Advice on Mid Priced HT Receiver and Speakers
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| Hi All; I'm new to the HT scene, and am seeking advice on a Receiver and speakers. I just purchased a Hitachi 51S500 (love it). TO start, I'm going to use some older PSB bookshelf speakers for the surround, and use the Hitachi TV speakers for the center. So, I'm looking to purchase a Receiver, front speakers (towers) and a sub to start, and later add a center and better surrounds. My budget is $1,000 - $1,200. My listening will be 60% music/40% movies. I have a turntable and lots of LPs so the receiver must have phone jacks. I listened to the Onkyo TX SR700 (refurb at $349) through some Polk R50 towers and the power seemd a bit weak. We had it up to 70 out of 100, and it was not that loud. I've heard that the Yamaha, although they have good power, tend to lack "warmth" for music listening. I'd appreciate any thoughts and/or recommendations, as I know there are many experienced and helpful folks on this forum.\ Thanks! Boots |
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Hawk | Boots: Given the following factors: 1. You want some tower speakers; 2. You want a little warmth to the sound; 3. You have noticed some 100 wpc receivers aren't really capable of producing 100 wpc (Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, Sony, just to name a few of the usual suspects); 4. You listen to 60% music (a very important factor); and 5. You have a budget of $1000-1200, I would suggest the following: Receiver: You need a musical receiver. Unfortunately, there are very few out there. For your budget, I would look at an NAD 742 or an Outlaw 1050. The NAD is a 50 wpc x 5 receiver that has more power than the Onkyo you heard (I know because I compared them directly--the NAD has an honest rating). MSRP is $649, but you can still get one from Saturday Audio for $449 (www.saturdayaudio.com). Look on their "Deals Page." I am strongly considering one for my study for strictly two channel listening to LPs and CDs. The Outlaw 1050 is an internet sales only product, available directly from Outlaw Audio (www.outlawaudio.com). Rated at 65 wpc x 3, it is a honest 60 wpc x 6 and is priced at $499, and comes with a 30 day money back guarantee, no questions asked return policy. These two receivers are among the very few that even use quality transistor outputs--most of the competition at this price level tends to use IC outputs which really make for inferior sound. The competition also tends to come with crummy power supplies, too, but they hide all of this with the tricks their receivers can do (which has nothing to do with good sound, BTW, especially for music). Both the Outlaw and the NAD have superb power supplies (the NADs is defintely superior to the one in my $1200 Denon). Phono: Now, neither of these receivers have a phono jack, but that is not a problem. You can get a very nice phono pre-amp for about $120 from either NAD (the PP2) or Sumiko (the Pro-Ject Box). Either will sound much better than the built in phono sections on any HT receiver (I know from personal experience as my Denon has a phono section and it is not very good). You simply plug the phono preamp into an auxillary input on the receiver and assign it a name. Speakers: This one is easy. Get some PSB Image 4T towers. These are an excellent speaker at their MSRP of $649, but I have seen them priced at a good 20% below that (check with Kiefs--www.kiefs.com, who wants $499, I think). They rock, and will go well with your current PSB surrounds. You can also add a nice PSB 8C center speaker for about $199, later on. Finally, these speakers are also an excellent match for either receiver I suggested. Both receivers have top quality sound that lends itself to great enjoyment of music, as well as superb HT sound. On whole, such a system would be very musical and enjoyable in either 2 or multi-channel sound formats. And, it is right in your budget! |
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Derek | How did you know you were at 70 watts? I was going to recommend the non-THX Onkyo TX SR601 or Denons 1604 or 1804 but you seem to need more power. Unless you buy refurb/returns $1000 for a stong amp, a pair of towers AND and sub is going to be hard to do. Purhaps you should look into one of the refurbed NADs Hawk is fond of. NADs are powerfull - typically producing twice thier rated power contunuously and four times rated power for brief bursts and they have good sound to back it up. As to the towers... If you buy large enough towers, you don't need a sub at all. Listen to a pair of these http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1051806302049&skuId=5335942&type=product&productCategoryId=cat03044 or a pair of Paradigms Phantoms, Monitor Audios or Missions. An inexpensive $300 sub will likely have a single 8" driver. The Athenas above have four 8" drivers total. The big advantage of subs is lower intermodulation distortion and price when you purchase a 5.1 system, but you already have two or three of the speakers. The Athena and Missions have corresponding center and rear speakers that you can upgrade to at a later time. $1000 (new) is going to be tough. Hope this helps. |
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| Hawk & Derek; Thanks so much for your inputs. I really value it, and appreciate your time! I know there is no easy solution given my budget. Hawk: Are the NAD and Outlaw both 6.1 HT receivers with all the usual formats (i/e/ DTS-ES;Dolby Digital EX, Pro Logic, etc.) along with all the DSP stuff for HT listining? Do either or both have mulit-room capability (as the Onkyo 700) and pre outs? With the Phono Pre-Amp, how do you handle the ground? Also, as to price and budget, the NAD, with the Phono pre-amp, plus the PSB Image 4Ts comes to almost $1,100, and I still have a sub to buy (and that's without shipping) Any thoughts on a decent budget sub and/or paring down on a piece of the other gear to keep it under $1200? Derek: When I listend to the Onkyo TX SR700, the 70 wasn't the watts, but the volume level on the receiver (70 out of 100). I don't have to be blasting the music or HT (living room is 14' x 25') with the couch about 9' from the TV and speakers, but I've always valued the concept of "headroom" in the power output. I just got nervous when the Volume level was already at 70 out of 100 and it wasn't all that loud. I had thought about no sub, but HT enthusiasts seem to agree that one is needed to get the full HT experience. Sorry for so many return questions, but would love to hear back from both of you folks as to your further thoughts. Thanks again so much for the input and time!! Boots |
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Hawk | Boots: You are asking a lot, my friend! Actually it is pretty common as we all (or most of us) have limited budgets. But, you need to decide how important is the sound quality to you. Now there are several questions here, so let me address them as I can. 1. The turntable is grounded at the phono preamp. It is just not a problem. 2. The NAD is only 5 channel and it only has the five channel formats, so it may not work for you. However, the Outlaw is a six channel and either has all of the six channel formats or simulates them. Outlaw keeps the cost down by not licensing some formats and using their own algorithms to decode the information. I have excerpted a recent review from Home Theater & Sound to explain: "The Model 1050 features the usual Dolby Digital, DTS, and Dolby Pro Logic options found in almost all other A/V receivers on the market. What sets this receiver apart from the competition in its price class is the inclusion of 6.1 decoding. Outlaw, in conjunction with Zoran Corporation (the Model 1050 is equipped with Zoran's ZR38650 multi-format digital audio processor), created a proprietary algorithm for extracting the center-surround channel from Dolby Surround EX-encoded discs. The receiver will automatically decode in 6.1 mode when a DVD with the Surround EX flag is present. 