Subwoofer project
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 21 Registered: Feb-10 | hi guys i am going to build my own subwoofer for my home stereo and i just wanted some opinions. The plan is to use a car subwoofer and a plate amp to good loud quality bass. My plan is to buy a bash or dayton (doesnt matter) 500 watt plate amp from parts express or wherever would be cheaper. The sub i want to use is a jl audio w3v2.. i know jl audio.. theres better out there for cheaper.. but i know jl has quality sound and the subs last forever. Anyways im thinking that or an alpine type x but i will probably go with jl. and i would build my own box, probably around 2.0 to 2.5 cu ft. i know thats kinda big but i want lots of output! and ill tune it around 37-40 hz probably at 37 but ill do more research first. I know someone will probably say go sealed with the jl but i just dont like sealed boxes at all. im all about ported, and besides i listen to hip hop and r&b mostly and that tuning will be perfect for my house. so figuring out prices i can get the amp for about $200 the sub for $130 and box for about $40 so im looking at just under $400 total and of course the dayton and bash perform best at 4 ohms they each put out over 500 watts rms at that. so i would get a dvc 2 ohm and run it in series and end up at 4 ohms to get the most out of the amp. I know some people like to use those amps at 2 ohms but some of them have problems just to get a few more watts out so ill just play it safe and stick to 4 ohms.. and the jl is rated at 500 watts rms and 1000 watts peak. seems like a perfect match to me the whole idea is to be able to shake the walls off the house when i want to but still maintain the quality. i know people will say go with tc sounds or audiopulse whatever u wanna call or. or check out re audio. but i have had those subs and i just dont think they have the sq that jl does. ive never had a jl sub before but i have heard plenty and i really like their sound even if they are overpriced. but still for the money i dont think i could find anything better as the sub will be brand new not used.. i know there are some quality home subwoofers out there in the $400 price range like svs,velodyne, sunfire(maybe not..) im not to familiar with home subs in those ranges as there is no place to listen to them at. all i have heard is the klipsch sub 12 and rd something.. it was like $800 but not really impressed by them.. and im guessing that im just spending more money on a home audio subwoofer just because of the name of the company and of course because they did all the labor already of building the box, the driver, the amp, the finish and all that good stuff so im thinking that theres no way a home audio sub can compete with that in spl and sq. im not worried about having a "perfect" home theater sub that will shake the house at 20hz while watching movies. i want a sub thats going to have the spl and sq with music.. hence the reason i will build the box i know will sound good for what i want.. tell me what you guys think about all this i dont need to do anything with the power supply of my house right? 500 watts wont start an electrical fire will it? thanks guys |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1039 Registered: Feb-08 | Have you factored in a power supply yet? That is usually the deal killer! |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 857 Registered: Oct-07 | 40$ for the 'box'? Way low. This enclosure must be built tough. No sloppy quality and plenty of bracing. |
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 23 Registered: Feb-10 | no i havent.. do i need to do anything special to power a plate amp like that? or would it just be fine to plug it in and go? |
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 28 Registered: Feb-10 | ya thats about all it costs to get the materials.. and of course it will have plenty of bracing. I would build it myself, like they say its not done right until you do it yourself! or something like that. I could show you some pics of the box i bought for my 2 memphis mojos or the box i built for my dd 3512. I am pretty proud of myself |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1040 Registered: Feb-08 | Sorry, Missed the plate amp bit and was figuring you were trying to use a car amp. Have fun! |
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 29 Registered: Feb-10 | ya ive done that before and its just too big of a mess and just more money. so you think thats the best approach? theres really no home audio subwoofers that could compete with the setup i want to do? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14546 Registered: Dec-04 | If you can find an existing bow for the sub and make that, you might have a better shot on getting good tuning. DIYaudio.com |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14502 Registered: May-04 | . "and im guessing that im just spending more money on a home audio subwoofer just because of the name of the company and of course because they did all the labor already of building the box, the driver, the amp, the finish and all that good stuff " Yeah, all that "good stuff" is what costs extra money. For all "you know" you are wrong about many of them. Most subwoofer manufacturers buy plate amps similar to what you are capable of buying, they just buy good ones when they are building a decent subwoofer. Same goes for the driver, they buy high quality units and make certain they are suited for the enclosure rather than just buying a driver because they've heard good things about it. They don't just guess at the enclosure volume or build ported enclosures just because. They understand T/S parameters and build accordingly. Of course you failed to mention any of the real overhead costs a real company incurs but that doesn't matter to you. Thinking you are paying for a name is as good a way as any to convice yourself you don't need to buy something from a quality company - it's foolish but it serves the purpose. "theres really no home audio subwoofers that could compete with the setup i want to do?" Yeah, I think there are. . |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 3008 Registered: Dec-06 | A) Give me some examples of what you like to listen to that I might have heard of. B) By your comments, I am not sure if you understand the difference between a house and car when it comes to bass. C) What room are you dealing with? Description, dimensions... etc.. D) I am not sure you would get exactly what you are looking for without equalization, meaning that you may need to change it a bit to your liking or fix the response for the room. |
