Archive through June 06, 2009

Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 12817 Registered: May-04	Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 20:24 GMT . What? Try it yourself and listen. Start with a CD or two and then work your way up to the player. The most dramatic improvements occur when you freeze a CD with marginal to middlin' sound quality. MW and I agree there are some better sounding discs which seem to benefit very little with freezing. But every disc I've done has had some benefit in SQ. The process is mostly dependent - as far as I can tell and from what I read from others - on not how long you freeze the disc, about five hours is sufficient. The "treatment" seems to be in how slowly you bring the item back to room temperature. Wrap the discs or the player in a few layers of heavy duty aluminium foil sealing the edges well. Place the package into a plastic bag and freeze. After the required time remove the item from the freezer and place in the coldest portion of the refrigerator for another 5-6 hours minimum. Remove the package and wrap it in a heavy towel or blanket and place this package in the coolest part of your home. With the foil wrap, the item should take more than 24 hours to actually reach room temperature (my Apollo took about 60). If you've frozen your player, allow it to sit for another 1/2 day to ensure all moisture has evaporated from the electronics before you plug the unit in. Freeze your power cables and interconnects also. That's all there is to it. I won't guarantee results since everyone listens for different qualities. However, everyone who has heard before and after versions of my CD's notices an improvement greater than that accomplished by the mats and at least as great as any surface treatment of a CD. For anyone using a top loading player such as an Apollo or Saturn I have another cheap improvement. Two actually. Head to the art supply shop and pick up a Chartpak broad tip marker, Violet #P-94. Use this to paint the edges of your discs rather than black or green ink. Then step over to their art paper aisle and buy a corresponding violet colored paper. The product I settled on (Canson #27 Plum) has a slight metalic sheen on one side and a mat finish on the other. You might want to try a tourquoise paper also as both colors have their own sound. Cut a round of each paper to fit in the tray of your player and cut around the path of the laser mechanism. Secure this to the bottom of the tray with a few small tags of tape. If you'd like, also cut a round to fit inside the clear/smoked portion of the Rega lid and tape it in place. Try the different colors and report back. MW and I agree on the sound of the colors and which we preferred when comparing the metaliziced side to the mat side of the violet paper and we both settled on a specific color as best for our specific system. Anyone with a tray loading player can try the paper in the tray but, as with Larry and the kitchen wrap, do this at your own risk. Once it enters your player you have no control over what happens next. http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina34.htm I would suggest everyone try the Belt foil. You can get a free sample from May Belt by following her instructions here; http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/ You aren't required to suspend any beliefs you might have and you certainly are not required to pass any judgenment prior to listening with the foil in place. Most of all I'm not interested in any comments about what you read on the Belt page and what I am suggesting. Just do this simple task, request a foil sample. They are free and will only cost you the time it takes to make the request. Whatever your opinion of Belt and those who use his products, just do this. I'm not interested in any BS about any of this. If it works for you, fine. If it doesn't, you've spent close to nothing and you can move on. http://theadvancedaudiophile.com/ .
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1957 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 23:56 GMT OK, Jan - I'm listening. The only "tweaks" that have ever worked for me at all are sanding the disc edges and damping the CD player cabinet. Now, I'm into a campaign to freeze all of my CD/DVD collection - BUT - those DVDs I've frozen show NO evidence of picture improvement! Anybody have the same reaction? Freezing the Oppo - hmm - would have to do that outside of the view of Mer, who is one of those rational people who does not suffer fools or weird experiments. (grin) IF - IF - I ever agree to freeze the player, Jan - your input please? Meanwhile - I'm trying to find some - any - rational explanation for the improvement in sound on MOST of my CDs - not all of them - and the SACDs show NO improvement whatsoever. Respectfully . . LarryR
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1958 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 00:07 GMT Jan: Just read the turquoise paper article. Hmm. The drawer is black, and theoretically would absorb ALL light that might come from the laser or disc surface reflection. But I'll try the paper - Mer has about every color imaginable. Will post results tomorrow. Right now I'm basking in the glow that is improved sound from discs I thought were "trash." Amazing. LR
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 12818 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 03:02 GMT . "Meanwhile - I'm trying to find some - any - rational explanation for the improvement in sound on MOST of my CDs ... " That's a problem most people encounter when they begin to experiment with alternative treatments. They want a rational, linear Newtonian explanation of how something works. The point of the Belt products and methods is that they do no operate on the CD or the system at all, they operate on the listener's perception. If you can't get past the idea there must be an "explanation" for everything that you hear, you'll have problems with many of the alternative treatments. For the moment you're better off just knowing it works and not worrying about how or why it works. Do you believe you know everything about how your CD player operates? How about your car? But you still just simply use them. Do the same with frozen CD's. .
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1959 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 11:36 GMT OK, Jan - I'm listening to you. I guess it's just like a person who has recently accepted or converted to a religion: he or she has faith in that doctrine, whether or not the "good feelings" can be explained by scientific means. Now - I watch a couple's Big House whilst they're away for the summer - and they have a large refrig-freezer. Me thinks I "may" try to freeze the Oppo - not sure what I'll tell Mer, who has said the whole idea of player-freezing is, well, "nutz." Sigh. So - do I just wrap it in plastic and freeze for a day, then remove to fridge, then to air temp? Inquiring minds need to know! (grin) Not really sure I'll do it. I'm a chicken where such things are concerned. FLASH! I just did what apparently is a no-no in the cryo world: I froze-thawed a couple of CD-Rs that I'd dubbed music onto - and when I tried to play them: HASH. Must be the freezing messed up the ink? Won't do THAT again! Double sigh. Well, Two hundred plus CDs to go - and now I'm starting to freeze my DVDs, though so far I cannot see any difference, even on our new and great Samsung 46" set. Triple sigh. Should work for sight as well as sound, shouldn't it? Hmm. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7311 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 12:22 GMT Don't should all over the process Larry...that's the point...suspend disbelief and go with the changes you see and hear and don't worry about the ones that you don't. If you don't see any changes in the DVD's perhaps you may want to stop freezing them and put your efforst where you get results.
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1367 Registered: May-06	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 12:35 GMT Not to complicate things any more than need be, but return on investment is highest when one cycles through the freezing process a second time. I think Larry noted this up earlier in the thread.
