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New member Username: DschwabPost Number: 1 Registered: Feb-10 | Hello, I am, I hope, nearing the end of my quest for a 2-channel music-only system I can be real happy with for several years to come. A cornerstone of my system is my pair of Paradigm Studio Monitor 100s, V3. I am expecting to soon be in possession of a Primaluna Prologue Three tube preamp. I am hoping to hear from some of you as to a good solid state amp recommendation for this setup. I currently have an Outlaw Audio RR2150 integrated and use it with a Technics 1210M5G (with an AT150MLX cartrdige) and and an Onkyo DX-7555 CD player. I only recently turned back to vinyl and have come to the conclusion that I prefer analog to digital. As such, I am looking to get the tube preamp, and have begun selling off a good portion of my cd collection and putting my money into high quality vinyl pressing of my favorite recordings. In the category of favorites would be The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, offerings from STAX and Motown, The Who, Nirvana, Pavement, Beck and The White Stripes. One problem I have encountered is clipping at the 2:30-3:00 position, only when I listen to certain albums. As the Paradigms take a lot of juice, I am pointing the finger at the Outlaw (granted, I don't regularly feel the need to blast music, but when that notion does strike me I would like to be able to do so without clipping). I have a budget of $700 for a used amp. Something like an Odyssey Stratos seems like it might work, but I wonder if it would have enough drive and would afford headroom with the Paradigms. Also, due to the high impedance of the prologue 3, my amp would need to have an input impedance of at least 47k ohms I have also thought about an old Bryston 4B (the SST model is out of my budget) and an Adcom 5500 I defer to the experience of others in this regard, and would welcome any comments/suggestions! Thanks, Dennis |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3605 Registered: Feb-07 | I actually find it a bit surprising that the Outlaw is having issues driving the 100's. Interesting.. at the 2:00 position it must be pretty darned loud. The Outlaw is rated at 100 watts I believe? I have no experience with Adcom, but I have lots of experience with Bryston. An old 4B would absolutely spank those Paradigms (in a good way, of course). |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1110 Registered: Jun-08 | An old 4B but even a 3B-ST should be able to drive the Paradigms to realistic levels. The ST will give you a lower noise floor and some additional clarity and definition. I love Bryston power and its very neutral so the qualities of your pre-amp should show through quite nicely To tell you the truth, I've never really got the o'clock position on a volume knob - it's all relative to your starting point. My 0-position on my pre-amp volume control is actually in the 7:00 position, 9:00 or 10:00 would be my normal listening level. At 11:00 or 12:00 it's blarring. If I ever reached 2:00 or 3:00, I'd either be clipping or knocking the voicecoils back into the magnets. So for me if you're clipping at 2:30 p.m., that sounds right - why do you need it that loud? Or are we speaking different positions. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3609 Registered: Feb-07 | Both my McIntosh integrated any my Bryston pre-amp have volume knobs that start around the 7:00 position. If I turned the volume up to 2:00 on either one it would be insanely, ridiculously loud. |
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Silver Member Username: EzntnGreeneville, TN Post Number: 119 Registered: Apr-09 | I have a set of those speakers, albeit near 6 years old. They are the mains in my HT system, driven by a Rotel RSX 1065. Never drove them with my Cary. Be interesting. Sound is totally different thru the other speakers. I can't go beyond noon, starting at 7 .. on either system. There's this on Audiogon http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1269790683 Nice Classe |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3639 Registered: May-05 | If you're patient enough, you may be able to find a Bryston, Audio Research, or McCormack amp on Audiogon for around your price. All excellent amps, and very good values on the used market. I'm a huge Bryston fan. They're the safest bet used due to the 20 year transferrable warranty. And they sound fantastic. But that's a subjective thing. The only Adcom I'd consider is the 5802. Its a Nelson Pass design, and a great amp. Get that and a matching GFP 750 pre-amp and you've got an excellent system for a great price. Everyone's ears are different. Where the volume knob is insignificant. I've had amps that couldn't go to 12:00, some not much past about 10:00. A better volume control in a pre-amp will give you more use of the entire area. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3640 Registered: May-05 | ds, The Studio 100s need a strong amp to really open up and shine. I'm not familiar with the Outlaw, so I can't say whether or not its providing enough or not. The amps I mentioned should have more than enough quality power to do the Studio 100s justice. Don't limit yourself to the Bryston 4B. The 3B should get the job done more than adequately. You may be able to find a 3BST for 4B money. 