6.1 can be manually invoked with any Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack too, which makes this mode compatible with a lot of software." "The 1050's 6.1 mode is not compatible with DTS-ES Matrix or DTS-ES Discrete center-surround modes. This may or may not be important to you, since there are currently fewer DTS-ES discs than Dolby Surround EX. There is a work-around for playing back DTS-ES discs, though. If you have a DVD player with a built-in DTS decoder, you have an option. Using the 5.1-channel outputs from my DVD player into the Model 1050, I can select the 5.1 inputs and manually select the 6.1 surround mode on the receiver. This does indeed extract a center-surround signal, but it is a roundabout way to achieve DTS-ES." Although this may seem to be a problem, it has not been my experience as the DTS-ES is very rare. And the wonderful sound of the 1050 more than compensates for any format that it lacks. Again quoting Home Theater & Sound: "In standard Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1, the Outlaw Model 1050 performed flawlessly. Dialogue was firmly anchored to the center speaker, such as in the DVD Malena. During the bombing scenes, explosions can be heard discretely in the surround speakers, placed right where they should be. The musical score throughout this DVD sounded wonderfully smooth. "Smooth" is a word that kept cropping up in my listening notes. This is a receiver that I can listen to all day without experiencing listener's fatigue, which can't be said of many receivers in its price class." So I still highly recommend the Outlaw. 3. Multi-room capability can easily been handled in one of two ways: either get a speaker selector box or use the Outlaw's 12v trigger to power a remote amp. Now, I recognize the second option is more expense, which you would have to do later on. 4. Costs: Yes, I recognize that with the Outlaw and a phono preamp, I am up to $600. However, I would still recommend the PSB 4Ts since you already have the PSB surrounds. You can save a little money by going to DMC Electronics (www.dmc-electronics.com) for a factory blem model ($449--a savings of $50). I have seen their blems and I couldn't find the problem until it was pointed out to me, especially in the black. Furthermore, if you are like me, they would be scratched in your home in about a week, anyways. The 4Ts also put out plenty of bass, so you don't need a sub right away. In fact, I would suggest the center speaker is more important than the sub, particularly since you would have tower speakers which have lots of bass. A good sub to go with them is also a PSB from DMC or Kiefs, like a PSB Subsonic 5 or Subsonic 6. If you have to have the sub now, I suggest you change to standmount speakers. Check out the PSB 3LRs from DMC, which are now discontinued and at an attractive price ($299/pair) from DMC. These are so big they are almost towers themselves and will give you a tower like sound. Add a PSB Subzero-i for $219 and you are set. |
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Hawk | Boots: I have re-thought my advice and I would suggest different towers. Check out the Mirage FR-x5 floorstanding speaker. Cost is $250/pair and the dealer who is closing them out is offering free shipping for the time being. Check them out here: http://audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=MIRFRX5BL&product_name=FRx-5%20Floorstanding%20Speakers%20in%20Black%20-%20Pair Superb sound and it leaves you money left over for a subwoofer, too. So now, with the Outlaw receiver and Sumiko phono pre-amp, we are up to $600. Add the Mirage speakers for $250 and you are at $850. Now, add a PSB Subsonic 5 sub, available from DMC for $250, and you have the whole thing for a mere $1100. Sound better? |
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Boots | Hawk, First, thanks for all the input. It really gives a lot of food for thought (..and a bit of a headache!) As regards the receiver, although you speak highly of the Outlaw, I'm a little leery of the lack of the standard surround sound modes. I know you say their proprietory alogrithms are compatible, but it still scares me a bit, so I'm leaning towards the NAD. I know it's a bit less powerful than the Outlaw (50 compard to 65w) and it is 5.1 and not 6.1, but from what you say about the power of the NAD, it sounds like it would be just fine. Do yo think there will be much loss in HT with 5.1 as opposed to 6.1? As to the speakers, I don't want to scrimp on the towers, even if I have to get the sub later. Are the PSB Image 4T (at $449 a pair) that much better than the Mirage FR-X5 (at $250 a pair)? (I do love the look of the PSBs in cherry wood) I went to a local store (Tweeters) that carries Mirage but as the FR-X5 are discontinued, they didn't have them. They did have a close out on a pair of Boston Acoustics CR-95 for $316 a pair that sounded nice. Also, I stopped at a Best Buy and heard the Athena AS F1 ($399 Pair)and AS F2 ($599 a pair) that were very clear and punchy. Actually, I thought the AS F1 sounded better than the F2, but maybe it was the way they had them hooked up. Well, once again, more questions Look forward to hearing from you again. Boots |
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Hawk | Boots: I fully understand your concern about the Outlaw. Again, I suggested it because of its price and the wonderful sound it produces, but the NAD has the same great sound and it has the licensed formats that you may want such as Dolby Pro Logic II that the Outlaw doesn't. I think it also has EARS--a proprietary format that I have never taken the time to listen to, but all of my NAD owning friends swear it is the best format of all. I am not enamoured with 6.1--the sixth channel is simply a combination of the two back surrounds. It is matrixed sound and is not a discrete channel, so it really doesn't add anyhting except more volume. It is just marketing nonsense. Good grief, it will never end, either. Yamaha has now shipped their new RX-Z9, which is a 9.1 receiver! This is like the old high school locker room thing of who has the biggest d***. A pretty pointless exercise. When will there be enough channels for these companies? Frankly 5.1 is the standard and that is not going to change, so I think you are safe with the NAD 742 and I am sure you won't miss anything. Everything is encoded in 5.1 and nothing is in 6.1 that I know of. I am only aware of one DVD done in 7.1 (the most recent Bond film and it also has the 5.1 encoded soundtrack) and absolutely nothing is in 9.1 (how bogus to even offer that product). Speakers are really a crapshoot as you have to decide what you like the best. I do think the PSBs are a very good speaker. So is the Mirage, which was worth its original price of $550, but it is a discontinued speaker and finding a matching center would be very hard. However, I offered it since I was trying very hard to stay within your budget. I do think the PSB is a superb speaker and I believe given your professed interest in music, you would love it too. Both the PSB and the NAD are very musical products that will be very satisfying. I wish I could say something about the Bostons--I haven't heard them. The one store I know of in my area that carried them has apparently dropped them in favor of KEF products, so I can't opine one way or another. The Athenas are a good speaker and a good candidate, too. It is really hard to determine what something sounds like in a Best Buy, however. So, I would recommend the PSBs if you can afford them--best looking speaker of the bunch as well as the best sounding, IMO, but the Mirages and the Athenas are very competitive, too, and worthy of being considered. Warmest regards. |
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G-Man | I am pretty sure the Kenwood VR-6070 has phono inputs and it can be gotten delivered for $435. It has plenty of power for any 8 ohm speakers (as its THX certification can attest), all the popular formats (including Dolby Prologic II). It is even available as a refurb at $300--although I couldn't attest to the condition at deepdiscountjungle. This leaves you with far more money for the speakers--which is as it should be. Too bad that your budget just misses enabling you from buying the Aperion 5.1 system or an Axiom 5.1. Five Aperion bookshelfs for the left, right, center, and right and left surrounds cost $900--and that is without subwoofer. If one added a PSB subsonic 5 subwoofer for $350 you'd have a great system at the price. Another alternative for a small room would be Ascend Acoustics 2 fronts, center, and surrounds for $635. For a medium or bigger room they have a great 5 speaker set-up for $750. You add the PSB subwoofer and you have another great system. |
