Archive through February 02, 2009

Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8751 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 01:44 GMT Well the first set went for over $41 and the second is up to near $40... no free lunch, cheap but not free...lol!
John Boy Walton Bronze Member Username: Peterhead Post Number: 39 Registered: Apr-08	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 14:46 GMT "Though they have smoothed out some (and will likely do even more in time). I can't say that I find the Beta's to be in the same league with Studio series Paradigms. I'm just not hearing it." Art And you probably won't. That's the problem with the inexpensive Infinitys.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8758 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 15:10 GMT If the problem with inexpensive Infinity's is that they don't sound quite as refined as speakers that would cost me 10 times more, then that's a problem I can live with...right.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2327 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 15:39 GMT Once again, the original MSRP on the Beta 20 was $199 ea., not exactly inexpensive, and again, given Harman's perchant to crosspolinate its super-premium product lines, like Lexicon & Revel, with its "inexpensive" lines, like HK & Infinity, the cost/value relationship is about as high as anyone is likely to find in the industry. Time is what these speakers need, time & patience, and all will be revealed Grasshopper. I hate to throw down a challenge, but what the heck; I challenge anyone to conduct a true double-blind comparison between, not only the Beta, but even the Primus series, to any comparable speaker in the sub-$1K category, and tell me they don't represent an obscene, uncompromising value.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8759 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 16:26 GMT Well here is the kicker from yesterday that I said I would reveal later... Has anyone here heard the JBL L830 Studio Monitor? I will when they arrive later this week. That's for another thread. I played these Beta's to death yesterday and will keep playing them all day today...then just quietly in the morning during the work week as usual. I'm not ready to give final impressions yet but I can say that they continue to improve and I continue to fuss with placement as they change. I'm getting pretty good results so far.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2328 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 16:32 GMT I hope you like dance music with those JBL. I'm afraid Art may need an intervention fellas.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8760 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 16:41 GMT If the midrange and high end are good I can handle a little extra bass.
Nick K Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10 Post Number: 2322 Registered: Jun-07	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 16:46 GMT Chris I will do a blind test against the beta20 and the Monitor Audio Silver RS6's. I only paid a grand taxes in CDN for the 6's. Fair? lol. Just got back from T.O this morning, going to actually call my dealer Monday.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11472 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 17:46 GMT Well, this is getting into a listening war. Giant killer Beta's?
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8762 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 18:02 GMT The war between the RS6's and the Beta's won't last long... So Christopher I wasn't quite sure what you meant by "hope you like dance music". Have you heard those particular JBL's? I haven't read a single bad thing about them. Perhaps you can elaborate.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8764 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 18:38 GMT I have a asked a friend, who is also an occasional visitor and member of this forum, to bring over his B&W 685's for a comparison...hopefully he will accept. Now that would be fun!
Nick K Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10 Post Number: 2324 Registered: Jun-07	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 19:11 GMT Sounds like a hoot Art.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2329 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 19:29 GMT No, I haven't listened to those JBL, and I've read the positive reviews too, so I suspect they're pretty good, but most of the similar JBLs I've listened to in the past (and it has been a while) have been noticeably skewed towards the low-end. Apples to apples, if you want to compare the RS6 to something, try to dig up a pair of Beta 40.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8766 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 19:49 GMT "Apples to apples, if you want to compare the RS6 to something, try to dig up a pair of Beta 40." Kind of what I was thinking as well.
John Boy Walton Bronze Member Username: Peterhead Post Number: 40 Registered: Apr-08	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 20:12 GMT "If the problem with inexpensive Infinity's is that they don't sound quite as refined as speakers that would cost me 10 times more, then that's a problem I can live with...right." Art Well only you can answer that question. Always easier to rationalize an inexpensive and marginally useful purchase (or find some use for it) than to box it up and send it back or to admit it sucks.
