Sound upgrade ideas?
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New member Username: JosephinePost Number: 6 Registered: Feb-08 | Hello, I am happy with my 1 year old combination of Arcam Solo Movie 2.1 and the Dynaudio Focus 140 speakers. Especially when looking at movies. But, I have the impression that for music only, the speakers could do better. When I turn up the volume listening to jazz, I sometimes have the idea that the sounds loses some body and harden somewhat. I don't use a subwoofer and do not use stands. Is it possible to attach an extra amplifier to the Solo? Or is it better to have Solo traded-in? I would not like to loose on the investment, 2250 EUR for the Solo Movie. Cheers J |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13151 Registered: Dec-04 | J, your time and effort will be better rewarded by looking at what your room, or listening space, is doing for you. A greter response from your room will let you keep the volume down to something more comfortable for the Arcam. Those Dyn's can do amazing things in a good room. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10510 Registered: Feb-05 | The Solo will never get the best out of the Dyn's. You will need much more amp to get the job done. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13156 Registered: Dec-04 | Well at least I was polite, LOL! The 140's have been played on 5,000 dollar amps and sounded very good. I hate to say poor investment, but the Arcam may need another look. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13157 Registered: Dec-04 | Putting the Dyn's on proper stands will just kill you J, if you are maybe unhappy now. The stands should be heavy. Maybe Frank A. will stop by to look here, we usually defer to Frank for these pieces, as he is keen to them. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13158 Registered: Dec-04 | Or maybe not. Hmmm... You might maximize the strengths od the 140's(that being their resonance/cabinet) and helping your room to lessen the load on the Arcam. Do you boost the bass a bit now? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3425 Registered: May-05 | I'd suggest first getting good stands and playing with speaker placement. That'll be a minimal financial investment. The Arcam Solo stuff is very good sounding for its application, but its not enough to make the 140s worth while IMO. According to Arcam's website, it has pre-amp outs, so you can add an external amplifier. That may be your best bet. I'm not sure where you are and what you have available, and what your budget is to start recommending anything. However, your system will only be as good as the room its in. I'm not sure what your speakers are on, but I'm pretty confidant that its compromised. Good stands are as much a part of the speaker as anything else. Improperly placed speakers don't stand a chance to sound good either. Just some food for thought. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13160 Registered: Dec-04 | Stands and placement, then look at the rest. |
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New member Username: JosephinePost Number: 8 Registered: Feb-08 | Nuck, They now stand on a kind of silicon units. I will attach a picture of the situation. J  |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13849 Registered: May-04 | . You've set them on top of what will be a resonant box once they start playing music? . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 642 Registered: Jul-07 | If the side and back walls look like the front wall then it is certainly feasible the "hardening" you mentioned is room related. Vast expanses of gyproc and hardwoord floors (although I see you have an area rug) can create some accoustical nasties. And, as JV points out, you probably have about the worst possible base for the speakers in that cabinet. First question....how much are you willing to fiddle with speaker placement and potentially room changes/treatments ? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13166 Registered: Dec-04 | Stands first, so as to be able to get the Dyn's away from the rear wall, and 3' out into the room. Then placement, placement. As Jan alluded to, the speakers on that big resonant unit will never expose the best parts of your system. And the Solo would be better supported with some help, too, but speakers very first. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10519 Registered: Feb-05 | Beautiful room Josephine. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3778 Registered: Sep-04 | Hi Josephine, I'm inclined to think that the Solo Movie 2.1 is not really a good enough source for the speakers. It should work reasonably well, but the speakers are capable of a lot more than the unit is capable of giving them, and this doesn't just relate to power rating. It's everything from the quality of the CD section through to the power amps. That said, it appears you haven't optimized what you have to the best of its ability. I think you could do far better with correct positioning etc. The photo shows a lovely room (great aesthetic) but the speakers are in a completely inappropriate location for the following reasons: * They're way too low - the speakers should be at head height when you're seated. * They're far too close to the rear wall. This will cause a flattening of perspective, over-emphasis of bass and a hardening of vocals, particularly when the volume is turned up (since this excites the wall behind it). * The 140s are capable of significant bass - that unit will resonate, even with the vibrapods underneath them. To fix this, you need stands, not too light (but not particularly heavy). The speakers could be placed on the stands on either side of the unit with their rears about 45cm from the wall. That will help things enormously. If you can't have them so far from the wall, you can try using the foam bungs they come with, but my experience is that the foam bungs really compromise sound quality by pinching the midrange (vocals particularly) which can also harden the sound. My only concern with this advice is the couch on the left hand side being in the way of the speaker on the left when you do this. As for using a more powerful amplifier, yes this is possible, but I'm just not sure it's appropriate. What you really want are speakers designed to work against a rear wall which are quite difficult to find. Spendor SA-1 or Naim n-SATs come to mind, but they're both very different to the 140s. Finally, does the Arcam get hot? If it does, this is a sure sign that the 140s are making it work hard. That will not help matters and would be the only situation where I'd suggest another power amplifier, but my comments above still stand (pun unintended but appropriate...). Hope this helps, Frank. |
