Image Speakers

Kirk M Silver Member Username: I_am_kirk Post Number: 117 Registered: May-08	Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 18:40 GMT I recently acquired some of these for free. From looking at pictures and such it seems like they are Compact 100's or something like that. Bookshelf speakers with soft dome tweeter (foam almost) with a 5inch woofer with some kind of stitching around it or something. Has anyone heard of/heard this brand. it says made in Canada, but I can't find a ton about them. Looks like they may have been absorbed into another company. Said to be like Mirage or Athena or something and bought up by a company called API? I don't have much of a budget so I am just comparing them to my Klipsch RF10's (first any only half decent speakers). On another note, can anyone explain some sound differences I might hear between this softer tweeter vs horn. I am not a trained listener or even really good at critical listening, but I am interested none the less.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14140 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 20:53 GMT . Domes have wide dispersion and horns have narrow, more focused dispersion. This can affect how the speakers work with the room in that one system has more early reflections arriving at your ear than the other system will. This assumes both speakers are set up properly in the room and not just plunked down where the other one goes or where they fit. Other than that, if they are both seeking musical value, you shouldn't hear any difference between them. That's unlikely in this case. The Klipsch are undoubtedly more able to play loud at the same volume setting. You need to compare speakers at the same volume level in the room. This means adjusting the volume control until there is no difference in perceived volume when you switch between the two systems. If one system is even 1dB louder than the other, there's a 99:1 chance you'll prefer the louder speaker rather than the better speaker. .
Kirk M Silver Member Username: I_am_kirk Post Number: 118 Registered: May-08	Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 21:43 GMT Is toe in good for horns, if I have a single sitting position? Certain distance apart recommended? Right now I have the two speakers slightly toed and about 5-6 feet apart. There are 2 couches about a foot in front of them, but none of this can move. Sort of why I toed them in a bit towards my seat. It sort of sounded like the drums and everything were pushed forward a bit (closer to me - horns i guess?). Is that the imaging difference? I find it hard to compare them because of the horns properties.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14141 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 23:13 GMT . Toe in is trading off one thing for another, you have to decide which "thing" you prefer. I would suggest you place "loudspeaker set up" in a search engine and do some reading, there are several approaches to speaker set up all of which arrive at different results depending on your auditory preferences and the constrictions of your room. However, there is a science to set up and ignoring it means you waste a lot of time with less than great sound because you didn't have a plan in mind or you plunked the speakers where they fit (or sometimes where they don't fit). Did I read it right that the speakers fire into the back of two sofas? That's definitely not in the standard speaker set up procedure. That's why you toed the speakers in toward your seating position? To achieve what result? What do you mean "everything got pushed forward - horns I guess"? Things probably got pushed forward because the speakers are working into the rear of two sofas and the frequency response is on a roller coaster ride of ups and downs and scattered reflections bouncing around the room. But, yes, the Klipsch are more "in your face" than most other speakers. Either that says "live music" to you or it doesn't. The idea is generally to have a frequency balance that is comensurate with the preceived seating position you prefer, IOW, brightness comes when you are sitting closer to the instruments. Sound looses a bit of its high frequency energy and becomes slightly more diffuse as you move further back in the audience and the room sound provides more contribution to the overall effect. Middle of the house seating doesn't sound like recordings where the mic is 1/4" from the vocalist's mouth, the electric guitar is plugged directly into the mixing board and the engineer put 12 microphones just on the drum set. Speakers that provide a front row frequency balance with middle of the auditorium spatial clues are out of whack and either need to be replaced or their set up needs tweaking. Likewise for speakers that have a front of house, close to the performers presentation with a slightly rolled off high frequency content. Middle of the house doesn't loose impact, spatial clues or clarity but simply sounds less like you are hearing primarily the output of the instruments. On your best recordings you should have some sense of the performers being in the room in that their voices should sound very much like someone standing in your room or at least in "a" room and your position away from them is where you would normally sit at a concert. At least that's how I set up speakers and I concentrate primarily on the midrange first. Ideally, what you are after is a presentation that provides clues similar to what you hear in a live performance. Of course, if all the concerts you listen to are electroncially amplified instruments played through a hanging sound system with a dozen drivers and the recordings are all close mic'd studio creations with overdubs and fake reverb with drums as big as the room, then you'll have to use other clues to decide which speaker's sound you prefer. Hopefully, you have some idea of what "sound" you are listening for and not just making decisions based on which speaker sounds good on this or that track of this or that recording. Go for consistency across as many good recordings as you can and hope for the ability to find the music in all recordings. You shouldn't get to the point where you are listening only to a few tracks on a disc just because they are the ones that make your speakers sound good. Do you listen to live music in a club or hall? Not "live recordings" but actual musicians playing in the same room with you. Is the music always amplified? Do you know what a piano or saxophone sounds like when it is not amplified? "Imaging difference"? I'm not thinking most speakers image well when they have two sofas in front of them. If speaker position is fixed by the room, I wouldn't be too concerned about "imaging". IMO "imaging" is overrated if the recordings you listen to are made to work by the engineer manipulating the pan pots and reverb knobs and each performer is in a separate isolation both. Get the speakers to sound their best top to bottom and let the rest take care of itself. I would focus on the vocals and get those right, if the mids are good, the rest is probably able to follow. What properties of the horns are making comparisons difficult? .
