Hello all, its been a while between posts, but I see many of the same "characters" are still lurking around these friendly parts.
Anyway, I've had my existing system now for 3 or so years and I have a 40th coming up so off the back of these two items I've managed to negotiate with my better half a bit of a upgrade budget. My conundrum is where do I go? My initial thoughts are - source first, this being an upgrade from a Rega P3 to a Rega P7. The other train of thought is upgrading my existing Nait 5i to the lovely new Nait XS.
Both of these upgrades will obviously get me further up the sonic tree, but would be interested in everybodys thoughts of which approach is the better upgrade path or bang for buck. I tend to think source first will give me my biggest gains, so its the Rega P7.
Source upgrades are qualitative rather then quantitative. There isn't much change in frequency response between the two Rega tables but there are improvements to be had in less definable areas.
I would ask, what are your priorities? What is it you expect to hear by upgrading the source components? If these are out of line with what can reasonably be achieved with a new turntable - I assume you'll keep the same cartridge - then I would say reconsider your plan. Unless you are tied to the Rega sound, I would further suggest a more dramatic upgrade to the vinyl source.
I don't really listen to CD's much anymore, its all vinyl (new & old). I suppose rough train of thought was upgrade turntable, then cartridge, then amp, then speakers. Or perhaps speakers then amp in the last part. This is over a couple of years to evolve the system to the next level.
Happy to listen to other thoughts, just thought source first would be the way to go.
As a side note, I did have a home demo of the XS over a long weekend, I was impressed, but I've got to admit it didn't absolutely blow me away, which tended to make me think my P3 setup may be holding it back. Interested to think if anyone thinks the P7 would be to much for the Nait 5i. I was under the impression it was capable of more, especially since a lot of people recommend better CD players (ie CD5x) up the range with the 5i so why not a better turntable?
As to speakers I like them and they suited my budget when I first bought my system, but I know obviously I can do better, just thought they would have perhaps the least impact overall.
Again not fixed to this upgrade path, but seemed the logical choice.
I am a bit surprised that nobody mentioned room treatments, cabling, speaker placement, or attention to the electrical impacts on a system. Then there's the Peter Belt philosophy to consider.
So John, tell us about the room you have your system in, is it shared with the HT system or a dedicated set up?
Do you have proper isolation and damping for your equipment or have you experimented with any of this?
What are you connecting everything with, someone above suggested an all Naim wire set up perhaps?
Have you invested in any room treatments, either bookshelves, carpets, or bass traps?
Do you use any type of power line conditioning or have a dedicated circuit(s) for your kit?
Have you ever read up on the free tweaks advertised by Peter Belt?
These are all of the things I found that optimized my system to where I believe I am getting everything I can out of each component I have. Having an understanding of what your system is capable of goes a long way in determining your next steps, IMHO.
John, Michael provides sound advice. Those of us who have followed his systematic upgrades and tweaks know the benefits he has been able to obtain with room treatment, isolation, and the like. Some experimentation here is worth the effort.
Afterwards, or if you need to act fast before your better half changes her mind, I agree with Jan in that I would lean towards a larger vinyl upgrade. Since vinyl is your emphasis, that is where I would make the investment.
Will look into the free tweeks by Peter Belt, in short the room is a open plan dining, living, kitchen area on a timber floor. 2 channel only, I'm not bothered with HT. Limited scope for acoustic treatments, and this is our common living area, which I like, everybody get stuck into the music!, But I will look into other tweeks.
Larger vinyl upgrade? What exactly do we mean by this? Another turntable?
Well, as far as the vinyl upgrade, I don't want to put words in Jan's mouth, but I think we were saying an upgrade greater than moving to the P7 unless you were sold on the Rega/Naim combination.
