reasonable though still present the problem of an older amplifier. Mac, however, is Mac and the McIntosh sound is essentially the same throughout the years - big, warm and musical. Several members here run Mac gear, myself included though I run Mac tube amps. You do not want a tube power amp with the Studio 100's. Bryston would have the current delivery required by the Paradigms but I wouldn't put Bryston in the "warm" category and it would tend towards a different personality than the PL. Maybe you could get lucky and be one of those tube preamp with solid state amplifier combos that work. Again, never my ideal but it works for some people who think of a warm preamp taming a bright amplifier. Like I said, that never made sense to me but some people do it and just go on and on about how great it sounds. They also tend to buy new equipment every six months so judge from that how well that combination is likely to work for you. You've put yourself into a corner. The PL pre amp needs a very high input impedance for the power amplifier - 50kOhms is really minimal and the higher the better for that pre amp, 75-100k Ohms would be my starting point. The 100's need lots of current unless you are playing at rather sedate volumes. The input impedance requirement cuts down your choices on the front end and the current capacity does the same on the outputs. Further limiting the available choices to a certain sound makes this all the more difficult. Possibly someone else has a better idea for an amplifier to consider. . |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 912 Registered: Oct-07 | There are some 'd' amps out there which may work. BelCanto makes an amp which will work with the Paradigms. Here is link http://www.belcantodesign.com/Belcanto_eOne_S300_Dual_Mono_Audio_Power_Amplifier .html Now, whether you would like it or not, that's another story. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14579 Registered: May-04 | . Unless Bel Canto has drastrically changed class d amps they do not care for the impedance swings of the Studio 100's. http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/252/index5.html . |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 913 Registered: Oct-07 | I know it is just advertising, but B&O claims the ICE module to be good to 2ohms. Power is rated to 2.7 ohms....a funny enough number to be believed. http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/files/solutions/icepower250asp.pdf I have no idea about 'drastic changes', but last I heard they were using the ASP module, listed above. The fly in the ointment? Well, there are AT LEAST 2. first, Do you like the sound? Second: Will the low impedance of the speaker effect the HF output enough for it to be objectionable? The modules also do NOT like a pure capacitive load. and are given a 'max pure capacitive load' specification. My panels, which are dead flat impedance, with a good peak at crossover seem to like ICE power. These are about as far from the measurements of the Paradigm as is possible to get. How about: Drop the Paradigms, get some MMGs and the Bel Canto? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14689 Registered: Dec-04 | I have had good and longstanding experience with Classe amps. The ca200 is an older design, with a resale pricetag to match. This amp can be had for 1k$ US if shopped after. The input impedence is right at 75k ohms, the output is a very solid 400wpc at 4 ohms, and I have driven PSB speakers (min 3.2 ohms) for hours at near max volume with no real heat issues, however the amp was sitting in open air for this reason. http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/297classe/index1.html |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14581 Registered: May-04 | . I'd agree with both comments, Leo is right regarding the capacitive load of the 100's paired with the Bel Canto amps. Their amplifiers have received very good reviews, however, always with the caveat the buyer should audition with their own speakers. Additionally, Bel Canto is not a widely distributed line and finding anything to audition is tougher than finding a g@y Hispanic liberal Tea Party candidate in drag with their adopted children who are fluent in Arabic. Classe is not a bad suggestion in that they are rather commonly available on the pre-owned market and have a reputation for a "warm" sound with mostly trouble free operation and long life. Remember, buying a 15-20 year old amp is like buying the same vintage of automobile, even a used Honda is going to have parts that are wearing out after so many years. You need to consider who is going to work on this amp if you intend this to be more than a spring fling and how much shipping and such will cost for those repairs. What are you using for a power amp right now? How's the sound? I assume you want something better so, what is it that isn't happening that you would like to have happen? The Studio 100's are very nice sounding speakers when they are not the cork in the bottleneck of a subpar amplifier. At moderate volumes most solid state amps will do what is required of the speaker. But, if you were interested in moderate volumes I assume you wouldn't be loooking at 150-200 watt amplifiers. Or, are you just assuming more watts will get the speakers doing what you desire? . |
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New member Username: DschwabPost Number: 10 Registered: Feb-10 | Until recently, I was merely using an Outlaw Audio RR2150. I did compare the Paradigms to the MMGs using the Outlaw, and found the former much more to my liking (not the best evaluation, I realize). The sound of the Outlaw was, to me, more bright and aggressive than I prefer. I purchased a Moscode 300 tube/ss hybrid amp (374k input impedance!) but it burned out a part in its circuit almost immediately upon connecting it to the Outlaw, and I have returned it. I expect that the Primaluna Prologue 3 tube preamp + solid state amp will be a substantial leap forward for me. The reason I am going in this direction is the epiphany I recently had when listening to vinyl for the first time in many years. I have a Technics 1210M5G with the KAB fluid damper and an AT150MLX cartridge. Using the paradigms and the outlaw I was knocked out, just loved the analog sound and have been kicking myself for not going in that direction sooner. However I did experience, with certain LPs anyway, clipping at high volume and a sense that the outlaw was struggling. This lack of power, combined with the need for more "warmth" when listening to CDs, had me looking for something to replace the outlaw. >>The PL pre amp needs a very high input impedance for >>the power amplifier - 50kOhms is really minimal and the >>higher the better for that pre amp, 75-100k Ohms would >>be my starting point. The 100's need lots of current >>unless you are playing at rather sedate volumes. The >>input impedance requirement cuts down your choices on >>the front end and the current capacity does the same on >>the outputs. >>The PL pre amp needs a very high input impedance for >>the power amplifier - 50kOhms is really minimal and the >>higher the better for that pre amp, 75-100k Ohms would >>be my starting point. The 100's need lots of current >>unless you are playing at rather sedate volumes. The >>input impedance requirement cuts down your choices on >>the front end and the current capacity does the same on >>the outputs. The McCormack DNA-1 has an input impedance of 100k Ohms and is rated 185 wpc at 8 Ohms, double that at 4 Ohms. I may be able to live with the "nit" of the harmonic distortion, if not, I could sell it. To the helpful point about older gear having parts that are wearing out.....if I were to get the McCormack and fell in love with it I would likely send it to Steve McCormack in the future for one of his upgrades. I got a great deal on the Paradigms, realize I am sort of boxed in here using them with the prologue 3 (then again, it does make the process of choosing an amp easier when one's options are limited!), but want to give the pairing a good shot, needing only an amp to complete the deal. If I get breathless and gaga over the taste of tubes, I could see replacing the Paradigms in the future to open up more doors (tube amp?), but like I said want to see what I can make of the two key pieces of gear I have with me right now. IF it's worth mentioning, I do not listen to classical, chamber, jazz, etc., just prefer rock/soul/country, mostly from the late 50s and into the 70s, with some Nirvana, White Stripes & Pavement being favorites of a more recent vintage. Thanks. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14582 Registered: May-04 | . So you want "tube" and "analog" sound?  . |
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Bronze Member Username: DschwabPost Number: 11 Registered: Feb-10 | "Euphonic", "liquid", "rich", "warm", pick your descriptor, from the little I have listened to tubes, they are closer to the sound of analog/vinyl than solid-state gear is. I would still want some periodic "slam" and my speakers clearly need juice, that's why I am moving towards ss in the output stage. Have heard from many who are real happy using tube preamps and ss amps, I'm hoping the combo will do the same for me. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14584 Registered: May-04 | . High order and odd order harmonics are not part of "Euphonic", "liquid", "rich", "warm", pick your descriptor. Anything but, though the DNA amp does seem to garner reviews that suggest its measured performance is not the equivalent to its perceived performance. If you can't find a McIntosh or a Classe in your price range, then the McCormack might be your best choice. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14692 Registered: Dec-04 | follow the Classe. trust me. |
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Bronze Member Username: DschwabPost Number: 12 Registered: Feb-10 | >If you can't find a McIntosh or a Classe in your price range, >then the McCormack might be your best choice. Thanks for the insightful advice. These are the 3 brands I'll consider. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14697 Registered: Dec-04 | The Mac will cost lrge in comparison to the Classe for near the same capabilities, if not the sound. I have owned both, and have a Mac. Given the choice, it is a toss up with a Classe setup. I have heard lots of both. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3714 Registered: May-05 | I've mentioned it a few times, and I'll mention it again - Adcom GFA 5802. Nelson Pass design. Not you're typical Adcom in any way. Built like a tank and always amazed me every time I've heard it. Not sure about how the pre-amp will match up electrically though. I'll leave that one up to the one who know about that stuff. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1270149759&/Adcom-GFA-5802-Excel lent-Condi If I was starting over and needed some serious power, it would be very high up on my list. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 915 Registered: Oct-07 | Didn't Steve sell the company which bears his name? Does that mean he won't do retro/rebuild any more? Stu, when I went thru my system a few years ago, as the cube was going away, I had a chance at an Adcom 555. Also Pass design. I think he's improved his abilities since than. |
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Bronze Member Username: DschwabPost Number: 13 Registered: Feb-10 | Steve still does upgrades for McCormack amps. http://www.smcaudio.com/ |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3715 Registered: May-05 | The Adcom 555 was crap IMO. I know a lot of people liked it, but a lot didn't. It was grainy and dull to my ears. This is the first time I've heard Pass designed the 555. I'm also not a fan of Adcom for the most part. The 5802 bears no resemblence, and the same goes for the GTP 750 Pass designed passive/active preamp. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 919 Registered: Oct-07 | I thought I 'memberd rite. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/5280-adcom-555ii-nelson-pass.html Forum answer from Pass himself...the subject is the triple 5. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3718 Registered: May-05 | I didn't doubt you, Leo. Sorry if I implied that. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14706 Registered: Dec-04 | Leo lives for the hunt, Stu. good link, Leo. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 920 Registered: Oct-07 | Came that close....(finger and thumb 5mm apart) to buying a triple 5. Age scared me off and that the design didn't age well. Modern Adcom interests me not a bit. I think 'A History of Pass Designs' would be an interesting read. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3726 Registered: May-05 | I think Adcom has all but abandoned the 2 channel market. The make 3 stereo amps. No stereo pre-amps or sources. B&K is another one who's abandoned the market. Its too bad. |
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