No compromise DJ speakers

budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 608 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 13:01 GMT i'm looking to acquire 4 speakers for a mobile DJ rig. i am NOT looking for DJ speakers! i despise horns and ports with a passion. i'll only do acoustic suspension or planar. at the moment, i'm considering building 4x 2 ways with a pair of 6 1/2" Goldwood GW-S650 4 ohm speakers in series for 93dB with a Dayton DC25TS-8 1" titanium dome tweeter in sealed boxes as i'll also be running 4 x 12" subs with a high power amp. i'll be driving the 4 mains with 100 watts per channel. i'm NOT looking for maximum SPL although SPL is a priority. i DESPISE the crappy sound of PA speakers with their sloppy bass, muddled midrange and spitty horn treble. i'd like to build the best COST EFFECTIVE system i can with satellites than can take 100w continuous without complaint at whatever SPL they can put out in a roughly 20 foot square area with speakers in each corner. if i BUILD the satellites i'm considering, i should get about 92dB with enough headroom to take 10o watts easily. i'd considered purchasing $150pr energy 2 ways rated at 125w but was disuaded by audio advisor. i've pushed my smaller 86dB efficient mission M71s with just 5 1/4" woofers hard and liked how little they complained when driven hard and those are only rated at 75w!!! the energy 2 ways i considered were rated to 125w with higher efficiency. i already tried ALLEGEDLY 93dB efficient 6 1/2" pyle outdoor speakers that were no louder than my 89dB NHT superzeros and actually had LESS bass, not that bass is an issue as i'll run the satellites in "small" mode on my receiver. if i BUILD the speakers i'm planning on, the cabinets will cost me $150 for 4, $72 for the tweeters and $120 for the woofers not counting x-over parts etc. if i DO build that system, i considered using higher x-over frequencies like 3.5kHz to move more air in the midrange even if it sacrifices some speed and clarity. they'd STILL sound better than 12"+ ported woofers! i'm here to ask if anyone knows of a more cost effective "off the shelf" solution using bookshelf speakers that can take being driven with 100w for 8 hours at a time OR for opinions on crossover frequencies. DON'T use the words horn tweeter, large high efficiency drivers, or ports because i don't want to hear it! i'll take 90 CLEAN dB over 110 crap dB every time! just like the music i chose to play, i don't want a sound system that offends my ears. i want to do the exact opposite of what every other DJ does that offends my ears. with all that out of the way, does anyone have any ideas on high end & high SPL on the cheap? i can't seem to find any 200w rated bookshelves at realistic prices any place i've looked. honestly, i'd be happy with a 2nd pair of missions. all 4 speakers have to match visually. PS tower speakers are out of the question too as i want speakers that are easy to lift up on stands that would put tweeters over the crowd's heads. AGAIN... do not recommend i compromise SQ with any EVIL high efficiency shortcuts. (horns & ports) as i despise both. i WOULD be willing to compromise with ported bookshelf speakers that would be cheaper than my DIY plan that can handle the same power input though. oh yeah... i don't do rot prone foam either. if i find my DJing catches on, i'll upgrade with better components down the road, but for now, i just want to be "gig ready" with the best sound that won't break my wallet. it's POINTLESS to invest thousands of dollars if i don't get any work, and here in oregon, "funky & upbeat" seem to be "abominations". LOL i'm out to topple that soulless void one brick at a time. many thanks in advance to anyone that can offer a better solution for my VERY particular problem.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14114 Registered: May-04	Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 15:54 GMT . Your expectations for what DJ equipment should do are out of line with what DJ equipment must do. I'm sure you'll reject the idea just as you've already rejected every logical concept about your expectations vs real world requirements but consider why DJ equipment consists of the products is does. Acoustic suspension enclosures, planars and dome tweeters are not suited to DJ work. Read that sentence again. Therefore, they are do not exist in the DJ products for good reason. You might not like the sound the average DJ products produce but turning to "audiophile" components is as dumb as running a stock Civic in NASCAR. I have to say I find your entire post to be so poorly thought out I can't imagine how you came up with this idea other than you haven't cared for what you've heard so far from DJ equipment. The conclusion then that you can compete by using that stock Civic with a dome tweeter is absurd. Just as an example consider the environment DJ and audiophile speakers are designed to occupy. Which environment will your anti-DJ speakers have to work into? A thoughtful, real world answer to that question should tell you enough to decide what you've suggested is BS. Rethink this entire proposition down to the ridiculous belief that $150 pr. Energy two ways would be even remotely appropriate for what you intend to do. Forget wattage ratings in the speakers. Forget 100 watts for 8 hours. And forget asking about crossover frequencies for a non-existent product. Just that you mention this tells those who have done this before how woefully misguided your thinking is. Call PartsExpress and Madisound and discuss your intentions with them. Don't hang up when they explain to you why horns and ports dominate the DJ market, you'll only be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Also, do not think you can "wow" the DJ world on a budget. Forget everything you've decided to do and start over listening to what is required to do the job well. .
leo stierer Silver Member Username: Magfan USA Post Number: 560 Registered: Oct-07	Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 16:09 GMT I'd skip the panel part of your idea. Finicky setup and vulnerable to some drunk bumping them. Usually fairly low sensitivity so power is an issue, though a 'd' amp may be both light enough and provide enough power. Durability of such a combination? ?able. A hi-fi DJ? Bring good sound 'to the masses?' Last wedding I attended, as the photographer, the DJ was nearly lynched by the attendees due to 1.too loud 2.not sensitive to music requests 3.overbearing attitude.
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 610 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 01:24 GMT i'm not looking to bring good sound "to the masses", just small parties. and to MY ears... PA speakers aren't suited for ANYTHING because they sound like total crap. i DESPISE their sound. you don't need 1,000 watts to "rock a party" either. i went to a high school gym dance where the sound system was just a pair of 3 ways & a technics receiver and went to an even more modest college party where the sound system was just a pair of bookshelf speakers. 110dB is more than loud enough for any party i'd spin. like i said, i refuse to play music that offends my ears or use gear that does either. the only thing PA speakers are good for is setting them on fire. BTW... i've heard car systems do club level volume many times with LESS power and speaker than i'm planning on eg. 5 1/4" coaxials and a pair of 12" subs. for bass, i'll be using 4x 12" series/parallel with a 500w class D sub amp.
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 611 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 01:38 GMT again JV.. you totally missed my point... i said straight out that i don't care about ultimate SPL. i don't want to ruin my hearing either. i'm looking to fill a niche that no other DJ will, play UPBEAT & funky tunes unlike also those cookie cutter techno and wanna be gangsta HACKS that wouldn't know funky if they watched 100 other DJs tripping over it AND with acceptable sound quality... bass that THUMPS, not booms. i've gotten very good SPL out of my little 86dB efficient 5 1/4" missions in stereo. 6 more decibels with twice the number of speakers and much more surface area in the midrange wouldn't hurt either. i'd rather DJ more laid back ADULT gigs anyways where people don't care to ruin their hearing. another reason PA speakers suck is that they're rarely elevated over the crowds' heads, so if you're just 10 feet from the speakers, everything is muffled. you can argue with me until you're blue in the face, but i REFUSE to be a cookie cutter DJ. i hate EVERYTHING that stands for. i don't want anything to do with crap sound. louder is NOT better. no way...no how. the next thing you'll do is justify fidiots who push their car stereo amps into clipping with their trunks buzzing for a few extra dB. shudder BTW... i NEVER push my home system's volume louder than conversational level. i'm not into loud.
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 612 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 01:46 GMT i wouldn't do a wedding gig. i'll ONLY do gigs where people actively WANT a DIFFERENT FLAVOR. i'd refuse to play ANY gig where someone wants me to play heavy metal, gangsta, industrial, & country etc. if taking a radical stance against hideous music & sound quality never gets me any gigs... so be it. for what it's worth, all of the ADULTS i've given demos with everything from world beat to new wave on them loved most if not all of the tracks. to me, the SINGLE most EVIL saying in the english language is "go with the flow" that ain't EVER gonna happen with me! LOL BTW... light weight gear IS a priority of mine. i have back problems.
leo stierer Silver Member Username: Magfan USA Post Number: 564 Registered: Oct-07	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 01:51 GMT Budge, What's it gonna be? louder is NOT better. no way...no how OR 110dB is more than loud enough for any party i'd spin. Please check this link if you don't think 110db is pretty darn loud! http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/acoustic_IOI/101_4.htm NOBODY here has ever.....justify fidiots who push their car stereo amps into clipping with their trunks buzzing for a few extra dB. shudder What ever gave you that idea? By all means DON'T be a 'cookie cutter DJ'.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14115 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 02:31 GMT . Then I have no suggestions. You won't do this and you won't do that. You'll only do this and you will not do that. If they don't like what you like, screw'em! Should make for an interesting Yellow Pages ad. "i wouldn't do a wedding gig. i'll ONLY do gigs where people actively WANT a DIFFERENT FLAVOR. i'd refuse to play ANY gig where someone wants me to play heavy metal, gangsta, industrial, & country etc. if taking a radical stance against hideous music & sound quality never gets me any gigs... so be it." Wha'ja gonna call yourself? .