However, based on the info about your room and the "limited scope for acoustic treatments", I would defer expenditures on upgrades at least until you are satisfied the existing setup is optimized for the room. Do some more research on some of the less obtrusive room treatments and isolation and try some inexpensive tweaks with the existing gear. A lot of times this "research" is no more sophisticated than throwing a couple of large pillows around in different spots to see if there is any improvement. Folks here have achieved substantial improvement using everything from plumbing products and building supplies to sports equipment. If you cannot significantly improve on the sound with some tweaks that leave the space acceptable to you and your spouse, you might be wasting your money upgrading the TT. There is always one component that is limiting the overall performance--many times that is the environment itself. Better to know what you're up against before shelling out a lot of cash.
I think the system at home sounds pretty good, and I don't think it sounds quite as good as my old place with concrete floors but its not bad. I think what I'm after in an upgrade is just that higher quality sound that the better components give you. ie blacker blacks, lower noise floor, better sound stage, better resolution. I find it hard to believe that if I bought a Gyro SE, VPI Scoutmaster or Rega P7 that under my present set-up, I wouldn't notice the difference due to acoustic, environmental and set-up limitations.
I'm not totally sold on the Rega P7, in fact after doing some research I'm additionally looking closely at the Mitchell Gyro SE with Technoarm. The Gyro appeals to me as it has further to go with platter, tonearm, bearing & power supplies upgrades. Just thought these tables seem in the same league and fitted my budget.
No doubt you would hear the improvement. What we are trying to convey to you is that with working on the room and isolation of your components you probably would hear much more of what you are after at a fraction of the cost and most likely would find it reasonable to keep your kit as is for a period.
It is a bit of a toss-up against the speakers. The XS should have been an amazing or at least very substantial upgrade. The 12Ls are reasonable speakers and I'd expect you to get lots more from a more capable amplifier and your sources.
If you do go up the ladder on the source front I wojuld suggest that the P7/Gyro level is where you should be. You can't have a source which is 'too much' for the amp. You are able to be in a position where the amp won't allow through the full capabilities of the source, but somehow sources always shine through once they're connected to quality kit (such as yours).
I have used the 10x5 cartridge on both the P7 and Gyro. In my view, and that of my colleagues, the match is happier with the Gyro. This isn't to say the P7 isn't a good deck - it's a brilliant deck, but not with the 10x5. They just don't gel. Put a Goldring 2500 on the P7 and the combination is magic. The Gyro works well with both cartridges but really sings with the 10x5. Given you have a Dynavector P-75, I'd suppose you'll be looking in future at Dynavectors such as the 20XL or 17D3 (a peach). These all work very well in the Gyro (assuming the Michell tecnoarm or better).
I am a bit nonplussed by the choice of Kimber and Nordost cables. I am a very strong proponent of using Naim speaker cable even though it's typically not as clean sonuding as the competition - and I hate what Nordost does to the sound (tears it apart in all its glory in my opinion). The Kimber is more on the Naim trail.
IMO blacker blacks come from source components since anything the source injects the following components must pass along. They also come from a very good subwoofer that gives a sense of open space to the music and possibly removes most of the BS movement your main speaker drivers must perform in an average system. A simple cartridge swap can also result in far less surface noise and less noticeable pops and clicks. For more silence from the source you need a vacuum type LP cleaner.
The ability of the system to remove itself from the sound also becomes far more apparent with AC lines that are in top notch shape, either through the luck of owning your own generator or through some effort on your part to work with what the power company brings into your home. Dedicated lines, dedicated ground, AC conditioning, better than $1.50 outlets and power cables are a start.
If the source is operating in a decent fashion, a lowered noise floor is the result of better components throughout the system. This would include the AC lines and the physical enviroment of the home. System set up counts for large chunks in this regard as mechanical and air borne feedback is a destructive force when you are after silence. You treat a slab foundation differently than a pier and beam to get the best system sound. Where you position yourself and your equipment rack in relation to the speakers can make a large difference in the silence you hear as can what is between your speakers and your listening position.