Kirk M Silver Member Username: I_am_kirk Post Number: 119 Registered: May-08	Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 23:27 GMT The room is about 20feet long by 10feet wide i'd say. Long sofa on the left wall, sofa chair on the right wall and then the speakers on the short wall. So the speakers aren't firing directly into the sofa, but I guess you could say the edge of the chair/sofa are in the peripheral area in front of the speaker. I imagine this isn't optimal at all, but really the only thing I could do is move the speakers closer together a bit. ---------------------------- S S --- ---- C \| \|C o \| \|h u \| ---- c h ME This is my autocad drawing of the setup. :D 3 peice set of furniture, but this is basically the only way it fits in the room.
Kirk M Silver Member Username: I_am_kirk Post Number: 120 Registered: May-08	Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 23:37 GMT Hm spacing messed up. Attached image is rough idea. What am I losing by this placement. Sound wise. How will it affect the sound. I am guessing some of the sound output is hitting the couch, but where will I hear that problem in the music I listen to. This is my most basic problem to begin with lol.
P Galbraith Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith Canada Post Number: 2235 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 01:44 GMT Kirk, It is worth trying the Klipsch on the long wall, i.e. rotate your setup by 45 degrees. More toe-in is often beneficial on horn speakers, as much as point ting straight at you, and as much as 45 deg. So try progressively greater toe-in and don't be afraid to try extremes.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14144 Registered: May-04	Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 03:44 GMT . Read the set up procedures you'll find on the web. There are disagreements as to long or short wall placement with both having benefits and disadvantages. I tend to prefer placing speakers on the short wall and bringing them further into the room. With horn loaded high frequency drivers there isn't much energy bouncing off the side wall to begin with which is a major advantage of long wall placement. With domes, should you settle on those speakers, it is merely a function of proper placement and possibly taming the early reflections from the speaker to the nearest wall. The sofa's themself shouldn't be a tremendous problem in that position, I thought you meant the speakers were firing directly into the back of the sofa. What are the covering fabrics on each sofa? Leather is very reflective while cloth is more absorptive, both will give very different results in the room sound. Mix them and you'll have to deal with the frequency response errors each surface creates. Your seating position, if correctly laid out on this screen, is not doing you any favors. Just read the set up procedures and then we'll talk. You ignored my questions about listening to live music. .
Kirk M Silver Member Username: I_am_kirk Post Number: 121 Registered: May-08	Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 23:03 GMT I just go to a ton of concerts in bars and arenas. I've seen a few intimate shows but not more than a couple. I listen to things from jazz to heavy metal but I don't see many jazz shows really. It's more rock shows, and occasional acoustic shows.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14146 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 21:29 GMT . If that's the case, explain a bit about how you choose what's the better speaker. No "tight bass" and "clear mids" but instead outline what values you employ to say, "This is what I want", or, "This is more enjoyable than that because ..." In what way would it be more enjoyable and what about it would be what you want? Have you thought that far ahead? Do you have goals for what your music should be? For what your system should and should not do? Can you describe the "best" system you've heard so far? What about the sound was appealing and what components were used? .