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 30 Registered: Feb-10 | when i said that i meant it as a question... so if there are subwoofers that can compete with that set up i would like to know. but i listen to hip hop r&b mostly and some classic rock. do you want me to name some songs to give you an idea of the bass tones? but i do have a plate amp already.. and i have tested a car sub in my house in a box tuned to 37 hz, and it sounds exactly what i like, thats the reason i mentioned that tuning. And that is placing the sub in the corner of the room behind the couch, where would be the best place in the room to place it.. i have tried different areas and i like that the most. but i understand a company like velodyne will have a quality plate amp with a good driver and build quality, all fit to specs to match that driver to sound good. and when i say i want a jl audio sub. im not saying im getting it just because i think its a good brand.. i have listened to them and i feel even though many would agree they are overpriced, they do produce excelent sound quality. and like i said im not after a "perfect" home theater subwoofer, that has as close to possible to a flat response, and plays down to 20 hz. im after a musical subwoofer to play my genre of music to my liking. and i feel that would be the best set up at the moment.. but thats why im asking for opinions or suggestions as what to do better. and i understand where your coming from saying i might not get exactly what i want without equalization.. and i feel i have figured out what will sound best to me. i am completely aware that a sub in a house will sound different than a car because of the room size, objects in the room. the height of the ceiling.. the fact the size of a trunk creates its own tuning. im aware of that i dont mean to sound disrespectful with anything i say just so you guys know. i enjoy listening to opinions, and to learn what i can |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14503 Registered: May-04 | . Essentially, you are asking us to tell you whether there are any subwoofers you would like better than something that as yet does not exist. You would like us to read your mind to hear what this projected subwoofer made from a car stereo driver and shoved into an oversized box "sounds" like in advance of it being built. That's a fairly steep hill to climb. You appear to believe liking a particular type of music means you should have a specific subwoofer tuning and box size independent of one another. And you also seem to think that one subwoofer tuned to 37Hz (which by the way is not a subwoofer, it is a noise maker - subwoofers actually are designed to reproduce the lowest octaves beneath the reach of your main speakers and not just add more thump to the frequencies your main speakers can already reproduce) will sound exactly like another subwoofer tuned to 37Hz. You think building a bigger box will provide more output no matter the driver but you say you want to tune the system to a specific frequency. You want "sq" with music but you don't care if other subs sound better with music because you listen to a specific type of music. Tell me this, do you understand how to use the T/S parameters of the driver to determine the enclosure type and volume, the port length and its volume to arrive at a specific tuning for the system? Why would you not want an actual subwoofer that can reproduce the frequencies found in music other than the 60Hz thump of hip hop? And what makes you feel the driver, amp and enclosure you've selected will sound better with your music preferences than another subwoofer designed by someone who does understand T/S parameters? Why waste $400 on this project if you could buy a very good subwoofer from a manufacturer for only a few dollars more? . |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 3009 Registered: Dec-06 | Well I don't think I saw which size you plan on using (woofer). I am assuming a 12" or 13" Yes, specific song names would help... If you have found a 37hz tuning in that spot to work great for you, then it would likely be just fine. If you do it properly with a stout box, proper power (500w is fine), and a proper feed from the pre-amp (whatever it is you are using), it may turn out quite well. To me, 'musical' is very subjective. Based on that, I tend to default to musical as meaning it puts out what it's given (flat). When you say 'to my liking' and a 37hz tuning, that indicates you like a bit of boost around 37hz (a bit below too) up to 50-60hz. I have NOT modeled this particular set-up, but that seems to be the general curve with a tuning that high and a driver in the 28-29hz fs. Another reason I mention EQ is that I thought I liked it one way, but it turns out that after a lot of listening, I have tended towards flat (with a bit of low-low end boost). If you saw my setup you'd probably laugh  and wonder why I have 80w on a subwoofer that can handle 25x that without a problem. Unless you suddenly have some sort of music preference change, I think your current plan is juuuust fine. Also, I have no idea what you mean to sound like. This is the internet! It's hard to get across VERBAL inflections using writing. |
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 31 Registered: Feb-10 | yes i do understand the t/s parameters of the driver and how to properly tune a box. i have made many boxes, and i feel i am pretty good at it. and yes it would be a 12'' driver. I may even just get an alpine type x instead.. im not sure yet. hmm but heres a few songs to give you an idea of the different basses i like to hit. my pony-ginuwine hypnotize-young jeezy tip of my tongue-jagged edge slow motion-cold flamez i think theres a few songs that will test a subwoofer pretty well. but you say why waste $400 on this project when i can get a good sub from a manufacturer for just a few more dollars.. i wouldnt mind going that route. What are you suggesting? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14504 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.hsuresearch.com/ . |