3Bs are less common for some reason, yet sound pretty much identical. IMO the ST series sounds a good bit better than the non-ST series. ST to SST was a step up, but not nearly as much. If buying a used Bryston, make sure you get a date code and verify with Bryston how much warranty is left. Bryston can update some older amps, and for a good price. They can't make a 4B into the current version, but they can probably make it better than original specs. Maybe also inquire about what can be done down the road if the urge should come up. Audio Research and McCormack amps don't come up very often in your price range, but they come pretty close every now and again. Both companies have great service and can fix and/or update just about anything they've ever made. Both are excellent sounding amps that even their lowest powered SS amps shouldn't have problems with you speakers. I really like the Adcom GFA 5802 amp and matching pre-amp. I'm not an Adcom fan and these are the only Adcoms I'd ever buy (They weren't designed by Adcom). There's a 5802 on Audiogon right now for $900. I know its $200 over budget, but its a great amp (I'm not endorsing the specific amp that's for sale, just the model). Have you considered using the Outlaw as a pre-amp for a while, then getting a new pre-amp down the road? The Outlaw should get a good price used on Audiogon. Be careful of what you're buying on EBay. Audiogon is a far more reliable place IMO. Not that there's no good or bad sellers at either one. I'd pay a few bucks more to an Audiogon seller than an EBay seller. The Audiogon guys are typically hifi hobby guys, while most EBay sellers buy and sell everything and anything. They're not the most knowledgable hifi sellers. There's always exceptions though. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 842 Registered: Oct-07 | Here is the stereophile test link. http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/105paradigm/ any new amp should be able to handle the low impedance part of the curve. Based on the data in the test, you might very well be running the RR out of power. If you like the Outlaw gear, maybe a pair of there 200 watt monoblocs would work, and be within budget. |
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New member Username: DschwabPost Number: 2 Registered: Feb-10 | Thanks for the input and recommendations. Dumb question: Is a Bryston 4B and a Bryston 4B NRB the same thing? I think the former was the original, while the latter was introduced in the 1990s? I plan on using this amp with my outlaw until I can put together enough scratch to buy a primaluna prologue 3 tube pre. On my short list is a used Bryston, McCormack DNA, Adcom 5500 or 5802 and a B&K 2002. or 4420. Wonder if anyone with an Emotiva XPA-2 has experience comparing it with any of the above? Thanks again |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3656 Registered: May-05 | I'm pretty sure the series went B, Be (for a very short time), NRB, ST, SST, SST2 |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3614 Registered: Feb-07 | Stu would know. |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1112 Registered: Jun-08 | The NRB is supposely very similar in sound to the ST - a read an article saying the NRB stands for "no real bass", which was a joke in itself because the NRB provides the kicking bass we know Bryston to give. Kinda like the late model SST (last 6 months) was essentially already the SST/2 |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3657 Registered: May-05 | According to James Tanner, there was a pretty big jump in performance between the NRB and ST. From then on, not so much from one to the next. The non-ST to ST was described as revolutionary, whereas the next steps were as evolutionary. I haven't seen anything other than the 4B in Be and NRB, although the other amps probably do exist. The 4B is by far the best selling Bryston amp. Maybe due to it being a lower mid range model? If you really want Bryston build and sound quality, check out older Lexicon amps. For a short while they were re-badged Brystons. They don't have the 20 year warranty, and I'm not sure if Bryston will work on them/upgrade them or not. If you find one, give Bryston a call. Given their track record, I'm sure they'd help you out if you needed it. Here's a Lexicon NT-212 (Bryston 3B ST) on Audiogon for $550. I'm not endorsing the particular amp or seller, but its definitely worth looking into IMO. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1269310370&/Lexicon-NT-212-Bryst on-3BST- I'm not sure about model numbers. The Bryston made Lexicons look exactly like the Brystons, the only difference was the logos. At the end of the day, I'd prefer a 3B ST over any non-ST and above 4B. I think Bryston really came along with the ST stuff. |
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New member Username: DschwabPost Number: 3 Registered: Feb-10 | Thanks everyone. Stu, thanks for the info & pointing out the Lexicon. That's the exact kind of value I often gravitate towards. I wonder if the 120 wpc would be enough in my case, since I have had clipping issues with my vinyl setup and a 100 wpc receiver. I think, to play it safe, I should get something more powerful, though the value of the Lexicon is sorely tempting. You guys have helped me make my decision. The amp I will buy someday, and hopefully have for many years, is a Bryston-ST (SST model just too expensive). Waiting to hear from Bryston about the cost of them upgrading a Bryston 4B NRB. Do those pop up on audiogon? I've been looking for only a few week, so I couldn't say. If they don't, I may have to get a cheaper amp to hold me over until I come up with the scratch to get the ST. Thinking about an Adcom 5500 for that purpose. If that is how it goes, then I'll have the chance for a direct comparison between the Adcom and the Bryston, which I am very curious to do. Thanks again. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3660 Registered: May-05 | I wouldn't get any Adcom other than the 5802. They're grainy and dull sounding IMO. Some people love them, but I'm just not a fan at all. The 5802 is a different amp. It was designed by Nelson Pass, who's a legend in the field. If you can swing another $100, there's one on Audiogon right now for $800. Maybe the seller will negotiate? http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1270149759&/Adcom-GFA-5802-Excel lent-Condi That's got more than enough clean power for pretty much any speaker, the Studio 100's included. I've heard the pairing (with the matching Pass designed GFP 750 pre-amp), and it sounded very good. For the money, the 5802 is still very hard to beat. Maybe a Parasound Halo amp? |