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1960 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 13:52 GMT BIREFRINGENCE! That's what I've been looking for! Eureka! OK, OK, I'm calm again. But I finally found some information - thanks to my atomic plant engineer friend - and began to translate into audio/video language. From Wikipedia: Many plastics are birefringent, because their molecules are 'frozen' in a stretched conformation when the plastic is moulded or extruded.[2] For example, cellophane is a cheap birefringent material, and Polaroid sheets are commonly used to examine for orientation in birefringent plastics like polystyrene and polycarbonate. - - - - - - Polycarbonate = CDs. My friend and my wife started jawing, and at the same time came up with "the freezing serves as a reverse order of the annealing process." Yeah, I guess so. Anyway - I know understand a bit of what MAY happen in the CD/DVD production process, and why it MAY produce what are essentially GHOST IMAGES off the CD. That may impact the main laser image, and might well be involved in what Jan and MW are dealing with: reducing light scatter. Uh-huh. Better and better. . .and the fact that some CDs/DVDs profit from freezing and others don't involves how carefully they were "pressed" at the factory? Maybe. . . Mer and Denny, the engineer, then came up with a way to see which color marking pen might best stop or reduce the light diffusion, or bounce-back. Take a recorded CD-R and carefully mark bands of various colored marking pens, leaving some "plain" bands in between. Then play the disc, advancing forward through the plain areas and through the green, violet, blue, or whatever colored bands you have. The pens will leave a transparent, if colored, surface that will or will not admit the red laser light. Does the music stop when you hit a green band? A violet one? Etc. I'll try it once I get some more markers. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 12820 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 16:12 GMT . I know you're curious, Larry, but just buy the violet marker (the color I stated not just any violet marker) and use it. Why waste time experimenting when you could be listening to better sounding music? Put your Newtonian brain in the closet for now, it will only get you in trouble here. And, no, this is not like a faith based religion. It is logical thinking but not "traditional" rationalization. Minimizing this to just "faith" is where you get start wandering into dangerous lands believing this is all in your head and can be discounted as "make believe". The effects are very real if only limited to those willing to listen to what sounds are in the room. That's the point the Belt's make on a regular basis. The sound you are hearing is already present before you freeze anything. This is not "cryogenic" freezing, this is just lowering the temperature of the item to below 32° Farenheit. P.W. Belt began his career as a "traditional" audio engineer who produced several outstanding products. His career took a turn when he listened to what was "in the room". Not "in the room" as in equipment but rather what musical information was being presented when a component not related to the system or room acoustic was introduced into the environment. This turnabout led him away from thinking all changes to the sound quality must be affected by a change to the equipment or the room acoustics. Therefore, he began thinking about the only component left which could be affected - the human listener. His beleif that the listener is the final component and that there are many unanswered questions - not to mention unasked questions - made him a target for those who must remain tied to in the box thinking. I have seen May Belt on many ocassions make the statement that allowing oneself to ask questions for which they have no "logical" answer would threaten the position of those who have established themself to be "better" (read "superior") at reasoning through what is happening when a change is perceived. Not having a ready answer would make those thinkers no better than all the rest of us and that is not the reason they became "thinkers". You see this with regularity when an idea such as cable "sound" is discussed and it is dismssed as impossible for cables to influence sound. The "argument from authority" is a common basis for dismissing such thoughts. Belt asks only that you do not constantly try to reason through what is happening by using a typical Western linear thought process. Accept that there are answers we still must discover and let the music lead you in the correct direction. You should not require an experiment to find which color blocks the laser light if blocking the light is not what is important to the result. If you are responding to something other than lower ambient light levels within the player drawer, knowing which color ink or paper results in those lowered levels will only lead you in the wrong direction by keeping you tied to a "traditional" thinking process. This is not to discount traditional thinking but only to say it doesn't hold all the answers its practioners would like you to believe and it often attempts to shut down discussion rahther than encouraging the thought process in an alternative direction. In the case of laser light it would seem most "logical" to believe either the subtractive color (some tint of green) or a totally absorptive color (black) would block scattered laser light - we've been down this road already. While both colors result in some changes to the perceived sound quality in my experience none go so far as violet which is not, by way of tradition thinking, a color which would block a red laser light. Further, if you try the violet pen over just a portion of the disc's edge, say four 1/2" wide marks located at the 12/3/6/9 O'Clock positions, you'll very likely find just as much musical improvement as covering the entire disc's edge. If that's the case, then absorbing scattered light isn't the cause and effect answer you should be considering. That would lead you to another question and, if you are confined to the Newtonian conscipts, you would be out of answers. Continuing with the same thought process will then leave you to consider only two options, 1) there is no difference and you are under the influence of a placebo effect or 2) there simply is no difference and you are wrong when you believe what you hear. The former leads you to a "faith based" answer that seeks to end the debate while then latter just ends the debate - period! Both are based in the "I can't understand it therefore it cannot exist" philosophy which keeps many people safe at night and during most of the day. I'm not preaching to get everyone to believe in UFO's, listen to Art Bell or try alternative treatments to your music. No one should believe anything will alter your preception of music unless and until they try the treatments. Many are free and are worth trying just to convince yourself of the results. But, I can promise you that trying to establish "rational" (by traditional means) explanations for what affects your perception of music will only lead you to a frustrating experience. I suggest you read the "Advanced Audiophile" site for a far better explanation than I can give here. And while I know I cannot stop you from trying to discover a traditional answer to why your perception of the music changes, I can only tell you that you are heading in the wrong direction of you stick with stray laser light as the answer to your new found improvement in sound quality. The changes wrought by the various colored papers in the disc tray cannot - as far as I can predict - be explained away by stray laser light. Order the free sample of Belt's foil and see what I mean. (One of my favorite alternative treatments is the five pin-hole paper device; http://theadvancedaudiophile.com/the-5-pinhole-paper-device/index.html I did find, however, that since I am not a cat person a picture of a dog better suited my tastes. But really any four legged animal with tail will suffice.) Just listen to the music, Larry. .
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1961 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 16:43 GMT Jan: First, sir, I must say that I have profited from your knowledge and guidance over the years. This Forum has taught me so many things - and I am both humbled by the collective knowledge here, and my oft-expressed inability to achieve the goals that others have set for me. That aside, I am sorry, but after reading ALL of your postings of recent days, I must admit to at least a modest amount of skepticism re the good Dr. Belt and his theories. Am I name-calling? Certainly not. But after 35-plus years as a reporter, my reticence to accept at face value what others may toss my way is well-known. Thanks to people (yourself included, Jan) much more informed than I am - I continue to learn. But let me try to put this into my perspective. I've tried, as you know, many "tweaks." Some worked for you, and not for me. Some worked for both of us, while others on the Forum said we were collectively "nuts." Sigh. No, sir, double-sigh. Perhaps I AM heading in the wrong direction, Jan. If so, however, I shall admit to it if I reach a dead-end. Fair? Right now I read about birefringence, and want to know more. My queries to various "experts" have so far been dead-ends. So I glean from the Internet, and my few learned friends away from this Forum. One: In 2000, many recording companies, understanding that their polycarbonate had high birefringence, went to a new chemical composition they called "the new Lexan." They claimed much lower birefringence - but how many actually put it into production, and did it remain there, cost being what it is? I can't seem to find out. Then along came another re-formulation that found its way into the CD-R market - Polylefins instead of Polycarbonate. Lower - well, you know. But is it still being used? Heck, I'm trying to find out. . . There are two schools of thought re CD-treating: those who say cryo is the only solution, and the rest of us who believe that the good old freezer is good enough - as it would appear to be in at least my case. From the cryo-people, who really want to make a big buck, we get this: - - - - - Improving CDs & DVDs Sound Quality by Reducing Birefringence By Charles Beresford C I, Scottsdale, Arizona In the midst of the digital age, finding ways to achieve the truest possible playback of music and video stored as digital information (audio/video recordings) is never ending. Some audiophiles spend tens of thousands of dollars to gain minute percentage improvements in sound quality. They do this by trying to eliminate as many negatives as possible, which are hampering the original recording. The best components, interconnects, and speakers won?t remove imperfections that are originating from the music source; the CD or DVD. The main objective is to make the disc as stress free and crystal-clear as possible (isotropic). This will allow the laser to read the digital information as it was originally intended. The polycarbonate, plastic discs, which hold recorded digital information as pits and lands within the plastic have inherent flaws. It is a natural occurrence in the manufacturing process, that injection molded products (including CDs and DVDs) have built-in stresses due to shrinkage of the molten plastic after it cools in the mold. Why Stresses In Optical Media Cause Distortions The reason stresses affect playback quality is due to a phenomenon called birefringence. Birefringence is the refraction of light in two slightly different directions to form two rays (double refraction). Most polymers are optically anisotropic because of the nature of the long macromolecular chains. Anisotropic media shows variation on the direction of action. Polymers are subject to flow during injection molding; therefore, the end product is often highly birefringent due to chain orientation and residual stress. When the single laser tries to read the digital information through the plastic, it is refracted in two directions. This stress-induced birefringence scatters the laser causing poor reading of the digital information, thereby affecting playback quality. These distortions will cause the laser to give you less than the true digital information, which was placed on the disc. This manufacturing induced birefringence causes undesirable effects in many optical applications including CDs and DVDs. The Manufacturing Process Once the masters have been completed, the replication process begins. The first stage of the replication process is injection molding. Molten resin is injected against the stamping dies under high pressure. This forms the basic disc structure and embosses the pits and lands on the clear surface. A coat of aluminum or other reflective material is then applied to impart a reflective surface on the disc. An ultraviolet light-curable protective coating is applied to protect the layer surfaces from physical damage and oxidation. With DVDs two disc halves are fed into a machine where a U.V. bonding agent bonds the two disc halves together. These discs, due to this manufacturing process are now full of stress. Purity Of Music/Video With Stress Free Discs What can be done to relieve these stresses that cause birefringence, which distorts the quality of the original information stored on a disc? Through advances from cryogenics, it has been discovered, researched, and proven that when CDs and DVDs are deep cryogenically treated, the sound quality improves. This is due to the reduction or elimination of stress induced birefringence. When these stress free discs are played, the original intended quality of sound emerges. A very big negative is eliminated, by reducing distortions from the point of origin and improving the quality of the disc without altering the music/video. Hear parts of the music you never knew were there. Hear more than you knew was there and see more vividly. - - - - - - - - My engineer-friend, who seems to understand the "B" (shortened because I'm tired of writing it out) issue better than I do, says it is akin to rainbows - and those confounding "double bows" that you in the West are lucky enough to see rather often. One main bow, another "ghost" one. Dr. C - my friend - is convinced that such ghost rays can and do often degrade CD sound by confounding the laser pickup. Still just 1's and 0's - but in an echo. Thus, the voltage to the DAC will vary, the sound will get muddied, and on it goes. At least that's his take. Me? I'm going on part faith, part scientific thought. I"ll give you, Dr. Belt and others a great big benefit of doubt for your beliefs, but please have the courtesy to allow me to either figure this out scientifically - or, as you may predict - fall on my big, fat face. OK? This is VERY EXCITING to me - and I may even try to expand it into a newspaper article. We'll see. Meanwhile, Jan - thanks for your information, and your patience with me. Now - to the freezer! I've got a batch of DVDs coming out that are due for the fridge, then the playing room by tonight. Hope springs. . . Respectfully, as always. . .LarryR
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 12821 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 17:37 GMT . Larry - I have given my advice on this topic. Let me just say that all of your efforts to understand "B" in CD production do not account one iota for the improvements gained by freezing the player or the interconnects or the pre amp. But those gains are real and can be experienced by trying that experiment. Place that concept into your thought process before you spend a lot of time on your article. I've warned you not to stick the screwdriver into a live socket. If you persist, ... .
