Advice needed on operas/classical music
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Operafan | Seeking advice on a speaker system and receiver for operas and classical music (DVD & CDs). Prefer fidelity of live performance w/ min distortion. Budget is around $1500 for speakers (w/ surround, and subw) and $300-500 for a receiver. Reading from the posting, opinions are split all over. I was recommended for Klipsch R35 series. 1) Is this a good system for my interest? 2) If so, what receiver to go with it? 3) If not, what other options? Advice much appreciated. |
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Hawk | Operafan: If you want "live performance" fidelity, you will not find it in a mass market receiver. I suggest two which are truly high fidelity and are within your price range, but they are not easy to get. Also, most receivers in your price range use chip sets (ICs) rather than quality transistors and the sound quality suffers as a result. Receivers: 1. NAD T742 (MSRP of $649, but can be purchased from Saturday Audio Exchange for $449). I compared this receiver head to head with a half a dozen other receivers in it price range and above and it simply smoked the others. With DVDs, things like conversations in the background were plainly audible, whereas other receivers muffled them, or didn't produce them at all. On musical CDs, I could hear the difference between a Baldwin and a Yamaha piano, a toe tapping to the music by the performer and other similar nuances that I never heard before. It is a stunning sound from such a modest receiver. Check it out on the Deals Page at www.saturdayaudio.com. 2. Outlaw Audio 1050 receiver ($499, available only from www.outlawaudio.com). Another great sounding receiver that puts a premium on sound fidelity over "features" (unheard of among the mass market receiver makers). Although not as "warm" sounding as the NAD, it is clean and precise and presents a wonderful soundstage. Speakers: I am not personally fond of Klipsch speakers myself, as I don't care for their horn tweeter, but their build and design quality is undeniable. But we all hear things differently and I would support you getting what you like for speakers. However, if I may suggest a couple of alternative systems, I would recommend the following, not knowing if you want towers or bookshelfs: 1. PSB Image speakers: Get the Image 4Ts for the front mains, an 8C center and a pair of Image 1Bs for the rear, along with the PSB Subsonic 5 or Image Subsonic 6 subwoofer. I have priced this system at elegantaudiovideo.com and it comes in right at $1500 (with the bigger subwoofer--you save $100 with the smaller Model 5 sub). 2. NHT speakers: Specifically, get the SB-3s for the front mains, an SC-1 center and a pair of the SB-1s for the rears and a NHT SW10 II subwoofer. This I can also find for about $1500 at Kief's (www.kiefs.com). Very smooth speaker system that will be a good match for your musical taste. Finally: Now, if you really want the ultimate opera system on a budget and will spend just a bit more, get an NAD 752 receiver, which can be had for $699 (from either Kiefs or Saturday Audio) and order a pair of Magnepan MMGs from Magnepan (www.magnepan.com) for $550 (shipping included). You can fill out the 5.1 system later when Magnepan releases its matching center and surround speakers next month. I guarantee you will feel like you are in the Met listening to your favorite operas. The sense of realism is unbelievable, and must be heard to understand what I mean. If this interests you at all, check out a Magnepan MG12 at your local Magnepan dealer--it will sound very, very close to a MMG. I hope this helps. |
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John A. | Excellent advice from Hawk, as always. Electrostatic speakers, for example Quad ESLs, have always had a strong following amongst opera and classical music listeners, and the Magnepan recommendation is in line with that. The traditional reservation about electrostatic speaker bass extension no longer applies with the active subwoofer of a 5.1 system. However, If you prefer a complete, conventional, magnetic-coil speaker set in one go, available now, KEF should be a serious consideration on musical grounds. The Q5 AV system at about that price has large front speakers, and claims good bass extension without the need for an additional powered subwoofer. BTW I have been tempted by several opera DVDs but they seem absurdly expensive in my locality, and still manage to shoe-horn in the sound with Dolby Digital alone, always inferior in sound quality to DTS. |
