DTS Master Audio
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1385 Registered: Apr-05 | Does anyone know if DTS Master Audio can be played on any receiver that does not have HDMI? I thought I read somewhere that a 5.1 input will enable DTS Master Audio, but can't find verification. It would really suck to get a blue ray DVD player and not be able to play it if your receiver doesn't have HDMI |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3574 Registered: Sep-04 | Stof, The only way to digitally transmit a DTS-HD Master Audio (or Dolby TrueHD) stream from a BD player to an AV receiver is via HDMI or the much less used DisplayPort. This is because HDMI (and DisplayPort) is the only connection which supports HDCP, the encryption mechanism mandated for use with high resolution audio transmission. However, this is not the whole story... You have two ways around the problem - digital and analogue. Digital - You can still buy bluray discs and get your BD player to output standard DTS (or Dolby Digital) using the more commonly used connections of S/PDIF in coax or optical toslink, and/or AES/EBU if available. Almost all BD players have these connections which will work with pretty much any digital AV receiver built in the last 3 years or so. This will give you the same quality of sound that you have enjoyed from DVD, since this is mandated as part of the BD spec. The really odd thing is that if you choose the DTS-HD Master Audio (or Dolby TrueHD) track when playing a bluray disc, this seems to sound better than if you choose the DVD equivalent on the disc! I have no idea why this is the case, but it does seem to happen. Analogue - if your BD player and AV receiver are so equipped you can use the multi-channel analogue outputs of your BD player into the multi-channel analogue inputs of the AV receiver. You need to setup the BD player separately to the AV receiver because now you are relying on the player to do the decoding and processing magic that you have hitherto relied on the AV receiver for. In this case, the decoding in the player is the full high res audio (provided you've chosen that track on the disc), and in theory you should get better quality sound. However, in practice, this may or may not be the case since it will then depend on the quality of the decoding chipset in the player, your multi-channel interconnects, and the multi-channel input of the AV receiver. I hope this isn't too confusing an answer! Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1386 Registered: Apr-05 | No I understand it, but if for the sake of copyrights they have limited the true full lossless transmission of DTS-HD MA to HDMI, then how can we get the same sound quality out of the optical or coax digital connection? Is that simply the same old story of not being able to tell the difference or have you seen test that indicate the same? I'm intrigued because I'm looking into the BD players and don't have HDMI on my now older Marantz receiver (SR8400) and just want to know if there really is much difference with Master Audio. Or does this give me the excuse to get a new receiver  |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3575 Registered: Sep-04 | You cannot get the same sound quality through S/PDIF (coax or optical). HDMI is a digital connection of course so it's the same basic theory as coax, but with many channels. In theory, since the high resolution audio BD stream is an uncompressed one, it should be appreciably better than the compressed (lossy) DTS and Dolby Digital streams. However, with very few exceptions, HDMI connection suffers from very high jitter distortion (between 10 times and 100 times as much as S/PDIF) which can lead to lower quality. The exceptions are those solutuions which implement a 'Link' system which uses the processor as a master clock to buffer the transport. I only know of Denon Link4 doing this so far. Others will follow, but these solutions are proprietary and require matching transport/processor solutions. In practice, the quality depends just as much on how well the discs themselves are mastered. Early discs were about the same or not much better than their DVD equivalent. The audio streams were, if anything, just slightly better and often just the same, even though they were packed as LPCM or high res. More modern discs (!) such as The Dark Knight are better and do offer improvements over DVD, although one would struggle to say it's an 'Oh my God' moment! After all, a £400 receiver remains a £400 receiver whether or not it has DTS-HD capability. Go for a really good ordinary receiver for the same money and the results could be better just because of the better quality of the receiver. The theory is sound. The implementations are very dependent on the makes and models you're looking at. In my view, it's worth buying a BD machine on the basis that it means you can start buying BDs rather than DVDs and eventually you can enjoy the full quality of these discs when you upgrade to a full-HD (1080p) screen with a BD-capable receiver. Up until recently I had an Arcasm AV9/P7 as part of my system. It's a fantastic combination and I sold it mainly because I needed the space (I have a large stereo system in the same space). I bought a PS3 to give me bluray and the HD facilities it provides. I've only got a CRT telly and I must admit that in this unusual application the DVDs looked better than the BDs and the sound was very similar. The sound was, of course, spectacular given the quality of the components (PS3 notwithstanding). I now have just a stereo system. The PS3 is providing just 2-channel and downmixing in the box. The quality of the sound is equally as good if not better. Of course I only have 2 channels, but it's remarkable how easily I get fooled by the arrangement. The PS3 itself has certain limitations as a bluray player, but it is a very good solution for what it is. In tests, we've found that only in recent months have dedicated BD players started to beat its performance. They are getting better as each month goes by but the bespoke players are also getting more expensive. I recently played with the Pioneer LX91 (£1800 or so) and it was better than the PS3. Would I replace my PS3? No, because it does all the other things I need and I'm not worried about the BD limitations. Of course if you