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New member Username: JosephinePost Number: 9 Registered: Feb-08 | Frank, You gave me quite some things to think over and to experiment with. I think I'll start with the positioning first. Although I hate stands, maybe I'll find some that I'll get used to. Thanks for your time to dive into my living room :-) I'll get back as soon as I can share some results. Bye J. |
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New member Username: JosephinePost Number: 10 Registered: Feb-08 | Guys, I have taken some first steps. Take a look.     |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 915 Registered: Jun-08 | J, That looks great - how does it sound now, just with the stands added? You'll now need to experiment with pulling the speakers a little more into the room / forward. You can also experiment with toe-in - pointing the speakers a little inward toward your main listening position. Start with just a tad little bit - about 5 to 10% and listen to hear if there are any benefits. How high are those stands? What type/brand are they? |
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Bronze Member Username: JosephinePost Number: 11 Registered: Feb-08 | George, the difference is so big that I am a bit ashamed that I put them on the cabinet in the first place. I found them on the internet, second hand, 50 euros. The brand is standesign. (They have sharp spikes, so I need to find some protection for the floor). But the important thing is, music is present, detailed, nice. Very nice. How much inward would be ideal? I will experiment further. What Frank might notice is that we have changed the couch, made more space on the left. Not 100% ideal yet, should be an open low-end sofa on that side, but hey, we are getting there.  J. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 655 Registered: Jul-07 | Excellent Josephine. Small things can make big differences. That's a wonderful living space. Do you have less hardness in the music now when you turn the volume up ? Less/more bass ? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13266 Registered: Dec-04 | Jo, we weren't just kidding you, eh? The stands are funky and your living space looks very Euro-nice. You might be surprised by little changes in the speaker placement/toe-in. It is a personal thing, but if you have your roomie make slight moves in toe, while you sit in the best spot, you will likely find a placement that makes you very very happy, and maybe a bit surprised. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 916 Registered: Jun-08 | Great to hear Jo. Experimentation is the best to find out what the right distance and toe-in is, all rooms are different but starting with 1.5 ft from the back wall and going out from there would be reasonable. You can find a right balance between form and function for the room - not many would like the speakers way out in the room but sometimes they sound the best that way...there may be some compromising. Nuck suggestion is the best - have a friend, roomy, signficant other move the speakers a little here and a little there while you sit in the sweet listening position. Your ears will tell you what's best. Closing your eyes and focusing on the changes while the speakers are ever so slightly moved works for me. If you go with a little heavier stand - possibly sand loaded you may hear even more improvement but what you've done for now is more than enough to start enjoying what those speakers have to offer. Where are you located in Europe? Just for interests sake. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2728 Registered: Jun-07 | Beautiful place Josephine. Nice setup too. |
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Bronze Member Username: JosephinePost Number: 12 Registered: Feb-08 | Thanks for the advice gents. We live in Holland by the way. - question: the stands also have spikes reverse up to the speakers. Is that normal? So that the speakers rest on spikes themselves? That causes some ugly little hols in the Dynwood! |
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Gold Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 1178 Registered: Dec-06 | Try some coins under the spikes, Josephine. Glad to hear you're making progress. It sure beats buying new gear only to find that you get similar results as the old gear. The room looks cool, by the way. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2929 Registered: Feb-07 | Very nice room. Stryvn, coins under the spikes is a good idea. I'm getting hardwood installed in my living room this weekend and my wife is concerned with the spikes on my speaker stands. I was going to use the typically Canadian solution of using upsidedown beer caps, but coins will look nicer ;-) |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13282 Registered: Dec-04 | Not to mention that proper spikes will pierce a cap... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13283 Registered: Dec-04 | Loonies look nice polished, but are subject to thievery, specially when revisiting the beer retailer. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2931 Registered: Feb-07 | Toonies look even nicer, having that two-tone metallic finish, but are twice as much prone to thievery. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13286 Registered: Dec-04 | I bet Jo is bored with this. What is your next step Josephine??? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2932 Registered: Feb-07 | Jo has left the building.... |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3794 Registered: Sep-04 | Josephine, Looks good! I think you'll find that the upward facing spikes can be removed. There are two ways to support speakers, either by decoupling them from the stand (upward facing spikes) or by coupling them to the stand (remove the upward facing spikes and stick the speaker to the stand using blutac). Personally i usually get better results with blutac (and it doesn't put holes in the speaker), but you never know! You can put coins on the floor to save it from the spikes. Alternatively there are floor protectors available from most hifi dealers. The ones we sell are made by a company called PureSound. They come in sets of 6 and 8. I'm sure you can also find floor protectors on the 'net. As for toe-in, well, just play around a bit. If you're happy with what you have then don't worry too much, but a bit of playing around will pay dividends. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 493 Registered: Oct-07 | RE: floor spike protectors. I use dense felt chair leg tips. They are about 22mm in diameter, maybe 3mm thick with a brass collar which is intended to be driven into the end of a chair leg. In my application, the collar is used to center the spike. They are non-marring and allow a limited amount of 'sliding' to fine tune the location of my sub. My sub weighs about 30kg. Very cleanly styled room, too. |
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Bronze Member Username: JosephinePost Number: 13 Registered: Feb-08 | For a next step, I could add a power amplifyer? Any suggestions? What about adding Musical Fidelity's Superchargers? Or a sub? Cheers, J. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 950 Registered: Jun-08 | The power amplifier will probably provide gains in your system. MF has got some good products from what I hear, I'm just not that familiar with them to comment. I'd stay away from a sub for now until you get th 2-channel dividends maxed. Subs are nice for bass support but you run into other problems with properly integrating them, finding the optimum location etc. Plus, they take additional room which is against the minimalist decor you've got going. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3804 Registered: Sep-04 | MF have already discontinued the Superchargers...! Arcam's own power amplifiers are pretty good in my opinion (unsung heroes actually) and will obviously match the sound presentation. The P38 is a nicely powerful amplifier which will drive the 140s well. The monoblock P1 is very powerful and will grab a hold of those 140s by the short'n'curlies! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3031 Registered: Feb-07 | MF discontinued the Superchargers? How come? |
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Bronze Member Username: JosephinePost Number: 14 Registered: Feb-08 | Frank would you prefer the P1's over Cyrus Mono X? (my dad says we should consider Cyrus too, he always talks about his old Cyrus2). Can you start with one and later add another of these things? Josie |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 991 Registered: Jun-08 | Frank, frank....FRANK? |
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Bronze Member Username: JosephinePost Number: 15 Registered: Feb-08 | :-) Or anybodt else who can comment of course. I would like to have some advice which mono blocks are very much adviced to listen to. The P1's cost E 1.799,-- a piece in Holland. Rega's Exon 1.299,--. The Cyrus X Power 1.599,--. What I have learned about the X power is that you can start with buying one as an integrated thing and later add another and use it mono. Cool for people with limited budget at the moment. Like me. :-) J |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1007 Registered: Jun-08 | Sorry, Josephine, but I don't know much of anything on the sound of those amps but have heard Bryston and like their neutral and clear sound though some find it a little hard/analytical vs. liquid/warm. They won't be value priced out where you live. You need to be concerned about synergy with the Arcam you have - if that's what you plan to use as the preamp. Synergy is very important. You will be adding another variable into your system which could mean hit and miss - you are on your way to getting the audiophile bug. The dealer who sold you the Arcam/Dynaudio, does he recommend any amps? Might be a place to start auditioning. It would be better to hear you pre and speakers with any amp in the dealers soundroom to get a feel for the improvements that may be had. |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1008 Registered: Jun-08 | Oh, my mistake, your dealer could be a he or she. I've only found a few ladies that have any real interest in the tinkering that goes along with audio but I should never assume present company considered. |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1026 Registered: Jun-08 | Just an article I came across on you speaks Josephine. They talk about stand heights, toe-in etc. Happy reading. http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/506dynaudio/ |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3816 Registered: Sep-04 | Sorry guys, been manically busy... David, that's what MF do. They introduce stuff on short production runs it seems. I must admit I was very surprised to hear that though. Josephine, Cyrus make good kit. The MonoXs are very good amplifiers and easier to house being small shoebox affairs. Would I match them to an Arcam? Probably not. The Cyrus presentation is different to the Arcam's, and similarly different to that of the old Cyrus 2 which was a warmer presentation. It's good kit, just not necessarily a synergistic one. I'd stay in the family. The X-power does have that nice facility of allowing you to change its modus operandi and I can't argue with the build-up approach. If you want to do this, try before you buy. Note: the X-power is nothing like a MonoX, even when souped up with a PSX-R and used in mono-mode. It's a good power amp but the MonoX is a great power amp (as is the Arcam P1). I wouldn't go for the Regas. Although good amplifiers it's a very different presentation and almost definitely not one that would give a synergistic result with either the Dyns or the Arcam. And don't forget to get decent interconnects if you do this. I do feel that the whole point of the system is being lost though. The idea was to have something nice neat and simple, and now it's getting complicated by extra electronics and serious money being spent. Are you happy with the system or not? If you are, then just enjoy it... If not, then we can take a more ruthless look at it. MWAHAHAHA.... Regards, Frank. |
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