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Ooperafan | Hawk - thanks so much for the very professional and convincing advice. I appreciate a lot. You got me deeply interested in the MMG system - and I just read some custoemr reviews at http://reviews.iwon.com/pscAudioReview/Magnepan,MMG/PRD_120044_1594crx.aspx A few questions came to my mind which makes me wonder what your advice would be among MMG, Image, and NHT: 1. The critical placement spots. I have little akids and no much freedom to place speakers 2.5 -3 feet away from the wall. 2. The sweetspot seems to be really small and one has to sit there just enjoy the music. But my family life style would be putting classcal and operas as environmental music whatever else we do - seldom sitting at one spot for music. 3. Low frequency inadequacy. I listen to a lot of Wagner. This can be a problem. You mentioned next month they start selling center, and suround speakers. Are they selling any subs? There are some quite bad reviews that put the above concerns at very crucial points. So, to make decisioneasier, how would you rank the three types of speakers that best suit my interest and style? I mean Image, NHT, and MMG. And perhaps Quad ESL and KEF as John recommended. With all the above subs, other than NAD 752, is H/K 230 or 525/530 good choice as well? Thanks much again. John A - you mentioned opera DVDs are expensive at your locaiton. Go internet shopping - I use Yahoo Shopping and dvdpricesearch.com to check prices constantly. |
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Hawk | Operafan: I never cease to be amazed at what I call the "urban legends of audio." Some of your concerns are minor and some are simply not true, IMO. First off, the magnepans are without doubt the best speaker you can get for your stated interest. I also have a shallow room that precludes placement 2.5-3 feet out in the room. Instead, I put my Maggies up against the wall with just a slight toe-in and the sound was wonderful. Secondly, I also had plenty of good bass. If you look at the Magnepan web page, the MMGs have a low frequency extension down to 50 Hz, +/- 3 db, which is as good or better than many speakers recommended on this page. Now, if my memory serves, the lowest note on a cello is 64 hz, which the Maggies can do w/o batting an eyelash. Third, I am not one of those audiophiles who sweats getting the right sweet spot. The beauty of the Magnepans is that even when they are not in their sweet spot, the sound is still better than anything I have heard, IMHO. When you are in the sweet spot, however, it is a religeous experience. (My sweet spot, putting the tweeter ribbon on the outside, was the width of our 84" sofa, BTW). I say that the sweet spot is unimportant because my in-laws came to visit me for 8 days last May. They are classical musicians and they look down on reproduced music--they find my passion with stereos to be amusing (after all, it isn't the real thing). Like my wife, they look upon a stereo as something for background music only. However, we spent almost the whole time they were here listening to my Maggies. They never sat in the sweet spot, but marvelled at how realistic the sound was. My father in law spent a lot of time quizzing me on how much they cost and what kind of electronics it would take to drive them. This is such a turnaround for them as they have never cared for listening to my music collection for the last 20 years. I think what you read as criticisms tend to come from people who are not open to the different technology that the Magnepans represent. Now to get back to your questions, the Magnepans are easily the best speaker for your interest, IMO. I would rank the NHTs second and the PSBs third. Quad ESLs run about $7K here and are not as good as the Maggies. The KEF Q series is a nice speaker, but for Opera, I would prefer the B+W 600 series. Neither of the H/Ks are capable of running 4 ohm speakers, so that would eliminate them from running the Magnepans (a quite a few other speakers, too). I like the H/Ks, and they are a fine product, but they do not have the clarity of the NAD or Outlaw receivers I have recommended. In fact, nothing else is as clean as these receivers without spending a bunch more money. Magnepan doesn't have a subwoofer, but I have a number I would recommend. Check out the Velodyne CHT10 subwoofer here for a good description: http://ww1.onecall.com/PID_12835.htm but you can get it cheaper from Kiefs (~$320). |
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John A. | Hawk continues to amaze and inform. Magenpan better than Quad ESL? Whew! I must hear these... I just wish to second Hawk's comment about bass. Wagner used deep sonorities, but if you look at the frequencies even of his orchestra, you are not missing much with 50 Hz -3 dB roll-off. The LFE channel is really for low-frequency special effects; structure-borne sounds, breaking waves, thunder, collapsing buildings etc. and there is not so much of that even in Bayreuth. It is the movie-makers who want to shake your floor and internal organs, and scare domestic pets. What you hear in a concert hall from the lower range of deep instruments like the double bass is their upper harmonics. Excepting organ, where deep notes are also structure-borne. Unless someone particularly wants the physical effect of sitting right on top of the percussion section, I would think the kind of clarity Hawk describes should be a higher priority. |