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1962 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 18:33 GMT Jan: Message received, and accepted graciously. Whilst I was writing my post, my friend Denny called asking about my experiment, and I mentioned your comments on Belt, etc. He immediately brightened, and said "Hey, Joyce is the person you oughta talk to - she's into all that stuff!" So he called Joyce (a neighbor of his) and she called me, and then both of them came over to cut violet paper, and to stick some of Joyce's li'l tiny rainbow foil on some of my discs. Seems Joyce is a Belt-follower, and believer.Sigh. The paper was a bust - first, because it came off and got stuck in the player, then because it just didn't make any sound difference. End of that. . . But Joyce wasn't finished with me. We picked a CD I know like the back of my hand - Sketches of Spain. OK, I have two copies. We put a tiny strip of her foil on one disc - left the other alone, and went back and forth and back and forth, etc. Well, she claimed she could hear a "wider stage." Denny and I claimed we were just tired of trying to hear anything different at all, and we opened some Scotch. End of that, as well. I'm sure it works for many people, however. . . .the Scotch was great! I've decided not to freeze the player - if it somehow gets messed us, well, Mer will mess with sensitive parts of my body.. . .no freezing. But I'll compromise, Jan. I will put interconnects and power cord in the freezer. We'll hope. . . Hey! That hurts when you put the screwdriver in the socket! Whew! Respectfully. . .LarryR and his new supply of snipped, violet paper.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 10548 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 22:34 GMT And you all scoffed when I sent out bittle bits of Belt's rainbow foil! Whacked out Englishman, indeed...
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 12824 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 01:09 GMT . I don't remember, Nuck, did you try them?
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1368 Registered: May-06	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 02:55 GMT I didn't scoff Nuck. But then again you never sent any foil to me either. Now about the cream...
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1963 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 03:02 GMT Sleeping alone tonight. Mer came home from work, and I tried to explain the rose-colored paper on the floor, and how Joyce, Denny and I had done our "experiments." Well, Mer got very, very angry - saying she'd had enough of "this insanity," and warning me not to even think of freezing her beloved Oppo. The battle went from bad to worse, and she called Denny, asking who the H Joyce is. turns out she's a nut case who divorced very well, and now spends her free time as a Tarot Card Reader. Oh, boy. . . So much for credibility. It will all blow over, but this ends any further dippings into Belt-land and his outrageous meanderings. Finally got the paper out of the Oppo with forceps, and am feeling very stupid. The Oppo is safe from the freezer, but I might as well be there at the moment. Sigh. Jan - I let Mer read your last couple of long postings, and I'll preserve what good relations we have on the Forum by refraining from passing along her comments. GRIN Now I'm going to take some more DVDs out of the freezer, and hope for the best - all 'round. Double sigh. Respectfully. . .LarryR Birefringence, indeed!
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1369 Registered: May-06	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 03:49 GMT Rose colored paper? No wonder it did not work and everything went south. It was supposed to be violet not rose. I guess we'll have to sneak a marker or two into you LR, maybe inside an old tuner, what do you think? Sorry you're night ended on a downer my friend but as you said, "It will blow over."
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1964 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 04:08 GMT Michael: Sorry, I did a bit of shorthand with the paper - it was from Mer' stock - #27 plum paper, as instructed. Sigh. No markers - no tuners - no wires - no foil - no nuthin' PLEASE Now I'm headin' to my couch. Double sigh. Respectfully. . .LarryR PS - my Insanity Mats don't really work, either. . .GRIN
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 12825 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 04:35 GMT . Larry - We're still in the last phase of the full moon and things get hairy at this point, so Mer's reaction is almost to be expected. Though I suspect there's more to this than just colored paper on the floor. If the subject should come up again, you may (or may not) want to tell her I am surprised she is not attuned to the Belt devices. As an artist she must be aware of the influence color will have on our perception. Belt explores that relationship of color to perception. With her visual style I'm sure she sees a shape and notices a pattern. That is her perception of the object in space. It is not that different than the perception of music as affected by the Belt devices. Some of us sense things not like others do. You might want to mention these things to her. Or you might just want to wait and see when she'll let you sleep in your own bed. Good luck. .
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 10550 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 11:09 GMT I sent a bit to you, JV and Art. I had asked for a sample from the Belt's.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7322 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 13:32 GMT Oh yeah...
