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woody | Hi! i have mission m72 bookshelf speakers which reportedly go down to 55 hz.i need some base reinforcement primarily for audio . also the depth has to be present even at medium volumes.my budget is limited. should i go in for a 8" sub.i was told that an 8" would not really add much to my existing system and that 10" is the minimum i should look for.i am not into home theatre.my room is very small.additionally, the following any good: wharfedale pc 10 sony wm40 yamaha yst-205 also, when the spec says freq resp of 35hz at -3db what volume levels are we talking about?and finally ,for audio, are two 8" woofers better than a 10" in a sub. whew! thats a lot of questions.please advice. |
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Max | Hello, Ok I can answer a few of those questions for you. First of the freq. response is just what it says, the response of high and low frequencies. With low being the left number and high being the right. Our ears supposedly only hear 20-20hz so thats what you should look for, the closer the low end is to 20hz the lower the bass response. Also, I have always been a fan of single woofers but thats just me. Yes I would agree that for a sub 10inches and up should be good, I would also stay away from 15's though as they tend to be boomy and sloppy{not all of them though}.. I would also recommend to stay away from sony subs!! yes they are great priced but their sound will leave you ill!!! They sound mushy and boomy with no clarity what-so-ever. Mine also blew up!! Other than that the other guys will have to answer the rest..hope I helped.. Max |
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John Allen | "when the spec says freq resp of 35hz at -3db what volume levels are we talking about?" Any volume level. Wherever you started, -3dB halves it. Another -3 dB, making -6 dB compared with the start, halves it again. Play two identical speakers at the same time, both with a -3 dB cut, and it should be the same as having just one with no cut at all. |
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Derek | The cheapest way to get good bass is to build it yourself. Try www.partsexpress.com for raw drivers and books on the subject. If you watch thier sales and build you own box you can build a good 12" active sub for under $120 complete. My advice: Cheat and get one of those car sub boxes or tubes for $35 at Circuit City. See http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&SO=2&DID=7&ObjectGroup_ID=505 and http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3&ObjectGroup_ID=483&sm=1&so=2 Baring DIY, I agree with Max. Sony once sold a 10" sub for $100 that was a good value but it has since been replaced with an run-of-the-mill sub. Give Mission and Energy subs a listen. They have some 8" sub that are very low in distortion with very flat and extended response. These are some of the best active sub in the under $300 range. I assume that's you price cap. Hope that helps |
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woody | thank you guys. i find it amazing that so many people go to the trouble of responding to queries.especially derek. keep it up folks! |
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Anonymous | 2*8" active sub or 1*10" active sub? thanks you |
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Hawk | Woody: What is your budget? I personally would not get any of the subs you listed. Too many people get hung up on the quantity of sound from the sub (10" or 12") and completely miss the quality component, which is far more important. I like the PSB SubZero-i for that very reason ($219 at DMC Electronics). I also agree with Derek's recommendation for the Mission or Energy subs. I have seen the Energy 8.2 sub going for $319 (at The Sound Professionals). Good price for a quality sub. If you really want low bass, get a Hsu Research VTF-2, which they sell over the internet for $499. Has a 10" sub that is as sweet of a sounding sub as you can ever find. There you have both quantity and quality. |
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Max | Hello, Yup that HSU looks pretty nice. I am personally getting the VTF-2. I am so excited.... Max |
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Anonymous | I strongly suggest you audition a Paradigm version 2 PW-2200. The original version and the VTF-2 are very close with the Paradigm being the winner IMHO, but again it is very close. Now the version 2 PW-2200 is on the market with the same amp as the Servo15, 1500watts Peak/400 watts RMS, and a few other upgrades which should widen the gap even further. The VTF-2 has good output down to 30Hz and below but the Paradigm is better from 25Hz down and that was the old PW-2200. If you can get these subs for around the same price the Paradigm is the better deal but if the VTF-2 is cheaper go for it. The fit and finish on the VTF-2 is not as good as the Paradigm if that is of any consideration to you. Like I said go have a listen but in this situation you can't really lose because both are nice though you may perfer one over the other. Go audition the Paradigm before you buy. |
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G-Man | I would still go with the HSU VTF-2. And I would be suprised if the HSU wasn't considerably less expensive. The HSU has the ability to play loud with very little distortion down to its bottom end. Most subwoofer manufacturers don't tell you when their distortion goes up like crazy. Plenty of mediocre subs will say they go down to 30 Hz -3db's, but they fail to tell you that the distortion is 10% and it sounds atrocious. Paradigm makes good subs--particularly their expensive ones. But in the VTF-2 range only a couple can compare or compete. For less money the PSB subsonic 5 is very good and is probably the bestsubwoofer that can be bought under $400. Actually, probably the only very good sub under $400. In audio video I would almost always buy the better speaker or subwoofer and save on DVD players, CD players, receivers, and definitely on wires and interconnects. Poor speakers sound just as bad even if attached to McIntosh or Krell equipment. Whereas most great speakers will sound great attached to most anything, except a severely underpowered receiver. |