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Operafan | Thanks to you both - Hawk and John. You guys are awesome. Yes I defintely want to go with Megnepan. I am going to visit a local dealer to try MG12 out. Now a question for Hawk - the store salesman said that MG12 is a much better one for sound dispersion and low frequency end clarity. I believe that's a true statement and it has to be. The question is, with that more expensive unit (they sell MG12 at $1095/pair), is it worth the audio gains? Especially thinking of the possibility of completing the suround system (MC1 for rears $750/pair, and CC3 for center for $1000). It's a pretty pricy system. What'd you think, Hawk? Also, the saleman said that Velodyne CHT 10 won't be as effective as their ULD series of subs. But perhaps more expensive. For receivers - I just found out that NAD 752c is about out of stock. NAD 753 is going to come out the end of this month, and it's going to be $100 more, with one more channel added and some other small enhancements. Hawk - PSB Image package you described can be bought for $1375 on a mailorder site. |
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AnotherOperaFan | Operafan and Hawk I myself is a opera and classical music fan too. Hawk's suggestion made me seriously think about NAD 752. I found on the web that NAD 752+ NAD T712 DVD player for $799. Is it a good deal? Also, i went to a local dealer and he compared Marantz 5300 and Rotel(basic model for $1,299) and Rotel was so smooth and full-sounded whereas Marantz produced a zinging sound. I know that there is huge price difference, but should I get Rotel or NAD T-752? Even though I never tested NAT 752, I totally count on Hawk's recommendation. Of course, if i decide to get NAd then i will find a local dealer to taste it. Any suggestions? |
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Hawk | Guys: Thank you for the kind words. I do try to be as honest and as helpful as I can. John A.: I have dealer near me carrying the Quad ESLs, so I am aquainted with the sound and I do think the Maggies are superior, largely because they are faster, but they are very similar in sound. I don't know whay the Quads are so much more here. Opera Fans: Magnepans are a legend among US audiophiles--Stereophile, the bible for the true audiophiles did a survey of their readers about three or four years back and discovered that something like 72% of them owned Maggies, even though they hadn't featured Maggies with a review in over three years. So the word of mouth was the way most heard of these speakers. Another thing they learned was that most had had a pair of Magnepans and then traded up for bigger ones at some point. Now the point of this is that Magnepan realized that if they could get more people to try their product, they could probably get them to trade up later on. That is how they convinced their dealers to go along with this factory direct offer. There is no way the MMGs could be sold by the dealers at the price the factory is offering them. I have no doubt that the MG 12s are a bit better, and the MG12s come in more finishes, etc. But the sound of the MMGs is stunning at this price. Easily the best speakers I have ever owned and I have owned a lot. Now, the MG12s go down to 45 Hz (as opposed to the MMGs 50 Hz), are a bit taller and a tad wider, and come in more wood finishes. But it is essentially the same speaker as the MMG. I do think they are both worth the money (especially given the Wife Acceptance Factor as my wife didn't like the finishes for the MMGs, but loved the cherry on the MG12s). But the big reason to step up to the MG12s is not as much for better sound as the improvement is quite small, but because the MG12s have a more pleasing appearance and that may make them worth more (however, the next step up after that to the MG 1.6s is a real improvement, but that is for when your ship comes in). Now, we have had a confirmation that the MMGs have been so successful that magnepan is going to offer a complete system factory direct, that will match the MMGs and will not be as expensive as the MGMC1s and the CC3. However, those pieces are not out yet, so I don't know anyhting more about them and don't know the pricing. We are told it will be before the end of the year. Nevertheless, I was lusting after an MMG/CC3/MGMC1 system for myself--I think it is a killer system. Pricey, yes, but not for the quality you get. It is actually quite a value when you hear some of the much more expensive systems I have heard that cost two or three times as much and don't sound half as good. I suggested the PSB system as something that would keep you in your budget, Opera Fan, and I suggested the MMGs as an alternative if you were willing to spend more. No other speaker can match the sheer beauty of the Maggies on vocal music which is the reason I suggested it, but only you know whether you can or should make this reach. I would merely suggest you try out the MG12s for yourself to see whether you think the sound is worth spending the extra money over the PSB system. The PSB is a fine system and a good value, but the Maggies are a big step up and worth every penny. Whether your budget wil allow you to do it is for you to decide. I can't comment on the ULD series of subs--I haven't heard them, so I can't opine. I do think the Velodyne is a great value for your sub and