NMyTree Silver Member Username: Nmytree Post Number: 330 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 03:03 GMT The main purpose of having a DJ at any event, is for the DJ to play the music THAT paying customer enjoys and wants at their event/party. There's no reason for anyone to pay you a single penny, to have you play only music, you, the DJ, approves of. If you're incapable of providing the paying customer, what the paying customer wants; you' re useless. People will simply rent a P.A. system and hook up a CD player to it; to play whatever music THEY want to hear. And that's exactly what a few of my friends have done in the past for weddings, birthday bashes and special events. Jan asked the right question. " Wha'ja gonna call yourself? " I can answer that question..... He'll call himself ..... " The Unemployed DJ ". Or ...... " The DJ Who Works Every Other Kind Of Job Known To Man, Except DJing "
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14116 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 03:34 GMT . Might I suggest "The Opposition DJ" - for when you want to throw a party of "No". .
leo stierer Silver Member Username: Magfan USA Post Number: 565 Registered: Oct-07	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 06:18 GMT Budge, Might I suggest looking up 'business plan' and 'marketing'? Yep, I'd agree, quality sells. Now, define quality in terms someone doing a wedding or some unknown party (type) would be interested in paying you todo.
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 613 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 12:43 GMT i am TOTALLY not doing it to make ANY money. my interest is PURELY for the love of music because oregon DJs are all cookie cutter suckers! i probably should have emphasized that i'm not doing this for business reasons. THAT'S why i won't compromise. i'm merely trying to fill a niche. my REAL motive is to try and create a demand for funky music so i can go to a club and actually dance MYSELF because no butthead local will play ANYTHING with the tiniest shred of soul no matter how many times you request "atomic dog" & "funkytown" etc. i'll gladly do FREE parties for non-profits and friends. my motives are purely quality based. anyone that wants crappy music on crappy PA systems can just move along. i can't be bothered. i'm a "DJ" with a philosophy so to speak. whoever's looking for the EXACT OPPOSITE of what everyone else is doing is what i'm in it for and there ARE people that don't like the status quo. maybe they aren't as vehement about it as me, but none of them happen to own nightclubs sadly. LOL i'm DJing for ME and an unwavering belief that people WILL respond to upbeat bouncy tunes if only someone would play them, not money which is a CRAPPY sellout motive in my book. if people "feel it" when i play tunes on my bike with just 10wpc, i'm pretty sure they'll feel it on a more substantial system that's 6-9dB quieter than club gear. OH.. before i forget... regarding the NASCAR analogy... i'm not trying to win the indy 500, i'm out to smoke circle trackers with a cheap porsche 914 on a small road course where light & agile rule & horsepower means nada. i don't like cars anyways. my cars are 2 bikes. i'm a total iconoclast. PS... kodo drums should THUMP, not boom PPS... in britain... they actually consider 30wpc on acoustic suspension rogers la3/5a minimonitors without subs "music". HONEST! go "eye fi go!" LOL
NMyTree Silver Member Username: Nmytree Post Number: 331 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 15:12 GMT My mistake. If you're not doing it for money, then it doesn't matter. Good luck with your Crusade.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14117 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 15:42 GMT . "PPS... in britain... they actually consider 30wpc on acoustic suspension rogers la3/5a minimonitors without subs "music". HONEST!" The rooms in England where those speakers would be used with such an amplifier are probably about 2k cubic feet or less in size. HONEST! And they are not listening to "funky music". HONEST HONEST!!!!! You seem to convince me more with every post that you have not thought this through other than you want to crusade. I assume you're not a Monty Python fan. You aren't finding much support here. Why not try somewhere else that finds your ideas more revolutionary? Not running you off, just suggesting you might get more backing somewhere else. .
leo stierer Silver Member Username: Magfan USA Post Number: 566 Registered: Oct-07	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 17:03 GMT You know, Budge, If you aren't in it for money, than have at! You may or may not have a nitch here. Kind of 'have stereo, will travel.'
NMyTree Silver Member Username: Nmytree Post Number: 332 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 19:53 GMT " ...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes. "
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14118 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 22:06 GMT . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno .
P Galbraith Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith Canada Post Number: 2229 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 01:54 GMT i went to a high school gym dance where the sound system was just a pair of 3 ways & a technics receiver and went to an even more modest college party where the sound system was just a pair of bookshelf speakers. 110dB is more than loud enough for any party i'd spin. Good luck getting 110 dB in a high school gym using $150 Energy speakers. Ouch. About 25 years ago, I used to DJ using Klipsch La Scala (and I still have them too). They are audiophile-grade in some circles and has the sensitivity to do what you want.
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 614 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 06:45 GMT i HATE the sound of lascalas. i never heard stereo i liked until a friend invited me to listen to his B&O turntable through a 45wpc denon receiver on tiny infinity 5 1/4" acoustic suspension minimonitors with STYROFOAM TWEETERS and HAD listened to klipsch, B&W, etc. that was the first time i ever heard totally undistorted tight bass and realitsic imaging. after that point i realized how much big sluggish woofers & resonating ports were muddying bass. THAT is the ONLY sound i can accept other than even MORE power hungry maggies. the best sounding full range speaker i heard back then was boston towers with 8" woofers back before they sold out to the idiotic "me like speakers that are louder" crowd that buys speakers for that and not SQ. i'm not looking to do gym parties either, i was just stating that it CAN be done with a crowd getting into it. i'm more looking to do little frathouse parties and more "upscale" adult parties. since creating this thread, i've come up with my motto... "the easy on your ears DJ". i'm doing what the mainstream refuses to and i KNOW i can't be the only person in the ENTIRE WORLD that despises gangsta & techno & crappy sounding PA gear. such "go with the flow sentiment" that everyone's trying to force me into is EXACTLY why i won't go clubbing anymore. if a prospective client is looking for same old same old... let them throw a rock to find another bland faceless hack. i'm fighting the powers that be. that's my ENTIRE POINT. it's just like cars... i ride my bike to do the very same thing. being in a minority doesn't make you wrong. i'm in it for whoever's looking for a more laid back & playful party sound that doesn't fatigue the ears in up to a 20 foot by 20 foot area. my REAL GOAL is to undermine the hoards of souless clone jocks by creating a demand for music you can actually dance to so i can get my groove on and pull the ladies like i used to before hip hop died in 1989. (RIP) i'll also do disco, new wave & bachelor pad... again great music no local hack will touch as they'd rather PRETEND they're "hard" not realizing that even "in da hood" cars still boom "hollaback girl" LOL maybe i'm just a mosquito to the local... but mosquitos can be deadly. all of the ADULTS i've handed CDs out to that ALSO hate the club scene loved most if not ALL of my 6 1/2 hour mp3 mix, and some of them DO host parties including my landlord. he might be my new years day gig. that everyone's arguing for me to simply "give in" only strengthens my resolve. thanks at least for that if absolutely NO technical help in "doing my own thing". BTW... i'd RATHER do arrays of 8" woofers than 12"ers. i hate that i'm selling out even that much for financial reasons. percussion sounds best on small woofers that can move fast or even better planars that move fastest. THAT'S how bass should sound... not like whuh whuh whuh whuh i see ZERO FUN in sound that gives you a headache. as a percussionist, i need drums that thump and CLEAR fast cowbells... the FOUNDATION of funk which the frat brats refuse to play which is why they must be toppled! LOL
P Galbraith Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith Canada Post Number: 2232 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 11:18 GMT totally undistorted tight bass and realistic imaging Funny, those are both La Scala properties. Good luck in your quest.
Chris H Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly Nova Scotia Canada Post Number: 710 Registered: Jul-07	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 11:25 GMT budget minded, nobody here is telling you to give in. That they don't necessarily agree with how you're going about it isn't advice to change your objectives, just the road to them. You obviously have strong opinions on the matter in both what good audio should sound like, and what is good music and what is bad. Fair enough, but if your REAL GOAL is to "undermine the hoards of souless clone jocks by creating a demand for music you can actually dance to so i can get my groove on and pull the ladies like i used to before hip hop died in 1989. what the heck are you doing here ? It really doesn't seem like much of a compelling sort of ideal that would get you many followers. Seems a tad shallow and self consumed IMO. Nonetheless, I wish you well. Good luck in your quest, good Sir Knight.