Nick K Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10 Post Number: 2325 Registered: Jun-07	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 20:13 GMT The last time I heard the Beta 40's I remember thinking that they were absolute C R A P!! Why don't we just compare the Beta 40's to some B&W 802's or some Wilson's. This Infinity bull is getting out of control, they are a half decent speaker at BEST, for the money they are good. But like Nuck, I don't believe in ' good because they are 100 dollars'. If they are a great sounding speaker, and come at a value then fine, they are a great value. But if the speaker only sounds half decent, and costs really cheap, then its still only a half decent speaker. Maybe, it was the room, maybe a miss match of electronics. But when my wife was working at Crap Shop the Beta 40's were not even better than the Polks of that time period. I really can't wait to get my Beta20's, do or die I will get them. I want so see this 130 dollars speaker sound as good as a thousand dollar speaker. Because the speaker is bigger and has an extra woofer doesn't make it better. All the Beta40's are is a larger version of the 20's. With a bigger, crappier box and more grain on the top end.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8768 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 20:40 GMT "Always easier to rationalize an inexpensive and marginally useful purchase (or find some use for it) than to box it up and send it back or to admit it sucks." Might be easier for you JB but not for me. Ask any dealer I've ever dealt with. They'll tell ya that I'll ship something back to 'em in a heartbeat if I'm not satisfied. However in the case of the Beta's and the JBL's I can easily sell them for more than I paid...not a bad deal really. Now Nick don't get your undies in a bunch...lol! I agree with you whole heartedly about the value of the speaker vs it being an all out performer capable of knocking off Studio 20's or Silver series MA's. They just aren't THAT good. Kind of like I stated above...I'm looking to see if these will make a good recommendation for folks looking into entry level hifi. So far after a couple of days of break in I'd say that they do. That said so far I disagree with Tawaun and Christopher relative to the giant killer Beta's. What they appear to be is a very fine (though not best) $400 dollar pair of speakers that you just happen to be able to get cheap at present. I'm going to compare them to the Primus series for HT use (that's why I bought the center) and determine which stays and which goes. If the Beta's win then I'll keep them and the Primus 152's and get rid of the rest. If the Primus wins them I'll keep one pair of Beta's and be rid of the rest. Now I'm really looking forward to hearing the Diamond 9.1's and the JBL's. Hey Nick have ya heard the Studio L830's?
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2330 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 20:43 GMT Boy, this has taken a nasty turn. I sense some hostility, and that's really uncalled for, IMHO. Nick, why bother with the 20s? Given you're experience with the Polk'ish, crappier, grainy 40s, it would seem to be an exercise in futility? I don't think it's hard to deduce that two similarly sized & configured floorstanders, like the RS6 & 40, would lend itself to a more useful side by side evaluation. If you think the Betas are crap, you're entitled to your opinion, I just happen think your dead wrong, but then that would be my opinion. No one suggested the Betas are competitive with B&W 800 series or Wilsons, come on now, I suggested they're competitive with other comparable sub-$1K speakers, and I stick by that, as would virtually every review, pro & otherwise, on the web.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8769 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 20:49 GMT Bottom line is that we all like a different sound. When you get your Beta's Nick...make sure to run 'em in for a few days and also don't play any other speaker in the interim to get your ears used to the different sound that they present. I know that will be hard with the outstanding speakers you have but it should be fun as well.
Nick K Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10 Post Number: 2326 Registered: Jun-07	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 20:54 GMT Thanks Art, and no I havn't heard the L830's bud. I am curious about the diamond 9.1's though. Cool stuff man. Chris- If I can get them for a price comparable to what Art got them for, then if they suck I can just give them away to my bro or mother. Plus I would like to hear them on decent electronics as any audition at Best Junk and Future Turd is surely to sound awful as 100 percent of their electronics are huge pieces of $#IT. The only stuff I heard them on was an H/K avr and a yamaha cd player and both products want to make me open up a vein. I will give them a chance on the Bryston amp and see if my mind set changes on them. Cheers.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2331 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 21:19 GMT Good advise Art, and I look forward to your review Nick. Look, Art thinks the 20s are competitive up the $400 mark, I think they fare somewhat better than that, but then I've lived with them for some time and have come to love their sound. For the past few months, when someone chimes in looking for a pair of affordable speakers, I've had a hard time suggesting anything other than the Beta series from Harman's eBay store given their current prices, and given my fondness for them. Until they're all gone, I'm going to continue to urge people to consider this $50 gem. Well then there's the Primus...
John Boy Walton Bronze Member Username: Peterhead Post Number: 41 Registered: Apr-08	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 21:19 GMT No hostility on my part. Just calling it they way I see it. I intially indicated the speakers didn't make the transparency grade. Let's face it, Art may be the exception. Most folks would accept them and find some use and kick themselves in the butt.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2332 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 21:32 GMT Yeah, I'd be kicking myself in the butt for dropping a whole $130 for a pair of speakers like the 20s delivered to my door. In fact, I feel bad for Art, the poor guy is so delusional, that he actually coughed up a whole $100 more for another pair. When will this madness stop? Art, I'm here for you man.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8771 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 21:40 GMT Good post Christopher. No reason to kick oneself in the behind JB...kind of difficult too...lol! No really at their price they are a great bargain and they really are competitive up to the $400 mark to me. At that price every speaker represents some sort of compromise. For the Beta 20 it may be transparency or resolution..for the Epos ELS 3 it's dynamics for the Atom Monitor it's low end resolution and so on and so forth. I agree with Christopher that at the present street price they make an easy recommendation...and so too would the Primus 152 and 162 both of which have been reviewed by Stereophile (it was the Primus 150 which is only cosmetically different than the 152) and fared very well.
