High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?
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New member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 1 Registered: Jul-09 | I was wondering if anyone had some objective data or even and explanation as to why a high end processor would sound better then a low end processor/receiver. I understand that subjective listening plays a role in what people prefer and that some audiophiles look at audio more as a hobby but is there a hardware reason that impacts sound quality? I am not talking about double blind tests and the side that states everything sounds the same but as of yet I have not found any objective data that would justify this night and day difference. I have searched the internet for sometime and found a profile on photobucket that has quite a selection of photo's, I will post them below. Mods if you want to change all the IMG pictures back into a text link that is ok. Thank you. Theta digital casablanca III http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/Extremeclose.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/ExtremePremium.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/Premium-BB-1796-DAC.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/Premiumclose.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/Six-Shooter-interior.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/Theta-3.gif http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/Thetaboards.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/ThetaCB3.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/Volume-control-card.jpg Arcam FMJ AVR600/FMJ AV888 http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/arcam-AVR600lid_off_top.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/arcam-avr600-internal-dsp.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/arcam-avr600-internal-video.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/arcam-avr600-modules.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/arcam-avr600-power-amp.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/arcam-avr600-powersupply.jpg B&K reference 70 http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/P1010020.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/P1010021.jpg Cary cinema 11a http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/cary_cinema_11-2.jpg Classe SSP-800 http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/SSP800MainGut.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/SSP800-Board1.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/SSP800-Board2.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/SSP800-Board3.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/SSP800-Transformer.jpg Krell evolution 707 http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/707inside2.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/707inside1.jpg Lexicon MC-12 http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/smr_101.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/smr_41.jpg Mark Levinson No. 40 http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/mark-levinson-no-40-ssp-audi o-proce.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/mark-levinson-no-40-ssp-vide o-proce.jpg Mcintosh MX135 MX136 http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0635.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/42080587rx4.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0632.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0633.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0634.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0636.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0637.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0640.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0641.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0691.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/HPIM0710.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/mcd500insidetr9.jpg http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/mcintosh-mda-1000-inside-chassis.jpg |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13760 Registered: May-04 | . The most obvious difference between high and low end products is how the power supply is implemented in each product. Power supplies will probably include better components (toroidal transformers vs. box type, heavily shielded or possibly remotely located transformers and ps., audiophile quality recitifiers and capacitors, etc.), have more stages of operation and tighter regulation of those stages in the high end product when compared to the low end product. Tolerances are more commonly tighter (1%) on the high end product so all components surrounding, say, the processor chip are operating at close to design specification. Low end product has larger variance in the circuit components (10-20%) and therefore a higher degree of variance from ideal performance in the processor chip and the circuits that follw it. It is more likely the high end product has been designed by a single designer who has chosen the path the finished product should take concerning sound quality whereas the mass market product is designed by committee directed with the intention to introduce a new anacronym into the marketing of the product. The circuits supporting any O.E.M. processor are more likely to be of a higher grade from a design and implementation standpoint than what you would find in a low end design. High end audio is quite often an exercise in what the designer feels makes abetter product. Audiophile grade passive components are not typically included in low end products since the design is aimed at the lowest selling price for the number of watts and features. If a different chip is available and that chip provides better performance, the high end manufacturer is more likely to use that chip. High end manufactutrers wil often upgrade their components without obsoleting the entire product, this adds value to the unit. Customer relations and customer service is typically superior from the high end manufacturer with many high end companies supporting products that have been out of their line for decades. Have you tried calling Sony to ask about a product currently in their line? Reliability is quite often a deciding factor in both the design and sale of a high end product. High end products hold their value better than mass market products. High end products simply sound better and tend to work longer than low end products. There is always the pride of ownership to be considered. If you are comparing a stand alone processor to a receiver, the differences are numerous and begin with the isolation of circuits and individual components away from each other and from other noise inducing items. With the separate processor there is flexibility to upgrade the system without obsoleting the entire system. If the receiver fails, you might be better off buying an entirely new receiver due to problems not related to the processor. If the stand alone processor fails, you can decide to upgrade just the processor. I would hope you should have the ability to audition the high end product in a fair and appropriate situation - possibly your home - where you are most likely going to hear the reciever through a switched comparator in a room full of other receivers and at least two walls full of speakers through any number of source components and competing with the noise of the car stereo display. We can hope the high end store has invested in training for their sales staff that won't occur in the big box store, this should provide you with better information on the system approach to audio as opposed to the get it out the door approach to mass market shopping. Receivers are sold on the number of features and buttons on the remote and the front panel. Separate components are most often sold on their performance and their superior connectivity. The receiver is more likely to be discontinued the month ofter you buy yours. . |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3739 Registered: Sep-04 | Why is a Ferrari faster than a Ford Focus? Why is a dragster faster than either...in a straight line? Why is a Caterham faster than all...on twisty roads? It's a matter of design, engineering and application. Although the processors appear to be doing the same things (in the same way as all the above are cars which go from A to B), the objectives of the various engineering teams are quite different. Some want to make it as cheaply as possible, some as reliable as possible, some with the best possible audio performance and some with attention on the video performance. Others will pay more attention to detail to form factor and yet others to feature set. Put that lot together and you get different horses for different courses. Apply budget to all of that and all the compromises and design decisions take on a new light. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 12976 Registered: Dec-04 | I was waiting until I said...dude, go listen and you will know. If you can't tell definitively, check out a new hobby, like tying flies or whatever. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 888 Registered: Jun-08 | Or watching movies about tying flies, like A River Runs Through It - great movie, BTW. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 12987 Registered: Dec-04 | Sounds gripping, Siskel. |
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New member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 2 Registered: Jul-09 | [quote=Jan Vigne] The most obvious difference between high and low end products is how the power supply is implemented in each product. Power supplies will probably include better components (toroidal transformers vs. box type, heavily shielded or possibly remotely located transformers and ps., audiophile quality recitifiers and capacitors, etc.), have more stages of operation and tighter regulation of those stages in the high end product when compared to the low end product.[/quote] But as you can see in the pictures the high end does not run better power suplies and most of them only run 1 or 2 independant power supply sections. Most of them do not even run toroid's. [quote]Tolerances are more commonly tighter (1%) on the high end product so all components surrounding, say, the processor chip are operating at close to design specification. Low end product has larger variance in the circuit components (10-20%) and therefore a higher degree of variance from ideal performance in the processor chip and the circuits that follw it. [/quote] Then why does the high end not measure better when benchmarked? A DSP will operate the same in either a cheap receiver or a high end processor, all 1's and 0's, there are no varianaces. [quote]It is more likely the high end product has been designed by a single designer who has chosen the path the finished product should take concerning sound quality whereas the mass market product is designed by committee directed with the intention to introduce a new anacronym into the marketing of the product.[/quote] And I wonder who can do a better job, an entire reseach team or one person. [quote]The circuits supporting any O.E.M. processor are more likely to be of a higher grade from a design and implementation standpoint than what you would find in a low end design. High end audio is quite often an exercise in what the designer feels makes abetter product. Audiophile grade passive components are not typically included in low end products since the design is aimed at the lowest selling price for the number of watts and features.[/quote] Again since the high end does not measure better this is irrelevant. [quote]If a different chip is available and that chip provides better performance, the high end manufacturer is more likely to use that chip.[/quote] What chips are better in the high end? [quote]High end products simply sound better and tend to work longer than low end products.[/quote] Sound better how? [quote]If you are comparing a stand alone processor to a receiver, the differences are numerous and begin with the isolation of circuits and individual components away from each other and from other noise inducing items.[/quote] Do you have some better data to back this up or are you assuming? |