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 32 Registered: Feb-10 | ok i understand hsu is an amazing company. what model would you consider me to get? and what about an outlaw lfm-1? If i could get it for under $300 |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14505 Registered: May-04 | . I would suggest the best model you can afford that would suit your needs. $300?! Look, if this is about not spending money, buy something used or on a closeout and be done with it. Someone is always dumping something they bought and then didn't like. It's difficult to take anyone seriously when they say they want to prioritize sound quality but it always gets down to, "... if I can get it for this much". . |
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 34 Registered: Feb-10 | well i did some reading about that outlaw and it seems to be a very musical sub.. and it has plenty of power. like i said i am open to suggestions on what to do. i didnt say im going to stick with the jl and a plate amp. i wanted to know what would be my best option in that price range.. and i figured making my own set up would be best, unless someone had other ideas of what might work better its not that i found a sony sub that is on sale now, and im completely changing everything i have said i wanted. i just want something that will sound good, and i know outlaw is a respectable company for subwoofers in that price range along with svs,hsu,velodyne.. ect when i said that i meant is that a good choice, and is that a good bargain if i decided to go with it. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14507 Registered: May-04 | . As I see it you didn't really come here for advice. It's been offered and you've decided you have better ideas. I suggested the Hsu and you asked about the Outlaw. You say you want sound quality but seem to prioritize the bargain you can get. As far as you're concerned the Outlaw is a good subwoofer and you can get it for a price you're willing to pay. You seem to know what you want and, if any other suggestion is made, you refute it. You seem to know what companies are good. Why not just either buy a sub and get done with it or build what you know you want because I don't see that we are making any difference to your decision? . |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 3010 Registered: Dec-06 | I'm with Jan here. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14562 Registered: Dec-04 | The LM-1 IS a Hsu VTF1, or will be on the used market. A good small sub |
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 36 Registered: Feb-10 | its not that im not taking your advice or not listening to it, i just want to hear options. i like to hear your opinions on what is a good choice and your reasons behind it. jan you say a home subwoofer is good because the manufacturer does understand the t/s parameters and builds everything to fit that driver. but you also said they use a normal plate amp as well. and looking, most of them use a bash amp, which was one of the choices i was thinking about using. but i do understand how to put a subwoofer in a box that jl has given specs to, to perform best. i just may want to tweak it a little bit to try to get a little more output. but if you think that will destroy the sound, i wont do that. i just would like to discuss options and the reasoning behind why they are the best options thats all. if you dont want to do that, thats fine with me. but im pretty sure that you guys like to tell your knowledge and you enjoy doing so |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 860 Registered: Oct-07 | You know, if you have all the pieces of the puzzle...that is, understand TS parameters and how to design an enclosure from them, can get a proper plate amp and the effect of more/ less 'stuffing' in the enclosure, i see no reason not to go ahead. Just one last point. or 2. Manufacturers understand the problems and limits from a HOME standpoint, not auto. They also have deeper pockets and can get certain...economies...not available to the average home DIY guy. I'd also buy a good HOME driver, not an automotive unit. All that being said, I doubt you'll save much money, but will certainly have the satisfaction of DIY and can get very good, tailored results. Homes differ from cars in another way. You can pressurize your van or car but to do so in a house you will either do structural damage or end up with 'hot spots' and uneven deep bass due to standing waves. If you can, I'd say to build a pair of 'em. Sounds like you like it LOUD and want to FEEL it rattle everything. You and Andre need to have a sit-down. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14509 Registered: May-04 | . "i like to hear your opinions on what is a good choice and your reasons behind it." I gave you my opinion, what more do you want? "jan you say a home subwoofer is good because the manufacturer does understand the t/s parameters and builds everything to fit that driver. but you also said they use a normal plate amp as well." "But"?! I don't see a contradiction there. The plate amp requires nothing special, the driver and the enclosure are the issue. "and looking, most of them use a bash amp, which was one of the choices i was thinking about using." Hooray! It's a very good plate amp. I own two of them. However, the plate amp is still not the issue here. "but i do understand how to put a subwoofer in a box that jl has given specs to, to perform best." JL is a predominantly car audio company. The T/S parameters for nine out of ten drivers intended for car stereo use are not very suitable for home use if sound quality is the priority. A car's interior is pressurized in a very different manner than is a typical domestic room. The car interior has a "normal" 200Hz hump that is not found in a room. Additionally, most car stereo drivers are intended for high SPL's over a very restricted frequency range rather than strict sound