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 615 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 11:27 GMT no way... lascalas have big bass... but not TIGHT bass. the boom like ALL ported speakers do and if memory serves me right, they have 15" woofers. i WILL agree they do sound better than anything with grey carpet though. ported speakers will ALWAYS add distortion to bass no matter how hard it's fans try to deny that all ports do is amplify distortion. they add harmonics that don't belong just like blowing on a ceramic jug hillbully style excites IT'S resonant frequencies. does the resulting "whistled note" sound like someone blowing air? ABSOLUTELY NOT! it sounds like a DISTORTION. sure.. it has more bass, but bass that doesn't belong. never heard of "one note bass"? it makes me cringe and gives me a headache. even small amounts of boom drive me nuts. i wish once and for all i had the gear to do a waterfall plot of the same woofer in a ported and sealed enclosure to show which design has overhang and which has less. my ears hear it regardless. ported speakers are an abomination. always hated them and always will. acoustic suspension damps backwaves, not encourage it and they snap harder for that tight "thump" even, if as so many port lovers who live in the land of denial that TUNING speakers to resonate doesn't create distortion, they STILL have to admit that ported speakers CLEARLY sound different than acoustic suspension or simply look like TOTAL idiots. i NEVER heard bass that excited me until i heard it coming out of a 4 1/2" woofer. i care diddly about rolloff if it's at the expense of speed and clarity. you like big bass.. i like tight bass and will NEVER budge from that stance EVER! i know what i heard from those little two ways... THUMP.
P Galbraith Gold Member Username: Petergalbraith Canada Post Number: 2233 Registered: Feb-04	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 11:47 GMT They are not ported. They have tight bass that rolls off quickly below 50 Hz. Most current in-house users add a sub.
NMyTree Silver Member Username: Nmytree Post Number: 333 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 14:11 GMT For the record, I was not trying to give you the "go with the flow sentiment". I mistakenly missed some of your posts and thought you were actually interested in getting hired and making money. Didn't realize at the time you were on sa crusade. So I was speaking within the terms of you doing what you have to do, to get jobs. But if you're on a crusade and you're not doing this to supplement your income (or doing it as a primary source of income); then, have at it. Good luck to you and you go out there and change the world!! Rap and hip-hop....yuck.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14120 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 15:13 GMT . " Fair enough, but if your REAL GOAL is to "undermine the hoards of souless clone jocks by creating a demand for music you can actually dance to so i can get my groove on and pull the ladies like i used to before hip hop died in 1989. what the heck are you doing here ? It really doesn't seem like much of a compelling sort of ideal that would get you many followers. Seems a tad shallow and self consumed IMO." YEP! .
Chris H Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly Nova Scotia Canada Post Number: 711 Registered: Jul-07	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 15:15 GMT BM, if you've got it all figured out, what do you need here ? BTW, you're arguing with yourself.
leo stierer Silver Member Username: Magfan USA Post Number: 568 Registered: Oct-07	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 16:40 GMT Budge, How about some full range single driver speakers? Very pure in concept with no crossover. Many (most?) are either ported or Transmission line designs, though. BTW, I've been an exclusive panel owner for 25+ years, so I GET it. Try this? If money were secondary, what would you buy? In any event, please post what you end up with HERE so we can see, if not hear!
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14121 Registered: May-04	Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 17:00 GMT . "ported speakers will ALWAYS add distortion to bass no matter how hard it's fans try to deny that all ports do is amplify distortion. That sentence makes little sense but let's focus on the fact that ports do not add distortion, they are passive devices and therefore have no capacity or ability to add distortion and certainly not to amplify distortion. Research the function of a port in a loudspeaker enclosure before you start shouting. "they add harmonics that don't belong just like blowing on a ceramic jug hillbully style excites IT'S resonant frequencies. does the resulting "whistled note" sound like someone blowing air? ABSOLUTELY NOT! it sounds like a DISTORTION. sure.. it has more bass, but bass that doesn't belong." I wouldn't mind your going on so if you had this right - but you don't. Ports do not add "harmonics" any more than they add distortion. The driver(s) and the amplifiers will add harmonic overtones to the signal passed through circuits and transducers but the port simply exhausts pressure from one open end to another open end thereby attempting to equalize the pressure at both ends. Sort of like water seeking its own level, you wouldn't say water adds distortion by rising to an equal level in both legs of a "U" shaped tube, would you? It would be impossible for ports to do what you suggest for the very same reason they do not add distortion - they are totally passive devices. In operation an enclosure port is nothing more than a pressurized throat that allows the backwave of the driver to exit the enclosure and thereby reinforce and negate some portion of the driver's frontwave. Nothing in that function would or could create harmonics or distortion. The bit about the bottle is mostly correct so I don't see how you could confuse resonant frequency with harmonics and distortion. However, you have managed to misconstrue the function of two devices which are not comparable in usage. I just gave you the description of what a port is and how it operates. Blowing over the top of a bottle creates what is known as a Helmholtz Resonator. Many musical instruments such as violin and acoustic guitar are Helmholtz resonators and that is what provides both their unique personality and their power. HVAC systems often have HR's at some point in their ducting to minimize noise by way of pressure equalization - how a HR operates. HR's are also used as room treatment devices to tame narrow band frequency peaks by utilizing the energy of the chosen frequency, the equivalent to blowing across the top of the bottle's neck. To build a HR it is necessary to have a cavity with only one open end so you should realize it is impossible to correctly compare the function of a HR to that of the port throat in a speaker enclosure. Please, if you're going to rant, do it with just a bit of intelligence behind your words. http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=helmholtz%20resonator%20 cavity&type= "never heard of "one note bass"? it makes me cringe and gives me a headache. even small amounts of boom drive me nuts." Boom and one note bass are two different functions also. They often hang out together but they are not the same function. Any speaker system can be made to produce "one note bass" if the driving frequency content is below the system resonance. Any speaker system can be made to boom if the Qts of the driver or the Q of the system is not properly aligned for "controlled" - or what some refer to as "tight" - bass response. " i wish once and for all i had the gear to do a waterfall plot of the same woofer in a ported and sealed enclosure to show which design has overhang and which has less." You would be very surprised should you do such a comparison because the same woofer is not suited to both enclosure types. The correct Qts of the drivers is quite different, a loosely suspended driver to accomodate the air spring of the acoustic suspension cabinet vs. that of the stiffly suspended driver for the ported enclosure. Misusing a driver in an inappropriate enclosure would have serious effects on the performance of the speaker system and would certainly skew any measurements you might use to make your argument. "Overhang" is more a function of the driver's motor and suspension than of the enclosure type. A driver's motor assembly needs to be controlled by the amplifier and even in a sealed enclosure it is the motor as driven by the amplifier that largely determines "overhang" of a signal in the driver itself. Amplifiers that cannot drive sufficient current to control the motor assembly of a driver or those amplifiers that lack the damping factor to do so will cause "overhang" as the driver's back EMF begins to drive the amplifier and its NFB circuits. It has nothing to do with a port being in the enclosure and everything to do with load impedance and system "Q". "my ears hear it regardless." They might, in many cases it's not difficult to detect. But you have not correctly determined what it is your ears are hearing. "ported speakers are an abomination. always hated them and always will." You really should listen more and talk less. Open and/or infinite baffle speakers are "ported" in a sense and most audiophiles attest to their being one of the most musical systems on the commercial market. Quarter wave terminus enclosures are "ported", or "vented" as the term should be applied, and offer even more control over the low frequencies than will most sealed enclosures along with reinforcement of the bass that is in phase with the frontwave of the driver offering double the advantages of a sealed system. Horn loading is a vent and provides an acoustic impedance transformer to any driver mated to its throat thereby offering large advantages in correct system alignment. That you have only heard what you consider to be bad horns is more a testament to your incurious nature than the ability of horn loading to effectively benefit a speaker system. Aperiodic loading of the enclosure results in a vented system and was considered to be extremely successful in the Dynaco A25 system. It is seen infrequently in modern commercial designs and more so in DIY systems. You want a crusade but you seem as ignorant of what you are crusading against as GWB was of Sunnis and Shittes when he began his military crusade. Your rant against the evils of "ported" systems is misguided and you should do more listening before you strap on your armor in your quest to restore the dignity of disco. "acoustic suspension damps backwaves" Not exactly and if the sealed system is not aligned properly it will actually cause more boom and one note bass than a well implementd vented system. Properly aligning a sealed enclosure is still to a large degree trial and error while aligning a vented enclosure of most varieties is pure math and 99% of the process can be determined on paper before you ever cut a board. "not encourage it" The ported enclosure types do not "encourage" backwaves. How would the enclosure do that? It's a totally passive device. Do you not understand that simple fact? "and they snap harder for that tight 'thump'" You have confused driver diameter and enclosure type with system Q. Any driver of reasonable quality (its Qts) regardless of size can be made to act much like any other driver in any other enclosure type when it comes to "tight' bass. It is called "critical damping" and it is a number which can be determined during the design of the low frequency system. There's no magic to this or even overt preference - just marketability. This still comes down to you not having heard enough speakers to have any real idea what you are shouting about and not being inquisitive enough to find out. "even, if as so many port lovers who live in the land of denial that TUNING speakers to resonate doesn't create distortion, they STILL have to admit that ported speakers CLEARLY sound different than acoustic suspension or simply look like TOTAL idiots." Well, I guess you wouldn't like it if I called you the idiot at this point, eh? That's too bad because you are proving yourself to be less and less educated about this with every post. No one here has said you shouldn't want "tight bass" only that what you use as your reasoning for your crusade is misguided and ill-informed. I'm sure that's not what you want to hear. Unfortunately, it's a fact. You've put half baked ideas and misguided concepts in a CuisinArt and given it a whirl to come up with your own brand of mush to use as a tool for hopefully getting chicks. If a female should approach you during one of your "No!" parties, don't give the reasons for what you do. She just might know more about this than you do and then she'd dump you on the spot. .