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Derek | This months SoundandVision magazine shows a Kenwood VR-7080 rated at 100 watts x6 clipping at 35 watts per channel x6. How many watts can it produce at rated distortion? 20. The thing has all the goods but there are so many manufacturers, like this one, litterally ripping people off. It's a crime. I liked it better when NAD, Proton, Carver and Soundcraftsmen under-rated thier amps. Alright. I'm done. |
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Hawk | Derek: I fully agree. I think Kenwood's products are a sham. |
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Railbait | Hawk, Just curious, but would you consider the NAD T761 over the T742? DMC electronics has the 761 (in limited quantities) refurbished at $499. |
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Hawk | Railbait: I was tempted myself by the 761 from DMC, but the sad fact is I have not heard it, so I haven't pulled the trigger. Now, I am sure that it would sound like an NAD, but how it sounds in comparison to the 742, I don't know. John A. sure loves his 760, which is a generation earlier. |
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Boots | Hawk, Ok, finally got to listen to the NAD T742. I definitely agree that it is worlds better in sound and power than the Onkyo 700! I have heard that it is now discontinued. If that's correct, do you think the price will go down further than the $449 at Saturday Audio? Also, is there any downside to the fact that it does not have Component Video inputs as does the Onkyo TX SR700? Finally, I'd be interested in your response to :RAILBAIT"'s question above about the T761 refurb at $499, compared to the T742 new at $449. As to the speakers, unfortunately, I can't seem to find any stores within an hour's drive that carry PSBs. I listened to the T742, first through a pair of Paradigm Esprit. ($399 pair)and I thought the speakers sounded great, although a bit weak in the bass. Then they switched to a pair of the Paradigm Phantoms (demo at $500 a pair). They did have more bass response, but the low-mids were a bit hollow and/or mushy, if that makes sense. I pushed the bass up a bit on the T742 and actually thought the Esprit's sounded better...crisper and punchier. Then the sales guy threw me a curve...He set up some DefTechs (Definitive Technology) BP6 and BP8. They were both Demos with full 5 yr warranties. It was the first time I'v heard the bi-polars and I was impressed. The BP6, at $429 for the demo pair, had the crispness of the Paradigm Esprit, but with fuller and more solid bass (I liked them better than the Paradigm Phantoms - although I think their floor model Phantoms had something wrong with them) Do you have any opinions on the Paradigm's and the DefTechs? Without going up into the $700 - $800 range, I thought the DefTech BP6 sounded amazing, especially for $429 (the store usually sells them for $600) I still want to hear the PSB Image 4T though, as I am now willing to spend the budget on the receiver and fronts and wait for the Center, sub and the phone pre-amp. (BTW this store had the NAD PPII phone pre amp on sale for $100) Look forward to hearing back from you! Thanks again. Boots |
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Hawk | Boots: I was very pleased that you took the time to listen for yourself. Now you understand about how receivers can sound so different when compared using the same speakers and source material. Just like speakers, a consumer should shop and pick out the receiver sound that they like the best. This can sometimes be hard with the lesser brands, however, as the Sonys, Kenwoods, JVCs, etc., tend to all sound alike. But the sound differs when you get to the premium brands like NAD, Rotel, Pioneer Elite, H/K and a few others. That Onkyo is not a bad receiver, either, but the sound of the NAD is just so much cleaner and transparent, that the Onkyo pales in comparison to the NAD. I think choosing the NAD is a "no brainer." Your best decision, though, was to take the time to listen for yourself. (BTW, Sound & Vision recently tested the Onkyo 900, two steps above the 700, and discovered that its power was only 54 wpc at clipping when all channels were driven, which is probably less than what the 742 produces). 1. Will the 742 price go down further?: No. That is a special price as Saturday Audio made a deal with NAD to buy a large shipment of 742s and got a great price from NAD in return. You won't do better, IMO. 2. T 761 post answered--see post above yours. 3. All good speakers--trust your own ears and get what you like. I like Paradigms and I like Def Techs (which are a bit more forward sounding generally, but I have not heard the bi-polars--they sound interesting). Both of those brands represent well built speakers and they are a good value, IMHO. If you like one of them better than the other, go with your preference--they should be right for you. The reason I post on this board is to help others get a system that sounds good to them. 4. I think your decision to get a good stereo setup (742 plus mains) and add the center, surrounds, and sub later is a great strategy. You will be happier in the long run as you will be able to afford better sounding speakers. However, map out your plan and identify the center and surrounds that you will want to get in the future that match your front mains. Remember, they have to be timbre matched (unlike the sub which doesn't and should be the last thing you buy to round out your system). So, if you got the Def Techs, for instance, you would have heard and been comfortable with the matching Def Tech center speaker that goes with the BP6s. Likewise the surrounds. Then you can keep an eye out and buy if they go on sale at a later date. 5. Good price on the PP2 and just where I thought it would be. It is much improved over the older PP1. Good luck. Glad I can help. |
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Hawk | Boots: I missed your question about the lack of component video connections on the 742. Sorry. However, I don't think you will miss them. Do you have HDTV? If you don't, it couldn't come into play. Most of my friends, including myself, skip the receiver and connect our souce material (DVD, Cable, Satellite, etc.) directly to the TV. Less processing means less degradation, and you can't see any improvement over composite or S-video connections unless you are passing a High Definition signal to an HDTV. It really isn't important, IMO, and I am beginning to believe component video may yet die in favor of DVI connections anyways, but that is a whole other thread for another date. If you have a need for component video switching at a later date, you just buy a remote switchbox, which you can operate with your receiver's remote and will allow you to add more connections. Here is an example: https://www.dcpuraty.com/store/Product_Details.asp?ProductCode=AA1154 |
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Boots | Hawk, As always, thanks for the response! As to the speakers, I did enjoy the DefTech BP6, but if the PSB Image 4T would be significantly better, I would go for them as the cost is only another $60. (I just can't seem to find a place to listent to them  ) I hear what you are saying regarding matching the center and surrounds to the Mains, so that brings up another thought. As I posted much earlier, I plan on using an old pair of PSB bookshelf speakers for the surround. I'll have to find the old manual on them, but I believe the are PS1 or PS2..is that one of their older models? What compatability issues would I have in using these for the surround with either the PSB Image 4T as opposed to the DefTech? Now, back to the NAD ...another fly in the ointment! I do have a HDTV (Hitachi 51S500) and through Comcast, I have an HD cable box, currently getting 7 HD channels (they are absolutely amazing!!!) So, I guess i have to either re-think the receiver for one with Component Video, or look at springing for another $150 for the switchbox you mention above? (I see that the refurb T761 does have component video) Oh, and what is the difference between Component Video and Composite Video? God this is a tedious process!!! Thanks again for all you help Hawk! Boots |