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1965 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 13:54 GMT Nuck: Soooo - did the foil do anything for you? Jan: I appreciate that you and I are on two completely different planes of consciousness. I can deal with that. Mer's brother is on a different plane, as well. All he can discuss is micrometers and other machine tolerances, or sometimes the creation of esoteric machinery to mill metals or something like that. Otherwise, he's basically dysfunctional - cannot figure out how to set his air conditioner or use his stove. Sigh. As to Mer's embracing the Belt theories? Well, she's read his web site info, and various articles. I'm afraid, though, that her comments on such things as violet pens, blue paper under furniture, pulled-back curtains, foil on CDs can be boiled down to one rather simple statement. And I quote: "He's out of his f......ing mind!" Close quotes. Oh, she's very much into fractals, and string theory, and quantum mechanics and, yes, color and how it affects a person's mood, etc. But all of this comes around to scientific investigation - not some sort of voodoo plucked out of the ether. The Belt stuff DOES work. Because his believers say all the stuff works. Nothing more than that. If I put peanut butter on the top of a CD (hey, gotta try that!) and then "believe" that the sound is smoother and warmer, well, I can only say that - to me - it IS. I believe in God. Can't prove it, but I believe. I also believe that Mer loves me. Can't prove that, either. I believe in the Golden Rule as well, so I try not to shout or rant at people with whom I have a rational disagreement. On stereo sound - I understand that I lack much technical knowledge. Given. Y'all can run circles around me on that. Given. But I simply cannot embrace theories that have NO basis in fact - only in perception, which is so subjective as to make it laughable. Therefore - I hark back to 1952 Los Alamos experiments in freezing copper wire, and the scientists' first indication that their testing showed that the cryo-treated wire would either pass an electric current a little more easily - or destroy its molecular structure and crack. Hmmm. . . And now I read engineering reports on both cryogenic and "home freezer" treating of CDs/DVDs - and how there was at one time a movement to get ALL CDs treated, because it has been scientifically observed that sound quality improves in "most" cases. But the darned discs refuse to give up their secrets - and we can only "think" that the polycarbonate's molecular structure is "relaxed" in the freezing. Annealing it is not - though some scientists post of a "reverse annealing" that is only theoretical. Sorry, Jan - I know that you hold tightly to many beliefs, but I shall remain true to - what did you call it? - oh, yes, Newtonian thought process. Let me HEAR that it works, and I'll think about believing. Tell me that it works, and I'll question it until I have some standards of my own. Mer has just come in to remind me (yes, all is forgiven, and things are back to homemade blueberry muffin normal this ayem) that I had a large, black power cord in the freezer overnight. She said she had to take it out to make way for ice cream - which, of course, takes precedence! I shall now go and plug in the thang and see if freezing it makes the electrons run more smoothly, or whatever. And I warn everybody on this Forum: I EXPECT TO HEAR A DIFFERENCE! OK? I will not, shall not get into a word-fight over any of this, and I do not and will not resort to name-calling. It's my Golden Rule. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1966 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 14:01 GMT Art: Oh yeah what? You got it? It worked? It didn't work? Inquiring minds need to know, sir! (grin)
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7323 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 14:56 GMT I got it, forgot about it and lost it...just as well as I would not have tried it.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 12827 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 15:52 GMT . I'm not going to attempt to dissaude you from your findings, Larry. I'll just tell you that believing this is "voodoo" and make believe is not giving full realization to the evidence. Alternative treatment adherents are not limited to the kook fringe of the audiophile circle any more than the doctors who not that long ago rethought applying leeches to a wound are the kook fringe. The issue is how do you go about explaining what you perceive and when do you stop thinking and begin to rely on a simple faith in what you've been told to believe. Most of us stop short when the explanation leads us into unfamiliar, uncomfortable territory. The Belt's are fully aware of how their treatments sound to the average reader. They were not nutcases who just jumped off the cliff one day. PWB was a respected engineer who also had to reach and go beyond a point where what he had learned in a traditional education controlled by quite conservative educators and writers was not explaining what he and others around him heard. Holding tightly to their many "beliefs" did not provide answers. I would be surprised if you told me you haven't come across several instances where what is observed (even in clinical trials and experiments controlled by "traditional" thinkers) cannot be explained with present day knowledge. Those who look beyond the conservative viewpoint are most often ridiculed and labelled "nuts" if they stray too far from the mainstream of conservative opinion. There is, IMO, a certain arrogance that is involved in the "scientific faith" which has been instilled in us in the last 150 years when it contradicts what kept us alive for the last several thousand years. The task is to sort out what is likely the truth and what is rubbish. If asking too many questions makes you uncomfortable, if being on the outside of traditional thinking (that which we have been taught is traditional at least when it is mostly just recent theory largely confined to the white man's world) stops you from asking more questions, if being called a voodoo practitioner makes you back away from what you observe as reality, then you will remain tied to the narrowness of your beliefs and shun anyone who disagrees. Unfortunately, that's what Newtonian thinking has given us. It is all too often now aimed at shutting down discussion and not encouraging further study. It's not at all uncommon for anyone experimenting with alternative treatments in any field to want to apply "logical" thinking to what they observe, it makes us feel comfortable to think we can control our world by explaining our world in accepted ways. The danger is when we no longer believe there is something we cannot explain. You probably are aware of the fact the Audio Engineering Society largely dismisses the claims of cable "sound". This despite more than thirty years of subjective evidence to the contrary. I know your experience with cables didn't show much difference with various designs. That's fine, no one is telling you your perception is wrong. However, in the thirty years since the topic surfaced the AES has not published a single article on cable sound other than to dissaude readers from thinking it could happen. This accomplished by applying the "rules" and "laws" which we have found most often to be a comfortable explanation of how things work. On either side of a discussion there are usually at last two sides who have vested, monied interests in seeing their point of view held as tightly as possible. The rest of us just go along because it's easier to do. I'm no new ager and I don't dance nekked in the moonlight but I also know that some remedies and actions are as effective and do less harm than the "traditional" medicines developed over the last century. When I have a broken arm I won't take echinacea and golden seal. A time and place for everything. When I hear the change in sound quality effected by cables or foils, I have to question what is known and what is unknown. If someone else cannot hear these same effects, then I know they listen in a different manner to how I hear. Their evidence does not disprove my own any more than my evidence should by itself convince them of what I hear. Over the years, however, I've found it far easier to not hear something than it is to notice what is present. We all listen in our own way. "Tradition" says buy new equipment if you wish to improve your sound. These are the monied interests alternative devices are up against. You won't buy much new equipment if you can improve your enjoyment of music by manipulating the environment in which you listen. And so, despite evidence to the contrary, those who experiment outside of conventional, conservative methods are shut down and pushed into the closet where the nuts are stored. And when I say evidence to the contrary I'm not talking about the lone listener who places a piece of foil on a CD. There are white papers and lab tests performed on items such as the "Shakti Stone", Belt has performed multiple tests where the effectiveness of his devices has been proven in blind situations and highly regarded "professional" listeners have employed items not typically found in your average C.E.S. demo room. Perception is our personal venue and, if an item affects a change with consistency or whether it does not, then that's all that matters. I am not advocating for or against any product or treatment. But I am bothered by the idea that anyone can claim to know my perception and proceed to label it "voodoo" induced. IMO, that is the result of an education system designed to keep us in line and believing only what we need to know. But that's another topic that will also get me labeled a nutcase. Good luck, Larry. It's good to know you've progressed so quickly to muffins in the morning. .
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1967 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 18:15 GMT Jan: As always, thank you for a reasoned response. I think we agree to disagree, but I'm glad that we are keeping within the bounds of good taste in doing so. My "voodoo" comments were aimed at Mr. Belt and his claims - not at you or your perception directly. It is the religion, not the followers, that bothers me. Well, the power cord came out of the freezer - you DID tell me to freeze both it and interconnects, right? After it had sat around for a half-dozen hours, I hooked up the Oppo - and the power cord did just what I expected it to: directed electricity into the player. That was it. Not bad, not different, not great. Just electricity. The Oppo sounds fine, as always, so I'm happy about that. Not sure how the power cord feels after being frozen overnight. . .(grin) Six more DVDs from freezer to fridge to room temp to player. Because I don't have duplicates of the DVDs I cannot even begin to make a comparison - but all of the movies/operas I've sampled so far sound clear and warm, and look as good as upped DVDs can look at 1080P on a 46-inch set. I'm convinced that they may, indeed look/sound better - so I'll keep on until they've all been frozen. I needed to re-clean them all, anyway, so this is a good thing. I shall continue to research birefringence, because it is a subject that fascinates me. Now, if only I could measure it and its meanings. Sigh. Well, I guess I've about gone through my thoughts for now. Mer and I have discussed tweaks and their impact (or not) on our lives - and we both wound up laughing both at the tweaks and at ourselves. The muffins were grand, BTW. Respectfully. . .LarryR
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1968 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 19:09 GMT So why do SACDs sound more like vinyl, and benefit little from freezing? This may help. . . - - - - - - - The new hybrid Super Audio CD (SACD) format from Sony/Philips not only promises to bring back the "warm" sound of vinyl records, it also represents the breakthrough of cyclo-olefin copolymer (COC) into the CD market. SACDs use new recording technology that increases the resolution of digital music by more closely following the original analog waveform. Unlike the DVDs on which movies are recorded, a hybrid SACD (which includes a conventional CD layer to play on standard equipment) is not symmetrical in the placement of the metal and plastic layers. As a result, it is more vulnerable to warpage caused by moisture absorption, which would render the CD portion unusable, explains Robert Freedman, senior v.p. for technical operations at Crest National. Polycarbonate reportedly does not have the moisture resistance needed to keep the disc flat, but COCs do. Sony's SACD project director David Kawakami says COCs offer low birefringence. COC also helps SACDs function by absorbing less laser light. To use PC rather than convert to COC would require sputtering an additional barrier layer of silicon oxide onto the exposed face of the SACD to prevent moisture absorption and maintain flatness. That extra step is very expensive and very slow, says Freedman. Sonopress reportedly started out using this method but then converted to COC. Sony Japan is also using COC. - - - - And that's one reason my SACDs don't sound any better after freezing. I think. . .(grin) So many answers, so little time. Respectfully. . .LarryR
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 12829 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 19:16 GMT . "It is the religion, not the followers, that bothers me." It is the assumption of voodoo religiosity and all the negative connotations that come with those words that bothers me. .