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 616 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 07:42 GMT TUNED ports are NOT passive devices JV. come on! part of their NAME is the FACT that they're TUNED to RESONATE! i KNOW you have some understanding of physics. they're RESONANT CHAMBERS (that you cannot argue against... they're even TUNED to resonate at specific frequencies!) they suppliment bass by adding harmonics that don't belong. you can try to rationalize out of that FACT any way you want, but their entire PURPOSE is to distort sound and make it louder just like blowing on a bottle excites IT'S resonant frequencies. resonant air cavities are distortion. next thing you'll say is that flutes & tubas don't distort the sound of breath either as those ALSO resonate air. oh my goodness. can you really be that adverse to admitting that ports are just "hey... let's add more bass to the frontwave" devices OR that by the sheer speed of sound, introduce 700 some odd feet per second delay and overhang to the front wave. are you REALLY that much in denial of the laws of physics and the speed of sound? you're not listening to source material with ported subs, you're listening to the air inside RESONATING. i can't believe annyone could even CONSIDER arguing against ported designs doing WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO. i mean really. try simply TALKING into the ports of your speakers and then try to deny that you can't hear the air inside resonating to make your voice sound deeper than it really is because i'll call you a bold faced lying sack. i don't know why i even bother though. you just can't win an argument with someone deep in denial. are you going to sit there and say that companies that STILL make acoustic suspension speakers like NHT, aerial, M&K & wilson audo labs are going out of their way to make INFERIOR speakers? it's funny, because MANY hi fi rags consider ACOUSTIC SUSPENSION NHT classic 3s to be the BEST monitors under $1000. how is it that one acoustic suspension speaker can beat literally thousands of ported designs? they do sound pretty good, if ever so slightly metallic to my ears. i KNOW that the fastest, tightest bass i'd ever heard in 1995 was those infinies and nothing has sounded tighter until i heard maggies a few years ago. regardless.. i DESPISE the sound of ported speakers, always have and always will. the BEST subwoofer is really a planar driver... snap regarding full range drivers... they don't have the treble speed or extension i want for metallic percussion, they always use foam which rots and they're very expensive. if i had my way, i'd build an 8 X 4 1/2" tower with high efficiency ribbon tweeters with a bunch of 8 inch subs. i just gotta have well damped dynamic snap. anything else hurts my ears. my mission M71s sound like bloated crap with their port plugs removed. they only sound BIGGER, but through sloppy booming. i always keep the plugs in. i never would have even bought them without plugs. aperiodic loading IS the lesser of 2 evils. that you would try to argue that i can't hear what i can CLEARLY hear just frustrates me. as to DJing i'm not trying to get followers or groupies. i'm trying to get OTHER DJs to stop playing NOTHING but souless crap. i want to DANCE myself and the only way to do that is create a demand for what the local hacks are CONSPIRING to deny the public. i can't dance if i can't feel it. i want to be able to go out and not want to toss bottles at the DJ all night long and steam over wasting $5 to just be annoyed until i can't take it anymore and leave having NEVER felt a song. BTW.. i've ALWAYS hated rap. rap is not hip hop, it's just ONE aspect of it. rappers are the very buttheads responsible for destroying hip hop once they got rid of their DJs and turned to straight out gangsta, money and boo#y crap. the three things that ruined REAL hip hop around 1989 were 1. LA gangsta rappers 2. miami boo#y/bassheads & 3. chicago house music DJs nightclubs were never the same after technotronic, two live crew & public enemy REAL hip hop is underground now and in china, japan, russia & europe etc. really if current DMC (turntablist) & break dance competitions are any indication hip hop is supposed to be POSITIVE. the whole point of break dancing is to redirect aggression into a positive outlet. it's a LITERAL alternative to fighting. i get offended when gangsta crappers say they're hip hop as they're doing the exact opposite of what it stands for. it's sad that now everyone thinks that the opposite of hip hop IS hip hop. it's not. besides DJing & break dancing, graffiti is the other of the 4 elements. rap is just one and it ruined everything. before there were rappers, there were DJs, dancers & graffiti artists. oh well. this thread hasn"t been in any way productive. i'm done with it. later. i didn't come here to argue, i came here for technical advice on how to get the most thump for my buck with satellite speakers i can lift over the crowds' heads. anyways. i don't want to argue any more. as far as i'm concerned, ported speakers are crappy sounding abominations that i'll always despise.
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 617 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 08:48 GMT don't argue with me... argue with these people who are much better versed in the mathmatics & physics of speaker design... from Designing, building, and testing your own speaker system with projects By David B. Weems When a speaker is installed in a ported box and is coupled closely to the tuned circuit of the box, the original speaker resonance is replaced by two new resonances: one at a higher frequency than the original, the other at a lower frequency (Fig. 2-4) (sounds like the DEFINITION of distortion to me... adding frequencies that don't belong, pretty much EXACTLY what i've been saying all along, so CAN your smug, superior, ill informed lie based condescension lest you look silly) oh yeah... i forgot about port noise & chuff too when looking for argument ending FACTS i've known for DECADES. that's why B&W puts dimples on it's ports... to lower (not ERADICATE) wind turbulence here... straight from a company that DESIGNS speakers... KICKER http://www.kicker.com/Ported_Enclosure_Pros_and_Cons (regarding ported designs) Cons: 1 - Total loss of CONE CONTROL (sounds like the DAMPING issue i addressed) below vent tuning, which can result in HIGH DISTORTION (which was my point all along) and driver mechanical failure 2 - Midrange sound coming from inside the box through the vent can produce UNPLEASANT SOUND COLORATION (hmmm... didn't i mentioning the addition of harmonics that don't belong? i could SWEAR i did) 3 - Vented enclosures are more sensitive to changes such as temperature, humidity and driver fatigue 4 - Enclosure design is more complex and the enclosure itself must be more solidly constructed because internal pressure at frequencies around vent tuning can be nearly twice as high as a sealed enclosure 5 - Vented enclosures usually DON'T SOUND AS FAST (funny... EXACTLY what i said!) as sealed boxes because the RESONANT EFFECTS OF THE VENT TUNING WHICH IS ALWAYS SLIGHTLY OUT OF PHASE (sounds like my "speed of sound" comments doesn't it?) with the driver's output which is EXATLY WHAT i've been saying all along. i CAN read an audio article and understand basic physics thank you. i ALSO know the term "euphonics" which is a type of DISTORTION that many people find enjoyable, um, kinda like the "duh... that speaker sound big!" response people that are tone deaf to distortion have when listening to air vibrating inside an open box. regarding sealed enclosures http://www.kicker.com/Sealed_Enclosure_Pros_and_Cons Cons: 1 - Not as efficient as other designs (wow! it sounds alot like my "i can deal with bass rolloff" comments) that's it? acoustic suspension designs only have ONE con versus FIVE for ported designs, lower efficiency? hmmm... sounds like just the kind of compromise i can live with as i don't see a FREAKIN' SINGLE MENTION of any sort of DISTORTION. five to one... five to one... i know that means SOMETHING, but i guess i'm just too stupid to figure it out. (extreme sarcasm) funny... i didn't have to dig deep at all to find these "hush hush top level secrets". keep peddling your LIES somewhere else if you chose to REMAIN a misguided apologist. you've been busted by undeniable FACTS! take your arguments up with kicker and tell THEM what idiots their design team is made up of. maybe NOW you'll think twice about condescending to someone in full possession of THE FACTS when you're so proud of your ignorance and wear it like a badge of honor. i'm done doing your homework for you. i've known these facts since about 1985 when i sought to learn just why those little infinity 2 ways sounded so much better and began reading EVERY issue of stereo review (don't get me started on "it measures good judd hirsh! LOL) and high fidelity. my ears knew the truth before my education caught up. the truth will set you free... stop denying it already! ARGUMENT OVER i won... you lost deal with it at least now you know that you've been sadly mistaken about the acoustic artifacts that acoustic suspension designs impart and won't look so bad talking down to those who know a thing or two you don't if you chose to embrace the truth and correct your faulty assumtions or you can keep continuing to believe that you're god and decide the laws of the universe no matter what any scientist or engineer has to say. i won't argue circuit design with you as i'm positive you know way more about THAT than me. i can admit MY intellectual limitations EASILY. i only get on a soap box when i know i'm right. apologies if i said anything that hurt your feelings. i had to omit a few things i originally said as i'm not out to hurt any ones feelings. that's not my style, but fighting to the death for truth is. now to just ignore all of this NOISE and just go back to the process of making a sound system that COMPROMISES to distortion as little as possible realistically in a vacuum. 6 1/2" for midrange sucks, but moves more air than quicker 4 1/2" drivers which = SPL and the same for 12" woofers even if i'd rather do 8" wanna open up the size vs speed debate anyone? i KNOW i can find those facts easily too with a bit of digging.
