Best buy for more outright slam under 1000$
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Bronze Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 30 Registered: Jun-09 | The title speaks for itself. Looking for good advice and experience on amps capable of giving more slam, bite and dynamics for a system. Ive read some recommendations for Exposure but not sure if it delivers. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3758 Registered: Sep-04 | Raheem, It depends on what speakers and CD player you want the amp to match. A 10wpc Audio Note would be completely inappropriate for Guru QM10s for example, but would work brilliantly with high sensitivity speakers like Klipsch. So...what's it going with? Frank. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10358 Registered: Feb-05 | Aren't the R5's for sale...that is why you pm'd me for my price right Raheem. You lowered the price on yours shortly after...I wondered why you didn't reply to me. So do you have a new speaker in mind such as the Guru's. |
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Bronze Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 51 Registered: Jun-09 | You guys are all over the place... :D Thanks for the replies though. Art, I lowered the price after not getting enough serious responses. No other reason. Now I have couple of potential buyers. Gurus will have to wait for a little while before I get some extra which would mean autumn. Planning to upgrade from my NAD 320 as well but not sure if it will make that big of a difference especially when Im looking for more "slam. Regardless of its extremely low price NAD is pretty capable in this regard. For the last 3 months Ive been auditioning different speakers and amps very actively and had a couple of them pass thru as well. The Gurus seem to have all the qualities which Im looking for but most importantly they do sound extremely detailed and uncoloured yet at the same time sweet and enjoyable without any of tendency of creating listening fatique what so ever. I just couldnt find any significant colouration in my nearly two hour listening experience which is mainly the only reason for any doubts I might have. Ive heard really enjoyable speakers before but none of them of this degree. In fact finishing the audition was somewhat frustrating as I just wanted to keep on listening music, changing tracks and trying to find some clear characteristics, of course without any success. I would need to, and most propably will, audition them again as something in me refuses to accept that they can be so neutral as they appeared. Rather I havent yet found their weakness. I need to know my future companions weakness before settling with "her"...Lol. They simply sounded too good to be true. That said Im pretty confident Im going to get them even though that price is a bit turn off (yes, I know Frank and I agree, sound per pound they are a steal but it still feels distasteful paying close to 2000$ for a speaker which has 2$ tweeter even if that tweeter is customised) and also I will need to accept the fact that once I make this decission turning back from it can be expensive as Gurus are not that sought after here in Canada. My other option is to get Monitor Audio RS6's for the time being (they are capable speakers) and first, audition Emerald Physics CS2 and/or CS 2.3's and if they deliver the goods start saving for them. Im also in the brink of creating a second set up which would allow the get both. Must the schizophrenic side in me :] But the amp... My source is mainly my hard drive (16-bit & 24-bit material) feed digitally to a diy DAC. So nothing special. I will also soon have my vinyls from Finland and will be getting P3 or Musical Hall turntable. So will perhaps also need a decent phono box if I find a good amp with nice slam and exciting presentation. So any thoughts? We know Creek 4330 is warm just like NAIM is rhytmic but wheres the amp for outright slam??? Thanks in advance. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 893 Registered: Jun-08 | For a high quality, neutral sounding amp with a lot of slam and great attack, which also has an unbeatable warranty...Bryston is going to be hard to beat. Since they have a 20yr warranty, the used market is a good option if cash is a concern. I have a 3B-ST but they also have some sweet integrated amps such as the B60 and B100. For outright slam vs. dollar with an audiophile sound, Bryston is hard to beat and they are made in Canada , in Peterborough. You could head down to the factory to get it serviced, if the need should arise. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2653 Registered: Jun-07 | Or in 20 years send it in to be gutted and re-built ;). Amazing service. And if were talking slam here, nothing comes close to Bryston for outright slam. Nothing. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13021 Registered: Dec-04 | Ummm... |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2364 Registered: Nov-05 | Double ummm . . . |