you would have to spend at least $150 more to get anything better (a Hsu Research VTF-2 for $489). Yes, I think that the 752/512 bundle is a good deal, Another Opera Fan. The list price on the 752 alone is $899 and typically goes for $699 among competitive dealers, so you are getting a pretty good DVD/CD player for a mere $100. If you need a CD player, this should suffice. Now the Rotel is a very fine receiver. It does have a different sound than the NAD. It is leaner and crisper sounding and does not have nearly the same power as the NAD. I know a number of my friends prefer its sound to the NAD, which has a warmer, more mellow sound. Both receivers are equally adept at resolving the sound, that is, taking the digital information and converting it to an good analog signal. But they sound very different. I recommend you listen to both an NAD and a Rotel to see what you think. You may prefer the Rotel and you should get what you like. However, I personally prefer the sound of the NAD, especially for these speakers which are very fast and precise on their own. Good luck guys! I hope this helps. |
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Operafan #1 | Hawk - thanks again for your thorough analysis. Since Mag has a one-year trade-in policy, I would start with MMG speakers, waiting for matching suround speakers to come out. Re Kiefs store (in Lawrence KS), actually it's just 40 min drive away from me in Kansas City. Their order price for the sub and NAD receiver are both higher than what you quoted, I think I have to come to the store and talk with them. The other Opera Fan - your NAD receiver + DVD/CD player is a good deal as Hawk has said. The NAD 752 is already out of stock from both Kiefs and the Saturday Audio (I called both as Hawk had mentioned them). They are only selling NAD 753 new models soon. I'd appreciate if you can share where you can still get 752. I really do not care for 753 with one more channel. |
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Hawk | Opera Fan 1: Sorry about the prices at Kiefs if I was wrong--I know their policy is to sell at 20% off, give or take $5. My math may have been off. If you do go over there, talk to Ed, who has sold me gear for over 25 years and is a super guy, too. For another dealer for the 752, try calling Yawa at 888-818-9889. They are still showing the 752 on their website, so I think it is likely they still have it. Although the website shows it at full price, a friend of mine called and was quoted a price of $720, I think. Good luck |
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AnotherOperaFan | Hawk, I am sorry to bother you agian, however, i have a few more questions. I've shopped around for a month or so, i now have quite a list of speakers auditioned. 1. my brother-in-law has Paradigm monitor 90p,cc-370,ADP-370 with PW-2200, so I am well aware of this system. 2. I listened to B&W CM6 set, and knew that it is well over 3 grand. But I really enjoyed it with Wagner's Parsifal. 3. Go with MMG, CC3, and MC1 or MMG with the coming matching system. But the problem is, i will never get to know this system, because the nearest dealer from my home town is over 1000 miles away. 4. Just go with the budget system from internet-only dealer. I remember that you suggested Ascend which can be had for $1,300. As I have said, i am listening to music everyday for 2-3 hour, and watching app. 2 movies a week. I am sure that i will go with NAD receiver, what do you think i should go with one of the above? You cannot imagine how much time you saved for a newbie like me. Thanks. For Operafan #1, i found that combined purchase deal from the following website; https://dmc-electronics.com/Default.htm Hope this helps, and please continue to update you choices and results. |
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Hawk | Another Opera Fan: I think I can solve the Magnepan problem. Everything is available directly from Magnepan for those who do not have a dealer nearby, so you should think of them as an internet-only dealer. Now, what I suggest is that you get the MMGs directly from Magnepan and use the sixty day trial to determine if you like the sound. You will really need most of that time to break them in properly, anyways. Use the MMGs for two channel listening, which is what I did, to determine if they are what you want. If you are then satisfied with them, you can then get the rest of the system directly from Magnepan, even the MC1s, if that is the way you would want to go. One of the beautiful things about Magnepan is that all of their speakers are essentially the same. They just cut the mylar flat panels larger for the bigger models, but it is the exact same driver, so the sound is remarkably consistent across the product line. No problems with "timbre matching" as they all have the same drivers (unlike many speaker lines where the speaker drivers vary from one model to the next). I have discovered people either become devoted Maggie owners or they don't. If you love the sound of the Maggies, nothing else will do, so it is worth the time to discover if you love them. That would be my top recommendation. If