quality over several octaves. The enclosure suggested by JL is for what? a car interior or for a domestic room? If you place a driver whose T/S parameters are intended for a car's interior into a box intended for a car's interior, you will get the intended sound only when that subwoofer system is driving the very small volume space of a car's interior. Otherwise, you'll get lumpy, sloppy bass with no extension, no musicality and large degrees of overhang and group delay. Drivers intended for car use are seldom very good when used in a domestic setting - the type of music you listen to doesn't matter. I tell you this because you are not the first person to come from car stereo into home audio thinking all they know from one life transfers to the next. It doesn't. You say you understand T/S parameters. If so, this shouldn't be news to you. If you are certain the T/S parameters of the JL driver will work in a box built for a domestic application, then fine. However, you cannot then assume the enclosure JL recommends for car installation will automatically transfer to the home use. 2 to 2 1/2 cubic feet of vented enclosure volume is certainly a large box for a car stereo driver. The difference in system response between a 2 and a 2 1/2 cubic foot enclosure is rather severe for virtually any driver in any sort of enclosure shy of a sealed box and even that would be questionable if sound quality is the priority. If you are as certain as can be about your calculations - you have made the necessary calaculations, right? - and you are not just copying a design supplied by JL for car use, then you can do what you originally proposed. I have nothing against DIY as my main speakers and both my subs were done that way. "i just would like to discuss options and the reasoning behind why they are the best options thats all." I gave you an option. You want a bargain. I see no point in discussing "bargains". I don't see that anything has changed, you know which home audio companies build good components. What further comment is required when you are not discussing the quality of the component but only "the bargain"? As I said, I don't see that you actually came here for our advice. You know what you want and we can't find it for you. I'm not interested in doing any research to guesstimate whether a JL driver will work well in a domestic setting particularly when placed in an oversized enclosure. You seem to think it will, so that's all that's required IMO. My advice stands as I gave it in my previous post. "if you dont want to do that, thats fine with me. but im pretty sure that you guys like to tell your knowledge and you enjoy doing so" Kettle, meet black. . |
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Bronze Member Username: CwruckPost Number: 37 Registered: Feb-10 | what did you use for the subwoofers in your house? and what about the speakers? im not trying to fight with you jan, i just like to talk about this stuff. i have done the car audio and i feel i learned alot, but now i want to get into the home audio, since i have recently got my own house. thats why i like to take all the advice i can so when i do something i can do it right the first time, and not have to keep doing it over and over again. I have heard your advice about hsu subs and i may get one. I know it is probably the best home subwoofer in my price range to get. but yes like leo said i do like my bass loud and to shake the room. but i have a question.. why do people like to use tc sounds drivers? or audiopulse whatever driver they had to do their diy subwoofer. i know they sell them on partsexpress. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 864 Registered: Oct-07 | If you like your bass MAJOR and at near nose bleed levels, go to the HSU site, look for the sub vs room size chart and double up! http://www.hsuresearch.com/faq.html#1 If you have a #3 size room, get a pair of subs rated at least for that size room. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14511 Registered: May-04 | . "what did you use for the subwoofers in your house? and what about the speakers?" I use Adire drivers for my music system subwoofer and a Dayton for my HT. Adire is no longer in the same business position as they were at the time of my purchase, they did, however, bridge the gap between building drivers for home and car use. To my knowledge you can no longer buy directly from Adire. My main music system speakers use Merrill drivers. I don't have any answers to your other questions since they seem to deal with car systems. Very little of what you learned about car systems translates well when you begin dealing with home systems. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14566 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan cannot even afford amps newer that 50 yrs old either, so take a grain of salt. Stirs pot... |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 3011 Registered: Dec-06 | A note on Jan's use of Adire drivers, Exodus Audio makes similar drivers. TC Sounds is known for their linear motor system, but the budget requirements for a proper set-up... high. Funny enough, I've been spending the past couple days getting rid of the rattles I can find.. If you want clean bass at high levels, this is a must. My room is exceptionally bad in this area, though. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14513 Registered: May-04 | . A handful of companies bought the rights to use Adire's motor design. As I understand it this resulted in lawsuits that forced the company out of their market position. The design lives on but not the company. Possibly they just got tired of the hassles of retail in a market that invites users to push their products to the extremes. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14575 Registered: Dec-04 | Adire made some pretty scary stuff. The Shiva and down the line was some good stuff, but economics did them in. Quality American drivers. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14519 Registered: May-04 | . Here's the "drop in replacement" for the driver I used in my music system's subwoofer; http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=SDX7 . |
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