John Boy Walton Bronze Member Username: Peterhead Post Number: 42 Registered: Apr-08	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 21:48 GMT Yeah, I'd be kicking myself in the butt for dropping a whole $130 for a pair of speakers like to 20s delivered to my door. "In fact, I feel bad for Art, the poor guy is so delusional, that he actually coughed up a whole $100 more for another pair. When will this madness stop? Art, I'm here for you man." Your elitism is showing. That is one of the big knocks against this forum. For some folks $130 is a considerable some of money. Not for you "goldenears" I'm sure.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8772 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 21:59 GMT Guys this is not a contentious thread please don't make it that way. Let's have fun. Actually I used my ebay credit card and I knew that I could recoup the dough anytime if I didn't like what I heard.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2333 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 22:03 GMT In deference to my friend Art, I will refrain from flushing this thread right down the crapper.
Nick K Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10 Post Number: 2327 Registered: Jun-07	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 22:16 GMT Yeah my apologies if I seem a bit testy today. Not a lot sleep last night.lol. I can honestly say also that I have never heard these speakers on anything but crap electronics, in a crap environment. So I will take back what I said about the beta 40's and look forward to giving the 20's a real audition like Art is. Cheers Chris.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8773 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 22:17 GMT Thanks guys...much appreciated.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8778 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 01:37 GMT We are nearing the end of the weekend and I can say with certainty that Beta's have improved markedly over the weekend. My wife stated that even she noticed how vague they sounded to start with and that she can hear a remarkable difference now. Piano now sounds clear and strong with a very real sense of the percussive nature of the instrument. Voices are much better...cymbals remain a bit vague but are coming around. I'm playing Herbie Hancock's River cd and it sounds like a whole different cd than when I played it Thursday night...the Beta's have improved more with break in than any speaker I've owned...and they needed to because they had a long way to go. Well enough with these for this weekend. Must get some rest for tomorrow...I was nominated for employee of the year in my district and tomorrow is the awards ceremony. Don't really even want to go (makes me anxious)...I don't play office politics well enough to win...just feels good that my colleagues saw fit to nominate me. Time enough for just a bit more music.
Brian Tripp New member Username: B_tripp Madison, WI USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 05:06 GMT Hello Everyone, This is my first post to Ecoustics, but I have been reading the threads here for a few months and just wanted to start by saying Thanks for all the great tips and insights that are provided to the less experienced (me). I have a quick question about position for monitor speakers such as the beta 20's. Is it personal preference which height the speaker is placed, or is there a general strategic position, relative to the ear placement. Question - My ears are approx 45" off the ground, if I purchased a pair of the Beta 20's, should I get a 24" or 30" stand? Thanks in advance for any tips. -Brian
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8780 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 12:11 GMT Generally having the tweeter even with the ear is said to be ideal but the Beta's are a pretty big standmount. I'm using 24 inch stands and that works very well. I wouldn't go higher than 26 inches for stands with the Beta however you may prefer them higher.
Chris H Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly Nova Scotia Canada Post Number: 484 Registered: Jul-07	Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 12:16 GMT ...cymbals remain a bit vague but are coming around I think with every new piece of gear I've ever purchased, the top-end is the last thing to come around. Especially noticeable with things like cymbals, which are a challenge to do truly correctly on the best of gear. I'm burning in a new set of tubes and even on them it's the treble that's out of sorts for the first few hours. Those speakers should continue to get better for some time yet.
T2T Bronze Member Username: T2t Post Number: 23 Registered: Sep-05	Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 13:51 GMT It's been a bit of time since I've owned the Beta 20s. I don't remember them wow-ing me too much. However, they were not horrible speakers. I did see a picture of the crossover for the Beta 20s a few months back - it was very minimal. I suspect this speaker would benefit greatly from better capacitors, inductors and resistors. Then, they just might be a killer of other speakers in the $1,000 league. After all, Infinity did "over" build when they built the cabinets for the 20s - and the drivers are not too bad, either. A lil' crossover work might create true bliss.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2334 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 13:56 GMT I'd like to see that pic of the crossover if you could dig it up?