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 618 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 12:25 GMT i meant "tuned port designs" in the 5th from last paragraph and NOT lower distortion acoustic suspension. never has an audio argument been won so decisively at ecoustics! LOL aside from ported speakers, i also have SERIOUS issues with wannabe rulers of the world and the entire concept of social stratification, so when someone tries to act superior to me, i see it as a declaration of war on my personal freedoms.
NMyTree Silver Member Username: Nmytree Post Number: 335 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 13:58 GMT It's times like this, that, I truely love Jan. And for the record, after reading through this thread; I fail to identify an attack by Jan, on BM.
Chris H Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly Nova Scotia Canada Post Number: 712 Registered: Jul-07	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 14:27 GMT "are you going to sit there and say that companies that STILL make acoustic suspension speakers like NHT, aerial, M&K & wilson audo labs are going out of their way to make INFERIOR speakers?" Turn that around and ask your self the same question. Of the hundreds of ported speakers and the companies making them, do you think THEY are trying to make inferior speakers ? Harbeth, Spendor, Totem.....I don't think that argument is going to get you very far. "it's funny, because MANY hi fi rags consider ACOUSTIC SUSPENSION NHT classic 3s to be the BEST monitors under $1000." For every one you can pull out someone will find one that thinks a ported design is. "how is it that one acoustic suspension speaker can beat literally thousands of ported designs?" That's the point isn't it. It only beat thousands of ported designs in one person's opinion. For every one of those you could find someone who picks a ported speaker. "Best" is subjective. "regarding full range drivers... they don't have the treble speed or extension i want for metallic percussion," How many have you heard ? There are some that offer very broad frequency coverage, and BTW many of them are ported or transmission line designs. I think some of the Lowthers drivers are rated from the low thirties up to 20,000 Hz. But putting that aside for a moment, you could still add a sub and/or super tweeter to augment the extreme frequencies at both ends. You seem like a big subwoofer type of guy. "they always use foam which rots and they're very expensive." Many are foam-rubber, some are even cloth. Some speaker designers actually feel rubber offers too much resistance and you therefore lose speed of the driver. Less speed, less accuracy. Either way, foam surrounds can last a very long time for most people. I wouldn't expect your specific needs to be among many designers primary concerns. As to your list of Cons regarding ported speakers, well, yeah, there are compromises in any speaker design. Your list of cons for sealed enclosures seems to be written by someone who prefers them. An enclosed box has many, many issues for the speaker designer to work against other than efficiency. What do you think happens to all of that trapped energy inside the speaker cabinet ? Do you think that does not cause cabinet resonance ? or interfere with the drivers ? That's why some people prefer dipoles or open baffle speakers as some feel the cabinet itself needs to be eliminated to get truly accurate reproduction. Rant away at ported speakers if you like. Nobody is making you buy them. But there is no panacea. There will always be compromises, so you choose the ones that satisfy your VERY UNIQUE needs, and let others choose what they prefer based on their needs and preferences.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14122 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 15:58 GMT . "sounds like the DEFINITION of distortion to me... " What is being distorted are the facts about speaker design. Unfortunately, they are being distorted by you. Here is a definition of "distortion; "The act or an instance of distorting. The condition of being distorted." http://www.answers.com/topic/distortion Neither of those fit what occurs in a port. Responding to multiple, ranting and rambling posts that don't make much sense individually and even less as a whole is difficult but let's try this for size ... "TUNED ports are NOT passive devices JV." Yes, they are. Active circuits have a voltage that runs through them, passive circuits do not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_component OK? "part of their NAME is the FACT that they're TUNED to RESONATE! i KNOW you have some understanding of physics. they're RESONANT CHAMBERS (that you cannot argue against... they're even TUNED to resonate at specific frequencies!)" Wrong again, the enclosure is tuned to resonate at a specific frequency by way of its volume in relation to (primarily) the Fs of the driver. The port should not in an ideal situation resonate itself. For instance, if you were to simply cut a hole in the wall of the enclosure, it would not resonate yet the speaker would qualify as a tuned system of the vented variety. Any time you place a driver in an enclosure you have a tuned system whether the enclosure is sealed or vented. Therefore, by your loosely defined goals of a resonant chamber any system, sealed or vented, will have a resonant frequency, the F3 of the system or the point where the signal is down 3dB beneath "system resonance", and therefore would add "distortion". It doesn't really work that way. Distortion is an addition of information that does not exist in the original. Resonance does not fit that category of addition. Yes, cabinets resonate and the information is not in the original signal. However, both sealed and vented enclosures resonate and in equal amounts if they are under similar conditions. A designer does not figure cabinet resonances into their equations since they are a result of the construction materials, dimensions and techniques. They are removed from the basic math of the design for this reason and dealt with as separate problems that exist in any tuned cavity. The enclosure, whether sealed or vented, is a tuned resonant chamber. The port itself is not the resonant chamber, the entire enclosure is the chamber and the port exhausts internal pressure. That's essentially all it does. Changing the port volume will alter the tuning of the chamber but the port does not resonate, the chamber resonates in that it is tuned to a specific frequency where pressure on the inside of the enclosure is higher than pressure on the outside. But the vent itself does not resonate. OK? "they suppliment bass by adding harmonics that don't belong." This is where things get dicey dealing with how you construct sentences that meld more than one item into a conglomerate of words that end up meaning nothing. You write very poorly. "They" means what? The port? The resonant chamber? The driver? It can't be the port since it is a passive device and creates no signal of its own. The resonant chamber? Same answer. Does the driver - an active device - add harmonic distortion? Yes, that's not a secret. However, the distortion is present in both sealed and vented systems since it is a function of the driver. HD is typically much higher in a sealed system since the driver must make longer excursions to produce similar frequency response at similar SPL's due to the lack of reinforcement from the backwave as would be present in a vented system - one reason for a horn loaded or quarter wave system to have quite low HD measurements compared to a sealed system. Does a vented system allow the distortion produced by the driver an outlet? Yeah, again no secret. But it is the driver that produces the distortion component and not the passive chamber or port. Since the driver in any vented system has to work less hard to produce equal SPL's compared to a sealed system the HD argument is generally considered a wash for the two with camps that argue for and against both without any real facts and without regard for the trade offs to be found in any audio device. You fall into the camp of not being able to recognize trade offs - that is termed partisan BS on your part. "you can try to rationalize out of that FACT any way you want, but their entire PURPOSE is to distort sound and make it louder just like blowing on a bottle excites IT'S resonant frequencies." Once again you confuse a cavity which is open at both ends with a HR which is closed at one end. Since the comparison doesn't work, there's no point in discussing this. In the math for a vented system - of which a passive radiator (get it, "passive") is also considered a vented enclosure - no inclusion of the resonance of the materials is made, just the math for the tuning of the cavity. "resonant air cavities are distortion. next thing you'll say is that flutes & tubas don't distort the sound of breath either as those ALSO resonate air. oh my goodness." No, resonant cavities are not distortion, they are resonances. Resonance is an response to the frequency not a distortion of the frequency - a touchy differentiation but a crucial one. Think of it this way, a resonance is a structured set of frequencies that are the result of tuning the cavity of a flute, tuba or speaker enclosure by way of altering its volume. The resonance occurs in response to pressure entering the cavity. Distortion components are not the result of pressure but, in the case of a driver, the bending of the materials in response to voltage across the voice coil terminals with the driver material being connected to two disparate points. Tapping on the driver's face when it is disconnected from any amplification will result in resonance but not distortion. Got that? "can you really be that adverse to admitting that ports are just "hey... let's add more bass to the frontwave" devices OR that by the sheer speed of sound, introduce 700 some odd feet per second delay and overhang to the front wave. are you REALLY that much in denial of the laws of physics and the speed of sound?" Yes, vented systems reinforce the frontwave with the backwave. I assume that is what you were trying to say. But the speed of sound and the issue of overhang has nothing to do with this. The enclosure is tuned to a specific frequency but it is not a brickwall filter and therefore a wide range of information passes through the vent. Some of that is in phase with the frontwave and some is out of phase with the frontwave. This is not overhang but cancellation and addition. "The main effect of damping in a loudspeaker is to reduce the SPL produced by the loudspeaker's diaphragm moving because of its own inertia after the signal stops. The frequency of the sound it produces with this movement will be at the resonant frequency of the moving system. A common term for this is 'overhang'." http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/damping_factor/# As I said earlier "overhang" deals with damping effects, both mechanical and electrical. It is not an issue of speed but of the length of the wave that is present at the midpoint between the driver and the vent. Just so this doesn't get lost by a computer phart I'm going to end this and pick up in another post. .
