Bi-amping Cary 805 with KRELL FPB 600

 

New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 1
Registered: Aug-09
hi every one. this is my first post so excuse me if miss any traditional value particulary related to the tube amps:-)

Well i am intending to purchase a Cary 805 1998 model not A B or C used at around USD 4000. Heard it with B&W 802 nautilus (Same as mine) it was bi amped with parasound amp some model. It was my first encounter with a SET. oh my believe me it have been hearing to KRELL FPB 600 with KRELL KREC_HR pream , sony DVD as transport and ACCUSTIC ARTS DAC1 MK4. B|UT neverheard some thing like the CARY SET , i only rememer one thust lush lively mids which flowed and flowed out of the yellow mid.NO LISTENING FATIGUE . since that day my krells are just boring non inclusive intorvert beasts.The demo had a cheap CD player no DAC but good room treatment and Biamped with PARASOU|ND . The 50 watter SET coupled wth the 200 watter for lows was just amazing no clipping plenty of head room. OK . I intend to purchase it and bi amp with my KRELL FPB-600- M|Y QUESTIO|N IS
:-Cary 805 has RCA input
KRELL has both Balanced and RCA
My pre amp KRC HR supports one RCA and one Balance simultaneously.That means rca to CARY and balanced to KRELL. that means +3db gian to lows , and since i donot know the gain of both the amps, the phase relationship and slew rate of them i cannot tell technically if it would be a good match. Besides i am an electrical engineer so could take quite technical advise as well. \can i use a behringer active filter for lows only to adjust for gain /phase/
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13834
Registered: May-04
.

Call the respective companies. It would be just as simple for you to determine the input sensitivity and phase relationship of the two amplifiers as it would be for any of us.

The Behringer inserted in line would be a shame.


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New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 2
Registered: Aug-09
not available in pakistan here. any thoughts how it would mate . imean tonally . the idea is to get the best bass control of KRELL and sweetness of CARY with good headroom without distortion.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 464
Registered: Oct-07
Much of the technical / spec data should be available for the price of a (E-mail) stamp.

As for how it will sound? Keep in mind that nobody here has probably tried this or a similar combination.
Also, please keep in mind that, in your words,'but good room treatment' which will go a long way to making any system sound better.
Is there any help for your room? Could you try a few.......experiments.....to see if you can make any positive changes?
I'm not by any means wealthy, so this sounds like a pretty pricey experiment to me, unless you can simply borrow the goods for a couple weeks to see if your proposed setup plays well together.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13835
Registered: May-04
.

I would think the match would be like oil and water. But you have to decide for yourself. Even if someone had heard that combination, what they heard is not what you might hear.


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New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 3
Registered: Aug-09
i have heard it with cary and parasound, the parasound was just ok with it , hoping that krell would be much better in bass and mid-bass region. my point is matching sensitivity. i assume it would not be the same. so is there any way to match them. what about setting the mid&highs at other than 8 ohm tap?
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2888
Registered: Feb-07
On a very non-technical note, I've tried bi-amping with mismatched amps before (an McIntosh integrated and a pair of Bryston monoblocks). It was a mismatched, out of control mess. Just didn't sound right.
 

New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 4
Registered: Aug-09
further can any body tell till how many watts the krell fpb 600 is truly class A.
 

New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 5
Registered: Aug-09
is there any way to match the sensitivity given they are indeed different by any passive method.autoformer?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13838
Registered: May-04
.

"hoping that krell would be much better in bass and mid-bass region."


"Better" is not a word that lends itself to an easy answer. IMO it is not a good match.



"my point is matching sensitivity. i assume it would not be the same. so is there any way to match them. what about setting the mid&highs at other than 8 ohm tap?"


The Cary will develop the same voltage output into any tap. The small differences in output between taps would not be sufficient to match another amplifier.


You're on the internet, why not just email the two companies rather than ask questions that you could find out yourself?


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New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 6
Registered: Aug-09
ok . but any idea of mating cary 805 alone with b&w 802 nutilus with rated 89 db sensitvity. how dos cary compare to similar priced vtl
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13845
Registered: May-04
.

The 802's require a solid state amp with lots of current on demand. The more current, the better they sound IMO.


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Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13111
Registered: Dec-04
Agreed.

The 802D, the last time I heard them, were powered with Krell amps. It is hard to make bad music with these speakers, but the Krell's left me wanting.

Flat out, hands down best I ever heard with 802D's were Classe Omega amps @ 300 AMPS per side, with Classe componants.

Seems to me that Mike W and I heard a fair Classe/802 setup in Dallas while book shopping.
 

New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 7
Registered: Aug-09
i agree. made quite some shopping with the krell amp pre and DAC , the 802 are really good but i must admit the mid despite being very clear , sound stage wide and undisputed best bass lacks life and vividness, it something dry like , non vibrant , after an hours listening to even soft tracks the fatigue takes over, so was just trying to make best of all by trying to add carry 805 to the mids and highs, but the sensitivity and matching issues are unclear. as far as wattage is concerned i am sure 50 w for mid and highs would be quite sufficient.
 