you find you don't love them, just send them back at the end of the trial period and get the next speaker system on your list. The other three options are actually quite good. I like the Paradigms and the B+Ws very much. The Ascends are a superb value, but perhaps not quite as refined as the other choices, but a good alternative, nevertheless. I could really complicate your life by also suggesting systems of NHT SB-3s, Dynaudio Audience 42s, or Krix KDX-Ms, as well. If you have a dealer nearby that sells any of these, I would check them out. Finally, if you have any problems getting a 752 as it is nearing the end of its model run, you can always get a 753 when they come out later this month or you could get a 762, which can be had for about $1K. The 762 has more power and some other nice features. Good luck! |
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Operafan #1 | Hawk - again - thanks for the info. Opera Fan 2 - you are I are kind of in the same situation. I plan to visit the Mag local store and will let you know about my perception. I totally trust Hawk's professional viewpoints, and want to feel it myself. I will bring my Ring cycle DVDs with me (I have both the Bayreuth/Boulez set and the Met/Levine set) and the CD versions by Solti, Boehm and Karajan with me. And I will also take a Karajan Adagio CD album, a Kissin piano album (with a Steinway) and the Schiff's Bach WTC album (with a Borsendolfer piano) to try out. The above list should cover quite a big sound spectrum and different texture qualities. I had an earlier choice of Klipsch 35 series with RW12 sub; Nebraska Furniture Mart is willing to sell me for $1720, a great price that beats all stores including online shopping. And they have H/K receivers. But I intend to follow Hawk's advice. Simply because it's so hard to get any hand-on experience in classical music domain. And most of the postings here are real good sound fans, not necessarily classical and opera fans. Will definitely keep you informed here. |
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Hawk | Guys: I also found the T 752 at the following website: http://elegantaudiovideo.com/recnad.htm Hope this helps. |
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AnotherOperaFan | Hawk and OperaFan #1 Thank you so much for your inputs. The problem i had with Paradigm and B&W was even though i liked them the most compared to any other speakers out there that i auditioned-these include Polk, Klipsch, Monitor Audio, Infinity, PSB, Jamo, to name a few...- however i felt something was missing in it. When i tried those speakers I listened Wagner Parsifal and Chopin Piano Concerto(for this, mostly because the recording condition is not that good), and Bach Cello Suite. But then, i just couldn't describe it but it is not that real to me, sounded soft and detailed but not full of real senses something like that. But, the description of Maggies(gradually, i came to use the affectionate name for Magnepan) by Hawk really attracted me. If that is the case, i would certaninly love them. To OperaFan #1, like i said there is no Magnepan dealer near here so please do so, and let me know as soon as you try them. If you satisfy then i will give it a try. I am planning to get them at the end of next week. Thank you both for your valuable suggestions. Nice Journey. |
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Operafan #1 | Hawk - I read some of the postings for DVD/CD player etc, but the list is simply too long. Your advice please: I need to find a matching DVD/CD player, and possibly a cassette player as I tape all and every MET broadcasts on PBS from Dec to April. The DVD/CD player will mostly be for CD, but someday I will match a TV with it. I have two TV units and two DVD/CD players (one Hitachi and one Panasonic). Neither player can play PAL system DVDs (I received some online ordered DVDs in PAL although they are marked as NTSC). So one hope is the player can play both systems. And with 5 CD/DVD holder (I am not keen on 50/100 CD storage within the unit). For cassette player, I saw at local Best Buy one sony unit costing about $150 seems to be good enough. My basic requirements is to be able to do auto-continuous recording for both cassettes since we may go out the whole afternoon, and if I use 120 min cassettes, I can tape 4 hours opera broadcast. Thanks in advance. |
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John A. | I have 240 V, European NAD T532 DVD-player. Apart from performing so well, it has a switch on the back for PAL/NTSC/Auto. Even the PAL setting (my default) also plays NTSC just fine. It is also multi-region; the dealer can fix that if you ask. Recommended. The young and talented Bryn Terfel is finally booked for Wotan in Berlin in 2004, I read. I have always assumed Wagner is for people who understand German, and, alas, I don't. |
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Anonymous | John A., I am trying to get NAD T512 as my DVD player, and i was wondering if that could play DVD+R and DVD+RW too. Compared to NAD T532 is it much lower quality player? Thanks. |