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14123 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 16:30 GMT . "you're not listening to source material with ported subs, you're listening to the air inside RESONATING. i can't believe annyone could even CONSIDER arguing against ported designs doing WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO. i mean really." You are confusing so many things here it's difficult to know where to begin. Of course you are listening to source material with vented enclosures, you are listening to the frontwave producing the signal and you are hearing a portion of the backwave that is being added to that frontwave for reinforcement. You are confusing the idea the air inside the enclosure is "resonating" with the idea of a pressurized cavity. The air simply represents a pressure and the tuning or resonance of the cavity responds to that pressure. But to say the air inside the cavity is resonating is missing the point of tuning the cavity. The air inside the cavity does not resonate at different frequencies with each individual pressurization but at the "resonant frequency" of the driver. There is a "minimum motion" point in any tuned system, at this point pressure on the driver is equal both in front and behind the driver and the driver actually stands still while the pressure of the cavity supplies the sound. But that pressure can be considered a single resonance, that of the driver's Fs. Above and beneath that frequency the main contribution is from the driver itself. "try simply TALKING into the ports of your speakers and then try to deny that you can't hear the air inside resonating to make your voice sound deeper than it really is because i'll call you a bold faced lying sack. i don't know why i even bother though. you just can't win an argument with someone deep in denial." I'm not sure what this proves. You are pressurizing the cavity when you speak into the port and the cavity responds with its tuning frequency added to your voice or the pressure you introduce. At this point you've created a Helmholtz Resonator, a cavity closed on one end, not a vented system. But this additional frequency you hear is not distortion, it is resonance, the resonance of the HR. I don't know what point you were trying to make with this. I guess you didn't really have one to make. "are you going to sit there and say that companies that STILL make acoustic suspension speakers like NHT, aerial, M&K & wilson audo labs are going out of their way to make INFERIOR speakers?" No, but as has been pointed out it would seem you are condemning the vast majority of speaker designs that have existed throughout the history of audio as being inferior simply because you do not understand the function of a tuned system. You want to determine what is the best system rather than realizing many critics of audio systems actually recommend vented systems in all price ranges. Actually, I rather dislike most common vented systems. Vents are a cheap way to sell a speaker and too many designers allow for the easy way out. I'm not particularly fond of passive radiators either. But I do find some vented systems to be excellent in their trade offs and obviously can more easily than you get beyond the dogmatic rejection of something simply due to reading its description. Dogma is for those who care not to think for themself. You fall into that category of not thinking. "it's funny, because MANY hi fi rags consider ACOUSTIC SUSPENSION NHT classic 3s to be the BEST monitors under $1000. how is it that one acoustic suspension speaker can beat literally thousands of ported designs?" Do you have any idea what a "stawman argument" is? You've just used it and it is considered proof of nothing by any well educated, reasoning soul. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=straw+man "i KNOW that the fastest, tightest bass i'd ever heard in 1995 was those infinies and nothing has sounded tighter until i heard maggies a few years ago." Your first statement is yet another strawman and your second only says no enclosure has advantages over any enclosure. Yet there are more trade offs with no enclosure. "the BEST subwoofer is really a planar driver... " That's really a very dumb statement that would only come from someone consumed by dogma. And with that the rest of that post is BS and I'll move on to the next post - the one you made after you said you were done posting. .
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14124 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 17:40 GMT . "When a speaker is installed in a ported box and is coupled closely to the tuned circuit of the box, the original speaker resonance is replaced by two new resonances: one at a higher frequency than the original, the other at a lower frequency (Fig. 2-4) (sounds like the DEFINITION of distortion to me... adding frequencies that don't belong, pretty much EXACTLY what i've been saying all along, so CAN your smug, superior, ill informed lie based condescension lest you look silly) " You are once again misunderstanding the function of a tuned cavity. What is being described as "the original speaker resonance" is the driver resonance or its Fs. It is the capacity of a tuned system to shift the Fs up or sometimes downward by way of the "system resonance", that's where the "tuning" comes in when you work with a tuned cavity. There is no new information being added to the signal, only the reinforcement created by the resonance of the system or the tuned cavity. I'm going to bet you don't get that one. " i forgot about port noise & chuff too when looking for argument ending FACTS i've known for DECADES. that's why B&W puts dimples on it's ports... to lower (not ERADICATE) wind turbulence " Yes, and I never said chuffing does not exist but it is not a "distortion" component, it's a pressure component. A rather annoying problem with many common vented systems is the upper frequencies that exit through the port and are heard as a distinct source of information located away from the midrange of the driver. That still is not "distortion". And it does not exist in a well designed and executed vented system. A well designed vented system acts as a low pass/high pass filter and can remove information that would be out of phase with the frontwave. Again, don't let dogma get in your eye. Ya'know, picking Kicker as your example of well designed systems is kind of like picking Peavey as SOTA in pro sound. "Cons: 1 - Total loss of CONE CONTROL (sounds like the DAMPING issue i addressed) below vent tuning, which can result in HIGH DISTORTION (which was my point all along) and driver mechanical failure" No, it is not a damping issue in that the driver is being driven beyond its limits. You can't use out of limits arguments to prove the validity of a particular system against another. The same type of distortion would occur in a sealed system if you drove the system beyond its limits. Since the sealed system must execute larger excursions, as I've previously mentioned, it's distortion component can be much higher than a vented system for equal frequency at equal SPL. What you've quoted is selective omission on the part of Kicker to sell off a system they do not manufacture. They continue to do more of this as the advertising copy goes forward. "Midrange sound coming from inside the box through the vent can produce UNPLEASANT SOUND COLORATION (hmmm... didn't i mentioning the addition of harmonics that don't belong? i could SWEAR i did)" You did mention harmonics. What you failed to do was reason through what is being said. The signal is not added harmonic information, it is the backwave of the driver. You're really not going to make me explain the difference, are you? "Vented enclosures are more sensitive to changes such as temperature, humidity and driver fatigue" That's quite a stretch for a "con" from a manufacturer who doesn't produce vented systems. The conditions described affect all speakers and the materials used will be more a determinant of effect than will the enclosure type. The lossy surround material on a driver meant for a sealed system would experience driver "fatigue" more quickly than the more stiffly suspended driver suited for a vented system, it's a matter of the Qts of the driver not of the enclosure. Please, use some common sense here. "Vented enclosures usually DON'T SOUND AS FAST (funny... EXACTLY what i said!) as sealed boxes because the RESONANT EFFECTS OF THE VENT TUNING WHICH IS ALWAYS SLIGHTLY OUT OF PHASE (sounds like my "speed of sound" comments doesn't it?) with the driver's output" First of all is it not always out of phase with the driver, it is the driver's output that you are hearing. If the vent did not produce in phase signals, there would be no additive signal to use. Right? Think about it. I'm afraid we've once again run into a manufacturer who is relying on the stupidity of the reader to sell their product. Now there's a shocker, eh? I believe I've already covered your "speed of sound" remark. It has virtually nothing to do with in phase/out of phase signals other than refraction and compression waves do travel at a set rate. Beyond that it is the length of the wave in opposition to the contravening wave that matters. IOW, the midrange you hear from the vent is not of a long enough wavelength to cancel the frontwave of identical frequency. If you take the driver out of the enclosure, the length of the bass wave will cancel due to its length not its speed while the higher frequency, shorter wavelengths traveling at the same speed will not cancel. Got that? Stop being an idiot! "which is EXATLY WHAT i've been saying all along. i CAN read an audio article and understand basic physics thank you." *NO! you obviously cannot.