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1969 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 19:36 GMT OK, Jan - I apologize and take back what I said. Meanwhile - more info on why the new Blu-ray discs surely look and sound more accurate than CDs/DVDs. this from the Blu-ray Association. - - - - - - Each Blu-ray disc is about the same thickness (1.2 millimeters) as a DVD. But the two types of discs store data differently. In a DVD, the data is sandwiched between two polycarbonate layers, each 0.6-mm thick. Having a polycarbonate layer on top of the data can cause a problem called birefringence, in which the substrate layer refracts the laser light into two separate beams. If the beam is split too widely, the disc cannot be read. Also, if the DVD surface is not exactly flat, and is therefore not exactly perpendicular to the beam, it can lead to a problem known as disc tilt, in which the laser beam is distorted. All of these issues lead to a very involved manufacturing process. How Blu-ray Reads Data The Blu-ray disc overcomes DVD-reading issues by placing the data on top of a 1.1-mm-thick polycarbonate layer. Having the data on top prevents birefringence and therefore prevents readability problems. And, with the recording layer sitting closer to the objective lens of the reading mechanism, the problem of disc tilt is virtually eliminated. Because the data is closer to the surface, a hard coating is placed on the outside of the disc to protect it from scratches and fingerprints. Source: Blu-ray Disc Association - - - - - Think of Blu-ray discs as CDs backwards - with the pits/planes under a thin coating, backed by the polycarbonate, rather than the current setup. Hmm. . .sounds good to me already. Respectfully. . .LarryR
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1971 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 19:09 GMT Just a quick check-in to report that my disc-freezing experiment is a continuing success. Four movies on DVD - in each case the picture is cleaner, and the sound fuller, especially in mid-range warmth and naturalness. Birefringence would, it appears, be a major contributor to the "CD Sound" problem. The only discs not showing rather marked improvement are the SACDs - and I read that they're not made out of polycarbonate - rather, COC, which has, according to trade articles, much less birefringence. Respectfully. . .LarryR
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1973 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 17:43 GMT It's tough when you find out your friend has been lying to you. Yep. I'm talking about my late friend Verne, and his refusal to share his "secret" formula for cleaning CDs. Now that he's gone and his son Mark is taking over, I find out that there was never a "secret formula." Mark and I have been e-mailing, and he said his dad got a lot of fun out of "tweaking the tweakers," including me, it would seem. Mark and I got to chatting about disc freezing and cleaning, and he finally came clean himself. Quote: "My dad and his gang long ago tested a bunch of cleaners, and finally found a solution that was sold in bulk to scientists. They used it to clean telescopes and microscopes in labs where very clean lenses were not just nice, but necessary. It didn't have either ammonia or alcohol. I don't know the name of the original stuff, but I do know that dad said it was about the same as any good lens cleaner designed for coated lenses." Well now! I asked him if the stuff I get at Sam's Club is the same, and he said: "probably - if it says safe for coatings, and doesn't have alcohol or ammonia." So - after years of hide-n-seek over CD cleaning solutions, I guess I got "Verne's formula" anyway! I'm re-cleaning all my discs - and find that the solution does, indeed, leave the surface ultra-clean and clear. More "rainbows," if you will. What does this mean? Depends. . .on what you believe, and what you see and hear. If you want to try one of these solutions - Sam's Club or a product called (I think) EyeMagination. Check the labels to be sure. Half-way through my collection - freezing and cleaning. All sounds are better (forgive the generality, Jan) Smoother, warmer in mid and lower range, and less "glare" in upper freqs. Sigh. That's about it. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1974 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 18:48 GMT Possible brands of lens cleaners: eyeMagine (not eyeMagination, as I thought) OptiMist ClearVu Sam's Club Member's Mark lens cleaner. All "seem" good. LR
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 10622 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 21:57 GMT Lar, I will take all of your experiences to heart.... You used to interview liers, right? Smile bud, take it all with a grain of salt, and a muffin!
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1977 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2008 - 03:31 GMT Nuck: Good response from you, sir. Yeah, I used to interview lots of dem dare liars - but it's quite another thing to have a friend pull the old wool over the eyes. At first I was angry, then I just laughed about it all - will never understand, though. Anyway - my discs have never sounded this good, and I'm a much happier camper. All muffins welcome..(GRIN) Respectfully. . .LarryR
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 10681 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 21:08 GMT Lar, how have you weathered the storms down that way? Are you dry?
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1984 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 03:21 GMT Nuck, et al - so far so dry. Only lost a large bush in Fay, but we're very concerned about Hanna. And if New orleans gets hit by Gustav? SIGH. Awful thought.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13027 Registered: May-04	Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 16:08 GMT . http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/106085/loudest-speaker-on-earth-can-melt-your-f ace-off/
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4812 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 00:02 GMT Thank you, Jan. 30 kW per channel should achieve realistic listening levels. For a split second. Then deafness probably sets in. If not death. Now, I know I've posted this quote before.... Chapter 17. The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy notes that Disaster Area, a plutonium rock band from the Gagrakacka Mind Zones, are generally held to be not only the loudest rock band in the Galaxy, but in fact the loudest noise of any kind at all. Regular concert-goers judge that the best sound balance is usually to be heard from within large concrete bunkers some thirty-seven miles from the stage, whilst the musicians themselves play their instruments by remote control from within a heavily insulated spaceship which stays in orbit around the planet - or more frequently around a completely different planet. Their songs are on the whole very simple and mostly follow the familiar theme of boy-being meets girl-being beneath a silvery moon, which then explodes for no adequately explored reason. Many worlds have now banned their act altogether, sometimes for artistic reasons, but most commonly because the band's public address system contravenes local strategic arms limitation treaties.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 10937 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2008 - 00:08 GMT Gawd, do I miss 'The Who'.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 10986 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 12:44 GMT http://money.canoe.ca/News/Other/2008/10/15/7094196-ap.html#top
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13078 Registered: May-04	Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 15:42 GMT . Ciao! Lambocop Stalks Italian Speeders By Jerry Garrett A Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4, in Italian state police trim. Italian motorists have a hard-earned and, in my experience, a much-deserved reputation for recklessness, general an@rchy and driving well in excess of posted speed limits on the country's highways, byways and autostradas. It seems only fair that the Italian version of the highway patrol has been armed by Lamborghini with the world's fastest police car. The automaker has just presented the latest version of its Gallardo LP560-4 sports car, all tricked out in law enforcement trim, to the Italian state police. In addition to catching speeders, the 2009 Gallardo has been outfitted with a video surveillance camera, gun racks, GPS, organ transplant cooler (in the luggage compartment) and defibrillator. This version of the Gallardo produces 560 horsepower and has a top speed of 203 miles an hour. It actually replaces an older, slower (just 180 m.p.h. or so) Gallardo that had seen some 87,000 miles of service around Rome since 2004. No doubt all of those miles were used on official police business, right? Well, it seems the car did somehow manage to show up in New York City in 2005 for the Columbus Day parade. A third blue-light Gallardo has been patrolling in the Bologna region of north central Italy the past three years. It only has 62,000 miles on its odometer. Informant's tip: Watch out for the new Gallardo patrolling the A3 Autostrada between Salerno and Reggio Calabria in southern Italy. } .