Kirk M Silver Member Username: I_am_kirk Post Number: 122 Registered: May-08	Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 15:49 GMT That's kind of what I am exploring. My first speakers (The Klipsch) were bought about 4 years ago, and I didn't have a ton of choice at the local shop. I also didn't really know much about the whole process or what I liked. Best system i've heard was the one that was running ayre components and Martin Logan CLX speakers. I was astounded by how much the bass shone through (I think the guy put on a jazz record). You could hear the guy plucking at the bass, you couldn't tell if it was closer to the left or right speakers, It just felt like it was coming in from a stage in front of you. The music itself wasn't something I was particularly enjoying, but it still gave me a decent idea of something well above what I own. Most of the places I stop into I don't have cd's or anything so I tend to hear female jazz cd's or something that I find sort of boring. Are female singers something particularly hard for speakers to get right? I just noticed that was what a large majority of store owners would throw on. As for what I want in a speaker, I think the main thing for me is to find something flexible. I listen to music fairly loud most of the time (but not always). I'll throw on some hip hop for some bass, or some heavy metal at fairly loud volumes. I'll listen to acoustic or post-rock (basically just a sort of cinematic rock I guess) at moderate volumes. Frank mentioned that lots of rock music falls into a certain frequency range. I said something about loving a nice thick kick drum sound (for metal and some heavier rock music in particular). I also get into a decent amount of music like Battles (for anyone that's heard of them). I like to hear a separation in the instruments so you can kind of pick out various aspects as they flow together. Drumming is important in a lot of the music I listen to. That is one common theme among the music I like (outside of electronic music). I like to be able to feel the kick drums (like if you were in a small bar at a rock show). I like the detail of the Klipsch speakers I have. My brother owns some Paradigm Studio 20's and we tried them at my place a couple times. They were likely under driven a bit, but their sound was too relaxed for me. They sounded very good on acoustic and jazz music, but if I wanted crank them up they didn't really give me the same feeling. My brother listens at lower volumes and typically watches more movies. Another aspect of the music I love is when the players lock into a groove. The Klipsch give me an excellent detail on highs. Perhaps too much so because at the volumes I listen at over extended periods of time I find that I can get headaches with the Klipsch (which i've heard is common). A lot of the time I speak with dealers when I mention the kinds of music I am interested in they shy away from what they initially recommend. For example, my recent visit to the store had me listening to some Totem arros. I loved the big sound they produced on the Feist album the guy threw on. The sound seemed so much more refined and the bass didn't sound as muddled or lost in the mix as it did on my speakers. Unfortunately the Arros weren't exactly meant for loud metal or rock (according to the dealer). He said acoustic and jazz excelled on them. I was still interested in that Totem sound I heard though and I loved the fact that they were made in Canada. I think my trouble comes in translating what I like in the music to what sorts of speakers i'd be looking at. Like how to narrow down speakers that can handle dynamic music (quiet to loud, single guitar into mess of guitars) and also a range of music styles. That's kind of what I was hoping for with this thread, as it evolves. I think you (Jan) have already caught onto where I am currently at.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14147 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 22:11 GMT . "Cinematic rock"?! Ok, from what I hear on the web that's heavily congealed musically. Very dense orchestration and musical lines that are difficult to separate in many cases. Not easy stuff for lower priced systems to get right. Feist? Should be good demo material. My first advice would be to continue with the placement of the speakers you own. Get the best out of whatever you have and you'll be in a much better position to determine what it is about the music that is making a connection and what is not, what needs to be upgraded or replaced and what does not. This extends to the entire system, set up and accessories are important if you're improving the music. Cables? They can be important but need not be expensive and should never be used as BandAids to cover up problems in the system or the room. You haven't mentioned the rest of your system. What components are you pairing with these speakers? What are your realistic plans as of right now? Is this a system that will grow or are you staying pretty much with your present set up for a while? I'm going to assume what you're telling me here is you aren't that familiar with the sound of unamplified instruments. While I would encourage you to become more familiar with those sounds and how they fill a room and interact, I realize that has become rather impossible for most modern venues. Most clubs of any size employ a reinforcement system and it is often not that high in quality. Despite that restriction it's important you latch onto a few key elements that you find of value in your overall assessment of the music a system reproduces. IMO, the impact of a kickdrum isn't quite enough to work with in this way. If you were to concentrate on the difference between the impact of a kick drum and the impact of a snare and a hi hat played