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Boots | Hi Hawk, Any thoughts on the above post? Thanks and regards! Boots |
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Anonymous | I AM PUTTING TOGETHER MY FIRST MIDGRADE H/T SYSTEM AND AM LOOKING FOR ADVISE. I AM USING ATLANTIC TECHNOLOGY 270 THX SELECT SPEAKERS,AND FOR THE RECEIVER I AM LOOKING AT ONKYO TXNR801 OR DENNON AVR3803. OPINIONS OR OTHER OPTIONS WOULD BE APPRECIATED. |
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Hawk | Boots: Hmmm. I think I would go with the Def Techs if you really like them. I am not very excited about recommending the PSBs when you can't hear them before you order them. You may not like them, after all, and then I would have let you down. I do not want to do that. I like to point people toward the products I know to be very good, but the final decision has to be yours because this is what you are going to listen to, not me. Both the PSBs and the Def Techs are excellent products. Now, I don't know your TV, so how many component video connections does your TV have? If it has two, simply connect your sources directly to the TV (DVD and cable box). Your learning remote that comes with the receiver will change the channels and sources for you anyways. Or, you could step up to the 752, which does have two component video inputs. In short, the program video sources do not need to be connected to the receiver. |
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Boots | Hawk, Thanks for all the replies! I am still trying to find a place to listen to the PSBs, as I always liked the old PSB bookshelf monitors I had in my studio...and will still use for my surrounds. DMC will sell me the Image RT, brand new in Cherry for the $449 blemished black price so I really am going to try and listen, even if I have to travel a bit. They seem to get such good reviews, and I haven't seen any reviews on the DefTech BP6. I have seen you refer to the "forward" or "laid back" quality of speakers and receivers, and the thoughts of matching "forward" sounding receivers with "laid back" speakers, (or vice versa) to have a more pleasing sound. Would you consider the NAD to be a more laid back reciever and the PSBs a more forward speaker? As to the NAD, I'm percieving that you are saying that the component video inputs on the NAD are not needed (even for HDTV) as it is better to avoid running the video signal through through the receiver due to signal degradation. Is that correct? ...and if so, why do people do it? Sorry, I just don't understand why a video signal would be put through an audio component. My TV has two Component Video Inputs, and I use one for my HD cable box and one for my DVD.(the only audio connections on the TV are L/R out and Center In.) Another question on the NAD T742 (I can't afford the T752 at $725) I've read a lot of things about problems with the firmware, etc (clicking, etc.) As I would be buying it from DMC,($449) I'd be stuck with shipping costs if I have to return it. Do you think it's a safe buy these days, or should I expect problems with it? I have seen some favorable thoughts from you and others on the HK AVR 230 (325) which has component Video, and is something that I could buy locally. Is this a forward or laid back receiver, and which speakers are a good match? I mean I really liked the sound of the NAD, but I got a little scared reading about purchasers having to send them back for repair/replacement 2 and 3 times, coupled with posts about volume clicking,etc. Once again Hawk, thank you (and everyone else) for the patience and information. I'm turning into a semi-educated consumer thanks to this site! Look forward to your reply. Regards Boots |
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MAR | Back into the thread... Hawk and others: you have recommended both the NAD 742 (saturday audio) and the Outlaw 1050. As I presented before, I was tolerating an older Denon with only PLI for some time and now I'm upgrading in the 4-$500 range. I drove an hour to the only place that told me I could listen to the NAD vs. Denon, but alas it was not as advertised so I could only hear the NAD 742 on stereo vs. a NAD integrated which cost less but sounded a little fuller (both sounded very nice on the JMLs which were priced near the price of my B&W 601S3's). My questions are(particularly to those who've actually heard both) >which of the 742/1050 will give more sound for the money in stereo and surround >will I really miss the PL2 if I continue to listen to a lot of non-5.1 satellite broadcast (so little in 5.1when you check!). (I've resigned myself to a Niles SPS-4 switcher ($90) or running my older reciever from the tape out in place of an A/B switch.) Thanks for your help up to now! |
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MAR | Back into the thread... I have been hearing so much about NAD 742 and Outlaw 1050 on these very helpful threads, yet still wondering about the Denon 1803. Unfortunately I have only been able to HEAR the NAD 742 (which I was told I could listen vs. Denon and drove an hour to compare without success). I listened instead to the NAD 742 in stereo against a less expensive NAD integrated amp. Both sounded nice on the JML speakers (similarly priced to my B&W 601S3) but the integrated amp sounded fuller. To those that have heard the Outlaw and the NAD, which will give me more sound for the money in the stereo AND surround modes? Also, will I really miss the PL2 when I watch my Hitachi if I get the Outlaw (I listen to satellite broadcasts on the reciever and very few are in 5.1). P.S. I've resigned myself to getting a Niles PLS4 switcher or running a smaller reciever from the tape out jack to drive my B speakers... |
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boots | Hmmmmmmmmmmm ....I thought we were still on the thread :\ |
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Hawk | MAR: I really think the question is whether you are going to use a 5.1 system or a 6.1 system. I personally believe 5.1 is all anyone needs, but I recognize that there are 6.1 devotees out there and I will not "rain on their parade." If you want or need a sixth channel, that may well decide which receiver to get. If you want a 6.1 system, you should get the Outlaw. I do not believe that the lack of Dolby Pro Logic II in the Outlaw is a fatal flaw--it is really useful primarily for listening to video tapes of concerts, in my experience. Additionally, if you have low impedence speakers (4 ohm), the Outlaw is probably the better choice On the other hand, if you are a 5.1 fan and don't care about a sixth channel, get the NAD. Then you will have the DPL II and NAD's proprietary EARS format that is very good for converting 2 channel stereo sound into 5 channel sound. Otherwise, these two recievers are very close to each other in terms of power and quality sound. Both are very dynamic and have beefy power supplies, heavy duty capacitors, and high quality bi-polar transistors for great dynamics and smooth sound. Both are very well built, too. So, which fits your needs the best? |
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Boots | Hi Hawk! Hope I'm not buggin' ya ...looking at other topics, I see you're all over the place advising all us novices! If you have the chance, take a look at my last post above (right before the 2 from MAR) and let me know what you think. Thanks again and regards! Boots |