JOHN S Gold Member Username: John_s Columbus, Ohio US Post Number: 2358 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 15:57 GMT
JOHN S Gold Member Username: John_s Columbus, Ohio US Post Number: 2381 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 17:22 GMT Happy Saint Cecilia's Day to you all.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11244 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 01:02 GMT Have fun fellows! http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13176 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 03:22 GMT . Stopped getting their catalog when they stopped selling tubes.
Neil Waterman Silver Member Username: Jazzman71 Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 437 Registered: Dec-07	Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 05:24 GMT If the Italians only had $250,000 left in the entire country, they would buy a sports car and starve. The French on the other hand would buy Peugeot police cars and a lot of wine. Gawd love 'em.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13181 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 12:50 GMT . If the Italians only had $250,000 left in the entire country, they'd throw a party to feed everyone, drink great wine for $2 a bottle and talk about the sports car they're going to buy. .
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11245 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 02:15 GMT And wave their hands around a lot.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13193 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 04:41 GMT . Tie an Italian's hands down to their side and you've rendered them mute.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11246 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 10:37 GMT hehehe
Neil Waterman Silver Member Username: Jazzman71 Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 443 Registered: Dec-07	Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 06:03 GMT OK, they'd put on a $1,200 suit and rent a sports car for $1,500 and throw a party, feed everyone and drink wine and brag about the sports car. Point well taken.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4816 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 16:44 GMT I bought v. cheap (£30) pair of active speakers;- http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=27962 ...and installed them as rear speakers fed directly from the line-level output of the NAD T-534 DVD-V and DVD-A player. Very nice effect for movies. Greater sense of space and so on. It is a bit of a pain having to balance the volumes of the front and rear speakers, but it works. These little active speakers are badged "Surf Sound" and are simple and quite well-built two-way bass reflex units with some sort of power amp in one and a phono output from it to the other. The sound is somewhat colored but they work from a 40Hz - 20 kHz and belt out surprising volumes without distortion. They would work as main speakers for someone on a micro-budget. I'd also recommend them as computer speakers unreservedly. Happy winter solstice to all.
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1678 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 18:12 GMT Thanks for that info John. I have emailed Maplin to see what it would cost to ship a pair of Cherry finished speakers to Texas. They would be a major upgrade for my PC speakers. The down side is my existing PC speakers are diminutive and deemed an evil necessity by Marsh, she may see these as objectionably unsightly in our Library perhaps.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11293 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 18:30 GMT John, good bit of info there. Can I be sure not to bother you to clarify the 40Hz spec?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4818 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 21:56 GMT Michael; I have the Cherry finish and they look OK too. My guess is they are also available in US, maybe with a different badge. Maplin is a sort of UK version of Radio Shack. Nuck; I've run the frequency checks on my Denon PCM stereo test CD and the spot frequency for 50 Hz is certainly nice and audible. More than that and I'd have to get an SPL meter. You can also hear the amplitude change several times, like changing gear, during the logarithmic frequency swoop, which translates as coloration but at that price I am not disappointed and they make very acceptable small speakers. 2 x 40 W per channel is loud enough and with good frequency range and including the amp all-in £30 per pair....
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1681 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 22:05 GMT Thanks John, I will look into that further here in the states.
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4819 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 22:29 GMT SOrry I have no further details at hand, Michael. Don't know where they are sourced. They look quality especially with grills off. I should have said "...and Canada" Nuck! All the best.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11298 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 22:31 GMT not bashing the things, John, just backchecking that I didn't miss a bargain isobaric bookshelf is all, LOL! The look fine in the pic, a thin stand perhaps?
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4820 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 22:50 GMT It's OK, Nuck. I was trying to get back to the experience, and topic, of surround sound. It can add a bit to movies, and to some music, for little extra cost. I started this thread arguing with Jan and others that surround was the best thing since sliced bread. I've learned some things since then, and mostly learned them here on ecoustics. The little speakers are just my attempt to retrace.
M.R. Gold Member Username: My_rantz Australia Post Number: 2025 Registered: Nov-05	Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 02:42 GMT I knew you'd miss surround sound eventually John [grin]. I'm also looking for decent powered speakers for my computer, shame I can't find a pair of those Maplins here. Anyway, in case I don't get back here by the time Santa should be arriving I wish all of you usual suspects all the best for the season and hope that 2009 is kind to you all. Explanation: Santa won't be arriving at all this year as the photo below (courtesy of our friends Mer and Larry) tells the story:
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11316 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 05:00 GMT I would bang her in a heartbeat. Vote for her?...not so much Cheers!
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1985 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 17:46 GMT All Dawgs: Mer and I just want to wish all of you a Happy Holiday Season - and a better New Year. Not much news from us'ns - we're still loving our Samsung 46-inch TV, and look forward to getting a Blu-ray player - but not until the highly-anticipated Oppo unit comes out sometime in early summer, I'm told. John A - heck, you could-al just gone out and bought a pair of el-cheapo 2-way speakers and then do what I did and clip off the el-cheapo tweeter! The gutted versions sound Boffo as surround speakers! (no - just teasing here - not really recommending the "surgery!") HAPPY HOLIDAYS ALL! Respectfully. . .Lar & Mer in Swampville
Sem Silver Member Username: Sem NY/CA USA Post Number: 825 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 22:11 GMT Merry Christmas and a Happy New Yar there to you and Mer, Lar!!
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11362 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 12:14 GMT Not sure how I missed this Lar, but the best to you both in the coming year.
SimplyMcIntosh Silver Member Username: Simplymcintosh Post Number: 370 Registered: Jan-05	Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 03:25 GMT Hello Dawgs!
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13348 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 15:26 GMT . I recognize the smiley face but ... OH, NO!!! IT'S "THE NUN"!!!!!! RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!!! OH, THIS IS TERRIBLE!!! TERRIBLE!!!!!!!! "THE NUN" IS BACK, SHE'S BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, wait, ... ... it's just SM. THAT'S A RELIEF! Where ya' been, girl? How's things? How's Mr. Dual? .
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11612 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 17:58 GMT Hello again SM. I hope the day finds you well.
M.R. Gold Member Username: My_rantz Australia Post Number: 2037 Registered: Nov-05	Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 21:25 GMT " How's Mr. Dual? " In the shower singing 'Two Faces Have I' Hi Simply, hope all is well in your world lately.