need an excuse, my God man, you mean to say you haven't got a proper receiver yet??? |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1388 Registered: Apr-05 | LOL I guess an SR8400 could be categorized an an inappropriate receiver. At the time I bought it thinking that I won't need HDMI for at least a few more years. Well guess what time flies and this May it will be 5 years since I bought it. Of course your point is well taken that the overall sound system including your receiver and speakers should dictate more in terms of SQ than HD-MA, but since I'm really more of a techie than an audiophile, the concept of a lossless transmission from Blueray DVD's is intriguing to me if for no other reason than to see if I actually hear any difference. In a sense I'm on the same boat with you in that I haven't put together the system I really want. I have a great 46" Mitsubishi with 1080p and am happy with the receiver and speakers overall. I've been waiting for Oppo to finally release their Blue ray player to get it but now this HD-MA is throwing me off. I guess it's always a moving target. Does PS3 even do HD-MA? |
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Silver Member Username: MccambleyBREEZY POINT, NY USA Post Number: 601 Registered: Jun-05 | Panasonic's DMP-BD55K will decode both DD True HD and DTS MA internally and pass the sound through 5.1-7.1 analog connections to your older receiver. The signal is going to be transferred to analog either in the player or the receiver before it is played no matter what system you have. For just paying back the movie without the Directors commentary or blu-ray live content the only real difference between HDMI and analog is 1 wire vs 6-8 wires. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1389 Registered: Apr-05 | Interesting, didn't know how the directors commentary or BD live works, since I still don't have the blue ray. Speaking of Oppo though I did receive this through e-mail: OPPO BDP-83 Blu-Ray Disc Player EAP Dear , We would like to thank you for the tremendous feedback that we have received from the community in response to our first BDP-83 Blu-ray player notification update. There were many great comments, suggestions and concerns which we will try to address in the release of the BDP-83. In particular, we would like to address the Early Adoption Program. We have decided to take a democratic, by-the-people approach to the implementation of the Early Adoption Program. For the initial batch we will randomly choose 50 customers to participate in the Early Adoption Program. These 50 customers will have the opportunity to purchase the BDP-83 for $499 before the official release. After using the player for about a week, they will be required to vote on whether the program should be expanded or suspended based on end-user experiences. If a supermajority (at least 70%) votes in favor of expanding the program, we will expand the Early Adoption Program by another 100 randomly chosen customers. The player will be shipped with a pre-production firmware version. Firmware updates will be available from time to time. The initial 50 Early Adoption Customers will be chosen no later than February 25th using the random number generator at random.org. After being contacted by us, the customer must place the order no later than 3pm February 27th Pacific Time; otherwise the opportunity to participate will be passed on to another customer. A simple "Yes" or "No" vote on whether to expand the program needs to be cast no later than March 15th. Terms and conditions for the Early Adoption Program, as well as the current program status, can be found at our web site: http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/EAP.aspx We would also like to take this time to update you on the status of BDP-83 developments. The last two months have been very fruitful, as the player now supports BD-Live (Profile 2.0) and can internally decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio formats. DVD-Audio has yet to be implemented through firmware, but we are working diligently on this feature. A preliminary features and specifications list will be available on our web site on Tuesday March 3rd. Opt-Out: If you are still interested in receiving communications about the BDP-83 and participating in the Early Adoption Program, no further action is necessary. Otherwise, please click on the SafeUnsubscribe link below to decline participation and to opt out of any further e-mail communications regarding the BDP-83. Best Regards, Customer Service |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11655 Registered: Dec-04 | I am really interestd in hearing how that Oppo is panning out. If it can truly do it all, then they will sell a ton of them! |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3577 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmmm, no mention of Profile 3.0, no mention of (and no surprise really) SACD. DVD-A is dead in the water so who cares? $499 seems a bit steep for an Oppo - what'll be the retail price? Not sure I'd want to go with a Beta product - I've seen so many problems with firmware in the past. Still, if you like the company and want to be at their bleeding edge, then you'll be happy, but I don't see any buy-back clauses (i.e. if you're not happy with it or the EAP is a disaster we'll buy it back from you). I think it's a bit rich of them to ask you to pay to beta their product actually. I'm not entirely sure whether the PS3 does the DTS-HD Master Audio (or Dolby TrueHD) stream. Certainly, until recently it did not allow you to stream those packed codecs to the receiver. It will send the unpacked LPCM that you get from the TrueHD and DTS-HD packs on the disc. In theory there should be no degradation in sound quality. In practice I think the packed version might be slightly better, which is weird since it's exactly the same bits which get translated to analogue. The Director's commentary and BD live should still be managed through the same interfaces. They do not require encryption to be transmitted as far as I know. As for pure sound quality, I recently played a music CD from the PS3's optical output through my AV9 processor which decoded it thence through my Naim amp. It sounded ... ok I guess. The AV9 buyer then wondered about my CD player so I put the same