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Bronze Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 59 Registered: Jun-09 | "meditating" What about Exposure? Does it deliver relatively more slam as I've heard completely contradicting statements. Obviously speakers and rest of the system affects but every amp has a certain character to it. What I've concluded is that higher up in the price range the differences come more subtle and many of them start to sound less insiping and personal with the exceptions of some brit gear like Naim or Linn for example. Even NAD changes its sound when you approach their pricier gear just like Classe, Luxman, Accuphase and many others. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13028 Registered: Dec-04 | Yeah, all the low rent Classe stuff that I listen to is all the same bland mush. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2656 Registered: Jun-07 | Classe is amazing gear. And it a lot of ways sounds better than Bryston. Depending on listening preferences of course. Top notch gear that does many things better than Bryston does. Just not slam.lol. ;) All that dampening.mmMMMm. No really, I probably got a little excited. Jumped the gun. It happens.lol |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3407 Registered: May-05 | For $1k, your best bet may be used. Your money will stretch further that way, but you also run a risk. If buying second hand, Bryston is a no brainer. 20 year transferrable warranty. Just make sure if its been built after '06 (confirm on Bryston's web page) you have an original bill of sale from an authorized dealer, otherwise the warranty is void. Stuff made before that date doesn't need the bill of sale. I love Bryston gear. They're probably the hottest company on the market right now. They just had 4 or 5 pieces receive a Golden Ear award from Stereophile - CDP, DAC, 2 amps, and I'm probably missing something. The British mags are giving them 5 stars and calling them great bargains, yet they're twice the price over there! Seriously. Their new stuff is more evolutionary than revolutionary. Same neutral, low noise and distortion house sound throughout all their generations. The SST and even ST stuff isn't that far behind. The newer stuff sounds better, but its not like its completely different sounding. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 894 Registered: Jun-08 | I agree with Bryston's latest gear the squared series being more an evolution than revolution. But they have really go it right with the squared series reaching into the higher realms with an extremely smooth sounding amp. I'd live to have a 4B-SST/2. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3765 Registered: Sep-04 | Raheem, If you've found a sound that works for yu then that's the sound to go for. Since the person who demoed the speakers to you obviously knew what she was doing, how about checking up with her about the gear she was using and going for similar solutions, perhaps lower in the range but with the same presentation? That should be a route to success. The UK distributor of Guru didn't used to be a distributor at all and I believe (but could be wrong) Guru is the only brand he imports from abroad. He's really 'just' a dealer who happens to import Guru. (This is why he's a competitor.) That said, he always matches the Gurus with Naim electronics and apparently gets very good results. Naim's not cheap of course and I would suggest that the entry level Naim is probably a bit low rent for the Gurus. That said, your source worries me a lot! Even with the 24 bit material, most DIY DACs just don't have the speed and attack that you need for decent slam. I am very concerned about this and I wonder if this is going to be your fundamental roadblock. If you do go down the vinyl route, once again, I think the Rega P3 is a bit low rent for the Gurus and you should be in the P5/P7 ballpark for that speaker. In a sense, you really need to hear some balanced systems which are better than what you have currently. Perhaps that would be the best route to success. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13035 Registered: Dec-04 | RS, Frank knows slam. UK type slam. |
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Bronze Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 70 Registered: Jun-09 | Frank: "If you've found a sound that works for yu then that's the sound to go for. Since the person who demoed the speakers to you obviously knew what she was doing, how about checking up with her about the gear she was using and going for similar solutions, perhaps lower in the range but with the same presentation? That should be a route to success. The UK distributor of Guru didn't used to be a distributor at all and I believe (but could be wrong) Guru is the only brand he imports from abroad. He's really 'just' a dealer who happens to import Guru. (This is why he's a competitor.) That said, he always matches the Gurus with Naim electronics and apparently gets very good results. Naim's not cheap of course and I would suggest that the entry level Naim is probably a bit low rent for the Gurus." ---> Gurus infact have the same old skool speaker connectors than Naim is known for. Gurus have always had somwhat crazy marketing all the way from the begining. What I got from one of their adds is that they infact dont emphasise the importance of the amp too much. Saying something like: Now you can go back to that Kenwood amp you had in High School these speakers are that good. Thats of course sarcasism and Im sure this will change in the future though..... :DDDD "That said, your source worries me a lot! Even with the 24 bit material, most DIY DACs just don't have the speed and attack that you need for decent slam. I am very concerned about this and I wonder if this is going to be your fundamental roadblock." >>>> I know, I know. I sold all my equipment before coming to Montreal and now I have to start from the begining meaning I have lots of gear to purchase and bought some just for the time being as I cant live without my music. Separate DAC will be one of them. "If you do go down the vinyl route, once again, I think the Rega P3 is a bit low rent for the Gurus and you should be in the P5/P7 ballpark for that speaker." >>> I know what you mean, Id like to get E.A.T Forte if I had the money but I have to eat and pay the rent as well. Something as capable as P3 is good enough for the time being. Not too sure how it competes with Musical Hall or Project but I wont be get anything higher up in the price range, at least not now. My plan is to put most money in good pair of speakers Ill be comfortable with long in to the future (not an easy task). Garbage in. garbage out applies but speakers have always made the biggest difference for me. If the speakers arent capable enough theres not too much you can do with amps and sources no matter how good they are. In fact in the worst case scenario they will only highlight the shortcomings of the speakers which will make upgrading distasteful. Get the turntable (P3, MH or Project) and if I find proper one, amp as well. Also the DAC. I have to be very tight with my budget in order to succeed. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10385 Registered: Feb-05 | The P3-24 would probably be fine with the appropriate investment in cartridge and and phono amp, however the P5 would be better. |
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Bronze Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 73 Registered: Jun-09 | That's pretty much what I've heard, that the best steps are 1,3,5,9. Others give less value for money, particularly P7, mentioned by some. They even prefer P5 over it which is peculiar when you come think of it. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3768 Registered: Sep-04 | Speakers colour the voice of the system most dramatically. Theirs is a very obvious difference, but speakers can only do (at best) what they're told to do by the electronics that's driving them. If the signal that comes down from the electronics is nondescript, then at best all they can do is obfuscate the problem and at worst ruthlessly reveal the inadequacies of the signal. Typically, the better the speaker, the more ruthlessly they reveal the inadequacies (in part because it's a better speaker and therefore is designed to be as open a window as possible). So you end up with a (potentially beautiful sounding) system that doesn't engage you. This is where the source-first approach came from, as well as being a strong marketing technique for a source-only manufacturer - Linn!  But even Naim, who only made amplifiers in those days, were strong proponents of the source-first principle and so you had the formation of the Linn/Naim axis (of evil, some would say) of the 70s/80s. Nowadays, the view has moved to a more balanced approach, still with emphasis on the source, but which accepts that balancing the three sections (source, amplification, speakers) in order to exploit more of the performance of each individual section. There are very few nowadays who would argue that you should build the system speakers-first. The P5 is an ok product, but it has some quite glaring faults in the timing domain which is glaring because this is usually where Rega are strongest. The timing issues are fixed by adding Rega's external TT PSU and in fact I have never sold a P5 without the PSU simply because it takes an ok deck and makes it a real performer (and not because I'm a good salesman - which I'm not). The P7 is different to the rest of the Rega range in one respect. It's more finicky about cartridges. All the Rega decks apart from the P7 love all Dynavectors, but for some reason the P7 does not get on well with the entry level Dynavectors. We always put this down to the P7 being a 'dud', but in fact we were wrong! I was playing around with the P7 and trying different cartridges and found that the MM Goldrings were an absolute smash with the deck. All of a sudden it had pace and rhythm and all the hallmarks of a great turntable. So, provided the deck is matched sympathetically, it has the capacity to be a great source. Good luck with your plans! Frank. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13039 Registered: Dec-04 | obfuscate Underused word, Frank, and a good one! I still have issues with makers selling stuff that is sub-par. To have to add a PS to make it good, for the sake of marketing in the lower end for openers just ain't right. Just me, I guess. Naim selling rel power supplies to make it right is a shame, and only one vowel away from a sham. Rega should know better as well. Sell the thing full-boat and be done with it! |
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Bronze Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 86 Registered: Jun-09 | I compeletey agree what was said about Naim. Even they have their own unique sound their marketing, the way they force you to spend in tens of different boxes, has always strike me nothing short of a ripoff. It seemed to have a specific appeal certain group of people; the DIY's. I bet if you go to Brighton you wont find one pre-amp left untouched not the mention those power supplies. But Naim is one from the many forced to change their philosophy because of the hard competition coming from China. Rega on the other hand seems to be going to the opposite direction from the fundamental approach they started from, pushing themselves to the 'high-end' of the market to claim their piece of the pie. 6500€ must be closer to $9000US http://www.hautefidelite-hifi.com/actualites.php?actualite_id=182#actu http://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=1535 |