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Anonymous | Like I said the HSU VTF-2 is very good but the only reason I can see for someone to say they would go with the VTF-2 over the PW-2200 is because they have not directly compared them. I personally have owned both along with my SVS subs. I recently sold the VTF-2 and PW-2200 and bought the new v.2 PW-2200 so I guess I don't know what I'm talking about. I also bought a new amp and speakers which makes 5 sourround systems in my house. I won't bother to tell you how many HTPC's, projectors and RPTV's I have because I'm sure someone will say I'm lying. Needlees to say I don't just dabble in HT I'm fully gone. I think a lot of you guys should be posting at avsforum.com or hometherterforum.com because there is some poor advice floating around this place especially when you are considering making a purchase. I only followed a search link in here the other day and had no intention of posting until I read some of crap you guys were posting. I'm not hacking everyone but there are a few without a clue. PSB Subsonic 5 is a good sub but the only very good sub under $400??? I guess you have not heard the PolkAudio PSW404 or PSW505. This is why I say you guys looking to make a purchase need to ask around at other forums too, then take the suggestions and go audition. No one knows everything, myself included so it is very important to ask around before making a purchase. I won't bother you guys anymore as I have way too many emails and PM's to respond to as it is without getting cought up in debates here. Maybe I'll have Tom come take a look at some of this stuff for a laugh. Again the VTF-2 is a good sub but you're mistaken if you think it is better than the PW-2200 let alone the version 2. I'm out of here but I hope some of you new guys take my advice and ask around at other forums besides this one. |
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Max | Hello, No disrespect but, no thank you. I will stay here. I got my Hawk, g-man, elite-fan, kar, etc.. These guys are awesome and I like it here. They are very smart and they give only the best advice. Why don't you post more here! The more knowledge the better.. Max |
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G-Man | One can buy the PSB subsonic 5 for $350 at numerous places and have seen it as low as $329. The cheaper of the two Polk's (the 404) lists at $479. I haven't seen it anywhere near the price of the PSB subsonic 5. The cheapest I have seen the Paradigm 2002 is $629. That is almost twice the price you can buy the PSB for---hardly a fair comparison and not what was being discussed. Sound and Vision recently compared about 10 subwoofers--not the Polk or the Paradigm though--and the PSB played with low distortion throughout its range (which is rare in most subwoofers) and played at even SPL's throughout its range, which is even rarer. So if you have numbers to back up your assessment--fine. If not, all you have is your opinion. I was talking about performance at a price point--not at any price. The following is from S&V on the PSB subsonic 5: How Low Does It Go? • Bass limit 25 Hz at 87 dB SPL The PSB produced the kind of full, deep bass you'd expect from a far larger and more expensive sub. How Big the Bang? • Average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz 98.1 dB • Maximum SPL 102 dB at 62 Hz • Dollars per dB $4.58 at list price $479 Its amazingly even output means this sub will sound more powerful than its SPL figures suggest without ever being boomy. The Bottom Line PSB's SubSonic 5i is compact in dimensions, heft, and price. While it could produce only moderate SPLs, it delivered more uniform output over its bandwidth than any other subwoofer in this group. ______________________ Now obviously this subwoofer isn't for a large room and I certainly wouldn't recommend it for an expensive set-up. But it is an excellent performer for a small to medium sized room and is a great buy for someone trying to get excellent bass without having a very expensive system. |
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G-Man | Max- I appreciate the vote of confidence, as I am sure the other do too. That said, in my previous post I was talking about price points and not absolute subwoofer performance. All I can confidently say is knowledge about price compared to performance on subwoofers I have heard and especially on subwoofers that have been carefully measured. One can always spend more on certain subwoofers and get better performance. One can spend more on many subwoofers and get the same or worse performance. I can't speak to the subjectivity of peoples preferences regarding their perceptions. The problem with many speakers and subwoofers is that most manufacturers don't have easy access to the various parameters that are necessary to make the most educated purchase. The best most of us can do is use the "good" information (I mean flatness of frequency response, distortion levels from the lowest through the highest requencies at different SPL's, etc.) In the absence of these graphs and numbers we are mostly left fumbling in the dark. There must be thousands of subwoofers and speaker systems I haven't listened to and haven't seen any reliable numbers on. All I can give is somewhat educated advice on the limited amount that I know. |
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Max | Hello, Oh I was just saying that because anon was saying we should go to other forums. |
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mike smith | Hello, just read some of the messages and all of you seems like you know what you are talking about. I hope you may be able to help me. i have a pioneer vsx-5500S receiver and 2 JBL 630 speakers, with really crappy 2 rear speakers. i 'm looking to purchase a subwoofer but not sure what is the best bang for the buck. I do want a farely good one but not top of the line or anything. i do have a budget but is somewhat flexible. are rear speakers important and do different receivers work well or better with different subs. thanks in advance and looking forward to you advices. |