simultaneously, that would move you a bit further toward understanding what a total package sounds like. If you're listening to acoustic music, the sound of a Martin guitar is quite different than that of a Taylor or Gibson. I would warn you though that what the performer uses on stage might not be the instrument they use for recording. Big Martin Dreadnoughts and Gibson Jumbos are notoriously difficult to record and many studios prefer to use a more studio friendly instrument. On the other hand a guitar is wood and steel in most of the music you'll hear and that is a sound you should know well. Strats, Les Pauls and archtops are still the common electrics used and they do not sound like one another nor are they commonly found mixing in all styles of music. Jazz/indie is archtop territory and metal is where solidbodies reside. Knowing when a system gets these things right won't guarantee a great speaker but it will allow you to scratch a few priorities off your checklist. Why do most shops use female vocals as demo material? For several reasons, one is they are selling primarily to a male audience. Secondly, a female voice sits right at the point where any multi-way speaker system breaks up the distribution of frequencies between drivers of disparate size, material composition and in a few instances even the technology of a moving coil woofer mixed with a ribbon or similar high frequency driver. The laws of physics make this a difficult task to perform well, too often within the range of a female voice one driver beams while another is at its widest dispersion or the disparity in materials gives way to a hollow, muffled or nasal quality that isn't in what you hear day to day. It's worth mentioning that many "audiophile" speakers aren't meant for metal but excel at acoustic and jazz. Restricting your material as a designer will make it simpler to build a system that works well. You shouldn''t let your system determine what music you listen to but that's what happens with many audiophiles as they listen to music that makes their system sound good. Personally, I know I'm not a fan of metal or hip hop and I don't care to listen at high levels so my priorities are built around the music I enjoy in the situations I prefer. YMMV For one thing not many audiophile oriented speakers are meant to play as loudly as most metal fans would like so there's substantial trade offs to be made there and they only lessen when your budget expands. On the other hand too many speakers that can produce the SPL's required for metal have made their trade offs with the opinion most buyers would rather have the volume and will forgo - at least in the showroom - the nuances of, as you say, "flexibility". This makes it all the more important for you to make your list of priorities that you always desire to have and to establish a mental list of what you can live without in reproduction on a budget. I take it from what you say about the Arros and their reputation for being a highly musical system you are at least somewhat cognizant of the fact that speakers do not require a certain number of drivers (three or four way) or drivers of a given size (12 or 15" woofers) to sound musical. I'm not sure what Frank meant with his comment but the low frequency limit on 90% of modern rock/blues/jazz/metal etc. is around 40Hz which is within reach of most speakers once they're placed in a room and they get some assistance from boundary induced room gain. Above all else you should realize the difference between more bass and more accurate bass. "More bass" is not a bad thing but trading more for lower quality is IMO. Certainly on a budget the lowest octaves are often the first any salesperson or designer would suggest you give up as they can be supplemented with a half way decent subwoofer when the budget permits. If the low frequency driver is working hard to reproduce low bass at high volume, it's probably not doing it's best through the rest of its range. Take the burden off the driver and use a subwoofer if you're working at less than "I don't give a d@mn about price" budgets. This also gives you the advantage of placing the subwoofer and the main speakers independently of each other to get the best of both systems rather than making one "full range" speaker trade off what sounds best in the lowest octaves with what works best for the other eight octaves. I can't really tell you there are ways to narrow down which speakers will handle dynamic range or complexity of the music. Technically, the more drivers in a system, the more capable of such qualities the speaker becomes. However, it is far more complicated and more expensive to make a mediocre three way than it is to make a very good two way and, if you were really dedicated to the idea more is always better, you'd have four, five or six way speakers. Know that every time you add another driver to the system you've also added multiple trade offs, complexity and coherence that tend to work against the music. Many of the typical trade offs we've come to accept as the way things work and many of them drive some of us crazy because they make the music less and less lifelike and more and more "hifi" or mechanical. On a budget a very well executed two way has become the defacto standard for the audiophile speaker market. I use single driver speakers for my main system and multi-way speakers can drive me out of the room when they're not done well because they suck the life out of the music in favor of things I do not value. And that's where you have to end up in the audiophile world, with "lifelike" music. I can't tell you how to get there since your priorities are probably not my priorities. But you would be ahead of the game in that you do listen to live music from what you say. Back to female vocals, most of us