* " i ALSO know the term "euphonics" which is a type of DISTORTION that many people find enjoyable, um, kinda like the "duh... that speaker sound big!" response people that are tone deaf to distortion have when listening to air vibrating inside an open box." Once again your sentence construction and misunderstanding of what is at work has conflated so many poorly conceived ideas that it is difficult to know where to begin. "Euphonic" distortions are typically related to an active device such as a tube amplifier which tends to have a different harmonic component than a solid state amp. However, the structure of a tube amp's harmonics and those of a typical loudspeaker are quite dissimilar. "Bigness" is often more a result of cohesion in the dual stereo (speaker) systems than it is of any other function. Cohesion in a typical horn loaded system has to do with the non-existent first reflections that simply aren't there due to the directivity of the horn. That's not to say there aren't other trade offs with horn loading but I can deal with trade offs where it would seem you just don't even recognize their existence. "Cons: 1 - Not as efficient as other designs (wow! it sounds alot like my "i can deal with bass rolloff" comments) that's it? acoustic suspension designs only have ONE con versus FIVE for ported designs, lower efficiency? hmmm... sounds like just the kind of compromise i can live with as i don't see a FREAKIN' SINGLE MENTION of any sort of DISTORTION." If you take from that BS the idea that sealed systems do not produce any distortion component, you are exactly the uninformed buyer Kicker is aiming at with that piece of propaganda advertising. You're really not going to make me explain that, are you? "five to one... five to one... i know that means SOMETHING, but i guess i'm just too stupid to figure it out. (extreme sarcasm)" No sarcasm, you really are that stupid. "funny... i didn't have to dig deep at all to find these 'hush hush top level secrets'." What's even more hillarious is that you stopped looking after you'd found what satisfied your conclusions. That's called dogma; uninformed, partisan, incurious dogma. Because, if you had looked, you would have found more information. This isn't top secret, just left out of trying to sell off one product and onto another as Kicker is doing with their sealed subwoofers. "keep peddling your LIES somewhere else if you chose to REMAIN a misguided apologist. you've been busted by undeniable FACTS! take your arguments up with kicker and tell THEM what idiots their design team is made up of." Well, as you can see I have not been BUSTED! and Kicker doesn't have idiots for designers just copywriters who know what to leave out to sell off a product. Now stop being an idiot. "maybe NOW you'll think twice about condescending to someone in full possession of THE FACTS when you're so proud of your ignorance and wear it like a badge of honor." No, I'll still call you an idiot when you are one and you have been a particularly unamusing one in this thread. Your lack of facts is astounding. Your distortion of the information is remarkable. Your attitude sucks. "i'm done doing your homework for you. i've known these facts since about 1985 ... " Too bad you stopped reading in 1985, there's quite a bit more to know than you have displayed here. "at least now you know that you've been sadly mistaken about the acoustic artifacts that acoustic suspension designs impart and won't look so bad talking down to those who know a thing or two you don't if you chose to embrace the truth and correct your faulty assumtions or you can keep continuing to believe that you're god and decide the laws of the universe no matter what any scientist or engineer has to say." That really is one mess of a run on sentence, isn't it? I don't really care if you understand what I've said. You aren't interested in facts, and you have a difficult time dealing with facts, you are interested in winning and in restoring the dignity of disco. "i had to omit a few things i originally said as i'm not out to hurt any ones feelings. that's not my style, but fighting to the death for truth is." Well, truth to tell, it is rather insulting to read information that is so poorly put together and so misunderstood. But, since I've set you straight on numerous items, it's all in the game, eh? "wanna open up the size vs speed debate anyone? i KNOW i can find those facts easily too with a bit of digging." Sure, why not. You can't have any of this right either. .
Blade Bronze Member Username: Blade1 Post Number: 53 Registered: Jul-09	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 17:42 GMT ^^ who in their right mind would read all of this???
NMyTree Silver Member Username: Nmytree Post Number: 336 Registered: Aug-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 18:01 GMT There was a lot of funny stuff in BM's posts. But finishing off all that nonsense with a..." declaration of war on my personal freedoms " .......... Well, that has hilarity at it's best. Sorry BN, but Jan just stomped all over your selective reasoning and silliness. Nothing Jan said is inaccurate. On the other hand, you're way off in The Land Of Delusions and Dreams........and trying to convince everyone your feet are firmly placed on the ground.. Go fight for your rights! You go girl!
Blade Bronze Member Username: Blade1 Post Number: 54 Registered: Jul-09	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 18:49 GMT licklick*
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14125 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 20:33 GMT . I think part of the probem lies here; "you're not listening to source material with ported subs, you're listening to the air inside RESONATING. i can't believe annyone could even CONSIDER arguing against ported designs doing WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO. i mean really." You see, air cannot resonate. Materials resonate but air does not. Air can be moved (sort of) when it is pressurized, from high to low or to equal pressure overall. But air does not resonate. Its movement is somewhat like that of light in that it is both a particle and a wave when it becomes a compression or a rarefaction. So we are experiencing the change in pressure on our eardrums when we "hear" sound. But air itself does not resonate. .
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14126 Registered: May-04	Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 21:22 GMT . For those interested, here's something from Vance Dickason's "The Loudspeaker CookBook"; "Compared to closed box systems, vented enclosures possess several unique characteristics: A. Lower cone excursion near the box resonance frequency, resulting in relatively higher power handling and lower modulation distortion. This attribute makes vented enclosures rather attractive for use in two way loudspeakers. It is accompanied, however, by high excursion potential at frequencies substantially below resonance, making the design extremely sensitive to subsonic noise such as that caused by record warp. Fortunately, this can be easily overcome with a low frequency filter. B. Lower cut off using the same driver. C. In theory, a +3dB higher efficiency for the same volume closed box system. While this is not particularly significant in practice, driver design requirements of lower required cone mass and less required voice coil "overhang" do contribute significantly to increased efficiency for a given magnet assembly. D. On the downside, vented enclosures are much more sensitive to misaligned parameters. This factor makes the vented box loudspeaker somewhat more difficult for the inexperienced homebuilder." (I should note this is taken from the first edition of the CookBook which is copyright 1987, long before the proliferation of computer based MathCad programs and tools which are now available to the DIY builder.) In section 2.30 Dickason writes, "Vented systems have a much steeper cut off and, if severly misaligned, tend to be troubled by audible transient ringing. In fact, the vented systems' previously maligned reputation for being "boom boxes" undoubtedly was earned by severly misaligned loudspeakers." Misalignment of vented systems will cause deviations from flat response that can be as high as 4-5dB. Unfortunately, when boom sells it is not uncommon for misaligned systems to dominate the market. Keep in mind the date this was written, 1987, before TS parameters were widely accepted and when many vented systems were "designed" by cut and try methods. And, of course, a sealed enclosure system can also produce wooly, boomy bass also if its system "Q" rises above 1. .
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14128 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 05:13 GMT . ~~http://homepage.mac.com/marc.heijligers/audio/milestones/acoustical/vent/vent.ht ml~~ .
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 619 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:12 GMT that's right... band together like a religious cult defending it's lies no matter what facts prove them wrong. it's more important that you stick with your lie no matter what than admit you're living in a fantasy world. this is why i get so bent out of shape with apologists of all stripe. deny the truth all you want and look absolutely silly and in denial while you do. the indisputable facts are right in front of your face and you just keep digging yourselves deeper in your hole. (pun intened) un freakin' believable! NEVER underestimate the power of denial or the harmful nature of group dynamics. keep telling each other your lies and seeking each other's support lest your faith in supernatural mumbo jumbo be shaken by the beacon of truth robozealots. while you're at it... email kicker industries and tell them just how much smarter you are than their STAFF of engineers, or any OTHER knowledgeable person that's been saying the same things forever. tell it to the radio shack speaker builder guide which also tells it like it is. tell it to that car stereo projects book i once read's author. tell it to the staff of stereophile & anyone that used to work for audio magagazine. when you can't win an argument with FACTs, you resort to petty name calling? someone's read the GOPAC manifesto methinks. go ahead and keep promoting lies as arguing with such misguided fact flat earth comments missing is beneath my dignity as is pointing out biblical contradictions to morons who'll pile lies upon lies to protect their faulty beliefs and when that doesn't work, just make veiled threats. you are all some piece of work. BTW you NEVER heard me say that acoustic suspension speakers don't distort music either. they just don't blurr bass to the extent that ported systems do. they don't add the resonant distortion anyone who can understand cause and effects can understand. one last point i'll make before i go will be QUANTIFYING just how much ported speakers distort music so you can ignore that FACT too. DIRECTLY from the kicker site's ported pros & cons: "The vent in the enclosure interacts with the volume of air in the cabinet and the driver to help increase output and reduce cone excursion at and around the tuning frequency. In face, at box tuning, almost all the bass is produced by the vent -- NOT the woofer." for those of you who apparently can't read or comprehend... that means that you don't even hear the ACTUAL sound from the woofer, just all of the pure euphonic distortion (3 types listed below it at kicker's site) that ported crap boxes produce. tell your lies to someone more gullible and less informed that you apologists. "duh me like big sloppy bass duh... anyone that not like... duh... big distorted bass is enemy that me must attempt to bully into submission... duhhhhhhh" cling to your fairy tale lies like a security blanket. deny the SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN truth till you're blue in the face. you're just silly misguided kids who refuse to accept there is no santa claus to me. buh bye lying "lalalala i'm not listening to ANYONE'S FACTS lalalala!" sacks of ostrich fertilizer! why am i even bothering... apparently reading and comprehension simply don't exist here, just groundless rabid ideological fascism. you really should be ashamed of yourselves for defending lies with such fervor.