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New member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 3 Registered: Jul-09 | [quote=Frank Abela] Why is a Ferrari faster than a Ford Focus? Why is a dragster faster than either...in a straight line? Why is a Caterham faster than all...on twisty roads? It's a matter of design, engineering and application. Although the processors appear to be doing the same things (in the same way as all the above are cars which go from A to B), the objectives of the various engineering teams are quite different. Some want to make it as cheaply as possible, some as reliable as possible, some with the best possible audio performance and some with attention on the video performance. Others will pay more attention to detail to form factor and yet others to feature set. Put that lot together and you get different horses for different courses. Apply budget to all of that and all the compromises and design decisions take on a new light.[/quote] But all of those things are measureable, why then does the high end not measure better? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13769 Registered: May-04 | . "But as you can see in the pictures the high end does not run better power suplies and most of them only run 1 or 2 independant power supply sections. Most of them do not even run toroid's." Let's go back to your original post; " ... as of yet I have not found any objective data that would justify this night and day difference." Pictures are not "objective data" and "night and day difference" is your term, not mine. It's unlikely you will find "objective data" that represents the differences between components if your data must be in the form of simple, conventional, marketing based measurements. You'll have to be more specific about just what "objective data" you have been looking at. It doesn't appear you've looked very deeply into this subject. However, you asked for an explanation, which I provided. It is a broad based explanation for the why's and wherefore's of most high end components compared to low end receivers. If you want to discuss individual components you have hand picked as examples, you'll have to contact the individual manufacturers for their version of what makes their product superior since I don't claim the ability to explain anyone else's perceptions. "Then why does the high end not measure better when benchmarked? A DSP will operate the same in either a cheap receiver or a high end processor, all 1's and 0's, there are no varianaces." What measurements are you referring to? Just 1's and 0's? This is your measure of competent design and execution? You are joking, right? "And I wonder who can do a better job, an entire reseach team or one person." I suppose that depends on your definition of "better job". You haven''t explained that to us and you seem to be playing a game of having us guess what your intentions are based on the meaningless words you produce. That's a boring game. "Again since the high end does not measure better this is irrelevant." Again, what measurements are you referring to? Don't make me play a guessing game here, I'm not interested in that from this forum. Say what you mean and we can get on with this. 1's and 0's are all the same? T.H.D is enough to tell you what? Spell out what you are saying and I'll decide whether you're worth any more of my time. Play games and I have better things to do. "What chips are better in the high end?" Pick a manufacturer and you will very likely find an array of chips doing roughly the same function and aimed at the specific purpose of the circuit, the economics of system and the utility of the design. You appear to have sufficient knowledge to already know that. Don't play games here. "Sound better how?" How much of a PITA are you going to be? Better yet, why don't you tell me what is important to you in reproduced sound and I'll try to tell you whether a "high end" product would "sound better"? That should be sufficiently vague to satisfy this game's ground rules. "Do you have some better data to back this up or are you assuming?" Assuming what? Components vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and from product year to product year. I can't be specific with "data" for those reasons since one manufactuter might be doing something very right while a dozen others are doing most everything wrong. It shouldn't take much imagination to grasp the concept of better layout and execution in a purpose built component vs. a multi-purpose receiver. Your question belies either a simplicity of thought on your part or an attempt to further a game you came here to play. Which is it? That's it? I gave you 18 "explanations" and you found seven to be obtuse about. Try to be more specific in what you are asking and telling. What measurements are you referring to? What "sounds better" to you? What exactly do you want someone to say? What game have you decided to try out on this forum? Don't be shy because I dont have much patience for a "if it measures the same, it sounds the same" or a "if it looks the same in a picture, it is the same" thread and I will walk away from this if that's your intent. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13005 Registered: Dec-04 | Another troll. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1341 Registered: Nov-04 | It seems that this guy is trolling the internets. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=High+end+processors+VS+low+end... Don't know if this is the same guy that was featured in April 1999 Stereophile Guide to Home Theater in an article entitled "Tweaked to Perfection" as is stated in an AVS forum post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16725635#post16725635, but it seems odd that a person with that kind of system is now asking about this kind of stuff. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13770 Registered: May-04 | I don't know, there must be hundreds if not thousands of Steve Bruzonsky's out there with high end audio systems.  http://www.arizonagetwellattorney.com/ Steve, any objective data on the difference between a civil rights attorney and an ambulance chaser? . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13771 Registered: May-04 | . Williammaxtor/Steve Bruzonsky? Two names with the exact same question and the exact same pictures on the forums CL Googled? Why's that, guy? I see you immediately bring up DBT's on several forums. That's all I need to know. Goodbye, Steve/William. Stay on HA, they love trolls (he!!, they are all trolls at HA) and hate anyone who doesn't go gahgah over DBT's and ABX's. I have better things to do than to satisfy trolls. (And for a lawyer I would have exected better questions to set up the answers you wanted to hear. Phhhhhssssssshhh!) . . |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3752 Registered: Sep-04 | As a man with a way with words once said: There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13014 Registered: Dec-04 | That's heavy, Frank.  |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1343 Registered: Nov-04 | I should have waited for Steve to get more involved in the thread before calling him out. I cut the fun too short for everyone. |
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New member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 4 Registered: Jul-09 | How can you say pictures are not objective data? How else and what else affects the component? "Jan Vigne It's unlikely you will find "objective data" that represents the differences between components if your data must be in the form of simple, conventional, marketing based measurements. You'll have to be more specific about just what "objective data" you have been looking at. It doesn't appear you've looked very deeply into this subject." High end companies can not tell you why their product sounds better becuase they don't know why, would it not make sense to jump on and provide any data that proves your product to be better then the competition? "Jan Vigne What measurements are you referring to? Just 1's and 0's? This is your measure of competent design and execution? You are joking, right?" You were talking about DSP's making a difference and when dealing with DSP's yes we are dealing with just 1's and 0's. "Jan Vigne Again, what measurements are you referring to? Don't make me play a guessing game here, I'm not interested in that from this forum. Say what you mean and we can get on with this. 1's and 0's are all the same? T.H.D is enough to tell you what? Spell out what you are saying and I'll decide whether you're worth any more of my time. Play games and I have better things to do." Frequency Response, THD+Noise, Signal to Noise Ratio, Crosstalk. What else do you want to measure? "Jan Vigne Pick a manufacturer and you will very likely find an array of chips doing roughly the same function and aimed at the specific purpose of the circuit, the economics of system and the utility of the design. You appear to have sufficient knowledge to already know that. Don't play games here." The high end does not run better DAC's, opamps, DSP's, so what else are you talking about? "Jan Vigne Don't be shy because I dont have much patience for a "if it measures the same, it sounds the same" or a "if it looks the same in a picture, it is the same" thread and I will walk away from this if that's your intent." If you don't know and you base your opinions purley on subjective listening then just say so. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3760 Registered: Sep-04 | If you don't listen you will never hear. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13023 Registered: Dec-04 | If you listen but still don't hear, then go for a receiver. That green-necked gillian fly is looking good... |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2790 Registered: Oct-04 | Reminds me of this thread: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/443167.html ...I wonder? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2791 Registered: Oct-04 | And who can forget this classic thread: https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=1421454#POST1421454 |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2873 Registered: Feb-07 | I go away for a few days, and look at all the fun I miss out on. |
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New member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 5 Registered: Jul-09 | So as of yet we have come up with no differences that would equate to better sound quality in the high end. The more one looks into it the more the high end is all but snake oil, look at the new lexicon blu ray player it is nothing but a rebadged oppo. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2800 Registered: Oct-04 | It is far more likely the Oppo is a re-badged Lexicon given the fact that Lexicon is part of Harmon International, perhaps the largest audio-electronics manufacturer in the world. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13089 Registered: Dec-04 | Have we not, Steve? I rather think we have. How is the purple tailed doppler-dangler coming along, with the green hairs? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3769 Registered: Sep-04 | Once upon a time, everybody knew the earth was flat. The curvature of the horizon was put down to an optical ilusion. That's you Steve... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13141 Registered: Dec-04 | And art is worth the price of paint. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3775 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh Nuck, that's a beauty! Must remember that one. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13189 Registered: Dec-04 |  See, here is the thing. Manufacturers have shared parts, platforms and whatnot forever. But stuffing a Cosworth engine into a Chevy Vega yielded very different results than the same Cos in a 1500lb Lotus chassis. It is what is built around the existing parts that make it interesting and worthy. |