John Boy Walton Bronze Member Username: Peterhead Post Number: 43 Registered: Apr-08	Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 14:52 GMT "In deference to my friend Art, I will refrain from flushing this thread right down the crapper." Molloy How uncharacteristically magnanimous.
Brian Tripp New member Username: B_tripp Madison, WI USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 16:05 GMT Great, 24 it is. Thanks Art
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2335 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 20:34 GMT John Boy, don't presume to know me. It's easy to be cocky hidden behind the veil of anonymity, isn't it?
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8783 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 02:10 GMT It appears that we have a tentative date for the B&W 685 vs Beta 20 battle...this coming Saturday. Meanwhile my Diamond 9.1's were sitting on the front porch when I got home...sooo tempting to play, but nope still breaking in the 20's.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2337 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 02:14 GMT That will be a good fight, I wish it was on pay-per-view. Anyone know how to stream video?
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8785 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 03:25 GMT Yeah but then you'd only get to hear it in some piss poor compressed format. Yeah it's just for fun...I suspect the poor little Beta's will get their boot ies paddled. I have contacted someone at Harman and asked to buy M12 crossovers...well see how that goes.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8787 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 13:16 GMT Either I'm getting more used to them or the Beta's are growin' on me. Nick, what's the progress in your situation?
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2339 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 13:26 GMT "Yeah but then you'd only get to hear it in some piss poor compressed format." Yeah, but I'd be able to see it when your jaw hits the floor when the lowly Betas dismantle the mighty B&W. Maybe. Who knows? I really like the 685, even better than the CM1 from what I recall.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8788 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 14:07 GMT The 685 is a very good speaker. Perhaps Dan will post his impressions as well...he's a pretty busy fella, but we'll see.
Marty King New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 1 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 23:16 GMT Wow, this is a great forum! First time reader/poster. I've been a regular on Avsforum for a while now. This is one the most informative speaker debates I've read anywhere. I've been looking for serious reviews on the 20's and it looks like I found it. I'm considering the 20's along with Asecend 170's for a computer setup. Will use digital out to an older Kenwood AVR to drive the speakers. They will be used as nearfield monitors. I am by no means a music audiophile nor do I have the money to be one. Based on the feedback here it sounds like I lost out to some of you guys Friday night while bidding on the Beta's. It is ironic that I now find this forum and my bidding advesaries. I guess it is fair to say based on the comments that my junk avr will not get the best out of the 20's. I was also considering buying an HK AVR from Ebay but it sounds like HK receivers are junk too. What would be a good inexpensive receiver for these speakers (under $200 US)?. Also, will these speakers sound okay sitting on a desk? They will most likely be three feet apart. I currently use a Klipsch Pro Media 2.1 setup with uncompressed music files. Interested in hearing about the Diamond 9.1's also since I am considering them along with Polk RTi A1 and Kef IQ3's
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8790 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 23:24 GMT Welcome Marty...good to have you. BTW I almost bought a pair of IQ1's but chose the Wharfies and JBL's instead. The JBL's more out of morbid curiosity..we'll see as they have gotten some decent press...I think there is even a JBL user thread at AVS. Sounds like I might have gotten ya on Friday night for a set of Beta's LOL! Plenty more where they came from huh Marty. Again great to have ya aboard.
Mordecai New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 2 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 00:11 GMT I meant to use the Mordecai as my screen name so I switched from Marty King. Thanks for the welcome Art. Yeah, it looks like HK has plenty. I am watching a few pairs tonight. Any thoughts on an inexpensive avr to use with these speakers? I'm going to use the Kenwood for now. I've always heard that you should spend more on speakers. Have you heardthe Ascend 170's? They sell for $368 shipped (bstock are $326 shipped)and have the same size drivers as the 20's. They have gotten excellent reviews as well. I'm one who contemplates the cost to performance ratio so the Beta's are intriguing from that sense. I'm just not sure with my setup if I will be able to tell much difference between the two or any speaker in the $200-$400 range. I have not heard either. I did read all the posts by the engineer that designed them.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8792 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 02:38 GMT We had a fella here for quite awhile who was quite fanatical about his Ascends. I understand that they are pretty good..although even he said that they lacked bass. I bought 2 pair of the Beta's and the center channel for $300 shipped...soooo I dunno.
Mordecai New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 3 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 03:46 GMT I just won two Beta's with the last auction just closing. I got the pair for $78.00 plus shipping. So, I will give them a try for a while. I may pick up a pair of used Ascends if the opportunity presents itself then sell one or the other after trying them out. Since I could not find them locally to listen your feedback and others helped decide to take a chance so thanks.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8794 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 12:00 GMT They ship fast too...