"Better soundstage" and "better resolution"? Well, those are the modern equivalent of tighter bass and cleaner highs. We'd all prefer to have the best possible in these areas but saying that is what you want is rather a non-response. You could easily reason practically anything you do to improve a system would bring with it changes to the resolution and sounstaging. Working with your existing system just making certain the speakers are positioned correctly as is your listening chair would bring about changes in soundstaging and resolution. Those changes are absolutely free in dollar amounts and generally only require an investment in time. Using AC products will have similar results as will smartly chosen and positioned room treatments. (When thinking of room treatments do not limit yourself to the most conventional bales of fiberglass or refrigerator doors lining your walls. Room treatments are changing and your living room need not look like a recording studio to get very satisfactory results.)
Isolation components aimed at retreiving the most signal from your equipment without the addition of mechanical noise should certainly affect the soundstage and resolution. Better stands for your speakers and equipment should clearly make an improvement if you choose wisely and not just for a good deal cash-wise.
Or you can buy a more expensive turntable.
The point here is the laundry list of wants is pretty typical and the first response to buy something new that you can look at is common. There is very likely a good bit you could do to up the performance of your existing system. Buying a new turntable is only one of them.
Your choice should be either to optimize what you already have, making certain you are hearing the most music possible from this or any other system or to buy something new that will not perform to its best within the existing system. If you don't feel cables and accessories make audible improvements, then that is one thing. But from what you list as your system there should be quite a ways to travel with your current components. Improvements need not come from large expenditures and all at once. Exploring the potential of your equipment is, to many of us, an enjoyable journey into small step by step changes that add up to large cumulative improvements.
I would tend to suggest you need to first spend a few weekday afteroons at a good audio salon. Find a time when the shop isn't busy and they can allow you a few auditions of various possibilities in a relaxed atmosphere. Experiment with what they have to offer and go with what you feel offers the best route to where you wish to be.
Several of us have found we can improve our system by not changing the system at all. Thinking only in the most simple terms of "I must change the signal to change the sound" is missing a good bit of what you have to work with. To reach the level of thinking that says you can get more music by taking away something - not always a physical "something" - is more difficult than the idea you must buy a new gizmo.
I wouldn't even tell the shop I was thinking of a new table. Let them lead you to where they think you should go. If they never ask you what you've done outside of the main components you own, then I'd probably find another shop. Find someone interested in your music and not in a quick sale.
Jan - Happy to hear some suggestions on where you think I could make improvements in my existing system, sorry for throwing in back to you but I've got limited experience in this area. Also thanks for the shopping tips, good to let the shop make the suggestions, problem I have is, my Naim dealer don't sell turntables of note, so as soon as I go to anther shop that does, and ask me what my kit is they instantly try and sell me other gear. So its hard to be subjective on their advice.
Frank - Yes I agree the 12Ls are perhaps holding the system back a bit, XS was better and was getting better, but it may have been a matter of being cold, needing time to warm up and run in. It was better but but like I said a little hard to tell at times. Also happy to hear where you think I should go cable wise. I suggest you are thinking Naim speaker cable & perhaps Chord interconnects out of the P75? Naim speaker cable is very cheap compared to the more exotic stuff so I'll get some runs of it made up and give it a go.
I'm really steering towards the Gryro SE now and yes you are right, I'll probably keep going down the Dynavector path, I'm quite keen in the 17D3, so that's on the radar. You've definitely got me thinking about speakers now and I think this may be my next upgrade after the turntable, but selection is limited in my area, its really down to B&W, Dynaudio, Quad & Neat in my area. I've heard good things about the Neat Motive 2's and Naim kit and was quite keen on these nice compact floorstanders, they are in my budget, and I hope will give me a nice upgrade.
Yes, Chord interconnects (Crimson or Cobra3 made up in RCA-DIN configuration are very very good combinations with Naim, even though Chord make some much more expensive stuff). Of course if you wanted to spend loads of money, there's Naim's own HiLine, available in any configuration you like and almost as expensive as your amplifier!