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New member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 6 Registered: Jul-09 | "Christopher Molloy It is far more likely the Oppo is a re-badged Lexicon given the fact that Lexicon is part of Harmon International, perhaps the largest audio-electronics manufacturer in the world." Now that is funny, but I guess lexicon/harmon would want oppo to make all the sales by having them release and sell the unit first. "Nuck Have we not, Steve? I rather think we have." Really? Where is this objective proof? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13349 Registered: Dec-04 | Welcome back, SB, I hope you had a good vacation. The proof is right in your ears. Did you teach the kids to tye flies? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2986 Registered: Feb-07 | Been awhile Steve. I though you'd forgotten about us. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2823 Registered: Oct-04 | Steve, quite frankly I don't care. Most of us here are big boys, we can read specs, and know how much we wish to spend for a given component. Anyone here buy any Lexicon gear lately? (imagine crickets chirping) Are there differences between the Oppo & Lexicon, sure, albeit mostly cosmetic from what I can tell. http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd -blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-universal-blu-ray-player Are the differences worth the several thousand dollars difference between the two models, not to me, but if I'm some Saudi prince or an NBA player, what the !@#$ do I care, I want my components to match & I like to boast about about how much my system cost. |
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New member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 7 Registered: Jul-09 | Proof is in my ears? If you are rich what is another couple thousand dollars? I have posted this thread on a lot of forums and to date I have not been shown any objective data that would back up and claims of improved sound quality. Which is fine, keep your subjective opinions but keep them to yourself. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2987 Registered: Feb-07 | If you don't want subjective opinions why are you here? The whole point of this forum is to discuss our opinions on our favourite hobby/passion. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3799 Registered: Sep-04 | Steve, I don't understand the point of your posts. Oh, maybe I do....you just want to wind us up. Ah, now I see.... Very well, I hope you had fun. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13355 Registered: Dec-04 | The man is tone deaf. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2824 Registered: Oct-04 | Steve, I'm curious as to what equipment you own, and where you think one's funds might be best directed for "improved sound quality"? |
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New member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 8 Registered: Jul-09 | I use to own high end equipment but after doing a pile of research and viewing high end audio hardware I came to the point that high end audio is nothing more then snake oil. If there are no hardware differences from a basic receiver and the measurements are close to one another where then would this "change" in sound quality for better or worse come form? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2993 Registered: Feb-07 | Build quality is one thing. I've owned everything from utter crap, to mid-fi, to relatively "high-end" (Bryston, McIntosh). There's no comparison. You can't convince me that a 200 dollar Sony receiver is going to sound as good as a 4k McIntosh integrated. It ain't gonna last as long either. An extreme example, I know. Is this what you're getting at? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2825 Registered: Oct-04 | Steve, what equipment did you own & do you currently own? What kind of research did you do? What high-end audio hardware did you "view"? What did you see? Would you consider something like a power supply something that might effect sound quality? How about the structure of the chassis? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13359 Registered: Dec-04 | Troll. Deaf troll. Stupid deaf troll. Used to own highend stuff...uh huh. The best Sony had in receivers, eh Stevie? Go troll somewhere else, unless you like being called stupid. Go tye flies. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13894 Registered: May-04 | . You guys should have followed my lead six weeks ago and left Stevie talking to himself. This is not a thread you want to carry forward, take my word for it. Steve is focused on "objective data" such as photographs and tiny bits of the manufacturers specs and his vision ends where he wants it to end - proving that he has been a fool all these years travelling the road to Damascus. He sees a handful of generic numbers and pictures that tell him what he thinks is there as the be all and end all of design and subsequently sound. You can carry on here or ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWwyjwmYMEs&feature=related ... because Steve truly is a dining room table with chairs. There are plenty of forums Steve has invaded with his propaganda, let him spend his time there. He already knows which forums want to hear this malarkey and he can stay where he finds a receptive audience for all I care. Steve-O, if you respond to this post, you will not receive a reply from me other than to tell you once again, "Go away, troll!" . |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2828 Registered: Oct-04 | While I disagree with his premise that high-end audio = snake oil, his specific example of the Lexicon & Oppo, seems to be correct, and the broader subject product rebadging & cloning seems to be a valid one. http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/clone-amplifiers |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13376 Registered: Dec-04 | It does, and is CM. However, Steve-O's premise is built on the worst possible scenario, with little regard for the little things that matter. Like output stages, power supplies and soaks, and a few other widgets in there as well. I do not, nor will I defend Lexicon for being a geometrically expanding chasm of sucker bait, but to build a full attack of commonalities is vain and undereducated. I think Tripath sells a chip, and only a chip, which is free for all to use. But when you add Red Wine... |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2830 Registered: Oct-04 | Point well made. There's "high-end", and then there's high-end. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOtaOrXIPrI |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13896 Registered: May-04 | . "While I disagree with his premise that high-end audio = snake oil, his specific example of the Lexicon & Oppo, seems to be correct, and the broader subject product rebadging & cloning seems to be a valid one." "Audioholics; Pursuing the truth in audio and video Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment -- not marketing slogans"} CM, I can't tell you what to read or who to believe but I can tell from my experience to distrust anyone proclaiming the fact they are the one providing "The Truth" or who rely on slogans such as "those people". This applies to more than audio but is particularly relevant to judging gear based on a few scraps of semi-objective data carefully chosen with the intent of projecting "The(ir chosen bit of) Truth". IMO DellaSala is quite good at giving general impressions which selectively omit data. More fully developed explanations than those provided, say, "If you examine the ICE data sheet you will in fact notice that none of the manufacturers productizing this module actually conducted and published their own measurements. They instead chose what they wanted to publish from the actual ICE data sheets. All in all, it's blatantly obvious we've got identical amplifiers specified differently on our hands but at such disparate price points with units ranging from $1199 to $4700," might leave you with the impression the various manufacturters actually do a bit to substantially more than slap a name plate on "identical amplifiers". IMO DellaSala/Audioholics has carefully chosen "what they wanted to publish" and it is "blatantly obvious" he looked no further once he found any scrap of information that would satisfy his pre-conceived conclusion. Being the "watchdog" sells for DellaSala and Glenn Beck. Looking no further than need be makes the job particularly simple when you are selling your wares to the gullible who want to believe you are providing proof of what they have always suspected. Recognize partisanship when you see it - even if it is my own partisanship you see. Preaching the converted is good business. DellaSala uses, in the above example, pricing as his guide for his leap to the conclusion that all of these amplifiers are identical. The ICE chip costs "X" and the typical manufacturer markup is "Y", therefore, the price should be ... " That's simply not how audio works, CM. However, if you fall into the mindset that "X" is the cost of all parts and markup is based solely on cost of parts, then you'll continue to buy Oppo and Pioneer believing there really is nothing better to listen to. If you apply a few generic specs to the equation, you can easily be convinced a Chevy Malibu and a Cadillac CTS are the same since they use the same generic parts - wheels, shocks, pistons, etc. - and GM is the parent company. Look at the cost of parts for only the motor mounts and they'll appear to be the same. Look at the curb weight/wheelbase and they'll appear to be similar. (And, no, I didn't go check these numbers to be certain - you should get my point not the specifics.) Audioholics "truth" is preaching to those who wish to kick or avoid an addiction to something they do not appreciate. The Audioholics reader either never believed in the high end or they have been through countless equipment changes and cannot say they really ever experienced the audio Nirvana promised to them in the pages of Stereophile. However, once you look beyond the message that everything is the same if it basically (meaning don't look too deeply) meaures the same, Audioholics is as laden with opinions as any subjective review magazine you'll find - or I should say, it is "blatantly obvious". Certainly, many people choose to believe Audioholics' opinions because it saves them the effort of listening - they can believe that any amplifier with 0.001% THD is as good as any other amplifier with a single similar spec. Many car buyers still carry copies of Consumer Reports into the dealership thinking they are to be "trusted" since they have no dog in the fight. We all make our subjective decisions based on what we see as objective data. Most people just can't see the dog that is actually there. And most people choose their wine by how attractive they find the label. Perception is there for you to use and there is as much evidence for the "placebo effect" as there is for the "no-cebo effect". DBT's and ABX's are notoriously unreliable methods by which to judge audio products. Photos are even less so. Choose to believe what you will, but make it your own decision based on experience and thoughtful consideration and not something you picked up from anyone peddling "The(ir) Truth". Do so especially when advertisers are paying the bills. . |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2831 Registered: Oct-04 | Jan, are you aware of any glaring examples of flat-out rebadging in Hi-Fi? The GM example is a good one, today, 10-yrs. ago, I'm not so certain, and that lingering memory is hard to purge once it's been ingrained. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13380 Registered: Dec-04 | CM, I googled 'rebadged audio' and got the usual cascade of links. Lexicon is the biggest of the bunch, of course. Shanling is huge in building, and I bet the comany that builds for them do a lot of blanks, too. Just add faceplate. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2832 Registered: Oct-04 | I still find it hard to believe that Lexicon would choose to rebadge an Oppo when Harman International also markets and/or produces a BDP for its' Harman-Kardon brand? http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?cat=DBR&ser=&prod=BDP%2010/230&s Type=C I'm still of the position that Harman is most likely building these for Oppo, and not the other way around. It seems inconceivable that a company with the resources of Harman would need to outsource just about anything A/V related. Perhaps Oppo had exclusive rights to the first run of units? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13897 Registered: May-04 | . Yes, the Chinese market is full of products that are simply new faceplates on someone else's design - not usually with that someone else's foreknowledge. As audio companies come under the ownership of larger corporations or controlling interests it has become more common for circuits to be duplicated up and down a line of products from various manufacturers under the roof of one large directorate not always that interested in preserving the name badge of any one company. Marantz has been kicked around the block so many times their products probably exist as half a dozen other lines somewhere somehow. Years ago (late '90's) there were HK and Marantz receivers that were 85% identical on a cursory examination simply because the products were built in the same factory and savings were managed by using similar layout and a fair number of parts. However, as you would expect the HK did much better in traditional HK ways - low impedance current delivery, higher power delivery vs rated power, etc. To many people the difference wouldn't have been apparent by simply looking at basic specs - they might even have chosen the Marantz for its higher rated power though the HK delivered higher power on a test bench. I preferred the HK for its sound quality. But I know of no instance where a less expensive component was directly lifted into a higher priced chassis. Even if there were such a case, intangibles that we've mentioned would play a role in determining which product was worth how much in value addded appeal. Beyond that consider the basic talent that goes into taking a simple ICE chip for example and creating a very different product with that single chip. DellaSala claims there isn't much to do with one chip. Yet I suspect many high end designers and listeners would disagree with that assessment. You get to decide what value you place on talent. One of the ways value has been derived has been to duplicate certain components within a line or within a corporate line. A single chassis will be used to house four or five components. Within that single chassis some circuit boards will have a universal lay out that allows for jumpers and parts to be added or subtracted to complete a specific design. Even lifting a single board layout to other pc boards of varying quality (different board material, different type of trace material, etc) which eventually get distributed through multiple layers of quality of product will minimize cost. I see nothing wrong with this approach since saving a few dollars even on a high end product makes the gear more competitive and is hardly the work of a lazy engineer. I do have problems with the "same as same as" approach that looks at minimal information - basic specs, photos - to declare all things above the baseline are rip offs of the snake oil variety. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13898 Registered: May-04 | . "I'm still of the position that Harman is most likely building these for Oppo, and not the other way around. It seems inconceivable that a company with the resources of Harman would need to outsource just about anything A/V related. Perhaps Oppo had exclusive rights to the first run of units?" Possibly Harman once again collaborated with another company to build similar products within one Chinese plant. Sharing layouts and even selling resources like this has not been all that uncommon in the audio market for the last 15 years as manufacturing has moved progessively more off shore. However, I think you raise some good questions that IMO DellaSala leaves unanswered as he makes accusations of "blatant" snake oil sales. . |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2833 Registered: Oct-04 | It would be interesting to see the tangled web these companies have weaved, and who exactly is producing what for whom? It reminds me of a TV show I watched on the Blue Jeans industry (I think it was on the History Channel), where they visited a factory in Mexico where the majority of Jeans in the US market are made, from discount-store brands to multi-hundred dollar pairs for boutiques; that's not to say that they all look, fit, or are made the same. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13384 Registered: Dec-04 | My old corvette used the clutch from a GMC truck. Vette price...$450.00 GMC2500 price...$200.00 same part #, but -C |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2835 Registered: Oct-04 | All the car companies do it, like Jan said, it makes sense, but the US auto manufacturers pushed the practice to its limits. There were a string of years where, cars like the Chevy Impala, Pontiac Bonneville, Oldsmobile Delta 88, Buick La Sabre, and Cadillac Coupe De Ville (I think I got all the models right?) shared an extraordinary amount of hardware, and were way too close each other on virtually every level to make any coherent distinction between the whole lot, other than price of course. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2998 Registered: Feb-07 | Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe. Same car. Guess which one is more expensive. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13385 Registered: Dec-04 | Guess which one has a better resale value. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2836 Registered: Oct-04 | Oh it still goes on, but not to the extent it once did. I think GM had to import the Matrix to offset the low MPG of its' cars, or something like that? Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infinity, they all do it to one degree or another, but not the way The BIG Three did until recently. GM, Ford, and whatever Chrysler-Fiat is calling itself, seems to have learned their lesson, and the practice of dressing up half-a-dozen of identical cars will some different sheet metal & trim hopefully has gone the way of Oldsmobile, Pontiac & Plymouth. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2999 Registered: Feb-07 | I agree Stu. It seems GM is headed the right way now (through no choice of it's own) by ditching extraneous brands like Saturn, Pontiac and that horror of horrors, Hummer. Having 2 or 3 brands of the identical car never made sense. I'm sad to see Pontiac go, since I've been a long time fan of them - my first car was a Firebird. But I think at last they're heading in the right direction. You're right about the resale value Nuck, though. Buy a GM and by the time it's paid for it's worth nothing. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2837 Registered: Oct-04 | I'll tell Stu when I see him  GM can still stand to lose Buick, and Ford can do away with Mercury, Chrysler can just go away all together. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3001 Registered: Feb-07 | lol... right, sorry Chris. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3002 Registered: Feb-07 | Not a fan of Chrysler? Man, we get off topic sometimes. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2838 Registered: Oct-04 | No, I like the Challenger (but not as much as the new Camaro), but the company seem to be unsalvageable. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3003 Registered: Feb-07 | I like the looks of the new Challenger, but unlike the Camaro, the base model of the Challenger is a dog. Even the next model up (the SXT, I believe) is far behind even the LS model of the Camaro. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3004 Registered: Feb-07 | On that same note, I would have expected Chrysler and GM to be bending over backwards to sell me car. I walked into a Chrysler dealership a few weeks ago to check out the Challenger and was basically treated like a bag of dirt. At least my local GM dealer is trying.... probably because they're thankful to still be in business. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2839 Registered: Oct-04 | The new Ford Taurus starts at around $25K and tops off over $45K; if you ask me, that's just too wide a price range for a single model. It's hard for the public to take a good car like the $45K AWD Taurus SHO seriously when a the $25K model is being used as a fleet car. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3006 Registered: Feb-07 | wow. Hard to believe that options can make a 20k difference. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13387 Registered: Dec-04 | Hey, I OWN the stupid fuckingthing! Well, a little teensy bit of it... |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3007 Registered: Feb-07 | What's left of it... |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10663 Registered: Feb-05 | I wouldn't give Chrysler or GM a dime these days. If someone held a gun to my head and forced me to buy American (and that's what it would take) I'd buy a Ford Mustang. My neighbor's is a beauty! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3008 Registered: Feb-07 | I can understand your feelings about that Art. Ford is the only NA car manufacturer that was able to hold things together without our welfare. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13389 Registered: Dec-04 | Remember that 3 years ago, Ford staked it's very life (it's factories) as collateral against 18 billion in new money. Thats the way Henry did it, and THAT is what America should be built on. Cold hard balls. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2840 Registered: Oct-04 | Art & Nuck, you are dead on. There's nothing wrong with American (OK, North American Nuck & David) built cars, ask Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, BMW, ... Ford man'd up, GM & Chrysler bellied up! I'll have NOTHING to do with them...ever! My next car will absolutely be a Ford or Lincoln. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1402 Registered: Apr-05 | I still find it hard to believe that Lexicon would choose to rebadge an Oppo when Harman International also markets and/or produces a BDP for its' Harman-Kardon brand? http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?cat=DBR&ser=&prod=BDP%2010/230&s Type=C I'm still of the position that Harman is most likely building these for Oppo, and not the other way around. It seems inconceivable that a company with the resources of Harman would need to outsource just about anything A/V related. Perhaps Oppo had exclusive rights to the first run of units?\i Chris I bought an Oppo BD about 5 months ago and have been following up on this product very intently for the past 10 months. I can tell you with almost certainty that this product is theirs and not re-branded from someone else. A case in point: I have been in touch with them about a few issues very minor in nature and yet the speed with which they replied to me and the level of detail they gave about their explanation of the issue, once all the facts were ascertained, would be very difficult to do for a company that did not actually design and own the entire product. I don't know where Lexicon's BD player comes from, but this is all Oppo does. If you want to know the actual details of the issue I'll be happy to share it. I don't want to bore everyone else with it. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2844 Registered: Oct-04 | I'll take your word for it. How does the unit handle 2-ch audio? |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1403 Registered: Apr-05 | Yeah, but don't take my word for it http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124287 There are a lot of review, some of whom really focused on the musicality of this unit. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3802 Registered: Sep-04 | I believe Stof is right. We knew oppo were working on their unit for ages before it came out. We also heard that the problem they hit was the multi-region software which put their launch back by about 6 months! It's definitely their product, not Harman's. That said, it makes perfect sense for Oppo to agree with Harman for a rebadge effort. Harman's name is far more enticing to most people than oppo's which is mainly known in enthusiast circles. Since Harman are effectively buying in the product, it's far higher cost to them so their markup has to be factored into the end price too. Red Wine is another issue. The Red Wine amp is based on a far East product (which I've heard). However, it's not exactly the same thing. Yes, it's based on the the exact same chassis and circuit, but there are many key components such as capacitors and I believe output devices which are different. Does the RW product sound different? Possibly. Is it better? Probably. Better enough to justify the extra cost? Now that's the question! Fact is, Mark Levinson put in some effort and made detail changes. We don't know the cost of that, nor the continuing cost of the different components to judge. All we can do is use our ears. Even then, there is another aspect to manufacturing high end which escapes many people, and this is true for many of the smaller specialist manufacturers such as Naim, McIntosh and Krell. Parts may only cost $0.03 each, but what most people don't consider is what the manufacturer does to select the parts in the first place. I was at the Naim factory just recently and they were describing how they select and match the components for their units. What they do is take a 3c item and ad value to it by sorting it and matching to other items for similar performance and consistency. I watched a man with an oscilloscope going through voltage regulators one by one. Sure, all the voltage regulators regulated the voltage accurately, but they varied in the amount of noise they generated around that voltage. This man was sitting there testing each and every one of the regulators to ensure that their noise levels were within very strict limits. So it's still a 3c part, but the value Naim have added to that part is quite significant. Now if you add up the price of matching all the various parts to ensure that you get a balanced amplifier (say) or quiet regulation and lower noise from standard parts, it's easy to simply point at the circuit and go "this is a basic design with no extra value". What you don't see is the testing and added value of the manufacturing process. And of course you can't measure it because what you'd have to measure would be a circuit using selected parts against the same circuit without selected parts. You could possibly compare the Red Wine product to its far East stablemate, but since it's not in Naim's interest to do this (they've already done the work internally), you won't be able to test comparatively what the value of the selection process is at Naim. There are too many factors to consider here, and in the end it makes no difference if the differences aren't perceived by you. Either they are, in which case you can appreciate the value proposition, or they're not, in which case you can't. What I object to is people who can't claiming that there's no objective reason why high end should be better because it's not measurable. Fact is, we haven't measured everything. If we had, then there'd only be one manufacturer in the world since that would obviously be the best irrespective of anything, including personal taste. Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 977 Registered: Jun-08 | Well said Frank and something to think about when considering the value proposition. What you stated would go for a number of high-end products such as cars...mentioned earlier in this thread. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1405 Registered: Apr-05 | This is true. This question is when do you know that value has been added. I don't question Macintosh and Naim, but so many companies are happy to rebrand something cheap and sell it directly through their channels. There was a day when I would put Sony in the category of value add if not total innovators, not so for the past 15 years. |
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New member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 9 Registered: Jul-09 | So no one can offer some objective data to show why one will sound better then another? How come people can not pick out the high end component when doing a DBT? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13442 Registered: Dec-04 | I do not listen to data. How come people can not pick out the high end component when doing a DBT? What people? When? Who designed the DBT, which is inherently flawed? |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 11 Registered: Jul-09 | If you think you have golden ears then why not take up the million dollar challenge to pick out high end speaker cables. There are many multi thousand dollar challenges. The only reason the golden ear club thinks DBT's are flawed is because it proves them wrong, I can prove high end audio wrong all day long with specs, pictures, and physics but it always comes down to "well I can hear a difference". Guess what, those "differences" can not be backed up in DBT's. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13445 Registered: Dec-04 | If I hear a difference, there is a difference. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1360 Registered: Nov-04 | Nuck, just let it go. Steve has nothing else to do in life. Let the thread die and have him talk to himself. We enjoy what we have so lets not let this bozo get to us. Bye steve |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2890 Registered: Oct-04 | The sad part is this guy thinks he's playing the part of hero and enlightening the masses. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13450 Registered: Dec-04 | I am just bored and running a fever, CM. My head is all plugged up, and I cannot hear a thing. So me and Steve are on even ground, I suppose. But meds will help me recover... |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 994 Registered: Jun-08 | Meds and I'm sure a hot toddy. Rest up Nuck, put some smooth relaxing tunes on and get some sleep. Hope ya feel better soon. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13453 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks George, but I REALLY cant hear a thing! |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1001 Registered: Jun-08 | Get that check Nuck, seriously. If it's an infection you need to get on antibiotics or risk damage to your hearing. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13456 Registered: Dec-04 | huh? I will see a vet tomorrow, George. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2892 Registered: Oct-04 | People take their reindeers to the vet? I should note that everyone here should be proud of me; I resisted several Harman eBay auctions last night (Saturday nights are always the best time to snipe an auction); an HK3480 for $79, a DVD48 (universal w/1080p) for $68, and a P362 for $73. Time was when I would pick-off this gear and deal with the repercussions later. If you want to talk about where the lines begin to get skewed between "High-End" & "Budget", look no further than the above deals. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13462 Registered: Dec-04 | The time will come again, CM. From the guy who has no repercussions. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1361 Registered: Nov-04 | a 3480 for $79?!?! Thats amazing. I would have jumped on like so quick. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2894 Registered: Oct-04 | If I didn't have a HK3485 already, so would've I. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 14 Registered: Jul-09 | http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html here you go nick, if you can hear a difference it should be no problem for you to win the 1 million dollars. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2896 Registered: Oct-04 | Yeah "Nick"! So Steve, what gear are you sporting these days? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13921 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.stereophile.com/thinkpieces/021708swiftboat/ Fair and balanced, Steve-o, fair and balanced. . |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2897 Registered: Oct-04 | "Why doesn't he and the others snarl at people who spend $500 on a bottle of wine and then drink it, and it's gone? I don't get why they single out audiophiles. If a guy or gal wants to spend $20,000 on a watch that tells time with no greater accuracy than a Swatch, so what if they've got the money? Same with audio." By sighting these examples, I think Michael Fremer undermined his own argument; I read it as "Look, a $500 bottle of wine or a $20K watch aren't worth it either, but if you've got the money, feel free to piss it away." A $500 bottle wine may be an exceptional vintage of which there is very little supply, a $20K mechanical watch may be of similar limited supply & might have taken dozens of man-hours to assemble, so one might be able to justify the asking price. Does anyone think this is the case with $13K speaker cables? But hey, it's someones money, and someones commission, not to mention someones advertiser, so who am I say what a length of cable is worth? Let the buyer beware. ON A SIDENOTE: I've been laid-up with a back injury the past few weeks and was watching ShopNBC where they were selling Invicta watches. They take calls during the show, and caller after caller said the owned dozens, even hundreds of Invicta watches, one guy claimed to own over 360 of them! I think that's insane, but it's their own money and they're free to do what they want with it, plain & simple. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13479 Registered: Dec-04 | Good lord, CM, you are in worse shape than me! I do the roadshows... |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2898 Registered: Oct-04 | I DVR Antique Roadshow, no joke. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2899 Registered: Oct-04 | You know what, I've never seen them appraise any vintage Hi-Fi gear? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13481 Registered: Dec-04 | Never saw it either, kinda wondered aout the Brit show. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3047 Registered: Feb-07 | How'd ya hurt your back Chris? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2900 Registered: Oct-04 | I hurt my back 20-yrs ago playing basketball and I've had intermittent bouts of lower back pain ever since. I've been diagnosed with several herniated disks & lumbar stenosis. The doctors say operate, I say never. About 5-yrs ago I developed partial paralysis of my right leg during one particularly bad episode. This was when I sought out some sort of non-evasive solution & stumbled across a spinal decompression treatment program called Vax-D that worked like a charm. I was fortunate the program could be billed through a Neurologist, not so fortunate when I sought this same doctor out last year when my back was acting up and found out that he had been arrested for insurance fraud, and was out of business. I could not find another doctor that accepted insurance for the treatment, and the out of pocket cost was several thousand dollars. I knew for a fact that I could buy one of these machines on eBay for about the same price as the program, but I didn't want to do that either. So what did I do? I did the next best thing, I bought a $40 inversion table off of craigslist and it worked just as well, if not better. I had relief after just a few days of inverting for about 10-mins about 4-5 times/day. That was a year ago, and I've been relatively pain free since, but about 2-weeks ago I played volley ball, and after a few hours of bending it like Beckham (sorry, I don't know any volley ball players), and a 2-hr. drive home, my back was a wreck, and it's been a slow road back to recovery. I've been hanging upside down, icing, heating, eating (not good) and watching too much TV ever since. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1407 Registered: Apr-05 | Sorry to hear about that Chris. Speaking as someone who has lived with a chronic, though thankfully not painful, physical condition for all my life, I can empathize with your condition. Back to Mr. Fremer's article, though it is very difficult for either side who subscribe to hard camps in regards to MP3/Ipods vs. CD/records to convince the other, I am going to predict that an electronic capture of music will improve to a point someday that it will be difficult to tell it's medium. If for no other reasons than environmental, cost of shipping, and high cost of retail floor space, the use of media to store and transport music will decrease substantially. I'm just as convinced that the days of MP3 as a medium are numbered. The whole reason why MP3 came about was the expense of storing full blown music on tiny devices as well as lack of high speed internet access to download and share music. Those issues are both going away and I expect to see better digital recording of audio available for downloading. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3050 Registered: Feb-07 | Good point Stof. The problem is now that we have an entire generation of music listeners who don't know the difference between low-fi and hi-fi, and couldn't care less. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13924 Registered: May-04 | . "A $500 bottle wine may be an exceptional vintage of which there is very little supply, a $20K mechanical watch may be of similar limited supply & might have taken dozens of man-hours to assemble, so one might be able to justify the asking price. Does anyone think this is the case with $13K speaker cables?" CM, you've just fallen into the most basic trap of this argument. Whenever anything such as cables is debated the cost of something outrageous is immediately mentioned as if it is the cost that matters. The argument you need to make is whether cables make a difference at all. If you think they don't, then the cost of any cable beyond 18 AWG zipcord is preposterous and the argument ends there for you. If you think there is something to cables, then the highest priced cable is not relavent to you. The only cable that is relevant to you is the one you wish to spend your money on. If that is a $100 cable or a $13k cable, the decision is yours - as you say it's your money and you get to spend it as you wish as long as the money was not made yours illegally and you hurt no one else by spending the money. Switching the issue to outrageous cost is merely inserting a strawman into the discussion (http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=define%20strawman%20argument&type=)- one that makes everyone's neck snap back at the thought of the outlandish consumption that takes place and that we cannot participate in. It is class warfare at that point and audio is lost in the silliness and the dishonesty of the issue. However, as I stated in another thread, if you spend $1mil on your system, that is very likely to be less of your total income/net worth than what most of us are spending on our own systems. Cost itself is not the issue here. Perceived value is the issue and that is no different for a $500 bottle of wine or a $20k watch. If you don't know someone with a $20k watch, then you should investigate the ads for a $20k watch that state, "It takes less time to build one that it does to deserve one". That word "deserve" is a very powerful motivator in our society. Fremer's point comes down to audiophile products being attacked as unprovably better by Steve's "objective" data or, in the most overwrought cases, as examples of the "paranormal" as Randi tries to tie cable sound to spirits and UFO's and other things he wishes to debunk to make a name for himself. The issue with Fremer wound around and around with the usual slurs on Fremer's character being injected by the pro-Randi participants and you can decide who did what and who pulled out of what but needless to say the $1mil never left either Randi's or Fremer's account. As Steve's posts prove, the entire debate is dishonest and has become nothing more than a continuous form of personal ego stroking for many who do this for years on numerous forums. Steve didn't answer any claims made for the high end, he just repeats his stance that he cannot find objective data that satisfies him. And he never will, that's how this game is played by the objectivists. If you read Fremer's "Music Angle" website (http://www.musicangle.com/), or if you read the various forums and blogs, you'll find out there is never enough evidence to satsify the naysayers. Fremer has proven he can perceive different cables. demagnetized LP's and CD's and high end electronics and turntables in so called DBT's as have several high end writers and manufacturers, yet Steve and his ilk continue their copy/paste assualt of demanding DBT's and claiming they are proof of no difference. Ignoring what has been disproven is the geratest refuge of those who prefer not to prove anything. Constantly demanding more proof from others is their second best tool in their arsenal of dishonest attacks. I've been engaged in threads where the same person claimed DBT's were the gold standard of proof and then turned around and argued that moving your head so much as 1" between A&B negates all subjective proofs in a DBT. Whenever anyone claimed to be capable of hearing differences between anything other than speakers, he would immediately challenge you to a $100 bet with his own contrived DBT. If anyone needs the inconsistency of that argument explained to them, they probably shouldn't be on this forum. Steve-o doesn't even make an attempt to dispove what Frank or anyone else has said about why the high end is the high end and not just all a bunch of rebadged Oppos. He just continues with his demand for "proof" in the form of photos and manufacturer specs. Even when Fremer or any other subjective listener makes an attempt to satisfy the objectivists naysayers the naysayers discount the proof with objections of the test not being scientific enough to satisfy them and demands for even more proof that might satisfy them but never will. So they already know they can never be satisfied and their entire game is to never be satisfied. As long as they are not satsified, then they are content the issue is not resolved and if the issue is not resolved they can continue to ignore any proof or any argument. This is the same tact taken by any partisan group to defeat the other side. Whether you agree or disagree with their premise, the naysayers cling to a small group who are not convinced. As long as there remains one person they can point to who remains unconvinced, that is sufficient to discount any other proof. This is the dishonesty that comes from either side of an on line argument and your job is to see through any disingenuous statements that are made and think for yourself. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13485 Registered: Dec-04 | I think, therefore I am. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1408 Registered: Apr-05 | Actually David I'm finding that as people become more technology savvy, they are also asking questions and finding differences. Sometimes it is as simple as someone going through the options on ripping a CD and asking what's the difference between MP3 format and a lossless? Digging in they are realizing and opting for better quality. Simple stuff but gaining momentum. Just recently I was asked to review a web commerce business proposal involving music. I suggested some fundamental changes to the proposition that really opened their eyes regarding format quality. Now mind you these are musicians backed by investors from a corporate giant. It was surprising to me, but also provided a "teachable" moment. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13489 Registered: Dec-04 | How many musicians listen to mp3's on an ipod? A lot, I bet, for the same reasons that other people do. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 15 Registered: Jul-09 | Hardware in processors can have a discussion but cables making a audible difference has been proven wrong by measurements and DBT's. Remember on avsforum when on of the high enders failed the DBT with his $30,000 transparent cables, he was so upset that he left the forum for a while. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13925 Registered: May-04 | . DBT's and ABX's are bogus and do not deserve any discussion here. As I have said, many forums prohibit discussion of DBT's for just this reason. And, Steve, you still have not addressed any comments in favor of the high end. Simply copy/pasting information about DBT's and measurements of cables is not a discussion any more than looking at photos is a proof. How many forums are you doing this on, Steve? And how many names are you using to do this on how many forums? You are the charlatan of this situation. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13499 Registered: Dec-04 | Steve's coat hanger speaker runs are evidence of the obviousness of his arguements. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3059 Registered: Feb-07 | How do you splice coat hangers? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13511 Registered: Dec-04 | use the twisty parts. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3063 Registered: Feb-07 | and lots of electrical tape... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13512 Registered: Dec-04 | Thats what Steve did, it's all the same, after all. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1362 Registered: Nov-04 | Jan, like I pointed out at the beginning of the thread just google his name and you get: personal injury lawyer, and countless memberships to audio forums with the same thread titles, same links, same pics same everything. Then you see on AVSforum a posting from the Steve where he brags about his very expensive HT setup, $85,000 to be exact. Oh, and according to this link, he is a moderator for a Theta digital forum. He apparently owns a whole set of Theta components, a whole set of nice and expensive Ariel Acoustics speakers and 3 subs, a dedicated 100A circuit just for his HT and he is a sucker for "tweaks" like whole house noise supression, expensive cables like "Super High Resolution HDMI and fancy multi-silver layered interconnects like so. Hmmmmm, can't just all be coincidence. Who woulda guessed. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1363 Registered: Nov-04 | HAHA, I just found you Steve HI! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13514 Registered: Dec-04 | Oh man, a LAWYER?!? I liked Steve better when he was just a troll! |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3065 Registered: Feb-07 | Not just a lawyer, Nuck - an ambulance chasing lawyer. The worst form, after divorce lawyers. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1365 Registered: Nov-04 | The wonders a google search can do. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13926 Registered: May-04 | . Yep, CL, we both nailed Steve-o way back here, "Steve, any objective data on the difference between a civil rights attorney and an ambulance chaser?" Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 11:33 am: https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/581691.html http://www.arizonagetwellattorney.com/ A bit of a creepy troll if you ask me. Now the question is, just how much time do we alot Stevie before we give him the ol' heave-ho? I say no more. Steve is on a trolling mission and he is only interested in what he wants to see and read. You aren't going to get anywhere with a troll so, why bother? . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13519 Registered: Dec-04 | I think we may be suffering a Stevie shortage anyhow. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3478 Registered: May-05 | Chris Molloy and anyone else with herniated discs - Get either of Robin McKenzie's books - http://www.amazon.com/Treat-Your-Back-Robin-McKenzie/dp/0958269238 http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Life-Rapidly-Relieve/dp/0452282772 I have the second one, but I imagine the first one is just as good. Robin McKenzie is a world reknowned Physical Therapist, specializing on disc problems. This guy knows his stuff inside out, and makes it very easy to understand. I use his principals all the time in rehabing athletes with disc problems. I also did the same for my wife. Any questions, shoot me a PM. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2908 Registered: Oct-04 | Thank you "Stu". I'm somewhat familiar with McKenzie's work from my Physical Therapy days (I worked with a PT that was something like a groupie), but it's been a while, I'll definitely look into it. Have you every heard of Vax-D or any other mechanical spinal decompression therapy? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3479 Registered: May-05 | I've heard of Vax-D in passing, but that's about it. I know a bit more of other stuff, but have no experience with it. I've probably rehabed about 20-30 people with herniated discs over the last 10 years. Most were Football linemen. Some were family members. The McKenzie stuff worked very well every time. A lot of them have had Cortizone injections and other therapy before hand. They all said it was just temporary fixes. The McKenzie stuff worked better short term and long term that just about anything else any of them did. Most got off long term meds and only take the occasional 2 or 3 Advil. The McKenzie stuff only works for people who have herniations that face the back, not the front (herniation facing the abdomen). Front facing herniations are extremely rare. I haven't seen one, nor has anyone I've worked beside. I'd imagine the only ones who've rehabbed them are spine specialists. Maybe my numbers are skewed a bit. But if there's anything I firmly believe in in my field, its the McKenzie exercises. I'll PM you why it works physiologicaly when I get a few minutes. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1410 Registered: Apr-05 | I'm worried that you guys are hijacking Mr. Bruzonsky's highly valuable thread. I've been keeping my $43,000 in the bank waiting to get the final judgment on whether or not to spend it on the cables. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3480 Registered: May-05 | I wonder which cables are re-badged Radio Shack cables. Cardas? Audio Quest? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 2909 Registered: Oct-04 | You know, it's a shame Radio Shack hasn't pursued Hi-Fi more seriously? I think a lot of people head there when shopping around for gear. Their Optimus electronics has been re-badged gear for almost as long as I can remember (Sherwood, RCA, etc.) but the Optimus/Linaeum speakers they built about a decade ago were fantastic & well received; you would think they would've followed it up with something comparable? |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 17 Registered: Jul-09 | Sorry but I am a different steve. ABX and DBT's are final and prove that the golden ear boys can not hear a difference. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14070 Registered: May-04 | . I thought you guys set out the troll traps. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13700 Registered: Dec-04 | full of mice. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 19 Registered: Jul-09 | Funny how people keep bringing up the troll comment, I provide proof that the high end does not use better parts or designs and that is all you can say? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3068 Registered: Oct-04 | "I provide proof that the high end does not use better parts or designs and that is all you can say?" That's a pretty broad statement, wouldn't you say? You've really done nothing of the sort, you've sighted a few examples where a component may be an example of rebadging, or may simply be built from a shared foundation. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 20 Registered: Jul-09 | May be rebadging? They admit to only changing the power supply section. That aside I have proven that high end processors do not use better DAC's or analog pre amp construction and design. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3069 Registered: Oct-04 | I feel like it's !@#$ing Groundhogs Day! So aside from the power supplies,they are EXACTLY the same, oh OK, I mean it's not like power supplies matter...right? Mind if I ask where you got your law degree from? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3574 Registered: May-05 | HOLY CRAP!!!! MY TIME MACHINE WORKS!!!! ITS 3 MONTHS AGO ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!!!!! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13980 Registered: Dec-04 | Right on time for Steve to troll the night... " I got you Babe"... |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1387 Registered: Nov-04 | http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=19 There you go Chris. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3071 Registered: Oct-04 | http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16725555#post16725555 For someone that seems to have invested so much time, effort, and cash into HT, it seems you are incapable of getting past this quasi-bogus rebadging issue. Look long & hard on this board, and you will find that most members have both feet (and ears) rooted in value based systems, rarely having spent more than a few $K on their entire systems; I count myself amongst their ranks. Do you feel as if after all was said & done, you were bamboozled by HT snakeoil salesmen, so now this is your way of exacting revenge? If that's the case, you better up your game, because to date, your arguments leave MUCH to be desired. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 649 Registered: Oct-07 | Steve, I've done experimental design as part of my job duties for 25yrs+ and can tell you that DBT has a few problems when applied to stereo and people. Arrangements and setup are nutty hard, making sure it is truly 'blind' is also difficult not to mention the reference system. Also, than you get down to 'is it better or different' arguments. I'd love for it to work but there are many practical roadblocks. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 22 Registered: Jul-09 | ""I feel like it's !@#$ing Groundhogs Day! So aside from the power supplies,they are EXACTLY the same, oh OK, I mean it's not like power supplies matter...right? Mind if I ask where you got your law degree from?"" How would a power supply make a difference in a digital signal? Are you saying that the stock oppo power supply has a negative effect on the performance of the player? |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 23 Registered: Jul-09 | ""leo stierer Steve, I've done experimental design as part of my job duties for 25yrs+ and can tell you that DBT has a few problems when applied to stereo and people. Arrangements and setup are nutty hard, making sure it is truly 'blind' is also difficult not to mention the reference system. Also, than you get down to 'is it better or different' arguments. I'd love for it to work but there are many practical roadblocks."" Not really, people only bad mouth DBT's becuase they always fail them and they are disappointed that their ears are not as golden as they thought. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3079 Registered: Oct-04 | I'm saying it has an effect, and that two things are different if they they are not exactly the same; it's not a hard concept to grasp. So how much cash & effort have you plunked-down & exerted to satiate your golden ears? I mean given what I've seen of your set-up, you must be able to distinguish the most subtle variables, right, because why else would someone indulge themselves to the extent that you have? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14030 Registered: Dec-04 | How would a power supply make a difference in a digital signal? Are you saying that the stock oppo power supply has a negative effect on the performance of the player? SB Have you ever heard of jitter? Clock rates are determined by stability of a power supply. Despite your reference to jitter being inaudible(sic), i suggest that you look into what a power supply does in a switching device. The outputs are turned FULLY on or FULLY off in the switch, and a difference of nano-seconds will make the device useless. A power supply which can make available steady voltage and current under the switching is key. Generally, builders use NFB for this purpose, bringing output signal back to input as a 'buffer' of sorts. In that case, taken too far, the power supply is negated in its importance, as the output is running the show and overcorrection, or cheap shite sound is the result. Also bear in mind the output filter and cap that is used in a switching power supply type output, filtering the highest frequencies. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 26 Registered: Jul-09 | Nuck, jitter is not audible at current levels so that is irrelevant. Do you just assume that theta would have a "better" power supply then oppo? Since theta can not build a BD player from scratch but oppo can would it not make more sense for oppo to have the better engineering team and be able to design something as simple and basic as a power supply? |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 27 Registered: Jul-09 | Christopher Molloy, I am not that steve, since the gear is not 100% the same you have a point but why assume that the more expensive high end gear would sound better? Are these minor differences audible, I would say not since we have proof from DBT's that they are not. The high end, its users, and its reviewers have always stated that the gear is night and day from a basic receiver. I have pointed out that this is not correct with DBT's, parts used, and measurements. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3085 Registered: Oct-04 | "...why assume that the more expensive high end gear would sound better?" I don't, I simply state that THE TWO ARE NOT THE SAME, as you continue to insist! Look at my profile, take a look at what I own, and draw your own conclusions, but don't presume that I wouldn't jump at the opportunity to own McIntosh or Wilson gear if my personal finances ever afforded me the opportunity. I own a very nice Wenger GST Sea wristwatch that uses a Vajoux 7750 movement. The Valjoux 7750 is used in some other much more expensive wristwatches from manufacturers like Omega, Longines, Breitling, Oris, Appella, TAG Heuer, IWC, Porsche Design, Sinn, and others; should I insist that my Wenger is the same as these watches? If two (or ten) components share a basic architecture, with only minor functional or cosmetic variations, it is up to the consumer to decide whether or not any price differences are justified, bit you; wouldn't you say that is a fair statement? |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 31 Registered: Jul-09 | Christopher Molloy, ok then lets move on from being the "same" to at what point does the "differences" become audible. From the DBT's that have been conducted it shows that the differences are not audible in sources, processors, amps, the only difference is the speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1390 Registered: Nov-04 | Where have these DBTs been performed that you so adamantly profess to? You constantly refer to these DBTs that have been conducted but not once have you actually referenced one. There was a person on this forum not too long ago that had the same shtick as you going all ho hum about lexicon receivers and how they are exactly the same as HK receivers based solely on pictures which chris malloy referenced to earlier in this thread. Unless you have real references to these DBTs that you so closely cling to then please just stop. We have already called you out and it is frankly quite pathetic that you continue to think we need some kind of salvation. You would be better suited going to a Bose forum and telling them that their gear sounds like sh!t. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3086 Registered: Oct-04 | Do you mean to say that you have never heard the difference in similarly spec'd components? Are the "differences" worth paying up perhaps several hundred, thousand, or 10's of thousands of dollars; it depends? You haven't spent much time on this board other than to toss an occasional bomb, and check back from time to time to see the damage. If you had spent some time here, perhaps you would have noticed that the regulars offer sound advise to any inquiries, how & where to allocate funds to best meet a member's goal is a fairly regular one. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 32 Registered: Jul-09 | Christopher Lee, does no one on here know how to use google? Try doing some very basic research. Christopher Molloy, subjective opinions are not sound advice. I want to know when are these "differences" audible and what "differences" equate to improved sound quality. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1391 Registered: Nov-04 | Steve, I want YOU to provide the proof for YOUR claim. Try learning how to make an argument. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3094 Registered: Oct-04 | "Christopher Molloy, subjective opinions are not sound advice. I want to know when are these "differences" audible and what "differences" equate to improved sound quality." So advice from a doctor, an engineer, or a baker is invalid because it's "subjective", right? I suggest you go to your local Hi-Fi shop, listen to several amps, CDPs, and more specifically, pre-amps through the speakers of your choice, if you don't hear a difference, congratulations, you can buy whatever gear tickles your fancy. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 35 Registered: Jul-09 | [quote]Christopher Lee Steve, I want YOU to provide the proof for YOUR claim. Try learning how to make an argument.[/quote] I did, I provided physical proof that the high end does not use better parts such as DAC's and they do not use better designs. I provided measurements and benchmarks to prove that high end audio does not out perform the receiver competition. Above all that there are plenty of DBT's to back up my findings. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 36 Registered: Jul-09 | [quote]Christopher Molloy So advice from a doctor, an engineer, or a baker is invalid because it's "subjective", right? I suggest you go to your local Hi-Fi shop, listen to several amps, CDPs, and more specifically, pre-amps through the speakers of your choice, if you don't hear a difference, congratulations, you can buy whatever gear tickles your fancy.[/quote] Sorry but those professions that you picked do not have subjective opinions. So you don't know if there is a audible difference and you don't know how a products design will affect sound quality. If you don't know and you are 100% subjective in audio why not just say so? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3117 Registered: Oct-04 | "Sorry but those professions that you picked do not have subjective opinions." When was the last time you went to the doctor with something wrong, only to visit another with an entirely different take on the matter; give two engineers the same task and see if the two come up with the same exact answer; or ask two bakers how to bake a baguette? All very SUBJECTIVE opinions, hopefully based to degree or another on science & fact. "If you don't know and you are 100% subjective in audio why not just say so?" As opposed to what, a 100% objective analysis of sound as perceived through the human ear? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14154 Registered: Dec-04 | Stevie boy, the tricks are in the software. |
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Gold Member Username: Touche6784USA Post Number: 1392 Registered: Nov-04 | Steve, you have not provided any proof. The "proof" you have provided may convince yourself, but the rest of the world does not see what you are seeing as evidenced by all the other posts in all the other forums you are tried to post at. I have not seen you reference any measurements, benchmarks, DBTs or anything for that matter. All you have are pictures and those pictures at best provide a speculation of what could be different in different units. I would like you to specifically reference any DBT, measurements and benchmarks to prove your point. When you make a claim you have to reference proof to back it up. I thought an ambulance chasing lawyer like yourself would have known that by now. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 42 Registered: Jul-09 | This is getting old, can anyone provide some objective data that would support this improved audio quality in high end products? |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1464 Registered: Apr-05 | Yep I agree it is getting old. I suggest you treat it as such and leave it alone like the rest of us. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 43 Registered: Jul-09 | Its getting old as in I am the only one who is providing any objective information. In normal fashion the high end supporters and not provide and technical information to support their claims. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14365 Registered: Dec-04 | In normal fashion, only one zealot is pushing his own agenda, when others disagree to the point that you are being ignored, as trolls usually are. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 47 Registered: Jul-09 | Where is their measurements and design explanations that would explain this increase in audio "quality" so far there has been no objective data fro their side to support what they are hearing. Much like the lexicon BD-30 review from homtheatermag it shows what people will think or hear when not knowing the facts. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2940 Registered: Jun-07 | Moron. Your a Moron. Moron. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3537 Registered: Feb-07 | lol. Don't hold back Nick. Tell us how you really feel. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2941 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL!!! Just having some fun. Good times..good times David. |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 50 Registered: Jul-09 | So nick where is your proof? |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 61 Registered: Jul-09 | Nothing from the high end penut gallery. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3176 Registered: Oct-04 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome |
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Platinum Member Username: InsearchofbassYork, Pennsylvania Post Number: 13341 Registered: Jun-04 | "If you can't tell definitively, check out a new hobby, like tying flies or whatever." LOL |
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Bronze Member Username: Steve_bruzonskyPost Number: 85 Registered: Jul-09 | "Christopher Molloy Although not required for diagnosis, physical clumsiness and atypical use of language are frequently reported." Hmm, that sounds like your typical audiophools get together. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3194 Registered: Oct-04 | If you included "...and a propensity towards the consumption of vast qualities of 12-year old Islay Scotch Whisky & spontaneous singing", well then I might agree. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14653 Registered: Dec-04 | It all reads like my resume... |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, MI USA Post Number: 12446 Registered: Dec-03 | "But as you can see in the pictures the high end does not run better power suplies and most of them only run 1 or 2 independant power supply sections. Most of them do not even run toroid's." look at the Onkyo 1007 vs the 5007 as an example. The 5007 employs 3 separate power supplies for audio, video, and amplification circuits. It uses a large toroidal transformer, and discrete circuitry, all of which lead to a more dynamic and cleaner output stage. "Then why does the high end not measure better when benchmarked? A DSP will operate the same in either a cheap receiver or a high end processor, all 1's and 0's, there are no varianaces." measure better at what precisely? They don't all function the same, because the implementation of any given chipset isn't the same across the board. This argument of one chipset makes everything equal is like comparing every motherboard for a PC that uses the same chipset, and saying as such, they will all perform equally. This just isn't the case. The entire circuitboard matters, not just the chipset itself. "And I wonder who can do a better job, an entire reseach team or one person." Ask Nelson Pass. "What chips are better in the high end?" Reon instead of the Feroudja DCDi chipset in the above example. "Sound better how?" Less coloration, and lower distortion at the switch point if we're talking a class AB amplifer topography. |
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