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11494 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 00:23 GMT M Richler? The betas will provide more bass in a smaller triangle than the Ascends, no doubt. As the the presence of each...well..I never tried nearfield with either, so let us know. I would still take a small H/K in the receiver dept, solong as its not full of bells and whistles, and has a musical focus. I am too far removed from receivers to off er achoice. Try receivers as well? Welcome as well.
Mordecai New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 4 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 00:43 GMT I can get the HK AVR146 on Ebay for about $150 shipped. I can get a Marantz SR3001 or 4002 for around $200-$250. I also looked at a Rotel RSX-965 for $250 used. I'm so new to 2 channel receivers I have no Ideal what is or isn't good. I really don't want to spend more than $200. My understanding is the speakers and DAC are more important. I want to use the digital out on my PC so I want a receiver with digital capability but again I really don't know how much difference in sound quality there is between digital and analog. This group seems very wise with 2 channel music. I guess I should ask which receiver would best compliment these speakers and is digital superior to analog?
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11500 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 00:49 GMT Mord, it is all analog when it gets to the speakers. Music files are fine, and an onboard soundcard can be very good, but only if the source files are clean and large (IMO) Cut and save in lossless or WMA files of the highest quality, and you source is taken care of.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8797 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 02:36 GMT That particular Rotel receiver had a lot of reliability issues. I owned and liked it...when it was working.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2341 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 16:50 GMT The best deal going on a sub-$200 receiver is a factory refurb. Marantz SR4021 for $199 + s/h. ~~http://digitalsetc.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&p roduct_id=14926~~
Mordecai New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 5 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 18:22 GMT Thanks Chris for the receiver recommendations. I like the HK because it has digital inputs and I've heard good things about it too. So, you think a 2 channel receiver is superior to an AVR?
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2342 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 20:02 GMT For music it should be, cleaner single path & all that, but my Marantz SR5400 6.1 receiver sounds beautiful in Stereo Direct, so it depends. I generally like to buy the right tool for the right job. I don't think you'll be disappointed in the least by the HK3490, it's an exceptional value. I have an HK3485 mated to pair of Infinity Primus P362 and a SW10 sub, along with a HK DVD37 and some budget cables; this system cost me roughly $500 and is remarkably satisfying. I was pounced on pretty good a while back for suggesting the P362 sounded "just like" a pair of Monitor Audio RS6, and while I'm sure the RS6 would prevail in any side by side comparison, it's still in my head that the two have a similar sound. It was suggested that this might be due to the fact that both use similar driver material which is used throughout each design, which very well might be what I was honing in on. Happy hunting.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8800 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 22:53 GMT Well Dan has pneumonia and will not be able to do the shootout this weekend so the B&W 685 vs Beta 20 battle will have to wait. Whaddaya think fella's was he chicken....nooo he's a great guy we'll reschedule.
Mordecai New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 6 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 23:33 GMT Art, What is your opinion bi-wiring and or bi-amping the Beta's? Also, is there really a difference in speaker wire? I use heavy gauge speaker wire from Monster.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2343 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 00:06 GMT No bi-wiring option with the Betas.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11507 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 01:12 GMT Mord, wires will drive you crasy. If you can get your room close to being right for you, the wires come later. Ignore them, and listen to your music in your room.Now read about the room.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8801 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 02:49 GMT "is there really a difference in speaker wire?" Yes. I live in my rooms as many of us do so there is very little room for "room treatments". It is indeed the way to have the greatest impact on sound quality however it's impractical for many of us. Every piece of the puzzle has some impact on the final outcome.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8804 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 03:57 GMT Listening to the Diamond 9.1's tonight....wow what a special little speaker that is! Everything in the right proportion and a sweet little tweeter that does everything right. 3 dimensional like you wouldn't believe..very impressive...oh and yes I've listened to a cd. Still like the Beta 20...but the Wharfies have a far more refined sound, which isn't to say better because we all have different preferences. In that sense they eat the Epos alive...oh but that seductive midrange of the Epos.
Nick K Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10 Post Number: 2338 Registered: Jun-07	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 04:53 GMT Art- If you dont mind me asking, how much did you get the Diamonds for and where from?