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Bronze Member Username: Just_wax_itMontreal, Quebec Post Number: 90 Registered: Jun-09 | Peachtree Audio Decco I think I found my DAC and pre- amp in the same package with all the features I am going to need This is though with the reservation I will make a hard and difficult turn towards CS2's which are not the most sweetest sounding speakers. In this case tube-pre will definitely come in handy. - 24-bit/192MHz D/A - Vacuum tube preamp stage (single dual-triode input tube) - USB, optical and coaxial inputs - Headphone out This seems to be a perfect solution and it can be easily acquired second hand for not much money. Also I haven't heard but positive feedback accept if you look it as a serious integrated. If i go for the CS2's Decco will be serving only as a DAC and tube pre. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13049 Registered: Dec-04 | Reada bit on the peahtree stuff, seems to be some happy customers. I love what Naim does. But... Death by a thousand cuts. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3772 Registered: Sep-04 | Nuck, JWI, Cobblers! What a bunch of tripe. Naim's units compete at their individual price point. They're plenty good enough with the in-built power supplies or at the combined price of said units to compete on the market. The power supplies simply offer you upgrade options which the competition doesn't offer you, thus locking you into a higher starting price or into a more painful upgrade process. The external power supply options then offer you even better solutions because the noisy power supply is not in the same casing as the more delicate signals, so all in all you get a better result, although it means lots of boxes and even more shelves... Naim don't force you to do anything! For example, a CDX2 on its own is a stunning player, and happily competes at its £3250 price bracket. There is nothing sub-par about it at that price. You can improve it with an external power supply to drive the DAC section, a supply that was designed for one of the two more expensive CD players and costs either a little less than the CDX2 itself or a little more, depending on which of the two supplies you went for. If you looked inside one of these supplies you'd see they were full to the brim in the same sized box as the CDX2 so you couldn't very well fit all that in as well now could you?! So you can buy yourself a £3k machine and be happy with it. Or if you wish you can improve later, you can either part exchange for another player by another manufacturer, or you can upgrade with the external power supply to make it into a £6k or £8k machine. Subsequently you're able to trade in your CDX2 for a CDS3 or 555 head unit if you wish. So you can upgrade in more manageable chunks but still have a brilliant player in the meantime. Your alternative from other manufacturers is to stump up the full amount, and if you already have a machine, well, that's your baby, or down to negotiation with your dealer. Either way you almost inevitably end up paying more in either 2nd hand depreciation or a higher, more fixed all-inclusive price for your next player. As for preamps, it makes complete sense to keep the power supply away from the line-level signals to lower the noise floor. Naim provide lower level power amplifiers that can act as the power supply to the preamp so you can start off with a simple 2-box solution which will sound great. If you wish, you can add the power supply later, which improves the amplifier no end, but then you'd expect it to given the cost. When you get to the more powerful amplifiers, Naim rather use all the power supply for the power amp and expect you to have built your system with the source first principle so your preamp should already be supplied. Either that or count the price of the new supply in with the power amplifier. Either way it still has to compete, whatever the price you're at. The only place where Naim traditionally shied away from external power supplies was with power amps, the rationale being that the power amps need their supply alongside their output devices for the fastest transfer of power. Latterly they've changed their design principles and put outboard power supplies on the top two amplifiers. You can't upgrade from one to the other or mix and match the power supplies. They're designed as complementary items and priced as such. And they haven't changed their philosophy at all! The only self-powered Naim preamp was the 12s back in the 70s. Ever since the 32/110, they have used exactly the same system building philosophy. Honestly, I really don't get where this idea that they build a sub-par machine that needs external power supplies for it to sound right comes from. It's just not right. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2390 Registered: Nov-05 | I think someone just made a Maltese Cross, eh Frank?  |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13147 Registered: Dec-04 | I waited a week for ya Frank. Baited Frank to make his case, and make it he did. A friend told me he was getting into Naim, and I told him to choose carefully. A slippery slope to the uninitiated. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10514 Registered: Feb-05 | Nice attempted save Nuck...lol! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3777 Registered: Sep-04 | LOL, oh Nuck you b**t**d! You really wound me up there...thing is, a few months ago I had to read exactly the same cobblers on another forum and it just made me see red. As for your friend, send him my way MWAHAHAHA. Seriously, you gave him sound advice. It's a bit of a minefield which Naim dealers are meant to help custoemrs understand. If he wants any advice, you could send him to Naim's forum or he could pose questions here. I'll answer (eventually). Still giggling... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13185 Registered: Dec-04 | The dealership experience is stronger with Naim, I suspect. |
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