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Hawk | Mike: I don't know your receiver--is that one of those receivers with 50 wpc for the fronts and 15 wpc for the back surrounds? Also, what is your budget for a sub and what size room do you have? This is important to know to answer your questions. Anyways, look at a PSB SubZeroI sub. Should work for you and you can get it for less than $250. Sound is great too. Have you considered all new speakers? |
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mike smith | hello Hawk, thanks for the reply. I guess my room is about 16 feet by 12 feet, it's downstairs on ground level. I'm not sure what 50 wpc or 15 wpc means, please excuse my ignorance. i guess it's a farely old receiver. i bought off a friend with the two jbl tower speakers. I'm not really wanted to buy any new ones, maybe new shelf speakers, i don't really what kind or how much power is needed. my budget would be around 200-300$. I also live in canada so the subs that you have advised, is that available in Canada? Also i'm nut sure of all the abbreviation, again, my apologies. the speakers i have now sound pretty good, well good enough for me, it definitely needs a sub though, cuz when i watch lord of the rings, it didn't sound right. well hope i have given enough info to you for some great expertise. thanks again. |
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Hawk | Mike: No apologies are needed except by me. I sometimes lapse into the jargon of the audio world, so please excuse my insensitivity. I asked my questions to clarify what you wanted, not to suggest that you needed all new speakers. Many of the earlier Home Theater receivers, and I think yours is one, have power ratings that are much higher for the fronts and less for the rears. Today, they all make the different channels the same power, but I supect yours has a power rating of something like 50 wpc ("watts per channel") for the front speakers and only 15 to 25 wpc for the rear surrounds. My only other question is to be sure that you have a "Subwoofer Out" connection on the back? I am 90% sure that you do, but some early HT receivers didn't. Assuming that you do, you should be able to get the PSB Subsonic 5 in your area. It is the bigger brother of the PSB SubZero I wrote about earlier and it is made by a Canadian company (we Americans love your Canadian speakers). I can tell you that the price in the States is about $375US, but you will have to shop to see what it costs there. Don't know if it is in your budget. Otherwise, I recommend the PSB SubZero as a good budget subwoofer and which will make the LOTR special effects come alive for you. With the subwoofer, you will need to buy a subwoofer cable that has an RCA male plug at either end, to connect the sub to your receiver. Cheers! |
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G-Man | Hopefully your receiver has a sub out or at least an LFE for your subwoofer. The main difference in receivers as far as subwoofer performance is whether or not the receiver has bass management and the quality of the bass management. This may not be that important if you have a dvd player with quality bass management. It just may be problematical when using your tuner, phono, or tv. In a worst case scenario you will have to get up and adjust your subwoofer whenever you use your system. Since your in Canada and don't want to spend more than $300, I would check into the PSB subwoofers. As anonymous said earlier, the Paradign 2200 is excellent--but it costs at least $620. The HSU VTF-2 at $499 is also great. The PSB susonic 5 can be gotten at $350 and is also excellent. The new PSB Alpha subsonic can be gotten at $219 (about $250 delivered) from DMC Electronics. That is a difficult model to beat at the price. At the under $300 budget I would get that PSB model. |
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mike smith | Wow, thank you so much Hawk and G-man. You guys are great. I had such a difficult time researching for info on the net. i tried searching google for "subwoofer reviews, ratings, info, and it got me nowhere. I'm so glad i ran into you guys. I'm gonna head out this weekend to shop around for the subs you have suggested. You've been so much help, is there anything that i may do for you, please let me know. thanks for all the info. Oh also what would you suggest for rear speakers? are they very important? I don't have the manual for my receiver so i'll have to check and play around with my receiver to check all the info requirements that you have suggested. |
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Hawk | Mike: I would recommend a pair of NHT SuperZero speakers for the rear surrounds. Very accurate and small speakers that you can place almost anywhere. Being closed out at One Call (www.onecall.com) for $87.50 each. |
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Alberrt | So much to learn, so many to choose from. Having read several posts I can see that people think the PSB subsonic 5i is a very good subwoofer. How does it compare to an Athena asp 300? Can anyone offer advice? I am buying an Onkyo tx-sr701 and have very old speakers with no subwoofer; will upgrade them later; |
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mike smith | Hello Hawk, I took a look at the NHT speakers they are an excellent choice and recomendation, unfortunately, there's only 2 places that sell them in my area and they are going for 400 a pair, taxes it will be a little bit over my budget, plus the psb sub. ordering online, i may have to pay customs at the border and it's a pain in the butt. if i may ask for another recomendation. Our big electronics stores include, FUTURESHOP, A&B SOUND, that's pretty much it. they sell JBL, ATHENA TECHNOLOGY, ENERGY, MISSION, SONY etc, more wide known names. i will definitely look into the subs, seems that's pretty important, and maybe an average rear speakers. i think the tower jbls i have, i'm quite happy with. thanks once again for your time and i look forward to your reply. |
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Anonymous | hello, i have an old receiver not sure how old but it has four front speakers and 2 rear speakers. it also has a "CENTER OUT" which i'm guessing for the center speakers but could i use that for my subwoofer? it has a plug much like the audio video plug except it's black. it's not like the front or rear speakers with red and black holes for the speaker wires? if anybody knows, i would appreciate any help. thanks. |