track on there. The difference was huge. Then again, my CD player is 10 times more expensive than my PS3. Heck, its interconnect is nearly twice the price of the PS3! |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1390 Registered: Apr-05 | From what I've been reading they are past the beta stage and are doing user acceptance. I did not get picked to get one, nor would I have done so. I just don't have the time to fiddle with it and answer their questions and, according to their legalese online, questions from other consumers. I will be interested in buying the product and the retail price looks to be the same $499. In terms of SACD and DVD-A, I think that's been part of their struggle as to what to put into this thing and what to leave out. The technology is changing so fast and so much of is just going out the door as quickly. Imagine if they had actually rolled out a HD-DVD. The profile is programmable so presumably they will be able to update it, should it not require additional hardware. In terms of the price, it is supposed to be region free and essentially compare with the universal players from Denon that costs $2k, with really great upconversion of regular DVD's. So they are still in the reasonable range. Honestly I will be happy if it just has a decent transport and laser unit. If I only had a dollar for every Denon and Sony DVD players that I have thrown away because of those breaking down. I'm really happy for you that you get to experiment with these and just as happy that you are able to share your experience with us so we don't spend the money...Thanks very much |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 2048 Registered: Nov-05 | Frank, I believe PS3 does now decode DTS MA and Dolby True HD. And there is an upgrade for the models that did not. I have found that DTS MA is sometimes not even as good as the old DTS. Sometimes it is way better. I guess it's the recording or transferring standards. Uncompressed 5.1 is pretty good as is mostly (but not always (True HD). |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 644 Registered: Jun-08 | Yes the PS3 does now decode internally DTS MA as well as Dolby True HD as well as doing BD Live |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3583 Registered: Sep-04 | I know the PS3 can decode the streams internally, and has been able to do so for quite some time (though why it took them so long to get DTS-HD/MA right is beyond me). What I don't know is if it can send the TrueHD or DTS-HD stream across HDMI for unpacking and decoding on the AV receiver. Hitherto, it has not been able to do this. It has only been able to unpack the TrueHD/DTS-HD stream and send the ensuing LPCM stream down the HDMI pipe. In other words, my view on the PS3 at the moment is that if you send a digital signal down HDMI to the AV receiver, the best you will get is LPCM show up on the receiver. You will never get a TrueHD or DTS-HD/MA light/message on the receiver. The most interesting thing about the Oppo is that it's region-free! If there's one thing that REALLY annoys me about the PS3, it's that it's not region-free, even for DVDs! |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 645 Registered: Jun-08 | Regions don't impact me as I'm only using media that has my local region code. From my experience with my unit and from all I've read, the PS3 does not and looks like will never be able to send the bitstream to an AVR for the AVR to decode. It's too bad because my Onkyo 805 can decode it all and I'd love to see that pop up on the AVR screen. I'm now stuck to seeing Mulitchannel input. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1391 Registered: Apr-05 | Regions don't impact me that much either, but it just bugs the hell out of me that I can go almost anywhere in the world and take a DVD with me and regardless of the region or the coloring scheme (NTSC, PAL, Secam), I am able to put in the DVD and it works. Everywhere else the shop vendor gives the code to whoever buys the DVD to unlock their DVD players and they are also multi-format. However if I get a visitor from abroad or if I ever want to buy a DVD from somewhere else, I am always stuck with these restrictions. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 649 Registered: Jun-08 | Yeah Stof but that's a little like saying that my DVD player won't run on 220v from the wall. Regions are not a big thing and may never be an issue for many. It's not like it doesn't play CDR or DVDR but it's your call and I agree that all else held equal, take the one with more features. However, nothing in life is ever held equal. All the best. |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1392 Registered: Apr-05 | Correction to my earlier post: The Oppo BDP-83 is not going to be region free. The fangs of the studios have a long reach. Though to answer your point George, it does have a 110-240v power supply |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3589 Registered: Sep-04 | The thing about regions is that they were proved not to work thanks to the region freeing of all DVD players. So why put the same stupid broken restriction on bluray?? Talk about burying their heads in the sand... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11746 Registered: Dec-04 | Do you think the Chinese pirate gangs are not able to copy in all regions? On sale now at the corner store, either inside or just outside. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3591 Registered: Sep-04 | Nuck, that just gives my argument that much more credence. The region system was broken way before bluray came around and given the money involved it was inevitable that a similar (if stronger) scheme would be broken. So why f*ck things up for everyone? (Very pissed about this as you can probably tell...) |
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Gold Member Username: ChitownPost Number: 1393 Registered: Apr-05 | Also as I mentioned the only places that it is enforced is in US and western Europe. Everywhere else (the reason they came up with this bright idea) your DVD player salesperson will give you the unlock code. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3593 Registered: Sep-04 | Except there's no unlock code for a PS3 and most bluray players (so far)! |
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