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New member Username: DschwabPost Number: 4 Registered: Feb-10 | I have spent a fair amount of time looking specifically at the 5802 vs the 5500 and am familiar with Nelson Pass, so my inclination was to lean towards the 5802 but I read over 100 reviews of the two models at audioreview, and, interestingly, the 5500 was preferred there. ? I've also looked into the paraound halo. Also on the short list "holdover until I get a Bryston 4B-ST" is a B&K EX-4420. Any experience with that (or B&K for that matter)? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3662 Registered: May-05 | B&K makes some very good gear as well. Its pretty warm sounding, almost dark sounding actually. I think they're out of the 2 channel market completely now and are soley focused on home theater. They're built in Buffalo, NY and had very good customer service. I say had, because I haven't keep up with them in a while now. I doubt things have changed, but you never know. Everyone has their own opinions and no one is wrong when it comes to preferences, but I don't think anything Adcom made sounds anywhere near as good as the Nelson Pass stuff. Again, everyone has their opinions. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14486 Registered: May-04 | . The B&K EX-4420 (as with all the early generation B&K designs) does well with very linear impedance speakers. Keep the impedance high and relatively flat and the B&K will delight challenging far more expensive designs and giving litttle away. If you've ever heard Jeff Rowland Design Group products, you'll have an idea what a very good B&K power amplifier can manage given the right circumstances. Attach it to a speaker ike the 100's and you'll get lumpy, bloated bass and rolled off highs. If you're attracted to the B&K line find the Sonata monoblocks for a difficult speaker like the Paradigm or pass altogether if you intend to stay with that speaker. Given the right electrical pairing between B&K amplifier and speaker they offer a very large amount of very high end sound at a bragin basement price. There are still modification outfits that will redo a B&K which is advisable since you're now talking a nearly thirty year old amplifier. . |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 854 Registered: Oct-07 | for 700$ new, a PAIR of 200 watt Outlaw Monoblocs can be had. That should take care of the power problem, get you new amps and be ok to upgrade later. Some of the HT guys run stacks of these little amps. The new model has balanced in as well, if that matters. |
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New member Username: DschwabPost Number: 5 Registered: Feb-10 | Thanks again. I'm not referencing this thread, but it is interesting how polarizing Adcom amps are. I had originally been thinking of getting one (or a B&K 4420) then saving up for a Bryston 4B-ST and selling the Adcom or B&K off when the Bryston entered the picture. What I may do instead is sell off some Bear Family boxed sets to help fund the leap upwards towards the Bryston 4B-ST. I'm not (I think) one who is going to want to experiment with a lot of gear (famous last words) and am thinking the Bryston may impress me enough to keep around for 10+ years (I'm new to the hobby but have already become enamored with trying new things, learning and upgrading, but maybe the Bryston would be a component I can live with a very long time). |
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Gold Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 1103 Registered: Dec-07 | http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/105paradigm/index2.html ds- This impedence curve for the Studio 100s shows the need for a lot of juice and probably accounts for the clipping at high volume settings, even moreso if the music is demanding in the lower frequencies. If you are going to stay with those speakers (and I would not pair them with a tube-based power amp BTW should you be so inclined down the road) the amp you choose will need a fair bit of "reserve" current and over-designed heat sinks if you are going into the mid-afternoon on the volume dial. From what I know of the line, I think you are on the right track with the Bryston gear. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 804 Registered: Jul-07 | The thing I've found with speakers like that though is that they never sound good at low volumes. You need a monster amp turned up high to get them to sing. Low to moderate volume settings with any amp don't allow them to open up at all. Those first few watts are swallowed up without much payback. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3626 Registered: Feb-07 | I've noticed that with my McIntosh system Chris. It sounds pretty good at low volumes, but when I turn it up to a reasonable volume the sound becomes more full and balanced. That being said, I've played around with T-Amps before and they sound pretty good at low volumes. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 807 Registered: Jul-07 | I wonder though David whether that's the Mc or the Totems. Is it the Mc that wants to be opened up, or the Totems that need the current to really come alive. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3627 Registered: Feb-07 | Maybe with some of the higher end Totems I could see that. The Sttafs are relatively more sensitive than the rest of Totem line. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 808 Registered: Jul-07 | Have you tried the T-amps on your Totems David ? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3628 Registered: Feb-07 | Nope. I tried them out with a pair of Tannoys I had at one time (around 92 db sensitivity I believe). They sounded pretty good. I also tried them out on my Atoms (really good) and a pair of Klipsch F2's. They actually drove the Klipschs quite nicely, understandably so. |