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8806 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 06:27 GMT I paid $228 from a very nice fella on Ebay. We've exchanged emails since I bought them. He bought these and a pair of Paradigm Mini Monitors v5's and liked the Mini's so much he never opened the box on these....ooops, that was a mistake. These are far better than the Mini's. The Reina Stereophile review is right on target. Some folks call the 9.1's a bit boring...nooo you just didn't bother to set them up right and listen to them. They don't get loud so they aren't a large room speaker, but in a small room they are magical. I don't think it's stretching it to call them a classic. The balance is fabulous...
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8808 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 06:38 GMT The balance wow...what can I say. Soundstage not laid back nor forward...right there in the middle across the whole room which gives great imaging, which these have in spades, a far more realistic and/or believable feel. Very nice speaker for the dough. Meanwhile the Beta's have moved out to the main room for a run under less than ideal circumstances with the Rega system...more on that later.
Mordecai New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 7 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 07:14 GMT Great! I bought the Beta's based on yours and others reviews and now you rave about the Diamonds I actually consider them as well. Here is a link where you can get them for about the same price you paid. http://www.tsto.com/cgi-bin/TSTO.storefront/4982a68b0094f31e2740ac1003410676/Pro duct/View/2614&2D1 I didn't buy these because they are $100 more and because the reviews and feedback said they don't have much low end. They do have great mid range and highs I'm told. What do you think about their low end with that 5 inch woofer? I purchased the HK AVR 146 tonight on Ebay for $150 shipped. I really considered the the HK 3490 but just didn't want to spend the additional $125. Next purchase will be a sub. Of course I will wait till the speakers and avr show up and see how much bass they have. I don't need a lot but I am a little spoiled with the Klipsch sub. Besides, many film scores benfit from a sub. Any recommendations on a tight but inexpensive sub?
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2344 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 12:34 GMT The 9.1 & 9.2 should definitely be on every one's short list. Wharfedale makes a beautiful anniversary edition 9.1 in real walnut that's real nice looking, but are a bit pricey. Wharfedale seriously up'd their game when is came to improving the build-quality from the cheesy-looking 8-series to the 9-series. I bought a pair of Mission M70 from TSTO, and they were great to deal with.
Nick K Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10 Post Number: 2339 Registered: Jun-07	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 13:22 GMT Thanks Art and Chris I will take a look. FWIW Art this months The Absolute Sound magazine said the new Paradigm Mini Monitors are the best sounding speaker they have heard yet under 500 dollars. Just another persons opinion however. Wierd. So many speakers to be had for so cheap.lol.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8809 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 13:24 GMT Now Mordecai remember I stated that I would have further impressions when the Beta's were fully broken in. They are out in the main room for just that purpose. And for your investment...believe me you came out on top. The Beta is a very good speaker...the Diamond is a special one. I still put the Beta ahead of the Atom Monitor v6, and I had time to listen tp both last night.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2345 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 15:14 GMT "So many speakers to be had for so cheap." I'm not sure what the production cost are for a speaker like the Beta 20, but Harman seems content to sell them for less than $50 a pop (and I contend that these are new speakers, not refurbs), so one may presume it's somewhere south of that. But outside of the choice of exotic wood veneers and other premium finishes, I wonder what the production cost of a comparable-sized premium speaker, like the Revel Performa M22, the Paradigm Reference Sig.2, or the Monitor Audio GS10 are? Do the enhancements made from entry-level lines to premium ones double or quadruple the production cost? I don't know?
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8810 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 15:14 GMT Well fella's the Beta's are sitting in the living room with the Rega outfit singing away. In spite of way less than ideal placement (on 12 inch Wood Technology stands) between the Rega speakers they sound very nice. I've found what I believe is ideal placement for the Rega's. Just a quarter inch difference changes it all so I ain't moving them and all of my 24 and 26 inch stands (all 3 sets) are in use, so I pulled these 12 inchers out of the garage. The Beta's don't appear to be nearly as picky about placement as many other speakers. Especially relative to the soundtstage and imaging. The bass needs a little more careful consideration...but still pretty easy to place...like I said they are actually quite pleasant sounding as presently placed.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2346 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 15:22 GMT Also interesting, Harman has opted not to sell refurbished premium gear, like Revel, Lexicon, and Mark Levinson, through it's outlet & eBay stores.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8812 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 15:31 GMT Interesting perhaps but predictable.
Nuck Platinum Member Username: Nuck Post Number: 11514 Registered: Dec-04	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 19:10 GMT Art, how much tilt have you applied to the stands from 12" ? That seems a low attack to me, but I have a small room too... Thanks for the news!
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8816 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 19:40 GMT ...as I stated it is not ideal placement.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8818 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 20:01 GMT The second set just arrived... Will sit in boxes for the foreseeable future.