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Hawk | Boots: No problem! I miss things from time to time, so I guess I am just getting old! Sorry about that. I will try to answer all of your questions, so if I miss one, just repost. 1. "Forward" is something that is really hard to explain. I wish I could show you using some different pairs of speakers that I have. Likewise, "laid-back" (or "reserved") is another quality that is hard to explain through this forum, but I wiill give it is try. "Forward" is a sound that is projected more from the speaker. Every good speaker tries to re-create a soundstage, where you can close your eyes and picture what the stage looks like (where the musicians are in relation to one another). A forward speaker projects the soundstage forward from the speaker, whereas a laid back speaker has the soundstage further back. Imagine being at a concert. A forward speaker is like being closer to the stage and laid back is like being further back in the concert hall. Both of these terms describe the mid-range, which is the dominant frequencies coming from the speaker, thus it is among the most dominant charecteristics. I think Paradigms are a great example of what I consider a laid back speaker. Conversely, I find the Athenas to be rather forward sounding. Now, forward and laid back are only two charecteristics among many that speakers can exhibit. 2. I think the NAD is a bit (not much) forward sounding, when compared to the usual mass market clone receiver. The PSBs are just a bit laid back. This provides a nice balance as no charecteristic is being overly exaggerated. (my favorite example is a Yamaha receiver, which tend to be "bright sounding"--an exaggeration of the 2Khz to 4Khz band of the upper midrange--with Klipsch speakers, which are also bright sounding. While each is a good product, combined they really exaggerate the upper midrange and I find the combo hard to listen to). No one's products are "neutral" although every salesperson will tell you that their products are, but some products are closer to neutral than others. I consider the NAD receivers and PSB speakers to be among those that are very close. 3. Yes, I am saying that it is better to avoid the component video connections on ANY RECEIVER as the signal can only be degraded passing through an electronic component that serves no real purpose. I just believe that it is better to connect the tv directly with the source or, if you need to have external switching, you are better off getting a dedicated switch box which has a wider bandwidth and no "bleed-through" of spurious electronic signals that could disrupt the video signal. I think you have correctly framed the question of "why should a video signal be passed through an audio component?" It is a very good question. It is like pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes. As to why people do it, well, salepeople tell them to do it because: a) the connections are there and it helps justify the cost of the receiver (a selling point); and, b) it is an excuse to sell more high margin interconnects (have you priced component video cables? What a racket!) 4. The H/K receiver is very laid-back in its sound. I don't believe it sounds as clean and clear as the NAD, but that doesn't mean it is a bad product. Far from it. H/Ks have tremendous build quality and excellent power supplies. While I may not like the sound as much, it is better than most receivers out there and you may prefer its sound to that of the NAD. You should choose what you like the best. I reject any claim that these receivers all sound alike, so you should just look at features. I have listened to almost all of them and I found very large differences when you know what to listen for. So, you should get the sound you prefer. As for the clicking sound issue on the NAD, I have several friends that have this receiver and we have not heard it. While I don't doubt that some people have this problem with their 742s, I don't think it is endemic to the product--that is, it is the exception that has a problem, not the rule. While there have been several people who have posted their problems on this board, we have also ahd a number who have posted their praise for the quality of the product. Besides, we have had people complain about almost every product out there over the past 6 to 9 months. I think it is unlikely that you would get a problem unit, especially this late in the product run (fixes are usually done during the run). I will tell you that I am ordering an NAD receiver myself, so I am not concerned about it. I just know too many people who have these products and have had no problem. There are no guarantees with any of these products from any manufacturer. I think it is more important to know what the manufacturer will do to get it fixed if there is a problem. I would suggest you listen to the H/K and the NAD and determine which one you like to listen to the best. That will be the right speaker for you. Good luck. |
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MAR | Hawk:Thanks for the patient feedback. I wonder if you run this site... you're so involved in so many threads. I think I'll be going with the 742 as I have no room for a 6th speaker in my main room and I imagine that I'll appreciate the PLII on VHS and satellite broadcast. As I noted before, I have B&W 601s for front, Heybrook .5 rear (they sound pretty good!) but no center (thanks to phantom). Do you (and anyone else that cares to comment) strongly recommend B&W center with this and if so do I need the LCR600 or can I go less expensive with LCR60, another B&W line, or even another similar sounding brand? To replace my old KLH 17 upstairs (the B setup in a larger room) do you have inexpensive recommendations based on my "B&W taste"? I'd like to get away with $250-350pr. I've seen mention of the FX-5. Should I do something like this or should I go bottom of the line B&W on the wall, bottom JML, or something else altogether. Yes, I visit www.audioadvisor.com frequently and wonder about Warfdale, Athena, etc. but I wish I could listen somewhere! Thanks! |
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MAR | P.S. to Hawk and others... One hesitation on the NAD742 is that I can only find one commercial review (what's on video) and it wasn't glowing (3/5 overall 4/5 sound) while the Outlaw 1050 received glowing reviews (albiet in 2001) all over. Anyone else seen any other print reviews of the NAD 742? |
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Hawk | MAR: LOL!! Yeah, I guess I do get into a lot of threads. It didn't start that way, but as more people directed questions to me, I started answering. Let me answer your questions this way: 1. B+W center speaker-get the LCR 60. The 600 is a better speaker, but it is $150 more and I don't think the difference is justified with your 601s. The 60 is a better match for the 601s. I recommend the LCR600 for the 602.5s and 603s. 2. Upstairs: Yes, I would get the B+W 303s, which are a marvelous speaker at $300/pr. Very close in sound and timbre to your 601s and they make for a very smooth stereo pair. The other good alternative is the Mirage FR-x5s, still available from audio advisor for $250/pr., but they are floorstanders, which may be too big for your upstairs setup. I don't think you would like the JMlabs, since you like B+Ws so much. I find the JMlabs to be rather bright and coarse (its the all metal dome tweeter). Finally, also check out some PSB Image 1Bs or 2Bs, which will also sound close to your B+Ws. DMC Electronics has a bunch on their website (factory blems) or call Kiefs for a good price on new ones. 3. Yes, I have read the review on What HiFi? of the 742, but if you read the article you will see that they have no quibble with the sound, which got a high rating, but they were very critical of its lack of features. This is a judgement call here as I would gladly sacrifice "features" (which I never use) for a higher quality sound. Hence my recommendation of the 742. I have lived with my Denon now for almost a year and it has loads of features, but it leaves me very unsatisfied with the sound. I heard the 742 directly against a Denon 2802, which has the same sound as mine, and I was blown away by the difference--they NAD was just so much cleaner, clearer, and more convincing. Yet, I recognize it isn't for everyone and that is why I tell people to listen for themselves. If you hear the difference I did and you appreciate how much better it sounds, it becomes a compelling reason to buy the 742. If you don't hear the difference, then you should probably look at a different brand to satisfy your needs. Unfortunately, I have seen no other review of the 742. As a sidenote, I also had the same reaction to listening to the Outlaw receiver, and I think that was why it was so warmly received by the audio reviewers here in the USA--neither the NAD nor the Outlaw is another "me, too" product from the mass market cartel. |