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John A. | Anonymous, I was set to buy the T512, but the dealer convinced me the T532, which looks identical, is better under the hood. I think he was right, and I made a good decision. If you look at the standard spec (frequency response; signal-to-noise etc) the two models are the same. But if you look at the tech spec, the T532 has the following and the T512 does not: - Audiophile quality 96kHz/24 bit Crystal DAC and Burr-Brown Op-amps for analogue outputs - 4 x 10 bit 54MHz Video DAC - Progressive scan with 3:2 pull down (film detection mode, NTSC 120V version only) - MPEG audio decoder (230V version only) So I think anyone in N America or Japan is stuck with NTSC, Operafan 1. Sorry, I don't know about DVD+R and DVD+RW. You can obtain further information, and even the user manuals, from the NAD web site. |
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Operafan #1 | John and all who follow this thread - I posted under another thread updating my experience yesterday with Mag 1.6: - ... I went to a local dealer for Mag, and listened to Mag1.6. But the store did not have NAD T 752 I was looking for, and they used ARCAM receiver instead. Was a bit disappinted at how difficult to bring up the volume and to feel the sheer emotional journey when I tried my CD pieces Me Vlast by Smetana/Karajan, Der Ring Gotterdamerung' s Siegfred's Funeral March and others. Kissin's Busoni/Bach Chaconne was Ok, showing enough sonority of a Steinway. But Richter's Bach WTC was rather muffled, maybe due to its earlier recording technology. To be honest, I liked the clarity of sound for the most of time (I listened for about 40 min altogether there). But was kind of bothered by the low end presentation fidelity. If 1.6 is like this, how would MMG be like? Hawk - sorry that I still have doubts after this much of your education - we discussed under a thread I started. Is it the ARCAM receiver that made Mag sound less superior? ____ Hawk - comments? Anybody has experience with ARCAM receiver? |
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John A. | Here is the link to that thread. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/4251.html |
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Operafan #1 | John - u r right; I thought about that. You know people in USA tend to think that USA is the center of the universe   . I will post my observations back here; I agree this thread is easier to be spotted. |
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Hawk | Operafan#1: I was diappointed to hear that the Magnepan 1.6s were demo'ed using an Arcam receiver. While Arcam makes a very good receiver, it has two flaws that make it unsuitable to drive 1.6s: First, it is not powerful enough. The Arcam is a true 70 wpc x 5 receiver, but it is a ittle light to attempt to drive the 1.6s. Alvin Gold of Home Cinema Choice described the Arcam as: "the AVR200 remains a relatively low spec receiver. The power output is on the low side, though in medium size rooms, the Arcam will drive loudspeakers with a sensitivity of 88dB/W or higher to levels that should satisfy all but the real turbo fan." Unfortunately, the 1.6s are no where near an 88db/W speaker--more like 84, so the 1.6s need a bunch more power--more like 125-150 wpc IMO. Those speakers really soak up power, but you saw how big they are--that is a large panel that needs plenty of power to move--the MMGs are much smaller and need much less power. Second, the Arcam has a rolled off bottom end. This is partly due to its somewhat undersized capacitors which can drain very quickly when using music that has some serious bass. All in all, you didn't get to hear the Maggies with the right amp for them. If you want to hear them again, listen using a much larger amp. Although the 752 is rated at only 80 wpc, it has a dynamic power rating of over 300 wpc when driving the maggies. It also has much larger capcitors than the Arcam, so it will sound more like a good 125 wpc amp than it will the 70 wpc Arcam receiver. |
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Operafan #1 | Hawk - thanks for your explanation of the ARCAM. I also read your reply posting under Fred's thread. Both of the points make a lot of sense to me, as I acutely felt it there. For future upgradability from MMG if I buy this for now to 12 or 1.6, will NAD T 752/3 be powerful enough to drive all Mags? From your description about its dynamic power this shouldn't be a probem. But just want to confirm with you. Thanks! |
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Hawk | Yes, I think the 752 has the dynamic power to drive some of the bigger Maggies. Looking forward to hearing your description of the Maggies with an adequate amp. I will warn you, however, that this system is very revealing, so any recordings with a lot of tape noise on it will be heard. Take in some very clean recordings. All the best! |
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Operafan #1 | Not being neglecting the posting board, the local seller did not have NAD in stock over the weekend. They may have the end of this week. |
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