Mordecai New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 8 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 20:39 GMT I just want to say that I really enjoy this site and this string in particular. I've enjoyed getting to know all of you. I really appreciate that you respond to my posts unlike the Avsforum. This seems like a more mature group. Art, are you a dealer or do just enjoy testing different speakers? Question about speaker sound quality, do book shelf speakers sound better on stands or is this personal preference? I ask this because I intend to place by Beta's on my computer table which is solid pine. Of course once I get them I may find them to large to fit so I'm already considering stands. How are you attaching the speakers to the stands? I have grandchildren that come into my office so I want to prevent damage due to curious little ones.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2347 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 20:50 GMT Sonically, the best option is to spike the 20s to your desk, but something like Blu-Tack might be a more practical option considering the grandchildren. http://www.amazon.com/Bostik-Blu-Tack-Re-usable-Adhesive/dp/B0006DPMSG
Mordecai New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 9 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 20:59 GMT Thanks Christopher - Do they make spikes for hard surface applications? My Acculines A2's are also sitting on hard wood tables but I have little round hard ball/feet for each of them. I've seen spikes before but only for carpet.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8821 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 21:12 GMT I'm a social worker not an audio dealer... Stands are definitely the best for what should not be called bookshelf speakers but instead standmounts. They really do sound better on stands...here is the rub..what type of stand depends on the speaker. Generally any stand will do over a bookshelf or a desk. However as I posted above...these are often the spaces we live in and compromises must be made to accomodate any of a number of variables.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2348 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 21:14 GMT They do http://www.supercellaudio.com/Floor-Spikes.htm . These isolation cones serve the same purpose, the difference being that carpet spikes are usually longer to penetrate the carpet. Three under each speaker should do the trick.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8826 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 03:22 GMT Finally got the Beta's on some 24 inch stands and spread 'em out in the main room with Rega system and they performed very nicely. Particular strengths are imaging and detail in that part of the frequency range where horns live. Weakness is a bit of a boxy sound, these have still not loosened up completely.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8829 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 17:42 GMT It appears there is a problem with one of the Wharfedale's. Distortion anytime faster paced happens and usually in volume range between the dynamic peak and lowest level. Very difficult to explain. Quite odd but very bad. Took some work to identify it. So it appears I've bought a lemon...bummer.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2349 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 21:44 GMT Well that sucks.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8830 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 22:08 GMT Yep...I emailed the seller and he was going to get back to me in an hour or so...it's been 3 hrs or so now. The Wharfies are great speakers...I talked to a dealer and he said they rarely have issues. Not quite what to do next but hang on and wait. More on the Beta 20's later.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8832 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 01:07 GMT Spoke to the seller (Wharfies) and we are working it out appears that he's one of the good guys...excellent.
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1735 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 03:09 GMT Art, you have more issues with your stuff than anyone I know. I am beginning to think you need to change your strategy and find something you like and stop, for a long time. Really. You even have Mordecai questioning his purchase because you went from the 20's to the 9.1's so quick. Art, he thought you were a dealer, doesn't that concern you? Oops, never mind, not that kind of dealer. LOL I do not think you give yourself enough time to really get an intimate knowledge of your gear. Expect of course your Van den Huls...
Mordecai New member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 10 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 04:36 GMT I don't need help from Art to help me question my purchase I always have buyers remorse. I also have a hard time keeping my purchase in perspective with my wallet so I almost always tend to not buy what I really want if price is a consideration. I will admit though that I thought about buying the Wharfdales too and selling the one I liked least. I was also tempted to buy the Infinity Primus 362's on sale at Fry's. I really don't need towers for a 10x12 office!
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8833 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 05:20 GMT I don't know Mike you appear to tweak something in your setup pretty frequently...like many of us. Keep in mind that the core of the main system is still hooked up and has only changed for a very short period once in the last 2 years...not sure how many of us here can say that. What I'm doing now is giving a listen to a number of budget speakers that have interested me or that have built up some sort of lore over the last several years. I'd also love to try the Usher S-520 and a number of others at home I wanted to hear and ofcourse check the health and well being of the Wharfedales while there was still time for recourse. Not a bad thing I think. Listening over the course of time and giving impressions of several budget speakers doesn't seem a bad thing. I still have the Beta's connected to a system and am evaluating them in various setups and placements. Now as far as that intimate knowledge of my gear...I'm not trying to get intimate knowledge of the speakers. Just giving them a listen over a period of a few weeks and then keeping them or moving them on. The primary system I'm using to evaluate them is an amp I've had for a several months and a CD player that I've had in service for the better part of a decade. Don't really want to get anymore intimate with my gear than that..lol.