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Hawk | MAR: As a follow-up to your last post, I did come across another review of the NAD T742 from Tone Magazine, which is from New Zealand. You can access it on the NAD website by looking up the T742 and at the bottom of the product description you will find a link to "Tone New Zealand". They liked it. |
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MAR | Hawk, Thanks again, you're tremendously helpful. I do have room for the Mirage's (its a big room, don't do a tremedous amount of listing there though; getting the best sound on a low,low budget is the goal). Do they similar characteristics to the B&W? I imagine that they'll have a better bass reponse with their size (plus I can save on speaker stands). The "blems" don't bother me... should I consider even the PSB Image 3LR at $299pr? Unfortunately I can't really hear anything but the B&W's nearby. |
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Hawk | MAR: I haven't heard the PSB 3LRs, although I was very interested in them myself. My local PSB dealer tells me they have been discontinued and he was not forthcoming with any further info on them. I think you would be satisfied with the Mirages. They are a tremendous buy from Audio Advisor and they are a very smooth speaker, not unlike your B+Ws. They are a bit brighter, however, with that metal dome tweeter. |
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Boots | Hawk, As always, thanks for your time and observations! I am going out to listen to the H/K today to compare. 1. & 2. I totally understand the soundstage concept and forward vs laid back, and appreciate your patient explanations. 3. You Component Video explanation makes sense. It only raises one question. If I run my Audio Out from my TV (which is just L/R)how do I get Surround Sound from TV broadcasts that do broadcast in Surround? As regards the alleged bugs in the 742, I too have seen opinions and reviews from those who have not experienced these, so I am going to proceed as if it is not endemic, and therefore a non-issue for me. As to the speakers, I am really leaning to the PSP Image 4T, due to the price and the many reviews I have read from audiophile publications. I have not been able to find anyplace to listen to them within 100 miles though! As much as I really hate to purchase speakers blind, these really seem to be an excellent match to the 742 for my budget. Their specs state the impedance to be mininmum 4 ohms and Nominal at 6 ohms. I am assuming that will be acceptable for the 742 8 ohm recommendation? Let me know if you could. So, based upon the impedance match, and unless the H/K blows me away, I 'm going to order the 742 and the Image 4Ts from DMC today. If I could beg your indulgence one more time ... DMC seems to be somewhat flexible on price when ordering multiple items, so what would your recommendations be on a reasonable center and sub to match up with the Image 4T? How does the Image 8C for the center and the Alpha Subzeroi for the sub? Thanks again Hawk. Regards and hope to hear from you soon. Boots |
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MAR | Hawk, Don't mean to be a pain in the... but one review of mirage (FX-8) said "Mirage is not the most musical of packages and can sound harsh ". My goal for the "upstairs" is music, not HT. Still stand by the rec for the Mirage over the PSB? (I still love the price, free shipping, and no extra for a stand!) BTW, I'm having 743 thoughts. NAD said that the 743 will have A/B capability (simplifying my life and connections) and is due in Dec 2003. Any other info came your way on these besides that link given elsewhere? I think you said you're waiting for a 753... Any ideas if the $699 MSRP on the 743 will be discounted a bit or if that takes a long time? |
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Hawk | Boots: Audio/Video Connections: Not a problem. You still run your digital audio cable (coax or optical) from the DVD player to the receiver. The sound connections and the video connections are two different things and I only suggest that you run the video cables directly to the monitor, while the audio cables run to the receiver. Speakers: I think you will enjoy the PSBs. I know Paul Barton was very pleased with himself on the 4T specifically, when he introduced the Image line a couple of years back. It is a very fine speaker. As for the impedence, the mention of 4 ohms is a minimum and almost all speakers reach a 4 ohm impedence minimum at some frequency. My e-mail from the NAD technical department clearly approved the 742 for a 6 ohm (nominal) speaker, so I see no reason why the 742 and the 4Ts won't work very well together. As for a matching center, the 8C will work very well with the 4Ts. However, I would wait on the sub. The 4Ts reach pretty low and I don't believe the SubZero-i goes low enough for you to really notice any improvement on the overall sound. I would recommend the Subsonic 5 or even better, the Subsonic 6 to go with the 4Ts, and as that is a noticeable jump in the cost over a SubZero, so you may need to wait. Enjoy! |
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Hawk | MAR: Hey, I enjoy hearing from you! Sorry I wasn't around yesterday, but I have been trying to finish the painting of my deck before the bad weather gets here. (I lost as freezing rain is falling right now and I am not done. Painting the railing on a deck is really slow and tedious!) I have not heard the Mirage FX-8s, but I can say that the FR-x5s are a bit brighter than your B+Ws, largely due to its metal dome tweeter, so I appreciate your concern. No, I don't stand by a rec of the Mirage over the PSBss. As I said before, I have not heard those PSBs, so I generally don't recommend anything that I haven't heard for myself. However, i have heard quite a few PSB speakers and I have heard the two speakers on either side of the 3LRs in the Image line, the 4Ts and the 2Bs, and so I tend to believe that the PSBs would sound very nice. The price is very good and it probably will sound closer to your B+Ws than will the Mirage. I got an e-mail back from NAD this morning about the 753 and 763 which indicated they are not expected into dealers until December, so I may rethink my plans here because I finally pulled together the cash to get my new receiver and I am anxious to make a move now. I think the reason the 742 was so cheap was that it was a very basic receiver, making it hard to sell against competition which have more "features" and that Saurday Audio negotiated a special deal which allowed them to offer the 742 at such an aggressive price. Now, the 743 is not going to be as basic as the 742, so I think it is unlikely we will see it priced anywhere near the price of the 742. Good luck! |
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John A. | Going back up the thread a bit, I think a T761 is a T760 (yes, Hawk, I have grown quite attached to this receiver!) but with Prologic II (no big deal since they both have EARS, excellent). Then (2002?) the T761 was replaced by the T752, still with 5 x 60 W, but probably with more bass management features such as ability to use the sub with stereo, and maybe more additional digital audio inputs. I am fairly sure the basic sound and quality of those three models are the same. All three are also specified as capable of driving 4 Ohm speakers, while the T742 states 8 Ohm. I would certainly get a T761 over the T742 if available at roughly the same price; it has more power (60W over 40W), and the speaker impedance suggests something else different at the power amp stage. They all look exactly the same and weigh a ton. However, if you want the extra features, I expect the T752 will come down in price when the T753 is introduced. For anyone who really wants to do the homework, the full specs and even user manuals for all those are available free as pdf files from the manufacturer's web site. I am pretty sure the 60W models will all sound identical with any speakers, and the T742 probably will, too, provided then that you have normal, 8 Ohm speakers of at least moderate efficiency and don't want to demolish your house. |