recognize when a voice sounds right and when it does not. Use your best recordings to detect which system is giving you the truth here, any vocal has to be processed through a microphone which colors the qualities of a voice but you'll soon get an idea which speakers get vocals right and which do not. Don't listen for the voice you hear in the clubs through a sound reinforcement system but listen for the voice you hear performing, not an easy distinction but one you should come to know. Build from the middle outward as your budget allows has always been good advice IMO. Listen to the music with a more analytical ear when you go hear live performances. Forget about "imaging" and "soundstaging" for now, they are mostly artifacts of the recording process in the music you listen to and the creation of an "image" or "soundstage" is dependent on the desires and skills of the recording engineer and producer. Concentrate on what it is about live music that involves you, what draws you in and what leaves you flat. Forget about what sounds cooooool on your system and pay attention to what makes you like music. In Western (as opposed to Eastern or Oriental) music the elements of construction are all the same and the way performers work together is much the same no matter whether you're listening to metal, jazz or classical. A Spanish or Middle Eastern sounding composition played on Western instruments is still relying on how Western music works just as a mysterious, comical or "folksy" sound would so IMO knowing a little about music won't hurt anyone. You don't need the ability to recognize perfect fourths being played but you will probably enjoy the music more if you know what a I-IV-V chord progression amounts to. If you don't know, ask the performers in the clubs, most of them are happy to talk about what they do. Spend some time thinking about what exactly makes you prefer a certain sound or the way a group operates. Don't miss the music but make those mental notes that you compare between one club and the next. Figure out why you like the music and not, "I want a speaker with tight bass." Understand? If what you desire most comes in a package that doesn't play as loud as another, you'll have to make a decision about what is the more important quality for your priorities. If you decide on SPL's, there will be other trade offs that come with that. IMO the important thing is you make a connection with the music whether that's through the nuance or through the SPL's. That's the way priorities work, each set belongs to every single individual and you make up your list based on what you hear. That doesn't imply that your brain can be disengaged and your ears are all you rely on. Think about what it is you are hearing in the music and start to become more consistent in your observations. Then apply those observations to your system. Don't assume you know what music sounds like or that someone else can tell you their priorities, find out for yourself. Now start thinking about your list of must have's and can do without's as you work with your speakers in your room. If you've read the information on speaker set up, you'll have an idea what each set up procedure is going to get you. Apply one or a mixture of procedures and listen to how the music changes as you position the speakers and yourself within the room. Consistency of those priorities is in my opinion most important, you'll probably add and subtract as you go along but keeping a core of what says "music" to your brain is what will get you the most for the least amount of money and effort. .
Kirk M Silver Member Username: I_am_kirk Post Number: 123 Registered: May-08	Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 22:33 GMT I'll get the gear bit out of the way now. I am going to read up on some more speaker placement stuff and go over the rest of your post a bit more carefully. I currently run the Klipsch RF10's with a Yamaha Rxv459. I have a Paradigm DSP3100 sub. My source is a Linux computer with MPD and I run it through a Super Pro 707 USB Dac. When i bought the speakers/receiver initially I didn't know as much about it so I ended up with the Yamaha. I've kind of moved away from movies/tv being any sort of priority as well as forgetting multi channel setups. I love the sound and idea of a 2 channel system (I guess 2.1 as I'll likely always want a sub given my lower budget for a few years). I don't have the money to make any changes, but I'm just trying to understand what i'd like to move towards someday, as there are things about my setup I don't particularly care for (I would love for the 6 channel receiver to just be a simple integrated amp, or even separates perhaps, one day).
David Mitchell Gold Member Username: Dmitchell Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3192 Registered: Feb-07	Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 23:09 GMT Did your Linux box recognize the Super Pro when you plugged it in? I haven't used Linux in years, but I remember way back when there was very little support for USB devices.
Kirk M Silver Member Username: I_am_kirk Post Number: 124 Registered: May-08	Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 23:52 GMT it's recognized it easily. I've tried Linux Mint, Ubuntu, Fedora and Debian and it worked on all of the newest kernels. I'm using the MPD daemon program and you have to edit config files for it so I'm not sure if it works for normal programs but I imagine it would. It shows up under aplay -l as soon as you plug it in. Linux has really hit it's stride recently. I remember back to red hat (not even that far back - 5 years maybe) and I couldn't get wireless working, or anything hardly. Now a days it's a relative (if you're computer literate) breeze.

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