SimplyMcIntosh Silver Member Username: Simplymcintosh Post Number: 371 Registered: Jan-05	Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 22:09 GMT Don't worry, Jan, Nun got whacked! a long time ago. Mr. Dual wants a divorce. He is tired of sleeping in the guest room and never getting turned on. He only gets satisfaction in knowing that momma's Squeezebox has been demoted to kitchen duty, replaced by a younger, sleeker dude, hailing from Apogee, known as Duet. Mac has been secure in his position in the house to the point of arrogance. He better watch out...older, more expensive assets are being laid off and replaced by Sophia Baby's every day, it seems. Things have been interesting for me. My audio interest ebbed a little last year but it's going through a resurgence at the moment so I thought I'd pop in here and say hello to everyone. I hope all are doing well! As Larry knows, my focus the past year or so has been towards philosophy, religion and, uh, a few esoteric things. Through a discussion of these topics with him, I indirectly found out about the freezing CD's experiment and discussions here on Old Dogs. Skimmed the thread last night and got the rest of the story. lol. I have to laugh a little...all these tweaks to make CD's sound better. Eh. Just rip'em in lossless format to a computer and be done with it. I'm thrilled with my system: Mac Mini (apple lossless) > Apogee Duet > McIntosh MA6200 > JM Reynaud Twin MKIII. Jan, there are a couple of points from your Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 11:52 am post on which I'd like to comment: The issue is how do you go about explaining what you perceive and when do you stop thinking and begin to rely on a simple faith in what you've been told to believe. Most of us stop short when the explanation leads us into unfamiliar, uncomfortable territory... ...There is, IMO, a certain arrogance that is involved in the "scientific faith" which has been instilled in us in the last 150 years when it contradicts what kept us alive for the last several thousand years. The task is to sort out what is likely the truth and what is rubbish. If asking too many questions makes you uncomfortable, if being on the outside of traditional thinking (that which we have been taught is traditional at least when it is mostly just recent theory largely confined to the white man's world) stops you from asking more questions, if being called a voodoo practitioner makes you back away from what you observe as reality, then you will remain tied to the narrowness of your beliefs and shun anyone who disagrees. Unfortunately, that's what Newtonian thinking has given us. It is all too often now aimed at shutting down discussion and not encouraging further study. It's not at all uncommon for anyone experimenting with alternative treatments in any field to want to apply "logical" thinking to what they observe, it makes us feel comfortable to think we can control our world by explaining our world in accepted ways. The danger is when we no longer believe there is something we cannot explain. These are great points and go beyond the context in which they were presented (i.e. the varying perspectives on Pelt). One of the things I've grappled with for the past 1.5 years is having my belief system completely challenged and upended. The world is a different place for me now and, frankly, is a little lonelier because not many people are willing to leave the comfort of the "traditional" belief systems to examine what they've been taught from the moment they were born. We can start to understand the world when we forget what we were taught.-Tolstoy You wrote: "I don't dance nekked in the moonlight Hmmm...maybe my memory is faulty but wasn't there a post from a few years ago when you did just that.
SimplyMcIntosh Silver Member Username: Simplymcintosh Post Number: 372 Registered: Jan-05	Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 22:15 GMT Hey Nuck and MR! Good to see y'all again! MR, I'm saddened by the terrible fire tragedy in AU. May there be healing for all directly and indirectly affected.
M.R. Gold Member Username: My_rantz Australia Post Number: 2038 Registered: Nov-05	Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 23:04 GMT Thanks SM - the fires are a long way from us, but the whole country is feeling for those poor people. It seems every country has to have their share of grief at times. All this poses many questions about religion and one's beliefs.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13351 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 03:53 GMT . SM - You're asking me to remember what happened several years ago?! Mr. Dual I remember. What I had for lunch today - not so much! If I remember correctly, someone else suggested I did the moonlite somba and awoke the neighbors. I don't believe I ever confirmed or denied it at the time. Belief systems are dangerous things because too many demand you believe what they say to believe. Sorry to say The Nun has not been whacked, just pushed back into fainter memories. Recent events have put life and death on my agenda again. If you'd care to discuss this further, let me know. If you don't still have my email address, I'll send it to you. .
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1769 Registered: May-06	Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 04:01 GMT Short story SimplyMcIntosh I had a Carver amp, loved it. JV dropped off a faceless MA-6200, said try. JV asked if I did, I did not. Asked again, again no. Finally yes I tried it. Sold the Carver bought an MC-7300. So far my system is living happily ever after. For what its worth.
Sem Silver Member Username: Sem NY/CA USA Post Number: 846 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 12:45 GMT My oh my, old dogs gather again. Nice to see you around again Ghia. Same for you Rantz. Happy listening all.
SimplyMcIntosh Silver Member Username: Simplymcintosh Post Number: 373 Registered: Jan-05	Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 14:48 GMT Hey Sem! Good to see you again, too! It's starting to look like a reunion tour bubbling up. Who are we missing? JohnA, Art, Rick, Larry, Kegger...who else? Michael, thanks for the story! The MA6200 has been a happy addition to my listening experience, thanks to recommendations from Jan and Rick a few years back. If you are not familiar with this story, the MA6200 I have is my second one, after the first one I bought was shipped from CA to NC in a box designed for a 5lb wooden Mac cabinet not a 30lb Mac amp with a glass faceplate and there was no other packing material in the box. It sustained a little cosmetic damage which is discussed way back on this old dog thread (scroll down to Sept 7th posts): https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/103001.html Jan, I have your email, still. Will be in touch.
M.R. Gold Member Username: My_rantz Australia Post Number: 2039 Registered: Nov-05	Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 22:16 GMT Ditto to you Sem - and thanx for the jokes. SM - it seems many of us have bought and sold a bit to reach the point of being relatively satisfied with our audio lot. I'll admit it took some stumbling and a bit of expenditure to do so for me, but I am a very happy camper in our listening environment now and see no upgrades in the near future. That and the fact that we are in the midst of an economic downturn and one's financial situation can be no longer guaranteed.
Rick Barnes Gold Member Username: Rick_b Orlando, FL Post Number: 1444 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 14:00 GMT A reunion tour? I'll pass.... Return of the NUN? I'm in.... Hi y'all
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13372 Registered: May-04	Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 16:43 GMT . HOWWWWWWWW-DIE!
Asimo Bronze Member Username: Asimo Ramat-GanIsrael Post Number: 73 Registered: Apr-04	Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 14:52 GMT Hi to All Happy to see you all on the forum board. I do not write much nowadays but I look at the forum sometimes. I did not change much my setup. I still have all NAD stereo system, JAMO CONCERT C803 shelf speakers, and PHILIPS 32" LCD. I am now in the middle of transferring all my CD's to the computer, hard and tedious work. Almost forgot, I have a new Apple TV but I am not sure that it is audiophile grade and worse, I can't connect it the US library data. I use it to stream data from the computer ITune to TV wireless.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11654 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 01:29 GMT Did somebody ring the Geritol bell at the old dawg's home?
M.R. Gold Member Username: My_rantz Australia Post Number: 2046 Registered: Nov-05	Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 02:51 GMT Hi Asimo good to hear from you. Nuck, you'll have to speak up!
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 12184 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 23:18 GMT http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2009/05/01/9316131-ap.html
John A. Gold Member Username: John_a LondonU.K. Post Number: 4821 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 04:30 GMT SM: Who are we missing? JohnA, Art, Rick, Larry, Kegger...who else? Present, Miss! (clicks heels; salutes). M.R.: SM - it seems many of us have bought and sold a bit to reach the point of being relatively satisfied with our audio lot. That's where I am, M.R. Well, partly. Great to see old friends back here. Sorry I was not around in February. I have a few audio anecdotes. But they don't really fit into any of the categories. Nun at all. It can be difficult of getting back to old habits. In two weeks, this thread will have its fifth birthday. How might we mark this occasion?
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 12293 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 12:17 GMT Whatsa 5th anniversary gift? First year is paper. 5th year is now vinyl, cause I say so! Good to see you John. I want JV to run down the mono turntable setup here. Last visit down there Jan had to set up the table in the hallway. Speaker placement becomes simplified in a hurry.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13572 Registered: May-04	Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 15:30 GMT . Right now the "mono system" is just thrown together stuff that I can set up and take down till my old table top system (that I inherited from my Aunt who won it in a raffle) from the '40's gets up and running again. There is an old - wait, everything's old in this system - Dual 1009 with a Shure mono cartridge (a new stylus, thank you Shure for remembering those of us who like mono), a Marantz 2220B receiver or a HK 730 and a pair of Boston Acoustics A40's. Nothing younger than 25 years in equipment and nothing newer than 60 years in music. It's just for listening to the music and nothing else. Last week everything was set up on the floor but the music swung. .
