Saturn vs Mystery player - shock to the system!
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| Archive through January 29, 2010 | Art | 100 |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 497 Registered: Dec-06 | I won't compare the Saturn to the Oppo, but for what it's worth I will compare it to the CA 650BD. I think it will be interesting to hear how a different BR player fares, one that like Oppo is made by a company that tends to put an emphasis on audio quality. But I get the sense that people are more focused on the Oppo player. Might do a comparison to the Exposure 2010s2 or 3010s2 as well, but time will tell. I'm not sure I understand the venom directed at Rega though. Putting aside quality control (though what issues people have had with Rega CDP's I wonder, other than glitches which weren't a big deal as soon as a few months ago) and customer service issues, the Apollo and Saturn have had almost unanimous praise and were seen as probably the best options at their respective price points. It wasn't long ago that seemingly this whole forum was singing that tune. As long as Rega can say that their player sounds as good or better than competing players, they pretty much have the right to ask people to pay what they want to charge. No one is forced to buy it, and if someone does it's presumably because they found that the Rega is better than the competition at that price point. Which brings us back to the idea that this validates Rega's chosen asking price. Then there is the question of whether it is even fair to compare a player like the Saturn to a Blu Ray player, if the BR player has some inherent advantage due to the technology it uses as some here have suggested. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2871 Registered: Nov-05 | Sorry Dan, but I have to strongly disagree with you on your idea that "they pretty much haver the right to ask people to pay want they want to charge." The idea of profit is what makes the world go around and I am certainly all for making a profit. Ripping off your customer base however is not my idea of maintaining that customer base. No one is changing their tune about how good the Apollo and Saturn players are - what I was saying is that they should have been much cheaper all along - especially since they were practically walking out the door and they had trouble keeping up with supply. There is something called fair business practice Dan, I would hope anyone here who is in business would practice that. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 498 Registered: Dec-06 | For me it comes down to the Saturn cost US$2,500. Is it as good or better than other $2,500 players out there? If so then it's a fair price. And I believe most folks thought it was as good or better. When you say "trouble keeping up with supply", does that mean Rega had too much supply and therefore had to lower the price? In that case you could definitely argue that the price was too high...and now they've adjusted for it. However, if the performance was up to par with other $2,500 priced players then from that angle they were justified in asking for that sum to start with, and only when sales aren't there should they consider lowering it. That's part of running a business, not necessarily some nefarious scheme. I'm sure the Saturn sells for way more than the cost to produce one unit. I'm sure we could say the same for most if not all high end audio. The margins in this business must be some of the biggest out there. We all know it. I'm just not sure I see anything unethical here. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2872 Registered: Nov-05 | Dan, how can keeping up with supply mean too much supply. Is my english out of whack or something? What I was getting at Dan is that if they can drop the price by one thousand dollars here - there was also a big price drop in your country also if I'm not mistaken, then someone was making too much money. And what they have effectively done to their customers Dan, is they have devalued the product they purchased at the original price immensely. Excuse me if that makes me a little angry. Jeez! It's poor business practice to do that to your customers in my estimation. One might forgive one or two hundred dollars Dan, but a grand. Give me a break! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11964 Registered: Feb-05 | You eluded to the problem, Dan. Rega charged some customers $2599 and shortly thereafter charged others $1799...most customers who paid the $2599 feel burned and I don't blame them. And how is a dealer supposed to explain that to a customer, that is without handing them some money back. So far here in the states the Saturn has retailed for $2599, $2399, back to $2599 and now $1799. There is talk that it will stay at $1799, which by it's performance is about where it should be. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14479 Registered: Dec-04 | I bought a Cadillac, then 6 months later GM was offering 10K off. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14480 Registered: Dec-04 | I have nothing to offer on the BD83/Saturn. I do have an opinion on the BD83SE in pure direct, which lops off all the video functions and goes to the quad of 32 bit DAc's. Smokes! |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3171 Registered: Oct-04 | This guy agrees: http://www.highdefforum.com/blu-ray-players/105987-my-full-oppo-bdp-83se-review. html |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11967 Registered: Feb-05 | Looks like he's using a 10 yr old AVR for his review. I was fortunate enough to get my Saturn at a very good price. Not everyone was. GM frequently offers big discounts and rebates. Just had a friend buy a beautiful Caddy. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 403 Registered: Aug-04 | I understand why some of you feel the way you do about Rega, the Saturn and this price thing. But I can't get my self all worked up over it or offended by it. First and foremost, I didn't pay $2,500 for mine. I was getting that great price long before it became the standard. When I first bought my Saturn and lived with it, I definitely thought it was worth the money I paid and I felt all along it would have been worth the $2,500 price tag; if I had to have paid that. Nothing has changed my mind about this player. I still believe that the better your preamp and amp are, the more you get out of the Saturn. Regardless, the Saturn hasn't suddenly become a cr*p player or some how diminshed in sound quality. The Oppo BD83 is obviously a special player (and SE even better). And that's a good thing! The Saturn was released in 2006. That's four years ago. A lot happens in electronics, in four years. The fact a player like the Oppo competes favorably with the Saturn, four years later, at a much less expensive price; tells you at least Oppo is going in the right direction. Isn't this what we on this hobby would hope for? But it is not an indication that Rega is crooked or screwwing it's customers. This is the way I see it. Ask yourself this. How many audio companies are dropping their prices because of the bad economy? McIntosh? Bryston? B & W? LexiCON? Wilson Audio? Vienna Acoustics? Krell? Sonus Faber? Cambridge Audio? Anthem? Paradigm? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Do you honestly believe that these other companies couldn't sell their products for less and still make a decent profit? Hell, even after being exposed LexiCON has been busy mounting a campaign to convince everyone that they can justify their absurd $3,000 mark up of their Oppo reboxed Blu-Ray player. They don't even have the integrity and honesty to just admit it and drop the price. Nah, they've been preparing a delusional brainwashing campaign, which they think will save their azzes. How messed up is that?!?!?! At least Rega willingly reduced the price. I have no doubt McIntosh and Bryston could do the same, if they really wanted to. Ultimately, this type of thing happens all the time. I buy a newly released DVD for $20-$24 because I want it right away. 8 to 10 months later it's available for $10-$12 dollars. Cars....happens all the time with cars. Playstation or X-Box ...anyone? How many people have been paying top dollar for these game machines, when they first hit the streets? A year or two later, the prices drop down to $200-$250. I could go on and on with examples of all kinds of products. Soon, I'm going to make my first leap into a Blu-Ray player. Yup, you guessed it....the Oppo BD83SE. I bought my Saturn because Iove the sound of the player. I don't regret that. If the Oppo player matches it in every area, I won't be upset. I'll think it's great!! More quality sound, for less money. I'll keep both.....and my Apollos! |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 499 Registered: Dec-06 | Dan, how can keeping up with supply mean too much supply. Is my english out of whack or something? MR, I just didn't understand that line. Not being able to keep up with demand - means too much demand, too little supply. So I just assumed you meant the reverse when you said they couldn't keep up with supply. Supply to me simply means how many Saturns are out there ready to be sold for those who may want to buy one. Maybe prices for all CD players are going to have to come down now, what with the almost certain decline in sales that is on the horizon. But I can see your point in that a $1,000 decline is a tough pill to swallow for those who bought the Saturn at it's highest price. Big discounts on Saturns. Both the Rega and GM versions. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14484 Registered: Dec-04 | NMT, you will not go wrong with this player. It does so much stuff, it is 10 lbs of fun in a 3 lb bag! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11968 Registered: Feb-05 | NMT, I didn't pay a premium for my Saturn either. One of the biggest problems plaguing Rega at present is a downward spiral in quality control. It's been felt by customers and dealers alike. Selling Rega has become very labor intensive and when you add an inexplicable price drop on a product without even letting dealers know you have a recipe for a poor customer/dealer interface. The dealers I know weren't made aware of the price drop until customers told them. A sure indication of poor communication at the distributor level or worse. Rega handles their QC miscues fairly well. But how many times are you going to receive the same turntable in faulty condition before you lose faith in the quality of the product. How many of those products will you attempt to sell when you (the dealer) eat the shipping on every faulty product, when most of the product is faulty. Like you, NMT, I'm not a bit sorry I bought my Saturn. At the price I paid and with the synergy it has in my system I feel very comfortable that I made the right choice. My issue is with Rega, their quality and their distributor's communication. Perhaps they should consider moving manufacturing to China. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2873 Registered: Nov-05 | NMT - I can't get myself or worked up about it either - but I am offended. As I have stated previously I am not slurring the Saturn, I love it. But . . . . . . as a customer, I am angry at Rega! Ask yourself this. How many audio companies are dropping their prices because of the bad economy? McIntosh? Bryston? B & W? LexiCON? Wilson Audio? Vienna Acoustics? Krell? Sonus Faber? Cambridge Audio? Anthem? Paradigm? What's your point - none of them as far as I know. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14487 Registered: Dec-04 | MR, you drove it off the lot. Sales happen. Tech has changed and the price had to come down to sell, even if end of the line quality stuff. The Isis is waiting for you, with an exchange price that may interest you? Sorry Bud, but the market is what it is, and Roy needs new power for the yaught. Yaght. Big boat. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2874 Registered: Nov-05 | Rubbish Nuck - do you see Naim, Macintosh, Bryston etc doing the same thing? Tech hasn't changed at all, the std Oppo has ordinary Cirris dac's. So what's that? The SE - that's a different fish. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14489 Registered: Dec-04 | No sir, I do not see Mac doing the same thing. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11972 Registered: Feb-05 | That would be yacht. I think the primary problem isn't the adjustment that Rega made in the price. I think the issue is around that as a policy or practice. It's not the norm and so no one expected it. Usually a product is introduced at a given price and increases incrementally over the life of the product until a new model is introduced and then the product is discounted to sell off the remaining stock. Very seldom do we see the price fluctuate like we have with the Apollo and Saturn. It happens...just not very often in the audio world. Had some folks known they would have probably waited. Such is life. I did and was rewarded...but I only waited because I couldn't afford it until the price drop. That differs considerably from the new release model relative to movies. We all know that when a movie is released it's at a premium price and that if we are patient it will go down in price. With audio the price usually only decreases as the model is replaced by another and the remaining stock is blown out. It's all about timing, wait too long and it's gone. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14492 Registered: Dec-04 | Wait it out and be rewarded for patience, or buy when it is newish. Always a tough call. Oppo will soon be synonymous like Kleenex for brand/product recognition and everybody will "oppo" the show or tune. Thanks for yacht, Art. Guys, buying anything is ripe for devaluing, and hifi is no different from a Cadillac. Prices go down...markets adjust...builders have internal issues that we don't see...fines are levied for toxic waste and worker rights. Sometimes a product makes big money due to a furious following..see Apple..and things die down. Isis anyone? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11976 Registered: Feb-05 | I'd love an Isis...think I'll wait it out though...lol! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2875 Registered: Nov-05 | Don't fret Art, next year they'll probably reduce the price by $8000 or so :-) |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2034 Registered: Oct-04 | All - I read with great interest all the give-n-take re Saturn prices, and the "shoot-out" with the Saturn and the mystery player/Oppo. And I have a question that is of rather vital interest to me: what differences, if any, might there be if you compare the players using some classical music - orchestral or chamber music. With the more pronounced and complex overtones in this music - I'd be interested to get your input - please. As Mer and I listen to mostly classical, with some jazz thrown here and there, this is our concern. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2876 Registered: Nov-05 | Larry, if I've learnt one thing, if a player does one thing right it usually does it all right. The Oppo - my std one - sounds just as good on classical (my one LSO Beethoven cd) and jazz, let alone rock and blues. In answer to your old dawgs question - by all accounts the SE runs rings (no reference to the Saturn) around the std Oppo. But if you are concerned, as I stated once before, if you buy direct from Oppo you have a 30 day money back (less return freight) option - no questions asked. Personally with dedicated 2 and multi-channel dacs and outputs, I don't believe you can go wrong my friend - and Oppo also offer extra warranty time (at a price of course). |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11981 Registered: Feb-05 | That's pretty much how I see it. With the 30 days no questions asked, it's worth a go. From what I've read, Lar, it's going to be the best player you've ever had by a wide margin. I'd say buy with confidence. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 829 Registered: Oct-07 | Just a thought: If Rega figured the market at x units / month...they would buy so many and be locked into a price. Markup being what it is, it would go for a stable retail price. But, if orders started piling up or they decided to do a lifetime build out, they may be able to negotiate a lower price for using factory capacity more or longer. OPPO knows they will be selling an absolute boatload. They did lots of homework and knew almost without a doubt they hit the sweetspot. Also, they may be willing to suffer lower profits at intro until the buzz hit than up production to lower there costs while the consumer final price remains stable. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14494 Registered: Dec-04 | I concur with the vibe that a really good player can do all types of music well. I had previously enjoyed several players for different genres, as in a Rotel for Rock, Apollo for classical, etc. The Oppo SE is in a different class for redbook. Let alone that it also slices dices and makes julienne fries instantly. This machine has a staggering array of functions and capabilities, not the least of which is a stunning video playback. Larry, if you are considering an investment, I agree with Art, do the trial. You will NOT be disappointed, my friend. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2036 Registered: Oct-04 | Well! I can't fly in the face of your collective knowledge! GRIN The final bit of argument fell by the wayside last night as I was chatting with the husband of one of Mer's students. She had come over to pick up some artwork, and her husband (whom I'd not met) came along, probably out of boredom at home? He was a taciturn chap - originally from London, now retired. We all sorta milled around, and then the husband (Basil) and I awayed to the living room whilst the womenfolk "talked shop" in Mer's studio. After a few tries at small talk, Basil quietly asked: "Do you mind if we fire up your rig?" I was taken aback, but quickly turned on the amp and player. I showed him to the CD collection, and he picked out a Dvorak violin concerto (SACD), smiled, and said, this would do nicely." We sat down (I gave him the "sweet spot") and at first he just nodded and said little. As the music played I asked him what he did as a profession - and he got my attention when he said, "oh, I used to dabble about somewhat in concert halls." It turns out that he's a retired acoustic engineer - had something to do with the London Symphony folk, Abbey Road Studios, and even the new opera house in Nashville. Hmm. . . . After the first movement of the concerto we turned off the music and began talking sonics. . .and that's when I made my final decision to buy the Oppo! Meanwhile - I asked him about my room acoustics, and he at first just said, "a bit live, but not bad." A half hour later he had walked around, and asked: "do you have any more of those shoji screens that you have against the sliding doors?" I brought out another one from a side room, and he placed it mid-way at the open arch leading into the living room. "Now," he said," we have to do something about that grand expanse of wall above the speakers." "Aha!" said I, "I do have two more shoji panels just being stored." "Why not lay them on their sides on that plant shelf above the speakers? That will diminish what I perceive as a bad standing wave situation. I think you'll be pleased." Well - the evening ended and this ayem I got up - eager to see (or hear, actually) IF the guy really had a good idea. HE DID. The folding shoji at the entry way made an amazing difference, and then when I put the two panels atop the plant shelf - angling them just slightly against the wall - I had to sit down and smile, big-time. The room now ceased to echo, and all the music seemed much more focused. Amazing! Anyway - to the Oppo - Mer and I discussed money, and she allowed as how the Oppo cost much less than a half-dozen concerts would cost, with ticket prices around here going from $55 to $90 USD for each person. Hmm. . . that cinched it. How much better to enjoy unlimited "concerts" for the price of a half dozen! Logic, it seems, overcomes emotion at times. Respectfully. . .LarryR PS - Basil and his wife will be coming over for dinner in about a week, and we'll surely review his/my "room tweaks." Stay tuned. . . . . . |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 405 Registered: Aug-04 | I have a few decorative screens. Been thinking of getting a few Shoji Panles, too. Larry, would mind sharing what kind of Shoji panels you have and where you bought them? Which panels did you use, on their sides, on that plant shelf above the speakers? Would it be too much to ask for a pic or a link to a indentical or similar panel? Thank you. Looking forward to future updates. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2037 Registered: Oct-04 | NMyTree - will be happy to send some pics - but I understand that's very difficult on the Forum. If you wish, e-mail me at wryte4u@gmail.com and give me your e-mail address. I'll send along some pics by tomorrow that way. The shoji screens we have came from one of those "world market" type stores that you find most everywhere. From Singapore, I think - just teak-colored frames with rice paper background. Mer loves them, and so the WAF is not a problem with using them. Unlike some "sound panels" I tried to put up - and got quickly vetoed and taken down! (grin) "Tweaking" a room is frustrating, but when a few changes make the difference I noted so far - well, it's more than worth it! Shojis are, of course, not for everyone - but as we already have three in the living room - the new ones are not a glaring addition. Mer does not like drapes - so the shojis serve as both privacy screens and sound-absorbing units. Thanks for the posting. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11987 Registered: Feb-05 | Just got back from a friends shop. He's also my tech and was giving my Sonneteer a well child checkup and indeed it is quite well. He also sells Paradigm, Marantz and some other used odds and ends. Used to sell NAD but not anymore. He also sells Oppo and had the BD83SE hooked up playing through some Paradigm speakers that I'd never heard (or heard of for that matter) the SE 3 from the new Special Edition series and using the matching sub, which was very good I might add. The BD83SE will go up against his modded NADC542 at his home with his NHT speakers and Audio Research electronics. I'll add that he's had enough of the NHT's (Classic 4's) and will be looking for another speaker soon. He will also be lending the BD83SE out to 2 other customers for listens as well. I will be able to have it in a couple of weeks to listen to. My first impression with it at his store, is that it is very good, but not in the same company with the Saturn. Excellent resolution, but not quite as smooth at the top as the Saturn. We listened to the HDMI audio (through the receiver DAC) vs the dedicated 2 channel with the special DAC's and the difference was not subtle. The DAC on the SE is special and it's performance very good indeed. Don't fear Lar...it's as good a universal as I've heard...so far. Jim is very excited about it and states pretty emphatically that it's the first universal player that he's heard that does redbook right. He is also just as sure that a high end stand alone player will still be better...but he wants to test it at home to be sure. Enough on that for now. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2038 Registered: Oct-04 | Ah, Art - a fine and welcome posting from you, sir! I'm glad that, given your audio experience, you find the 83SE worthy of at least a second audition! For me, it's the 83SE or nothing - I'm stretching budgets way past the max to get it, and as M.R. so wisely points out, I've got 30 days to "make or break" the player - so I've got nothing but time and a bit of shipping money to lose. Been listening a LOT today - after "modding" my listening/living room. The acoustic engineer seems to be on the right track, though I'm still not satisfied with the overall ambiance. But heck, at least I don't hear a big echo every time I snap my fingers! GRIN That's progress. . . Thanks to strong urgings from Verne's son Mark, out in LA, I'm starting to put a lot of my CDs on SD memory cards. It makes a lot of sense to me, so we'll see how the project goes. Got a filing system, and my early auditioning hints at better overall sound warmth than I get from the CD playback itself. So far. . . The new Oppo has very flexible USB capabilities, which might bode well for my project, and the future of my CD storage/playback. Mark says to trash the CDs as fast as possible, and put ev-thing on cards, as he and his recording engineer friends have been doing for some time. SIGH. I feel that I get stupider and stupider re Real-fi every day. Art - I look forward eagerly to your in-home review of the 83SE. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2878 Registered: Nov-05 | My first impression with it at his store, is that it is very good, but not in the same company with the Saturn. Excellent resolution, but not quite as smooth at the top as the Saturn Art, now I'm really worried about what's wrong with me or our system. I can't differentiate between the std BDP-83 and our Saturn, yet you claim the SE is not in the same company. Maybe the std is better than the SE - ha, ha I really don't think so. It seems somewhere, somehow, I have a problem. I hope it's not a biological one - but then that would make my wife suspect also. It seems I have some more experimenting to do. Btw - how much run-in time had the Oppo had? Larry, good story about your friend and the screens. As far as the Oppo is concerned, I believe you and Mer will be very happy with it. Wait until you see those HD classical or opera bluray titles |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11990 Registered: Feb-05 | He's had the Oppo for a while and plays it daily at the shop. I really won't know how it compares until I have it home. Both Jim and I are sure that it won't compare to the Saturn, and frankly that's OK. It's in a different price category. I might hang on to my Apollo for a comparison as well. Damn cool that he has the doggone thing. I forgot that he sold Oppo. He told me sometime back that he was holding off getting a BD player until Oppo released one and he got a bit lazy after they did...when the SE hit the market he snapped it up right away. He has 2 sold already. Keep in mind that because Oppo does most of their business online the markup for Jim is near to nil, however he can offer it at retail without shipping. I'm still considering buying one for my HT. It'll be awhile before I have the scratch but it may be worth it. The Oppo's build quality was quite nice and it has nice heft to it. I really do think it's a fabulous buy at $900 and unless the Apollo stomps it in my home, it will become my default recommendation at it's price. From what I heard over the course of a couple of hours with electronics and speakers that are not in the same league as mine, it is a player with good resolution, excellent bass and good detail. Soundstage was a bit forward but quite 3 dimensional. The top end and separation of instruments is where I will be interested in doing some critical listening. When cold the Oppo is quite bright but settles down quite nicely within an hour...quite different than the Saturn which is a bit diffuse and uninvolving when cold, and warms into a very involving and detailed machine (over the course of days not hours). Make no mistake folks the Saturn is worlds apart from the Apollo. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11993 Registered: Feb-05 | Anybody know anything about this. Probably the last step to making the SE a real monster. http://www.nuforce.com/hi/products/oppo_bdp83se/bdp83-faq.php# |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2039 Registered: Oct-04 | Short-lived "tweaks." BIG SIGH. Mer came home from a bad day at the art school - and came into the living room, where I was playing a piano concerto (on the Oppo, not the piano!!) She allowed as how the music sounded "better," but quickly dissed the folding screen in the front entryway. SIGH. OK - it's gone. She did not notice the shoji screens on the plant shelf above the speakers until we sat down to dinner. Then it hit. In the interest of civility and Forum rules, I'll just say that the bottom line is: the panels gotta go tomorrow. Period. BIGGEST SIGH. Mer and I are not speaking at the moment. . . . . I remember being happy as a bachelor. . . . . . . . . Tomorrow I start wearing my Sennheiser earphones - period. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11994 Registered: Feb-05 | Sorry to hear that, Larry. I hate headphones... You need a dedicated room I suppose...my wife and I are talking about converting part of the garage (about 11.5 x 15.5 ft of it) for a dedicated room for me. I would love that! It's not much space, but I'd make due. Plus I'd still have my little home office...someday maybe. Until then my sound may be compromised by the room but it still sounds fabulous. You may just have to enjoy what you have, Lar. Now go and apologize to Mer. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2040 Registered: Oct-04 | No, Art. Ain't a-goin' tah do dat. She's the one who got all hot and bothered, and I just bowed and said, "yes 'um." SIGH |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11995 Registered: Feb-05 | LOL!!! Sorry, Lar. It ain't funny, I know. Moments of marital discord are not a bit of fun. Since she's already pissed, perhaps you should put yer foot down. Tell her that her friends husband, a professional sound engineer made the mods and it would be impolite to reverse them, especially since you will be entertaining them in your home, soon. Tell her that to leave the mods in place would be to show gratitude...maybe by the time they come and go she will have gotten used to them. |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1106 Registered: Jun-08 | It's just my two cents but Larry, I'm sure you know better than to go down the road Art has laid, you may be setting a funeral up for your new friend the sound engineer. Better yet, see if the sound engineer has a way of getting the same results with something the wife might accept more readily - maybe he's got a trick or two up his sleeve. Keep hoping there's a way to get back your audio nirvanna. Cheers, G |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2041 Registered: Oct-04 | Uhhh - you guys have any extra space for an old reporter up thar in Canada? (grin) I'm letting her sleep on the problem, and will hope for less tension on the morrow. But once Mer digs in her spurs - - - - sigh. So - the panels will go in my den, where they will make a nice addition to my bare plant shelves. (who designed those darned thangs, anyway?) Me thinks that Basil is an accommodating sort, so he and I shall have a liddle phone-chat. Who knows? He may even think it's funny. . . .yeah. NMyTree - scrap the photos I sent! They're history now. . . . .SIGH Earphones. . . . .and wine. Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11997 Registered: Feb-05 | George, you're taking all of the fun out of it! |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1107 Registered: Jun-08 | Oh, I know Art - let's just say, I've felt the spurs only too often - took the kick right outta me years ago but oh well - alls fair in love and war. Larry - what's the flavour of those headphone - I'm of the Grado persuassion myself. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2042 Registered: Oct-04 | Harrummph! Art! It's easy to be a rabble-rouser when you're way, way out there in Albany, Oregon - and I'm stuck way, way back here in Swamp,er, Naples, Flawed-duh! GRIN With due respect. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2043 Registered: Oct-04 | Ah, George - they're Sennheiser model 130 wireless phones - got them to save the marriage. Mer's hearing is so acute that she hears gnats mating, and I struggle to understand standard TV movies. SIGH. So - I awayed to the Internet and got these marvelous phones - I can hear movies very well, and Mer can sit on her end of the sofa with the TV sound turned down so low I can't hear it even when I take off the phones! No longer does she yell at me to "Turn Down the Volume!!!!!!!" Now - what did you say? (grin) Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 834 Registered: Oct-07 | deepest sympathy, Larry. Now, back to the Oppo '83. The modders are already at it. Value? you tell me. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1267399705&/Oppo-Trueharmonix-bd p-83ex-extreme |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2282 Registered: May-06 | Art, you said your tech Jim sells Oppo and Marantz? One of the local dealers here says he finds the Marantz 7004 to outperform the OppoBDP83SE, and favorably compares the Marantz 8002 to $5K CD players. Can you find out what you friend thinks or if he put them both up against any substantial CD players for redbook playback? |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 406 Registered: Aug-04 | Sorry to hear of your conflict, Larry. Thanks again for the pics, though. I would suggest you refrain from mentioning this was your friends idea. In terms of conflict with the finer gender, that's the equivelent of throwing him under the bus. It's very likely she'll harbour a grudge against him and stir up some more trouble, with him. Wait till she calms down and then have a civilized sit down with her and gently explain. That, nothing you did has any permanent ramifications and that it could all be easily moved; so her reaction was a bit unreasonable and over-blown. Out of proportion. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 407 Registered: Aug-04 | Just a thought, Larry. Maybe you could ask your friend if some lovely 18"x 18" or 20" x20" decorative pillows, placed up on that overhead shelf (above the TV); would achieve the same acoustic goal as the Shoji panel did. If he says yes, then maybe you can ask Mer how she would feel about placing four lovely decorative pillows ( design of her choice) up there. Just a thought. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12001 Registered: Feb-05 | The most substantial player Jim will compare the Oppo to is the modded NAD C542 that he has at home. He has a friend who bought a Saturn from the same folks I did and has a system consisting Aronov (I think that's how you spell it) electronics and Maggie speakers and I'm pretty sure he is going to compare the Oppo to the Saturn. Jim only recently stopped selling NAD and has not stocked any Marantz CD players, in fact he does little to no walk in business and relies on home install of HT gear to make ends meet. Consequently he carries nothing in the store that he doesn't think he can turn around pretty quickly. I was very surprised to see the Paradigm SE speakers. That seems like something you usually would have to order from him. I can tell you this, I have a couple of other friends in Eugene that sell Marantz and whom I would guess stock the Marantz players...at least I hope they've heard the buzz. I'll give them a call. The most recent generation of Marantz players appears to be very good from what I'm hearing. The Marantz SR5004 AVR will become my default recommendation for an AVR. Beautiful build and sounds great. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2283 Registered: May-06 | I appreciate it Art. I look forward to hearing what they have to say. In the meantime I will see what I can find online. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14506 Registered: Dec-04 | Beating the 83SE is liely very doable for redbook. It is a question of the entire package as well. However, to keep me on track for once, the 83SE is a very worthy redbook cdp for 947 Canadian dollars. As stacked 32 bit DAC's become more common, everybody will fall in line and prices will drop. Sorry M.R.! I have not seen pricing on modding the BDP83 to SE DAC's, but it seems a fairly simple upgrade. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 408 Registered: Aug-04 | I have another idea/suggestion, Larry. Maybe even a few (three our four) canvas paintings placed up there on the shelf and leaning slightly back against the wall. Ask your acoustics expert friend if either one of these suggestions would help address the acoustic goals of the panels. Again, Mer could play a great part in choosing the paintings. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12005 Registered: Feb-05 | The upgrade to SE is $300 US. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2044 Registered: Oct-04 | Well, now. . . .I come to this Forum for both marital and electronics advice - and get both! GRIN Thanx for all the suggestions - things have settled down a bit today, and the offending panels now reside on the plant shelf (hate 'em!) in my den, where they look Boffo. SIGH The more I read about all the shoot-outs with the new Oppo the more I think I should sit back, relax, and wait awhile until I get more information before I lay down my hard-earned nickels. You chaps are obviously way ahead and above me in terms of both experience and kit-buying capabilities - so I listen intently to y'all. Meanwhile, life goes on. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 409 Registered: Aug-04 | ....and since Mer is an artist, that shelf up there could be used to showcase three or four of her canvas works. How could she get upset at your suggestion to proudly display her fine art work, right there in the living room? |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2286 Registered: May-06 | Lar, How about suggesting to Mer that instead of putting the money into a Blu-ray player you instead buy these Chinese Diffusers / Screens for $1,150 on Audiogon; http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1269449214&/China-Traditional-Acoustic-Dif  .......... ......and then the fight started. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2045 Registered: Oct-04 | OK, OK, OK! I get it already, guyz! BIG GRIN Thanks (I think) for all of your suggestions. . . .or whatever. All will work out - eventually - I think - I hope - maybe. . . . . However, those screens. . . . . .ummmmmmmmm Respectful-like. . . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2046 Registered: Oct-04 | One atta time - I just read a BDP-83SE review on Amazon.com - and the guy was plainly in love with his new rig! The only review on Amazon that I've read so far - just adding ammunition to those of you who are quietly pressing me to get off my duff and spend some moolah! GRIN REspectfully. . .LarryR |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2879 Registered: Nov-05 | Do it Larry! There's no better value for an all-in-one bluray player on the planet. There might be next year or it might be another five who knows? But it's not too often that just about every video/audio mag sing such high praises for one product - let alone those lowly ecoustics guys.  And I see Mer won yet another one - what's the score now? (big grin). |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12014 Registered: Feb-05 | It's clearly the best universal player at anywhre near the money, Larry. get on board before they realize what they've done and raise the price. It'll also be the best redbook you and SACD you've had in your home. At 9 bills, it's a no brainer. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2880 Registered: Nov-05 | Here is the upgrade kit info. Unfortunately it is time limited, but I am hoping the aussie dealers can still obtain some. I have my name down. http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83SE/blu-ray-BDP-83SE-UpgradeOption.aspx |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14508 Registered: Dec-04 | Nice touch with renewing the warranty and splitting shipping. Too bad the reseller here didn't get the parts till well through January... |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2047 Registered: Oct-04 | M.R. - had to get out my calculator. Let's see - after 28 years - Mer 4,648 Lar 13 Not bad, I guess! GRIN REspectfully. . .LarryR Oh,yes - will probably order the 83SE in March. SIGH |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2883 Registered: Nov-05 | Time to put on the pants Larry. LOL! But I understand - even when you win, you can't win. Revelation coming in March then. Good decision my friend. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3175 Registered: Oct-04 | Good review of the Oppo BDP83 in Affordable Audio this month. http://www.affordableaudio.org/aa2010-02.pdf |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2903 Registered: Nov-05 | Good review Chris. Well after all my ranting and whinging about the Saturns inability to rise above the std Oppo BD-83, it appears I was wrong. I have moved both speakers and equipment, but only a little and I now find I prefer the Saturn. It is a little smoother in the highs and overall is a little more musically pleasing. But not by a large margin - which still echoes very high praise for the Oppo imho! I don't really know what accounted for my previous conclusions, I really doubt moving the speakers and equipment could alter similarities to differences. But I wondered about one thing in particular: humidity. The past couple of months has been very hot and humid here until the past week when the climate has been more normal. In fact reading up on the info relating to my equipment I have been running our gear at most times well above the stated operating humidity and on occassion, temperature. It leaves me wondering two things: 1. Does very high humidity affect sound quality? 2. Does very high humidity affect how well the equipment operates? Actually this leads to a third question: does very high humidity affect both SQ and equipment operation? And a forth question now arises: could very high humidity affect hearing? Any clues? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 809 Registered: Jul-07 | High humidity could certainly affect connections....degrading them quicker than when the humidity is lower. Moving equipment around sometimes will change things for the better or worse, depending on how well the connections went back together, how wires are routed, etc. If you haven't cleaned your connections recently it might not be a bad idea. Running those amps at very hot temps and high humidity may also be a problem. They already run pretty hot don't they MR ? I'd almost be worried about damage, let alone degraded sonics, if they get too warm. As to how it might affect hearing, all I know is that on the rare occasion it gets like that here, I'm completely tapped out and don't even think effectively so I could see my hearing acuity being affected....perhaps not because my ears aren't functioning, but because my brain isn't. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2904 Registered: Nov-05 | Chris, yep they do run hot. Though I didn't mention it, I do aim a small fan to the monoblocks when it's very hot - but I hadn't thought about the humidity or the other components. There doesn't seem to have been any adverse effect on any of the gear and all wiring and connections are in tip top condition - something I always check and maintain. What you said about brain not functioning is about right for me also under those conditions. But this entire episode has me intrigued. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2905 Registered: Nov-05 | I found this: http://www.rane.com/pdf/ranenotes/Enviromental%20Effects%20on%20the%20Speed%20of %20Sound.pdf 4 SUMMARY Environmental effects change the velocity and the absorption of sound in air. Even seemingly small percentage changes may cause serious listening problems in enclosed acoustic spaces. If room alignments down to tenths of an inch are to be meaningful, temperature and humidity should be controlled tightly. Fractional changes in the wavelengths of frequencies traveling thousands of cycles can easily result in 180° phase reversal upon arrival. No matter how small the change in the temperature, no matter how slight the humidity shift, the waves arrive shifted in phase and the resultant combination differs from the original. It will not be the way it was when the room was equalized. Not only will the waves' phase be shifted, but for higher frequencies their magnitudes will be different due to the changes in absorption. Much time is spent developing and using incremental time-delay devices to correct pictures shown by TDS instrumentation. An equal time spent in understanding and controlling the effects presented here is now required. The use of time-delay tools is valid, but remember, the implicit assumption being made is that the speed of sound does not change. Without rigid environmental controls this is a false assumption. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14494 Registered: May-04 | .  |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 811 Registered: Jul-07 | I don't quite see the argument they are putting forward. If the speed of sound is in fact altered given temperature and humidity changes (that part I can buy, but I'd like to see just how significant that change is) would it not still be a constant, ie consistent at a point in time. I'm not sure how phase inversion can take place given a constant velocity. Further, given we're only talking about sound traveling a few feet, the opportunity for this variation (presumably very very slight) to be perceptible seems also slight. Either way, I don't think I'll add a climate control system to my listening room just yet. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14497 Registered: May-04 | . The article refers to an "equalized" room (which is a major portion of Rane's business in the commercial audio world - a quick read of the third paragraph of the introduction should explain most of what you need to know here) so some corrections have been made to the signal at a different temperature and humidity. Phase deflections are then occurring due to the present temps and humidity which will affect the speed of the signal most especially at the high frequencies in comparison to the lowest frequencies. Consider the dashes below to be high and low frequencies "launched" from the same plane (from the same vertical source) and possibly you can see how atmospheric changes can affect the arrival at the listener's ears with increasing distance. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Of course the difference between the highest frequencies and the lowest frequencies does leave out that vast middle ground where phase is still relatively in synch with the octave above and beneath the target frequency. This has long been one of the arguments for the efficacy of time and phase alignment in consumer speaker systems. No matter what you do to affect time and phase relationships in multi-way speaker systems, if you split the signal to two or more drivers you will typically alter the launch plane of the signal from each driver. That difference affects time arrival. If a crossover of any sort other than the purely mechanical rolloff of each driver is employed - i.e. a single cap or inductor - you will shift the electrical phase of the signal and the drivers will react to a shared signal at differing times therefore being 90° out of electrical phase. This is normally measured as "step response" and the is the reason many designers connect high and low frequency drivers "out of phase" with each other. In that scenario perceived time and phase can only be correct at a single distance away from the speaker system (if at all) and, if you sit closer or more distant, the time and phase are once again shifted. I've never seen a speaker manufacturer who touted their time and phase aligned speakers mention the exact distance away from their speakers where both values would be in synch since this might cost them some customers who could not accomodate such a set up. I would also have to agree the distances travelled in a normal consumer system would be very unlikely to have the effect Rane reports considering the rather large time and phase anomolies inherent in most multi-way speaker systems to begin with. If you take the time to red the article, you'll see the thesis of the paper is based on a distance of at least 90' to throw two signals 1/2 cycle out of acoustic phase. This takes into account only the direct signal path from single source (one loudspeaker) to the listener and effectively ignores the multiple reflections which occur and which account of infinite numbers of out of phase and time smeared information in any real world space with more than a mono sound source. But take note the paper supports the concept of "banks of equalizers and time delay units" available to "fight" the problem described in the paper. I seriously doubt this article could logically be employed as a reason for the shifting preferences of the listener. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14498 Registered: May-04 | . It might be worth mentioning that during "A-B-X" or any sort of blind testing comparisons the case can easily be made (using quite conventional measurements) that a very slight movement of your head - some would say as little as 1" in any direction - can cause significant phase and time shifts dependent upon frequency which will result in comb filtering unlike what was previously heard. And, of course, if you move the speakers - even if "only a little" - the same results should be expected. Wiping a connection by plugging and unplugging is a good way to alter results. So too would be repositioning the physical space where the equipment resides. Not to mention a host of other reasons for shifting predilections in an uncontrolled environment. https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=1822161#POST1822161 . |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 855 Registered: Oct-07 | San Diego's outdoor pipe organ sounds much better in cool / damp weather. I don't like the 'summer sound' which is not as full. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 812 Registered: Jul-07 | Interesting observation Leo. I wonder how much of that change in presentation is the effects of temperature and humidity within the airspace, and how much is from it's affects directly on the instrument (ie the organ). Any wooden parts particularly would be affected. I know my acoustic guitar sounds different in the winter than in the summer. Which now makes me wonder about the effect on speakers. MR's Quad's could certainly be affected, just like my guitar. Now, would that help conceal differences between upstream components ? I would think the potential is there. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2907 Registered: Nov-05 | I thought the report was a bit far fetched especially applied to a small listening environment. But I do notice at times small sonic improvements or deterioration depending on the weather or time of day. But even so, if there was an improvement/deterioration in my case due to the very humid weather returning to normality, I would have thought it would apply to both sources being played so I shouldn't notice one being better over the other when before I found it hard to pick a difference. I only moved the speakers about 4 inches further apart, and the audio racks about 6 inches more away from the right speaker, so I really can't see why that would change my perception of one source improving over the other. Maybe it's all in my head. This wouldn't have bothered me as much I suppose if the Oppo was the special edition model, and I've also considered if there was something wrong with the Saturn as to why it's not crapping all over the Oppo. Is it possible that a player could have a problem that lowers sound quality a little without degrading it? It makes me wonder as the Saturn does sound wonderful - but the Oppo is hot on its tail. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2908 Registered: Nov-05 | Chris, I had wondered about the effect on the speakers - especially the cones. I agree about the guitar - the tone is better in cooler less humid weather. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14544 Registered: Dec-04 | 3 words... air con-dition hehe |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12077 Registered: Feb-05 | I think both Jan and I eluded to it a long time ago. The Saturn can only be as good as the associated gear. At this point the bottleneck is probably the speakers...not sure though. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 813 Registered: Jul-07 | The other thing that comes to mind is the power grid. From working with the local power utility here for a few years, I know that transformers run a lot more efficiently in cold weather. I think you've got some power cleaning equipment deployed MR, so perhaps this wouldn't be a huge factor. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2909 Registered: Nov-05 | Nuck, I'd love air-con, but we are not spending any more money on the house. We hope to sell it in the next year or two as a developement site - emphasis on hope. Can't see it being the speakers Art, although they can be bettered, there's not much that can out do them given their price. Besides, they haven't prevented my ears hearing benefits from one component to other in the past. Having said that, new speakers are on my wish list, but it will be some time before that happens. Chris, I have got a power conditioner/regulator and it does not degrade the sound - in fact I'm sure it benefits it. However, I did disconnect the gear from it to be sure that wasn't the problem. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 419 Registered: Aug-04 | I still think it's the preamp that's the bottleneck. Just my opinion....don't kill me over it   |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2910 Registered: Nov-05 | Never kill anyone for an opinion NMT, so long as it's the same as mine. Ha ha! You could be well be right - I haven't a clue. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 420 Registered: Aug-04 | And I think Art maybe alos be right. It could be the Quad 22L, too. Both the P3 premp and Quad 22L. That's not me saying those are bad pieces. They definitely are good pieces. but honestly, I don't believe they are up to the task of allowing the Saturn to play up to it's full potential. Both in terms of living up to the quality level of the Saturn and in synergy. I owned the Qaud 22L for well over a year. I know those speakers. And I also owned the P3 for a few months. I know that preamp. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12078 Registered: Feb-05 | "Can't see it being the speakers Art, although they can be bettered, there's not much that can out do them given their price. I believe they are truly excellent speakers. However there is a point where a component or speaker can no longer give you the best from the others, especially if the system finds itself just a bit out of balance. NMT, I wasn't going to say the pre amp, but I have to agree. Might be neither, but I believe as you do that those 2 pieces are where the imbalance lies. Ofcourse, I reserve the right to be wrong...lol! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2911 Registered: Nov-05 | Taken on advisement NMT - but if that's true then I'm stuck with the problem for some time. However, I'd say it would point more to the P3 as I stated before, I could hear increments in SQ previously - C542 to Apollo, Apollo to Cary P1, then Apollo SE, and to the Saturn. After having the Saturn I intorduced the P3 tried it with the A5 MF without much difference and now with the Xindak mono blocks which definately aren't the problem. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2074 Registered: Oct-04 | But of course, sir, you have checked your ears for wax build-up recently, right? EVIL GRIN |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 421 Registered: Aug-04 | Well of course I could be wrong, too. Wouldn't be the first time. You know, the biggest problem I had with the Quad 22L was finidng the right synergy. I tried so many different combos with the Quad22L (including the P3 with the Parasound A21 amp and nothing worked for my ears. I gave them all plenty of time to grow on me. But didn't work for me. As silly as it sounds, I didn't like the Quad 99 preamp and Quad 909 with them. Thought that would be the natural, synergentic combo. But musically speaking, it did nothing for me. Then entered the Wharfedale Opus 2 and they immediately killed the Quad 22L in musicality. So I sold the Quad 22L. But I simply could never get the sound I love from them. For as long time I thought it was just me choosing the wrong gear, room acoustics and I worked on correcting all that. But still.....nothing. I couldn't get the 22L to sound right to my ears. For some reason, they always seemed quite a bit void of musicality. Melody never sounded right to me, through them. There were times where I got them to sound failry sweet and the dynamics were very nice. But still ....something was missing. I gave up on them, sold them and moved on. best of luck to you, M. R. Hope you get there, soon. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2293 Registered: May-06 | Moving speakers 4 inches creates significant changes, no matter what direction the movement. You may find that the Saturn benefits from one placement where the Oppo benefits from a different placement. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12081 Registered: Feb-05 | Good point. I change placement with every change to my system. First I wait and listen for a couple of weeks, then make adjustments. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14500 Registered: May-04 | . "San Diego's outdoor pipe organ sounds much better in cool / damp weather. I don't like the 'summer sound' which is not as full." That's probably because a thousand or so people in woolen sweaters provide better acoustic absorption. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2912 Registered: Nov-05 | Well NMT, I can't agree with you on the Quads, and while there will be some who might, they have plenty of fans. Although I don't believe they are the problem, I don't believe they are unbeatable by any means. The Saturn may well improve with higher end gear, but I seriously believe it should shine with even my humble set up - and it does and it's obvious the Oppo does also. And I know my set up and room isn't optimum for sound quality by far, but it's not that bad either as many people have listened and commented on how wonderful it all sounds - and not condescendingly so. And yes, Larry, the ears are clean, but how good they are may up for debate, though I do get comments that I have good hearing. Who knows? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2913 Registered: Nov-05 | Listen guys, I really appreciate all the comments and advice - that's why I'm here - you may well be right or partially right and I wouldn't really know unless I change out some of my gear, but I really don't think it's that low end that the Saturn shouldn't absolutely beat the heck out of - especially - a standard Oppo no matter how many raves it has. They both sound extremely good, with the Saturn ahead by a small margain - maybe my small margin is a large margin to some of you guys - I dunno. Just thinking out loud. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 422 Registered: Aug-04 | M.R. That was my experience with them. It applies to my ears and ears only. My tastes only. I'm nit implying you or anyone else will hear the same and experience the sam as I did. Nor am I putting the 22L down. They are nice speakers. Just not for me. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2914 Registered: Nov-05 | I understand that NMT. We are all different - though maybe not to an alien. |
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Silver Member Username: LamcamOrange County, CA USA Post Number: 170 Registered: Nov-07 | IMO, build a system around the speakers. Start with speakers, get an amp to match it, then source. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2916 Registered: Nov-05 | Okay Loc that sounds good. Get speakers. Bring home amp after amp to see what matches, although we have no source yet so we can't really tell how the amp and speakers make music, but at least we can see how pretty they look together. However, we carry on regardless and then bring source after source home to try and match the amp and speakers. But then, the source might mate well with the amp, but not the speakers. How can we tell, so we'll have to start over again. Another source, amp or speakers? Okie dokie.  Sorry, you could be right, but doing the opposite could be right also. Or starting in the middle maybe. Ain't it great that we can't send Rega UK an email. No email contact on their website. Just wonderful! |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 517 Registered: Dec-06 | Well, the speakers are the part of a system that actually projects the sound and of course play a huge part in how a system sounds. So I think there is some logic in determining what speaker you want first, which in turn will dictate what kind of amp you can use. This isn't to say you can then skimp on the source just because it's the last consideration, since ultimately what you hear is a combination of all components working together. So a speaker may dictate what kind of amp you need, which may then dictate to some degree the source. I see a logical progression in going this route. But it's not like you can't start at the source or amp, and with a more modest amp it might simply limit your choice of speaker. But then that's the same way that a certain speaker may limit your choice of amp. I've come to learn that there are so many variables in this game. When one changes you simply adjust another one. It's not like when one changes you cannot make an adjustment elsewhere and you are stuck forever with a system that sounds bad. Ideally at the start you will choose one thing first (eg. source), and then your next two choices (amp and speakers) are made with the whole system in mind. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 858 Registered: Oct-07 | Jan, I've sat in mild drizzle with maybe 40 other lunatics. We all ran for it when the concert of 1 hour ended. Summer crowds are big, sometimes several hundred since that is also 'tourist season'. Balboa Park is pretty darn famous. At 85f / 0 humidity, it's a different sound than @65f, and near-rain. The suggestion has been made that the instrument itself changes due to the weather. I can go for this. I don't know the heat / humidity situation in the pipe room. I suspect it is just dry in there since it would be quite a shock to simply 'open it up' to the outside and have the pipes / keyboard etc go from warm to ambient instantly. Especially during Christmas where it can be as low as the 30s outside. On my one walkthru of the pipe room it was the same temp as outside. http://cache.virtualtourist.com/485884-Spreckels_Organ_Pavilion-San_Diego.jpg |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2917 Registered: Nov-05 | Okay, if you start at the speaker, how do you know that's THE speaker for you? You must have heard it with a source and an amp right? So why not buy that source and amp if it sounded so good that was the speaker you want in the first place? It begs questions. It didn't work for you Dan, you've been choppin' and changin' for some time now. Not knocking you, many of us have for one reason or another. Let's say we did start with the speaker. Okay we found a good amp and source. Suddenly we heard another speaker we must have. We sell our speakers and put in the new ones. But they don't sound so good now with our amp and source. Now what? |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12086 Registered: Feb-05 | Build a system for synergy and not around a single piece of it. What I've learned is that you have to know what you want and set out to put together a system that meets your needs. Once I started working with Dale Shepherd at Eugene HiFi, I became aware of more my HIFi needs and was able to put together a system that exceeds my expectations. We understood that no one component was any good on it's own and had to be mated with other pieces that have similar sonic characteristics or design goals. That's not to say that the system won't change as it certainly will, however I have a better idea of how to make changes that will improve the system and not just change it. |