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MAR | Hawk- Transparent, semi-transparent, or whole body stain? Just kidding... I just stained my deck too. I'm bummed that you changed your tune on the mirage FRx5. I loved the idea of filling that room with a bit of sound for only $240 inclusive (and save the $ for the reciever upgrade). If I go to the PSB 2B I'll be at $250 or so plus $60-90 for a pair of stands plus shipping ($30-40). If you had $300 or less to buy the best sound for your B&W tastes, would you do the Mirage, some other Audioadvisor deal (KEF? Warfdale?), up the ante for the PSBs, or something else? On the NAD, I think I'm waiting on the 743 for A/B switching; Saturday Audio suggested that their price will be a reasonable amount less than the MSRP. On the deck... any thoughts or experience with outdoor speakers? I was wondering about bang for buck on Russound (www.hometech.com). |
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AdamT | I highly recommend Niles' outdoor speakers. I have a pair of OS-10s and they sound excellent for their size. Also, of the major brands I'm aware of Niles is the only one who makes weather *proof* speakers, as opposed to weather *resistant* speakers. They're rated for marine use and you can actually hose them off if they get dirty. Don't try that with your Klipsch/Boston/Bose/Mirage/etc. |
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Boots | Hawk, Thanks for the reply as always. How did the deck come out? I just did a waterseal/stain on mine a few weeks ago (cedar) Came out great! Well, I went and listened to a H/K 225 (they didn't have a 230 in stock) and I found it to be very very laid back. No punch or clarity, even through the stores top Polk speakers. I honestly thought it was no comparison to the NAD742...so that's out. Then I found a high end Hi Fi store in New London, CT. No NADs or PSBs, but was pointed to a Pioneer ELite VSX 41. I found it to be compelling, especially played through PhaseTech Teatro 7.5's and then B&W DM602.5 S3's The PhaseTech's were a bit bright though...the B&Ws a bit warmer. Their prices were very high though. The Pioneer did have all the usual bells and whistles though. How would you compare it to the T742? Barring any thoughts to look further into the Pioneer Elite, I finally found an authorized dealer for both NAD and PSB, albeit in New Jersey, (a 2 1/2 hour drive) I will be going there over Thanksgiving to give a listen, and to finally pull the trigger, hoping they will match DEF Electronics prices. Boots |
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Hawk | MAR: Man, you are making me work! LOL!!! Seriously, though, I have had some time to think about your situation and I think I have a radical solution or two. I fully understand your desire for having an inexpensive floorstanding speaker (yeah, those speaker stands really jack the final cost, don't they?), and a sound that is comparable to your B+Ws that you love so well. Go back to Audio Advisor and look at the KEF Cresta 3 floorstanding speaker which they have priced at $299.95. It has been a couple of years since I heard them, but I think it will suit you very well. I think they sound very much like a B+W 600 series speaker (most like a 600, I think) and you won't have the cost of speaker stands. They are offering free shipping for another 33 days, so that price would be your final cost, provided you don't live in Michigan. Another radical idea that I have had is to get a pair of Ascend Acoustics CM-170s for $328/pr. They are a bit more money and they are a "bookshelf" type compact monitor. However, they are really good sounding speakers and well worth twice the price. They can also be hung on the wall. Check them out at www.ascendacoustics.com. |
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Hawk | Boots: No comparison. Your experience with the H/K mirrors my own--When I compared the H/K with the NAD 742, the 742 simply blew the others away, soundwise. It is more dynamic, cleaner, clearer, and engaging than any other receiver I have heard for under $900. The Pioneer Elite 41 is a bit of an odd duckling in the Elite line. From what I remember (I looked at this last spring so it has been awhile), it doesn't have most of the things that make a Pioneer Elite a Pioneer Elite. The DSP and DACs are the same used in the normal Pioneer 912, and not like what is used in the Elite 43 and up. I also questioned its power supply, which is smaller than the one used on the 43 and up. I think there are some good parts in that receiver--but on whole I didn't really like it. It certainly helped to be auditioned with the B+W 602.5s--a really fine speaker. If you really like the Elite, I recommend you step up to the 43--I think it is worth it. I don't know the Phase Tech Teatros, so I appreciated your thoughts. I have two Phase Tech subs, but I haven't heard their speakers for about ten years (no dealer near me, now). Good luck! |
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MAR | Hawk, Aargh. Just called to close on the KEFs after reading what I could find and the last pair is gone! I was going to go to the Mirage Frx-5 but I'm not sure if they're the best second choice. Still concerned about the "good for HT, not as good for music" reputation. I'll read about the Ascend monitors but they're a bit more than I wanted to spend. I think some of the PSBs can be wall mounted. Any other thoughts as I muddle through in search of the holy grail of a cheap B&W alternative? |
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Boots | Hawk (and others) Drove down to New Jersey yesterday (3 hours in the rain)just to listen to the NADT742 with the PSB Image 4Ts. At first I was not impressed compared to the DefTech BP6, Paradigm Esprit, and PhaseTech Teatros...then the guy said,"whoops, those are not the Image 4T but the Alpha Ts!!!" He then hooked up the Image 4Ts and they sounded really good! But wait, I see they have a pair of the Image 5Ts in the demo room, so I ask to compare...I was very impressed!!! With the 6.5" woofers as compared to the 5.25" on the 4Ts, there was definitely a better bass response....but they had more prescence and fuller mid range (I thought) They agreed to sell me the 5Ts at $130 more a pair than the 4Ts, so I finally did it!!!!!!!!! I bought the T742, a pair of the PSB Image 5Ts, a PSB Image 8c center speaker, and the PSB Alpha Sub sonic 5i sub woofer! Got home late last night, so will start to set everything up tonite after work, and hopefully have everything up and running by tomorrow night! I'll post my impressions then. Thanks to Hawk and everyone else for all their patience, help, wisdom and insight! Boots |
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Boots | Just an addendum to the above post, when I listened to the NAD T742 and the Image 4 & 5 Ts, I brought along a cd ...Rickie Lee Jones, "Flying Cowboys" The first cut, "The Horses" sounded amazing! ...like I never really heard the tune before! Boots |
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Hawk | Boots: I am sorry that you had to drive so far, but I am very glad you got such a great system. I must say that that is a very impressive setup. Congrats and Enjoy! |