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 620 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:25 GMT here are some more sources of facts you can deny: "Ported subwoofer enclosures do a good job of providing quality sound, but you must realize that it will not be the best sound possible. A sealed subwoofer enclosure will provide you with BETTER SOUND if that is what you are looking for." ~~http://car-sound-systems.com/car-subwoofers/the-ported-subwoofer-enclosure/~~ regarding ported speakers: "This gives it a much more boomy effect with less accurate bass response." http://ezinearticles.com/?Subwoofer-Box-Types---Sealed,-Ported,-Vented-And-Bandp ass&id=910928 "no woofer control below tuning frequency." http://www.mobileinformationlabs.com/HowTo-1Woofer-BoxPaid-New.htm "However, below the port tuning frequency the woofer will become unstable and "unload" causing the woofer to oscillate violently, leading to premature woofer failure when driven with excessive power." & "slightly less transient accuracy" http://www.caraudiobook.com/car_audio_subwoofer_system/car_audio_subwoofer_syste m.htm run heathens! run! the truth is coming to get you!
budget minded Silver Member Username: Cheapskate Post Number: 621 Registered: Mar-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:39 GMT i've deleted the link to this thread. argue with yourselves and KEEP denying the very nature of TUNED RESONANT CAVITIES all you want. while you're at it, get your hearing checked! LOL you've been listening to overly loud distorted bass far too long.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14129 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 13:12 GMT . I particularly liked the suggestion to go read the Radio Shack Speaker builder Guide and the car stereo quotes. Thanks, those are two sources of good information I often overlook. I don't suppose you could actually refute anything I posted instead of just posting more incoherent ranting like a PO'd lunatic? I can't imagine you noticed the wording in that link I posted last night; "As the port is a 'passive element' ...". One of your problems with this is you started off with a very basic assumption that was incorrect and then you just started compounding the mistakes on top of that wrong assumption. Maybe if you replaced "resonating chamber" with "oscillating chamber", you'd have a better picture of what is going on in a vented system. Nah! I doubt anything is going to help you understand this. You're being an idiot and an @ss. There's not much anyone can do to save that combination. Look, instead of just insulting people, why not try to learn something? I'm sure you haven't read the link I provided last night, why not give it a read without all your inaccurate ideas bogging you down? It is a classic description of how a vented system operates. It says nothing about "resonance" since the term has you all confused about what happens inside the enclosure. The concept is simple, a spring and a mass, oscillations and pressure. Sealed and vented systems have more in common than you think. No system is perfect and each has trade offs, but what you've done is to totally misunderstand what you've read, then you found sentences that you think support your distaste for vented systems and further distorted their meaning. You've spent lots of time finding information to misguide your thinking (which wasn't difficult once you had a wrong assumption in your head) just because you have some dislike for something and thought you had to prove to yourself how bad it is. If that process was appiled to a group of people, I'd say you found information to support your bigotry. And, if you don't want to learn, there is nothing more I can do for someone who doesn't want to help themself. You have been ranting about one thing or another throughout this thread and not paying a lick of attention to what anyone has said. You're right and the rest of the world is wrong. The famous last words of any big0t. I said it before in another thread and it's just as appropriate here, you can lead a horse'sass to water ... .
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14130 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 14:15 GMT . I suspect you still won't read the linked article, so at least read this portion of it; "A second observation discusses the difference between sealed enclosures and vented enclosures. It is true that vented enclosures have a somewhat worse impulse response, due to the phase shift of the vent. It is often forgotten however that awoofer in a sealed enclosure is used around its resonance frequency, and also has a phase shift. The differences in phase shift between a sealed and vented enclosure is shown by the following figure, questioning the audibility of this difference at these low frequencies and in living room conditions. In Hausdorf's article, impulse response curves are shown in living room conditions, hardly showing any visible difference in the impulse response. [Elektor, 1986] Last but not least, Hausdorf shows that an increase of the length of the vent results in a better impulse response (from b to a in the following figure), approaching the response of a sealed enclosure. Hence the vent length can be used to trade-off more bass versus better impulse response. The use of very short vents results in "boom-boxes", a phenomenon where vented speakers have been and are still associated with. This is unjustified, because properly dimensioned vented speakers have a comparable impulse response in practical situations. [Elektor, 1986] Last but not least, vented speakers offer advantages in term of linearity. As the speaker only has to move a bit to excite the vent, it operates in its linear region for a larger total output. And ... Given this definition, and knowledge of the fact that the port conly contribute output over a narrow range of frequencies around the enclosure resonance Fb, it should become clear why the port itself is not what's making the system 3 dB more efficient (especially considering that over the frequency range where the port output is greatest, the driver's output is minimized). What the port is doing is filling in the otherwise reduced response a more efficient and over-damped system would have. Secondarily, the reduction of driver motion due to the port has other benefits: decreased distortion at that range where the excursion-dependent distprtion would otherwise be the greatest and increased mechanical power limits. Trade offs. Realize there are trade offs and learn something new. .
Chris H Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly Nova Scotia Canada Post Number: 715 Registered: Jul-07	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 15:20 GMT 'buh bye lying "lalalala i'm not listening to ANYONE'S FACTS lalalala!" sacks of ostrich fertilizer! Dude, look in the mirror. You just went on another long rant and didn't dispute a single argument put forward, other than basically calling "liar, liar".....which doesn't take a lot of intelligence. I think you're getting your "opinions" (note I didn't say "facts") from the wrong sources.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 13756 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 17:17 GMT Troll
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 13757 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 17:19 GMT BM, for a guy who wants 'fries with that' for your stated budget of 150$ or whatever, you sure are passing up some very solid physics for free.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 13758 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 17:22 GMT Kicker make some world renowned sealed enclosure speakers with a -3db rolloff at 37Hz, I am sure. This is the lowest frequency of a bass, right? Near 40Hz?
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14131 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 17:39 GMT . Bass guitar in standard tuning will stop at approximately 41 Hz. However, unless Kicker found a way to defy the laws of physics, the roll out beneath system resonance for any sealed enclosure or true infinite baffle is approximately -12dB per octave, a second order filter. -3dB roll out would mean you could set system resonance at 100Hz and still have very useable response at 25Hz or, for that matter, 12Hz. I think you need to recheck your figures, Nuck. .
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 13762 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 18:11 GMT If driver response is targeted to flat @ 40Hz, and a rolloff of -3db @ 37 Hz, where does a 4th order cutoff happen? I did not refer to Linkwitz or 2nd order, simply bass response to a given value, in this case, 40Hz, as BM does not like low bass, including electronica.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14132 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 19:30 GMT . OK, I think I see what you're saying. The -3dB down point of the system is at is at 37Hz, right? A second order filter is -12dB per octave and a fourth order filter is -24dB per octave. With the system flat to 40Hz before it begins to roll out, the second order filter would have its -3dB point at approx. 35Hz. With a fourth order filter the -3dB point would fall at about 37Hz. -24dB roll out is what would result from a vented enclosure. But the term "Linkwitz(-Riley)" wouldn't apply to a passive filter created by the enclosure. The terminology applies to crossovers where two more shallow filters, typically mulitples of Butterworth's, are stacked or cascaded one on top of the other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkwitz-Riley_filter http://www.rane.com/note160.html I don't think the issue bm has is with low bass but with vented enclosures. Possibly his mother was frightened by a bass reflex when he was still in the womb. .
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 13766 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 22:02 GMT Thank you for the confirmation of my post, JV. It gets thicker and heavier as we go. I think this example will serve BM well, as he exchews the response required for organ.orchestral/some classical that 50 and 60 yr olds appreciate.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 14135 Registered: May-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 22:12 GMT . Yeah, he's not likely to pick up many hot chicks with Brahms. But with the dignity of disco restored he'd find most of the energy of the music is right in the heart of where a vented design has less system distortion than a sealed enclosure and all his BS about the driver being uncontrolled beneath system resonance wouldn't even be approached.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 13768 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 23:39 GMT Even big hearted disco (Gloria Gaynor, better BeeGees) was only mixed to 40Hz or so, before the advent of big augmented bass in electronic fake bass, there was just more of it in clubs and such. The bass didn't change, just the volume and bias of it. And outside collars. I think BM has left the building, along with his 45Hz appreciation. A shame, really.
Gavin Gold Member Username: Gavdawg Albany, New York Post Number: 1310 Registered: Nov-06	Posted on Wednesday, November 04, 2009 - 15:22 GMT well...when Jan's right, she's right! but FWIW there IS a company that produces sound reinforcement speakers with planar drivers for tweets. The company is called SLS audio, and has dabbled in home audio as well. http://www.slsloudspeakers.com

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