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Gold Member Username: Larry_rNaples, FL Post Number: 2075 Registered: Oct-04 | Art, how lucky you are to be working with someone who is both knowledgeable and understanding! How few of us can boast that, unfortunately. For me, it's been "listen to the Forum guys and then take a step at a time." SIGH. As y'all know - sometimes that's worked - sometimes it has failed. For some time I lusted after the B&W speakers - then I found some used on AudioGon - bought them - well, it would seem that my "like new" speakers weren't exactly that. But at least I had them! GRIN I'd be rather afraid to go out and buy speakers, then try to match one piece of kit with them at a time. How the heck does one DO that? Over the years I've looked to Jan and others for excellent, if sometimes controversial, electronics advice. And I've taken the advice of Art and others on things musical. Overall, "youz guyz" have improved my kit and my listening experience times a hundred - with my thanks. But I'm still curious as to why one would have some speakers lying about, then try to put together a system, piece by piece - UNLESS - you've heard just what you want in a stereo store, or at somebody else's home? Yesterday I hastened to a chap's home - to deliver some art from Mer - and was greeted at the door by a blast of Mozart. Had to go inside to hear the man's setup - it sounded very clear and natural. Turns out he has a NAD receiver a bit newer than mine, and his mains speakers were ones I'd read that My Rantz and others used - Quad 12L speakers. I was immediately drawn to their musicality - and felt the old urge. . . . .y'all know it well. . . ."uh, they sound better than my 705s." Etc. Etc. Etc. No - I can't afford to even think of trading, but I got to thinking about starting over with speakers first, then other gear. I'm afraid I'd have to hear the whole package before I took any plunge re a single aspect of the electronic chain. But what are dreams for? Respectfully. . . LarryR |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 519 Registered: Dec-06 | You are right MR, I've been changing a lot. But I didn't start with the speakers. I just got my Quad 12L2 and love them with my current amp and CDP. If anything, in the current configuration, I decided on my amp first. Heard it at the dealer in combination with a source and speakers each costing thousands of dollars more, and the sound was just amazing. The amp certainly didn't reveal itself as the weak link, and the sound was exactly what I wanted. I reasoned that the amp could do the job, and I bought it, with the intention in the future of adding the matching CD player and then finding a set of speakers that work. Tried the MA RS5, it was good but there were issues. So I jumped to Quad and the results so far are great. Before this there wasn't much planning going on. I was just trying different gear that I bought at a discount. I don't necessarily regret it, it helped me identify the sound I like. But the speaker I think I most liked so far is PMC, but I heard it with an Audiolab 8000S and my little Denon mini-system as source and preamp. I'm definitely not going to use those if I get the PMC. My purchase of exposure amp and CDP was in part done with the PMC in mind as the long term match. I think the synergy will be there, but I'll have to listen first. So in the long run perhaps I am starting off with speakers, even though they will end up being the last purchase. Okay, if you start at the speaker, how do you know that's THE speaker for you? You must have heard it with a source and an amp right? So why not buy that source and amp if it sounded so good that was the speaker you want in the first place? And how do you know it's not the speaker? You are right, if you hear a speaker and love it then obviously the amp and source also aquited themselves well, and the various components worked well with each other. But the speakers also did the job. I think you can buy either amp/source or speakers and know they are all capable. You don't necessarily need to match them together, you just need to find another match that is just as good if not better. It's like those PMC's I love...I'm confident that they are a lot of speaker and will work with various amps and CD players. I don't necessarily need to buy an Audiolab and Denon mini-system, but I will need to buy electronics that match up well with those speakers. Let's say we did start with the speaker. Okay we found a good amp and source. Suddenly we heard another speaker we must have. We sell our speakers and put in the new ones. But they don't sound so good now with our amp and source. Now what? But you could say the same about the amp and source. You find an amp and source that you must have. You switch them up and all of a sudden your speakers don't sound so great anymore. Now what? As far as I'm concerned it all depends on your priorities. If the amp and source is what you want to keep then you'll have to find new speakers that work better with them. If it's the new speakers you want to keep then you'll have to find new electronics that match up well. |
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Silver Member Username: EzntnGreeneville, TN Post Number: 130 Registered: Apr-09 | Perhaps this is where the manufacturers have us by the short hairs. There's no chicken or egg here, but a steadily increasing variety on the menu, as our tastes become more refined. Art, I agree, knowing what one wants changes as we become more aware of whats available, how different components sync, and which way we want to our kits to progress and convince our SO that this is a valid investment. A knowledgeable salesperson who has the gift of identifying our desires, and assembling a system to aspire towards reaching that goal is a most valuable asset. But a good salesman will also want to tease you with just a bit more, always leaving you with the desire for something beyond what you have now. The greatest difference here is that listening to & enjoying music has no practical aspect to it. We are driven by emotion and senses from within, not logic. A bit like finding that ideal partner in life. |
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Gold Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 1110 Registered: Dec-07 | For me it's start with the source, simply because I feel there is more flexibility starting there than with speakers. I don't think I personally could effectively work backwards from the speakers and achieve the same compatibility and synergy among components. I hope I can though, because after using strictly a CDP I will soon be starting up a turntable and new phono stage into the existing mix--LOL. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2920 Registered: Nov-05 | If I were starting again, I think I'd start with the source also. It's difficult to find much variation in models and brands either here on the coast or even in Brisbane for that matter. But knowing what I do now (which isn't that much more than back whenever) I'd most likely go with the Saturn and take it touring to all the audio shops I could. If I went Naim, I think it'd be a whole lot easier - if the money was there. But, these days there are many more options - enough to drive one nuts. If one hasn't already been driven. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2932 Registered: Nov-05 | Interestingly, I think I may have discovered my problem with the Saturn. A while back I altered the vibration tweaks I had done and I believe the way I had these brass cones buried into the timber cutting board may have deadened the resolution a little (or worse). So I partially drilled 3 small coins, glued them over the holes I'd made in the cutting board to anchor the cone points and replaced the cones under the coins. I put the Saturn back on the 1/2 in ball bearings setting them in washers under the feet and, even though the weather is not condusive to listening at present, I believe the good Saturn is back and the evil one exorcised. It seems to be really singing beautifully. But I await a change in the weather for the real test. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14585 Registered: Dec-04 | The better tweak was to untweak? |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 424 Registered: Aug-04 | I always prefer these type of isolation pads over anything brass.... http://www.amazon.com/Mason-4C977-Pad-Anti-Vibration/dp/B001GBTCI8 They come in different widths Mapleshade also makes the Isoblocks....which I also use. Same thing, really.... http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/products.asp?dept=1 I always found everything much more smoother and sweeter with these type of isolation pads. brass for some reason doesn't sound right to me. They can used underneath the chasis to suspend the component on the four pads. Or with the single level ones from Amazon, you place them under the components feet. It gives the component some extra space under the chasis. Increased air-flow and better disipation of heat. YMMV |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2937 Registered: Nov-05 | Nuck, when I changed the set-up, I hadn't replaced the feet as I'd had them and had put it in the 'to do' basket and basically forgotten from then. The brass cones are under the timber slab to isolate it from the glass shelf. They have thin rubber discs attached to them. Under the feet of the Saturn are 1/2 inch steel bearings set into zinc washers. The rubber tips of the feet sit on the washers. The bearings sit on the timber slab and should dissipate any small vibration the Saturn may emit. Previously I had set the bearings in blu-tac into the hollow of the feet, but I feel this way is preferable. Works well enough for little cost. One thing about the Saturn - it only ever gets slightly warm. Never hot. I read some where the cooling fins are there so it fits aesthetically with Regas other components. And probably to help justify its original price lol! But they do give the player some solidity and heft. |
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