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 12324 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 21:37 GMT The 2220 is interesting. JV, is the mono Shure surprisingly affordable or expensive? 2'38"at a time, a payment installment plan before it's time...gotta flip the LP, brb
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13576 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 00:31 GMT . I can't afford expensive mono cartidges, Nuck. Actually all I had to do was replace the stylus, the cartridge was already mounted. .
SimplyMcIntosh Silver Member Username: Simplymcintosh Post Number: 374 Registered: Jan-05	Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 02:10 GMT Michael, JV dropped off a faceless MA-6200, said try. LOL, well it is truly a small world then! If I am not mistaken, that faceless MA-6200 is the same one in my story. Jan bought it off of me - dirt cheap - and dumped, er, gifted Mr. Dual to me at the same time. It's good to see the Old Dawgs who dropped in after my last visit. Sorry, I missed you then! Life has been convoluted and trying lately.
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1934 Registered: May-06	Posted on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 - 05:38 GMT SM, Just like some marriages; "Sold the Carver bought an MC-7300. So far my system is living happily ever after." Bought a pair of MC-240s, one local, one Craigslist - Pittsburgh, thought I would fix and flip perhaps??? Local one did not need a fix. The Pittsburgh one I had restored to original. All new tubes in both, per JV's recommendation; Winged C's for output tubes. Sold the MC-7300. Once again, my system is living happily ever after.
M.R. Gold Member Username: My_rantz Australia Post Number: 2193 Registered: Nov-05	Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 11:19 GMT John, good to see you here. SM - hope life improves for you. Hope life improves for everyone :-) Been away for a couple of weeks - holiday in Byron Bay. Come home to devasting winds and torrential rain. SE Qld and now northern NSW are in a state of emergency. They say more to come here this weekend. It's a real nuisance when the rain hits hard on our metal roof - not good for music! Mike - saw your pics. Good on you man. Enjoy!
Sem Silver Member Username: Sem NY/CA USA Post Number: 886 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Friday, May 22, 2009 - 11:27 GMT Stay safe, stay dry MR. If it gets too loud there's always headphones. Supertramp - "It's Raining Again"
M.R. Gold Member Username: My_rantz Australia Post Number: 2194 Registered: Nov-05	Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 08:23 GMT Thanks Sem, as it turned out the weekend weather was not as tough as the predictions suggested. Still, plenty of people had more hardship, some towns, in NSW, have been flooded three times this year now and a couple more lives lost. Old Mother nature can be a beetch at times.
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1965 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 23:13 GMT Thanks M.R. - Glad you didn't have to deal with any more than a washed out yard. You got like 5 - 6 months before you have to worry about that, no? Cheers!
M.R. Gold Member Username: My_rantz Australia Post Number: 2203 Registered: Nov-05	Posted on Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - 04:04 GMT Sorry Mike, I though I had responded to you. Answer is - no one can really tell any more. Bad storms usually start about Oct/Nov and cyclone season is anything from Christmas to April. But in recent years potentially devasting weather can be anytime. Not only is the world's economy screwed up, seem mother nature is as well.
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1984 Registered: May-06	Posted on Wednesday, June 03, 2009 - 00:36 GMT It was a coin flip whether I posted here or in "Tube Talk" but since I feel more like an old dawg who just learned a deeply held secret I am posting here. Recently I moved from my MC-7300 to a pair of MC-240s which I am running as mono-blocks. For a period I believed that there was a compromise of sorts, with the solid state amp delivering all the goods on electronic music and the tubes clear cut winners on acoustical and vocals. My local dealer has allowed me to try out some of his demo tube traps, and with those in addition to a subset of my DIY traps, I have found the light. Now there is nothing that my MC-240s cannot do that trumps what the MC-7300 did. I can get all the volume I could want on all types of music without reaching distortion. Sweet. That has led me to purchase a steal of a deal on an MR-71. I thought if the amps were a step up why not the tuner? Wowsers!!! A leap up might be more like it. Anybody know anybody wanting a good (7/10) MR-78? Now with my Rogue Audio Magnum 99 tube pre, the MC-240s, and the MR-71 I should feel more comfortable contributing here and in "Tube Talk". Cheers!
M.R. Gold Member Username: My_rantz Australia Post Number: 2222 Registered: Nov-05	Posted on Thursday, June 04, 2009 - 02:45 GMT Mike your contributions are good anywhere. Soon we'll see wall to wall Macs in your place - as long as you are in musical nirvana is what matters. Whatever you do, don't listen to MF. I hate for you to have to relist all that Mac stuff again.
Larry R Gold Member Username: Larry_r Naples, FL Post Number: 1986 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 21:15 GMT Back from the grave, you say, dawgs? Harrummmppphhh! Just been napping. An update, in case y'all need something to help you sleep. Mer and I are not divorced - though it nearly came to that before I caved in and bought a pair of cordless stereo headphones. Yah see, the ole hearing is going rather fast in this ole dawg - and to hear TV or DVD I had to turn UP THE VOLUME to the point that Mer revolted. (but she's never revolting) What to do? A pair of sennheiser 130 wireless headphones appears to have saved our sagging relationship. Now Mer can listen to her beloved 46-inch Samsung LCD at about volume setting 12 (where I can't hear it at all!!) and I can sit next and be just fine with the phones. Oh, they're not as great as good speakers - but I'd rather sacrifice some sonic quality and keep my dear wife than the other way around! GRIN Nothing new for us so far as gear is concerned - we're waiting a bit before diving into the Blu-ray format with a new Oppo unit that just came out last month. With the economy hitting us all hard, $500USD is NOT something Mer will let this olde dawg spend. SIGH. Maybe Christmas? Umm. . . We've kept up with SM pretty well - and she and we have had great discussions about alternate philosophies, as well as various stereo applications. What a great person she is! Y'all may remember that my old friend Verne, out in LA, passed on - and that his son, Mark, has taken over much of his recording studio duties. We don't correspond much, but he does say that his dad's "black box" lossless solid state player is still under development. Panasonic pulled out, I guess, so the funding is minimal - but he and his pals insist that his modified flash card player will be the "CD of the future." Well, we'll see. Sending best wishes to y'all - and will check in again from time to time. If any of you get or review Blu-ray AUDIO let me know. Don't know if there ever will be audio-only Blu-ray discs - like the SACDs that bettered CDs, but just never caught on big-time. Cheery-oh, and all that. . . Respectfully. . .LarryR
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 12569 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 21:44 GMT Glad to know that you are both well Larry! Keep well and enjoy.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9787 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 21:47 GMT Good to hear from Larry...hey you're still enjoying the music and that's fab. We bought an inexpensive BD player which has been great for upconverting our DVD's...considerably better than our Oppo. Not many Blu Ray discs yet though...waitin' for them to come down in price.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 12570 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 22:05 GMT An aside, on this most grim of anniversaries... I would wish to extend my greatest thanks and considertions to the very many veterans of D-day out there. The greatest of sacrifices were laid bare on many beaches that day, and the prices paid are beyond my understanding. I would offer my gretest of thanks to the great Canadians who won Juno beach, against all odds, all numbers and the most ugly of all possible scenarios. The little army of a little country showed what we could do, given enough loyalists. The country in which I live and thrive in is owed directly to the bravery and sacrifice of my Canadian legacy and her fearless sons. Led in audacity in the face of certain death and worse, the Canadian force broke through the defences of the Germans, against all odds, and all forces. I hold the pride of being Canadian close to my heart, even as the current day makes me take pause. The Canadian forces were a force to be recconed with, be it in Dieppe, Roths ridge or Juno beach, the little country that could always found a way. Our sons always volunteered,. They left their homes and farms to stand against what was wrong. That is Canadian. I offer a toast to all the lads who endured the most awful of conditions, lived in the shadow of fear and doubt, and fought like true Canadians, always feared as true to the faith of wishing peace, enforcing otherwise. This is my annual wish to my Grandfather, Jock Macaulay, who died on Juno beach. Bless you father, for we live because of you. Peace

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