New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 8
Registered: Aug-09
ok. so i found the sensitivity ratings from net.
Cary 1V for with zero feedback for full out put
krell 4.3 volt for rated output (balanced)

FOR 0.1 VOLT INPUT AT PRE AMP

gain at rca output= 6 db i.e 0.2V output
gain at XLR output =12 db i.e 0.4V output

NOW

1 volt input at cary would give 50 watts i.e 20 volts(rated sensitivity)
0.2 volt input to CARY(out put from preamp)would give= 4 volts at speaker terminal

4.3 volt input at krell would give 600 watts or 69.2 volts(rated sensitity)
1 volt input for krell (out put from preamp)would give =16 volts at speaker terminals
0.4 volt input for krell would give=6.4 volts at speaker terminals

SO FOR 0.1 VOLT input at pre the voltage levels at the speaker terminals would be

CARY=4 VOLTs
KRELL=6.4 VOLTs

NOW MY QUESTION IS?
the speaker has a rated senitivity of 89 db but i donot think its uniform for entire audio spectrum i,e for 20hz to 20khz . i think its at 1 khz, so would the sensitivity rating differnt for mid-high and bass inputs AND could the above voltage difference tolerable for equivalent output power for both portions of speaker?
THANKS}
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 472
Registered: Oct-07
Of course sensitivity varies. That a speaker may be -6db at 30hz tells all.....

All the above math, even if you installed attenuators on the higher voltage component to make it 'match' the lower, would still not address the basic issue.

How will the combo sound?
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2906
Registered: Feb-07
I've found in my fairly limited experience in audio that you get the best results by keeping things simple. If you have to do math or install attenuators you may be going down the wrong path.

I like the idea of an integrated with a CDP. Less cables, less fuss.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13139
Registered: Dec-04
Big amps on the floor!

Oooohhhh yeah...
 

New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 9
Registered: Aug-09
so that means i have to either jettison my KRELL for the CARY 805:-( the issue is poor resale of high end audio here so this would not be a good idea. Any way, i, still long that silky smooth and soothing vocals from cary; not sure which way to go .....As far i have gone through many forums the tube solid state combo for bi amping has been told to be a killer combination.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13165
Registered: Dec-04
Typically, the tube/sand combo is intended to be preamp(or buffer)/amp, and not a mixture of power amps.
At least that is my experience.

Mixing wildly different amps into multi-amping into a difficult speaker load sounds like a recipe for headaches and money, but it may be golden on the 3rd or 4th iteration?
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 475
Registered: Oct-07
Listen to Uncle Nuck.
He wouldn't lie to you!

If it doesn't work right off, it'll doubtless be a pain to get it to do so.
 

New member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 10
Registered: Aug-09
got my carry ..... its my carry now, gosh i cannot explain the richness of wound the warmth of midrange its simply moves your soul. no adjectives , the listening tastes may vary BUT one thing that can be felt by anyone is the listening fatigue,,,, krell gives u a hearing fatigue at normal listening leves in one hour ,,,, these babies u want to play for countless hours:-)

BTW i biamped them later, the bass seems a bit bloated at times but tracks with vocals rules supreme , i can play it louder without putting much strain on the SET, but would think of something to tame the lows. ANY suggestions how can i add i subwoofer to 2/ch as my pre krell-krc-hr has only two outputs one rca and one xlr.and both are being used. any idea about the B&W subs? how would u compare it with paradigm refernce signature series?
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 883
Registered: Dec-07
"ok . but any idea of mating cary 805 alone with b&w 802 nutilus with rated 89 db sensitvity."

First things first--NO. This would not be my choice for getting the best out of either the Carys or the B&Ws.

This bi-amping arrangement I do not understand. What is it about the Krell powering the B&Ws that does not appeal to you? Trying to make the Carys "loud" into speakers that require a lot of juice is not the right approach in my opinion. The Cary monoblocks are fabulous, but I just don't think they mate well with anything you have.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13228
Registered: Dec-04
The 802's need a subwoofer?
These are 1000w speakers for heavens sakes.
Perhaps a more sensitive subwoofer would change things, but aren't we getting pretty far away from what the 802's are made to do?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13852
Registered: May-04
.

Neil/Nuck - Do you two also talk to your dog about the where's and why's of good audio? If someone isn't listening or doesn't care to understand what is being said, why bother?

mwm seems intent on this project and they are his speakers and his amplifiers. He flits from one idea to the next like a butterfly in a daisy patch. He isn't interested in your opinions and isn't fond of doing research on the web to find answers to any of his questions - he's going to do this no matter what your input says.


Why don't you guys go give your pup a treat instead?


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Bronze Member
Username: Cruel_summer

Post Number: 11
Registered: Aug-09
i agree with the notions against the bi amping approach. i have separated both the amps they do not match. any suggestions for the suitable medium sized speakers for cary like in the sonus faber line. regards
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