Naim's speaker cable is less expensive than many, and not as good in certain departments (typically resolution) than many, but it has a certain drive and power which most miss in a Naim environment. For best results you should have it made up with Naim's own SA8 banana plug connector, but if that's not available use rhodium plated plugs on the amp side rather than the more usual gold anodised solutions.
Yes I've seen the hi-line & powerline and yep, they're pricey, but I've seen on the Naim forum, guys with Naitn 5i and CD5i with them all tricked up!
I really think they make a difference, but on my level of kit I suspect its overkill. I may go down the path of some more reasonable power cord upgrades. But my head seems to think the money is better spent on saving for better kit, then once at that level, fine tune, so to speak.
Thanks for the tips on the speaker cable, I'll get some made up next week. Is there any rule of thumb for min/max lengths of cable?
Minimum length 3.5m a side, equal lengths (very important).
My experience with power cords on Naim (Chord Co, Nordost, Isotek, Black Rhodium) is that they either make little difference or make things sound worse by moving the presentation away from Naim's. The worst in this respect is Nordost which, although it does certain wonderful things, just kills the whole party as far as I'm concerned. The least destructive is Chord's power cord (although I haven't heard the newest addition yet) which makes little difference to me. Isotek is similar. Obviously the Naim Powerline makes big differences while sticking to the Naim presentation, but it's money. Personally I'd stay with the stock cords until I cojuld afford the best stuff since there seems little point in intermediate steps. My CDX2/282/Hicap/250.2 is all powered by stock cords (and very fine it is too).
It wasn't so long a go I remember a story about a magazine that reviewed a Naim system without the supplied stock power cords - needless to say Naim weren't happy and basically forfeited the review under the guise that its not a Naim unless you using the supplied leads. I find it interesting that Naim held the stock leads stand for power & interconnects for years - and now we have a range if very expensive additions. I'm sure there is improvements to be had but I'm a little skeptical and like you said, stock sounds just fine.
Hmm just demoed the Nait XS & Neat Motive 2's together, very nice combo, quite a big combined upgrade I feel and once I sell/trade everything, a similar upgrade price to just upgrading the turntable.
I suppose its a matter of system balance, so does it matter if you work from front to back, or back to front? Things are turned on a spin, I'm actually thinking seriously of going this way as I really can't seem to make my mind up on which turntable to buy, I'm really disappointed by the build quality of the P7 and the Gyro is perhaps a little too delicate and not necessarily family proof. This perhaps is the next logical step?
John, As you live just up the M1 from me I'll respond to a fellow Queenslander. My thoughts are go for the XS and the Neats if you feel that upgrade is going to satisfy you. Did you try that rig with your current T/T?
If you do go for it, will you get antsy and start on the T/T upgrade bug again? It's your money,and really only your ears are going to decide which is the right path for you.
I'm sure David wouldn't mind you taking in your T/T to test the rig if you haven't done so already.
Great to year from a fellow Queenslander. Yes definitely leaning towards the XS and Neats, funny you suggested bringing my turntable in to David's, I was thinking the same. I did a reasonably comprehensive demo, stepping from Nait 5i with the Quad 12Ls that I have to Nait with Neats, the XS with Neats, then XS, Neats & a flatcap - all demoed with the CD5i and all impressive stuff. Nait with Neats was enough of an upgrade to be honest.
As to the T/T upgrade bug, I'll be the first to admit that even if get the XS & Neats its not the end of the line, close but not quite there, I'd say I would be eyeing a TT upgrade soon enough, then perhaps a DAC as the whole music server thing is really starting to take off. I look at my system as a work in progress and over the years I'll keep chipping away at it until I feel enough is enough.
Then that seems like the way to go for you, John. I have a pair of 12L's as well as 22Ls, the latter I use in the 2 channel system. And while the 12's I think are a fabulous speaker, the 22's are similar but with a full range and sound terrific if placed correctly.
. I'm sure Frank has some good insight.