Christopher Molloy Gold Member Username: Exerciseguy Brooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2350 Registered: Oct-04	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 15:51 GMT Mordecai, by time you pair up a decent pair of bookshelf speakers to a decent set of stands, you're likely to exceed the price of those P362. I think big speakers in small rooms lend themselves to low-volume/late-night listening. On a side note, I have an opportunity to pick-up a pair of used Beta 50 for a decent price, but I'm going to pass because I really can't justify it at this time.
Mordecai Bronze Member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 11 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 17:24 GMT Christoper - You are probably right. The good thing is Fry's seems to run this sale 2-3 times a year. This will give me some time with the 20's. Hopefully I won't have to use stands but we will see. By the way, what exactly qualifies one as an audiophile? Is it love of quality sound reproduction or is it quality of equipment meaning expensive equipment?
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8838 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 17:48 GMT "By the way, what exactly qualifies one as an audiophile?" You can self declare...lol!
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1742 Registered: May-06	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 19:53 GMT "Audiophile" per wikipedia; An audiophile, from Latin audio[1] "I hear" and Greek philos[2] "loving," is an audio reproduction enthusiast, who typically listens to music on high-end audio electronics. Audiophiles try to listen to music at a quality level that is as close to the original performance as possible. They use high-fidelity components to try to attain these goals. Many are music lovers who are passionate about high-quality music reproduction. DIY audio enthusiasts build their own equipment, especially loudspeakers. Audiophile values may be applied at all stages of music reproduction: the initial audio recording, the production process, and the playback, which is usually in a home setting. High-end audio refers to expensive, high-quality, or esoteric products and practices used in the reproduction of music. Electronic gear used by audiophiles is typically sold at specialist shops. Prices range from not much more than mass market electronics to astronomical heights: high-end audio systems can easily cost more than a new automobile and in extreme cases can be hundreds of thousands of dollars. Most of this gear is produced by companies that specialize in high-end gear, although some also produce equipment used by audio professionals such as by recording studios. Audiophile magazines include Hi-Fi News, Hi-Fi Choice, Hi-Fi World, and What Hi-Fi? Sound and Vision in the United Kingdom as well as Stereophile and The Absolute Sound in the United States. Hobbyist audio societies also exist: Stereophile's website has a list of such groups in the United States.[3] Audiophiles can purchase special recordings made with extra attention to sound quality; some companies specialize in re-issuing recordings for this purpose. Many audiophiles feel that vinyl records sound better than compact discs (CDs), and audiophile records are often remastered and pressed on extra-heavy virgin vinyl -- 180g or 200g. Audiophiles also collect recordings in the high-resolution formats such as Super Audio CD or DVD-Audio.
Mordecai Bronze Member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 12 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 20:07 GMT Thanks Michael - Well I guess that makes me a partial (cheap) audiophile (self-declared)because I don't own and probably won't buy high end equipment.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8840 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 20:13 GMT Haven't heard from Nick for awhile. Did you order the Beta 20's or just give up the "something for nothing" quest. BTW I never did hear back from Revel about the Concerta M12 crossover. "Bout time for a follow up.
Nick K Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10 Post Number: 2343 Registered: Jun-07	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 20:49 GMT Sorry Art. I can have the Beta's for around 220 give or take. Still a great deal. (They have to be special ordered) My dealer normally does not stock maybe more than a pair or two of Infinity speakers. The reason why I havn't jumped on them yet is because I am in negotiations on buying a HD Projector and 106 inch Screen. So I figured the 220 could go towards that. But, if all else fails, the Beta's will probably still be mine. Cheers guys.
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8841 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 20:55 GMT BIG SCREEN!!!
Nick K Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10 Post Number: 2345 Registered: Jun-07	Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 00:31 GMT Yeah, I got some awesome plans for that theater of mine. I want it all done by the end of 2009.
Mordecai Bronze Member Username: Mordecai Texas Post Number: 13 Registered: Jan-09	Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2009 - 04:42 GMT Have any of you compared the 20's to Energy RC-10's? It looks like Klipsch is starting to sell refurbed versions. The reviews on the RC-10's are impressive. Also curious about how Diamond 8.1 & 8.2's sound? They are relatively cheap at STO right now. I should have my 20's tomorrow but my receiver won't arrive until the end of the week. I will start using them with an older Kenwood receiver to start breaking them in.

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