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Boots | Hawk, Finally got the system set up, and all I can say is "holy sh-t" The whole rig sounds even better than it did in the showroom! Even in plain Stereo mode (with sub turned off) the 5Ts put out nice bass, and great mids. The clarity and prescence is amazing! Once again, listening to Rickie Lee Jones "Flying Cowboys" is such a treat. The production values on the cd come out incredibly! As reported here, even in Stereo mode, I had to put my ear up to the center speaker to ensure it wasn't on, as the stereo effect was so good! One can see how the results of the painstaking work put in by studio engineers and producers in making an album, can be lost in lesser systems. So many of the intricate nuances of the mix are lost. Then I put in the DVD of Steely Dan "Two against Nature" Once again, blown away! The drummer was right here in the living room! In DTS mode, the surround was amazing ...background vocals coming from the rear, and then there's the sliding notes of the slide trombone in the left rear! Everything was so clear and concise, but not brittle at all...easy to listen to! I detect none of the reported "bugs", except for the mili-second delay at the start of a CD. Don't understand why, as the 742 recognized the cd player as digital (connected with digital optical cable) There is no "thumping" or other noise when switching DTS modes, nor when turning the unit on or off. The unit has plenty of power (at least for me) For CDs, listening at +10 (volume goes to +18) is deafening! On to a movie...I rented the first Lord of the Rings, and it was amazing! The sub was not up that loud, yet it rattled my windows in the battle sequences! Thus far, the only complaint I have is the shortage of digital inputs. My DVD digital audio out is Optical, so that's good. The CD player is also Optical, so that goes into the SAT digital optical in, but my HD Comcast cable box also has Optical out for the digital audio, and the 742 only has 2. The other digital audio in's are Coax. (No Digital audio coax out on the cable box ) Is there such a thing as an Optical splitter (A/B box)? So, I'll live with the RCA audio ouputs for the TV...still sounds good. Overall, I am extremely pleased with the NAD T742, PSB Image 5Ts, 8C center and Subsonic 5i! Thanks so much for everyones help! Oh and BTW, the store (SoundCity in Denville, NJ) matched the best prices I found on the net (SaturdayAudio and DMC-Electronics) so it was a pretty good deal. Had to pay tax, but no shipping. Off to more ecstatic listening! Boots |
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John A. | I enjoyed that post, Boots. Congratulations! |
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MAR | Hawk, Just a note to let you know that I found another offer for the KEF Cresta 3 at $275 plus shipping and I snapped it up. On initial listen they sounded a bit flat overall but with a little warming up they sound quite nice with my current Denon. The high end is a bit brighter than the B&W 601s and the mid is a little less distinct but the bass is fuller than the B&Ws without their subwoofer support. They sound really quite wonderful for the price and fit the bill nicely. Female vocals sound particularly pleasing. Thanks for the guidance. I look forward to hearing the pair of Cresta3 and the B&W's in the main room with an NAD473 when it comes out. |
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Hawk | MAR: I am really glad you found them! I was at my wit's end trying to find something for you! Enjoy! |
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| McIntosh vs. NAD receivers? I'm trying to do a bit of 'due diligence' on the Home Theater scene, but am having a great deal of trouble finding 'unbiased' sources to talk to. I located and went to a dealer that carried both McIntosh and Marantz, but he simply would not venture an opinion of how they compared, nor would he hook up both systems to allow me to listen to a live comparison - perhaps I should have worn more expensive attire! But to cut to the chase, I'm trying to get a feel for how much bang for the buck you get when you jump from NAD to McIntosh receivers. From what I've been able to gather both NAD and Arcam are a big jump up from Dennon and are a much better value for the dollar, but how about going from NAD to McIntosh? (I'd have started a new thread for this, but for the life of me I can't find the 'Post New Message' option!) As of one month ago I'd never heard of NAD, Arcam, OR McIntosh, and was under the impression that the likes of Yamaha constituted the high end of high end audio. Thus any feedback on comparing some of the higher quality brands, as well as thoughts on value for what you get, would be greatly appreciated. |
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Hawk | Charles: Wow, what a huge jump going from NAD to McIntosh! Even at full price, the NAD 762 is only $1299 and the McIntosh is about $4K. You cannot go wrong with McIntosh--they build stuff that I swear would withstand nuclear war. The McIntosh is warmer sounding (uses tubes). You really need to listen to a McIntosh to see if you like the sound. Not everyone likes the sound of tubes, but others will give their right arm to have that sound. We often talk on this forum of one amp sounding warmer than another, such as an NAD sounds warmer than, say a Yamaha. But all solid state amps sound cooler than tubes. You should be sure than you would like a McIntosh sound before you invest that kind of money. NAD is very good champaign for those of us wth a beer budget. From reading their website, they claim to have a philosophy of getting their products to the point where a 10% increase in performance will cost ten times as much. I am not sure how such a thing can be quantified, but they clearly look upon themselves as a value brand. McIntosh, however, is a no-holds barred, best product possible, type of brand. I think NAD would readily concede that McIntosh is a better product, but whether it is worth the increase in price is where they would make their argument. |
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| Thanks, Hawk! If I knew a brand in between NAD and McIntosh I'd have listed that in my previous post as well - any recommendations for in a level between NAD and McIntosh? I'm sad to report that I'm seeking this advice on behalf of my brother who's budget is a bit less constrained than mine. My own receiver is an Onkyo TX SR600... I got it on clearance, and it still maxed out my budget! |
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G.DawG | Charles, A receiver that would be between the NAD and Mac would be a Pioneer 49tx or txi available around $2500 Very nice receiver IMHO. I would say that the 49 would probably beat the 762 in a head to head competition, but the NAD would definitly give it a run for its money! Hawk, what would your opinion on the 49 be? Have you ever heard the 49? I am curious, do you think the 762 could beat a 49 in a one on one? If I ever did buy a new receiver (my next system will probably be seperates)it would be the 49TXi/59TXi. G.DawG |
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New member Username: DmeisterPost Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 | NAD and Arcam really aren't in the same price range, though their receivers are very similar. Arcam uses a better transformer (toroidal) on their lower model than NAD does, but I don't know that this will justify the extra $$$ over the NAD. A better comparison would be NAD and Rotel. You quickly start to see the effects of the law of diminishing returns when you step up from something like a Rotel or NAD to a McIntosh. If you have a lot of money lying around, sure, why not throw in 200% or 300% more to get a 10% or 20% increase in performance. That's one of the luxuries of being wealthy, I imagine. Also, if you ever plan to spend over $2,500 on a receiver, I think it would be silly not buy separates, whether from Rotel, NAD, Outlaw or whomever. In the $2,500 to $4,500 range, separates will generally out-perform receivers in the same price range, though some receivers have a few more "bells and whistles" because of the particular market they target. In the sub $1k market, I suspect that the new NAD 753 will be a hard piece of gear to beat, assuming NAD has worked out its previous quality issues. dmeister |
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