Infinity Beta 20
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page| Thread | Last Poster | Posts | Last Post | |
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| Archive through February 02, 2009 | Mordecai | 100 | ||
| Archive through January 24, 2009 | Art | 100 |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8843 Registered: Feb-05 | Don't buy anything from STO until I tell you a story...unless you already know them and have bought from them...then you can tell the rest of us. Put another way...the defective Diamond 9.1's that I have were originally bought by the my seller from STO. He never had a chance to listen to them before he sold them to me (believe me he didn't...he kept a new pair of Paradigm Mini Monitors because he liked the finish better, had he listened to the Wharfies that never would have happened). I'm dealing with all of them today and will report back with what happens. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2351 Registered: Oct-04 | I really hope it works out for you Art. As I previously stated, I purchased a pair of Mission M70 from STO a while back, their customer service (I think it was the owner) spent plenty of time with me on the phone, and the speakers arrived promptly a day or two later in perfect condition. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8844 Registered: Feb-05 | Was it Mike that you spoke to Christopher...that's who I'm working with. Mordecai, the Energy RC 10's will definitely be a better speaker than the Beta's and the cost, both new and refurbed reflects that. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8846 Registered: Feb-05 | Well STO will not deal with me on what the seller bought from him, and i told Mike that I understood. Mike stated that the seller told him that he used the Wharfedales and was unsatisfied with the sound. The seller listed the speakers as new in the box. I asked the seller to refund the purchase price. He clearly misrepresented the product as he stated new. The seller told me that he hadn't used them but that he opened the box (this was after the sale and I inquired) and didn't like the finish, so when he received the Mini Monitors in a better finish he sold the Wharfies. Doesn't matter who he told the truth to, he lied to someone and I have his emails and the word of Mike just in case it comes to some kind of formal process with Paypal. I offered to eat shipping both ways...he should take it because Paypal will likely reward me both the product and a refund. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 14 Registered: Jan-09 | Sorry to hear that Art. What a pain in the butt. Well the Beta 20's showed today an they are huge. I think they maybe too big for my application. I may have to sell them and find something smaller. If I keep them they will have to go on stands. Can anyone recommend stands for these beast that don't cost an arm and a leg? I almost think I'd rather invest the additional money for stands for a smaller high end speaker. Of course now I may have to buy a sub. I can't decide if I want to even try them out. It might be better to box them up and sellem. How close can these speakers be? Do they sound good at low volume (near field listening)? I'm thinking I could put them on stands and toe them slightly in. That will place them about 4 feet apart. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8848 Registered: Feb-05 | Dude...play 'em and tell us what you think. It's your turn to give us your impressions. If you've unboxed them the cat is already out of the bag. Break 'em in and let's see what's up. BTW...you do know that if you get a smaller high end speaker and it's not a floorstander that you will still need stands to get the most out of them...buck up my friend and run 'em in. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8850 Registered: Feb-05 | http://www.standsandmounts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4820 http://www.standsandmounts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1959 http://www.standsandmounts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2862 The Studio Tech is a nice little stand...I use them with my Infinity Primus 152's in the HT. So those are a few stands and here is the page where I found those. http://www.standsandmounts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=583 There are a number of other sites dedicated to stands and racks. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2351 Registered: Jun-07 | Good post Art. Mordecai- Run them in dude. Lets here em!!!! Art is right, if you want the speakers to sound their best you will need half decent stands anyway. For the price you paid for them, you can always use them in the garage or something if you dont like em. I bet you will though. We look forward to your thoughts. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 495 Registered: Jul-07 | Mordecai, at some point you're going to have to stop, listen to some music on your gear, and decide if you're content or not. I you end up not being content with the sound for some reason, you'll at least have a baseline to work from. It's easy to chase around thinking you should have done this or that, but if you're really that undecided you need to stop and listen for a while. Clarity often comes when you're listening to music and not worrying about the gear. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 15 Registered: Jan-09 | Good advice from all. After looking at speaker dimensions last night I decided to keep them for the time being. The reaon I went with them in the first place was bang for the buck. I am going to get some stands today hopefully. Once I get them up and running I will let you know what I think. Art - How many hours did it take to break them in? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8851 Registered: Feb-05 | They started to open up in 10 hrs but they are still improving. It was about 20 hrs when you could get a consistent glimpse into their strengths and weaknesses. I have intentionally not posted a final thought on them as I don't want to color anyone else's thoughts on them. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8855 Registered: Feb-05 | Well I will never hear the JBL's...they hit my front porch today and I had them sold just minutes after I brought them into the house...whew! Now to sell the second set of Beta's and the center channel. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2352 Registered: Oct-04 | Art, can I ask why you bought the additional JBL & Beta gear? |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 16 Registered: Jan-09 | So, are metal stands better than wood? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8856 Registered: Feb-05 | Christopher, bought the Beta's in case I wanted to switch the Primus HT for the Beta's and bought the JBL's out of curiosity and price. Mordecai, more often than not the metal stands are better, especially if they can be mass loaded (sand or lead shot). There are exceptions however based on the quality of the stands and the speakers that are going on them. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2355 Registered: Oct-04 | Personally, I think the Primus series is better than good enough for HT, especially in the average set-up, and certainly, I know all about curiosity. RS Optimus LX Pro LX8 MA R90 5.1 Totem Dreamcatcher Alpha 20 Mission M32i Beta 20 Mission M70 BA CR77 C-V! CLS-6 Tekton 4.5 AR XP62 Primus P362 + PS210 Insignia NS-B2111 ...Whew! Anytime you're ready to post that final review of the 20s Art, I'm all ears. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 17 Registered: Jan-09 | Christoper, Are you saying that the Primus series is better than the Beta? Have you compared the 162's to the 20's? Final question about stands. I get that the metal/steel are better because they are stronger and more stable because you can fill them sand/shot or whatever. But, are they better sound wise too? I ask this because I found a good deal on some wood stands at Fry's that I can pickup today. I will have to order steel stands because I can't find any locally including Craig's list. I need a 30 inch stand to get the tweeters to ear level when listening. Fry's has the Studiotech SW30's for $59.00. My concern is the base the speaker sets on is 5.75 x 5.75 and the weight of the speaker. I should finally get my new receiver and speaker setup today although they positioning will be an issue untile I get stands. I should have my banana plugs from Monoprice tomorrow or Monday. The HK instructions recommend the speakers be 6-8 feet apart for optimal listening. I plan to set the in the corner of my room which will place them about 9 feet apart. Art - what distance sounds the best so far for you? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2356 Registered: Oct-04 | I never said the Primus series is better than the Beta series. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8866 Registered: Feb-05 | The Studio Tech speaker stands say they hold up to 20 lbs...your call. If wood speaker stands usually sounded as good that's what I would prefer, and I don't. However any stands are better than no stands. Relative to placement Mordecai...try different things until it sounds the best to you. My rooms have limitations much as yours do I'm sure. Christopher, it won't really be a final review just more like final impressions. Don't have time to write reviews. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 18 Registered: Jan-09 | Christopher - I apologize for putting words in your mouth. I guess I misunderstood what your were saying. I should have asked you which series you preferred between the Primus and Beta. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8867 Registered: Feb-05 | Mordecai, hopefully you have them hooked up and breaking in while you ponder these other details. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2357 Registered: Jun-07 | Just an update. Definitely wont be buying the Beta 20's, have run into too many things I want to do with the theater and house that just makes way more sense to me then to be spending anything on a pair of speakers I probably wont use. In the future, maybe. But for now, its a 1080p Projector and Stewert Greywolf 106inch screen, Landscaping in spring, new kitchen counter(the wife wants a new one), and painting. Cheers. Thanks again Art for giving us your impression of the Beta 20. Look forward to your final thoughts/comparisons. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8868 Registered: Feb-05 | I totally understand Nick. I'm looking forward to seeing pics of that bad boy HT when you get it up and running. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11543 Registered: Dec-04 | Mord, speake placement suggestions from a receiver maker is like dancing about archetecture. Ignore the advise and learn how corner reinforcement affects bass response and clarity, do so by moving the speakers around. A sroom really will determine proper placement. If the two do not jive, then bad on the room, on the speaker or on your purchase. A square room is always to blame, btw. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 19 Registered: Jan-09 | Beta 20's - First Impressions (Bare with me cause I'm not an expert at this) I'm very impressed so far. I don't have the ideal setup right now as they are sitting on a hardwood desk about two feet apart. They are sitting on 2 inches of styrofoam. I'm running digital coaxial out of my PC to the HK AVR. All files are uncompressed. I've been listening to them for about two hours and I can say they blow my Klipsch Pro Media 2.1's away. The mid range and high frequenct is full, crisp, clear and remarkably articulate considering they are not near broken in. I like acoustical stuff so I've listened to Colbie Caillat, Jason Mraz, Tristan Prettymen. Led Zepplin's Stairway to Heaven guitar intro sounded fantastic. I play guitar and these speakers recreated a very realistic guitar string sound. Bass is good but when listening to U2's Love and Peace or Else the bass just didn't have the punch it should have. I had the speakers placed very close to the wall and I think the bass sounds less boxy pulled out about 6 inches. I can't wait to get the stands I ordered today. I will be able to move them around the room to find the sweet spot. They compare favorably to my Acculine A2's listening to the same recordings. I am excited to hear them once the open up. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2357 Registered: Oct-04 | Whew! I'm glad the 20s did better than the Klipsch Pro Media 2.1. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8871 Registered: Feb-05 | Excellent Mordecai...keep the impressions coming. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 20 Registered: Jan-09 | I guess it does sound silly comparing the 20's to the Klipsch but that is what I replaced them with and I only had them to compare in that room. I'm also learning to use the AVR too! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8873 Registered: Feb-05 | Very cool... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11550 Registered: Dec-04 | Mord, thats not the usual way to break them in, I think, but cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1751 Registered: May-06 | NICK K!!!! Live lesson buddy. Say you have $8,750 to spend Canadian? How much is available for your kit. Simple math now. Maybe $1,250 Canadian. It works like this, $5,000 towards house and bills, $2,500 towards wifes wardrobe, travel, paintings, whatever. That leaves you how much? $1,250 Not getting your wanker pulled over your Hi-Fi set up? Priceless |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1752 Registered: May-06 | unless of course your relationship with the bride is unimportant... |
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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 25 Registered: Apr-07 | "Mordecai, more often than not the metal stands are better, especially if they can be mass loaded (sand or lead shot). There are exceptions however based on the quality of the stands and the speakers that are going on them." Off topic but I have to ask... What are your thoughts on the TNT DIY design which is based on PVC pipe ( http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/stubby_e.html )? I'm currently using some Sanus wood stands that my speakers are too heavy for (they also resonate a lot) so I'm thinking about building and trying a pair of these out. I'm still new to all this, but I'm learning....I'm thinking filled PVC would be pretty dead? Would you still recommend a metal stand over these? Enjoying reading these comments about the Beta 20s...You guys almost have me convinced to try a pair. - Freddie |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8877 Registered: Feb-05 | Well Freddie...I'd say that they aren't very attractive. Never heard them so I can't comment on that...sure like the looks of the $500 metal stands. Yes I would still recommend metal stands...remember that not all metal stands are created equal though. You can get pretty good designs relatively inexpensively. Studio Tech SP24's at just a bit over $100 work very well in many applications. |
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Bronze Member Username: BoulderdashcciCanton, Massachusetts USA Post Number: 26 Registered: Apr-07 | Thanks Art, I'll look into those. I agree the TNT design isn't very nice looking, but I figured since PVC is pretty rigid they'd probably be a step up from my Sanus stands that shake if you touch the speaker (I'm sure they'd be fine for something smaller, but my 30lbs speakers are pushing it). Was mainly just wondering if filled PVC would be as dead as I'm thinking it is. Will look into the Studio Techs though, thanks for the suggestion. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2359 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL!!! Michael Wodek - lol its so true bud. I can only buy the Projector and screen "Once the house upgrades are done".lol Great. So I contacted the counter and door guy last night and set it up to get it done before winter is out. Im not waiting for that projector until the end of the year.lol screw that. The landscaping will have to be done last.  lol your post is funny because its true. Cheers. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11555 Registered: Dec-04 | You wanna talk reno?!? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2360 Registered: Jun-07 | lol I hear ya Nuck. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 21 Registered: Jan-09 | You all are good at finding quality components and budget prices. Can you recommend a sub to go with the 20's? Beta 20 Update - They have about 16 hours on them so far. They are opening up nicely especially the bass. I'm really liking listening to them the more I listen. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8886 Registered: Feb-05 | Yeah actually mine are playing right now and trust me the improvement continues for quite a while. How about the 10 inch Primus sub the PS 210. They can be had cheap on the Bay. I've never heard them but for he dough. I think a sub that would be ideal with the Beta 20's would be the Martin Logan Dynamo. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2361 Registered: Oct-04 | I have the PS210 married to the P362s, and it is extraordinary considering I paid $103 + s/h from Harman on eBay. Patrick Hart, the designer of the Beta series, claims the Beta SW10 was the best sub he & Harman ever produced. The Audio-Video Source had a few a while back, but they are all but extinct at this point. They do still however have the SW12 for $399. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8892 Registered: Feb-05 | Well guys...surprisingly the Beta's continue to improve, the improvement seems to be accelerating. They are now sounding like a damn competent $400 speaker...for a fraction of that price. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2362 Registered: Oct-04 | Did I say that they take a long time to break-in? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11565 Registered: Dec-04 | LOL |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8895 Registered: Feb-05 | To state what the improvements are... Better definition on the top end, still would like to see better timbre and articulation especially in regards to cymbals. Bass is better defined, both in the upper bass region and at the bottom of the drivers range. Driver integration is better. Still not getting the imaging that I would hope for but hey give it time...who knows. They still sound a bit stiff sooo... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8909 Registered: Feb-05 | OK Mordecai...how about a progress report. Do you have your stands yet? |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 22 Registered: Jan-09 | Hello - I started back to work this week after 4 months off from a layoff. So, I've not listened to them as much. I did get my speaker stands today and my banana plugs. I plan on putting the stands together tonight. I need to play around with positioning so that will probably start tomorrow night. So, I should have more to report by the end of the weekend. The wife is leaving town tomorrow morning and won't be back till Monday night so I'll have plenty of time to listen to them. What say you Art? What is the latest on yours since you moved them into main duty? Do you like them for movies and music? I maybe recommending these to my son who is moving into a new house and wants to get a new system. I've not listened to them as a movie speaker but I am considering moving to main duty to see what they sound like in a larger room. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8911 Registered: Feb-05 | The Beta's have only spent a few minutes in the main system as I don't want to move my main speakers..I've found just the right spot for them. I just put them back into the office system after having The Epos ELS 3's (the mainstay in that system) back in for a few days. Last night my replacement Wharfedale 9.1's came in so they have now replaced the Beta's again and are breaking in. Believe it or not this pair of 9.1's is flawed as well. One of them isn't build square so it wobbles around on the stand. All of the other standmount speakers in the house including the other 9.1 sits flush on the stand. Mike at STO is taking care of it by sending me a replacement speaker. With the Beta 20's I'm gonna put them back in the system either next weekend or the one after, wanna get used to the Wharfies so that I can have another frame of reference. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 617 Registered: Jun-08 | I wish I had a cheap into the Beta20's, even just for the fun of it. It's just not that simple and cheap to get a hold of in Canada. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8920 Registered: Feb-05 | It's been fun. Still not sure if I'll keep 'em, but I probably will. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 23 Registered: Jan-09 | Is shot better than sand for speaker stands? I bought some playground sand from Home Depot today to fill the speaker stands at least for the time being. I'm having a hard time finding buckshot in bulk. I have no idea how much I need. I can't seem to find any at Bass Pro Shop (I have a $50 gift card). I did find some at Cabela's but it seems to be expensive. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11599 Registered: Dec-04 | Does the shooting range collect up all the spent slugs? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8925 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm using sand Mordecai. I'm not sure which is better. Often folks mix both...sand will more than adequate. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 24 Registered: Jan-09 | So, you should never place speakers in a corner? Well, that is where mine are right now. I will move them out although they don't sound bad. In fact, I've had several people comment on how good they sound. What guage speaker wire is ideal? I'm actually using some 16 gauge I got from Monoprice and some Monster flatwire cable that is 16 or 18. I want to use the same wire. I can get 50 feet of 18 gauge wire from Monoprice for about $7.50. any thoughts or suggestions. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8961 Registered: Feb-05 | I use 14 gauge at minimum. 18 gauge is not good. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13346 Registered: May-04 | . "I use 14 gauge at minimum. 18 gauge is not good." A few of us here would disagree. Particularly when you are using speaker cable that sells for $7.50 a roll. Possibly if someone could explain the advantage of a thicker cable in this application, I could understand the concept of "I use 14 gauge at minimum. 18 gauge is not good". Why isn't 18 A.W.G. "good"? What makes 14 A.W.G. cable "better"? . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8962 Registered: Feb-05 | I was on my way to work when I answered the question. There are a million places online that person can look up the merits of heavier gauge speaker cable. In my experience 14 gauge has been about optimal (all things being equal, different gauges of the same wire for example) with mid fi systems and a somewhat heavier gauge for better systems. There are exceptions just like with everything. My advice is to experiment and find the sound you like the best. I found a good source for Tributaries and Liberty cable bulk speaker wire (local) and have been able to listen to various gauges in the same systems, it's good experience and will tell you more than anything you can read about the differences. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8963 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW Mordecai...here is a fun read. A.J. is a bit of an eccentric but I love him! http://www.vandenhul.com/userfiles/docs/Hi-Fi_Tips_and_Hints.pdf |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13350 Registered: May-04 | . "I was on my way to work when I answered the question. There are a million places online that person can look up the merits of heavier gauge speaker cable." That's OK, Art, I was expecting a reason for why you said what you did. A million, eh? Geez, I haven't been able to find a single one. Mordecai, you don't know me from beans, but IMO, the physical guage of the cable has nothing to to with the sound quality in any system. I would spend a bit more than $7.50 for a 50' roll however or else look at good inexpensive alternatives such as Home Depot or WalMart extension cables. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8969 Registered: Feb-05 | http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_216.html http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/home-theater-wiring.html http://www.aperionaudio.com/AperionU/choose_speaker-wiring.aspx http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/learningcenter/home/speakers_wire .html http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-gauge Read the vdh in my earlier post link and these and see what you think Mordecai. Those links took a few seconds to find and as I said above there are exceptions. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 25 Registered: Jan-09 | Wow! Lots of great articles and opinions on speaker cable. It turns out that I went to work for an Electrical Distributor who just happens to sell all kinds of cable that I can get for cost plus 10%. The bad news is that I would have to buy 500 foot spools! I can get Belden twisted pair for a good price. I figure I can use 100 feet for my home theater and my 2.0 system. If anyone is interested in buying the remaining 400 feet let me know. As for wire guage, well I confused the higher number with thickness. I have 16 gauge currently. Based on the information Art posted I would be better off with 14 or 12 gauge. I am trying to find this gauge as twisted pair. I just moved my 20's out of the corner and separated my speaker cables away from power cables. The problem is I have to keep moving my desk out too. I'm almost in the center of my room. I have them angled in. The bass does not sound as muddy now. However, when I play anything with real bass it makes me want to buy a sub. So, I am looking for better speaker wire and a sub. I will read everything you sent me Art. I guess I'm slowly turning into a dang audiophile! |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2371 Registered: Oct-04 | Take a look here http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/audio_creations_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8970 Registered: Feb-05 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/articles/207261.html http://www.anticables.com/products.html http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1209569853 http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2036277 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-118722.html https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/articles/207261.html http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize021998.htm Lot of ways of looking at cabling. I find that my system sounds best with van den Hul. Blue Jeans assembles a quality cable for cheap. http://www.bluejeanscable.com/ |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13352 Registered: May-04 | . I would say those aricles all leave out some very important information about amplifiers and speakers and how they mate electrically. Not to mention the gauge of wire inside your loudspeakers and the voice coil of the various drivers is being ignored in each article. Source and load impedance are not taken into account there. However, Modecai has made his decidion so I'll leave it at that. If he finds bliss in thick, stranded cables at a good price, that's his decision. . |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 26 Registered: Jan-09 | Jan Vigne - I live in the DFW metroplex too. I am all ears. I've not purchased anything yet. I do much research before I make decisions especially when I'm uncertain about which way to go. Since you are a fellow Texan please help me undestand the pros and cons of speaker type, length and thickness. I was hoping for a stimulating conversation about speaker cable. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11617 Registered: Dec-04 | Thats a big bucket of worms Mord. As a ferinstance, MW here uses 28g and 22 g wire as speaker runs, in a 300w hi-fi. http://www.soundstage2.com/lasvegas2009/sd07.html Do youthink these amps/speakers could run 400wpc? Look at the twisted pair between the 2 channels. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8972 Registered: Feb-05 | Just started a new thread for the speaker cables...let's keep this one about speakers. Ya'll can dig into the bucket of worms there. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13355 Registered: May-04 | . I don't know that I'm capable of a "stimulating conversation about speaker cable", Mordecai. Read the thread and see what you think. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8973 Registered: Feb-05 | The idea was to take technical information elsewhere. The only technical info of interest to me is how a given compenent or cable sounds. This is a thread I started so the last thing I want is to argue about something I don't find one bit interesting. As before Jan if we ignore each other we do just fine...I'm doin' my best to hold up my end. After listening to a lot of cables I've found what works for me. I would encourage others to do the same...which ofcourse would include yours Jan. That's why I started the other thread so that folks who are interested in that sort of thing can share that information. Mordecai, once you've found the combination that works best for you let us know how those speakers are sounding. Enjoy! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13357 Registered: May-04 | . Everyone should have a basic understanding of how this stuff works not just "how it sounds". Particularly if you're dispensing advice to others. If you don't understand what happens when you are connecting a cable between an amplifier and speaker or an interconnect into a turntable, you're literally flying blind. Why waste time and money using stuff that doesn't work together and then blame something else in the system? Knowing just a bit about what you're doing keeps you from listening to a whole lot of cables and stuff. Ya'know? Why just always make up excuses for why nothing you say really matters? Crimeny, you can be putting stuff together that isn't a good idea but if you have no idea what you're doing or what you're after, you just start plugging this and that together and soon you have a real mess on your hands. Is there a rule I've missed that says the person who started the thread gets to control the thread? I try to ignore you, Art, but every now and again you say something that I just have to comment on. You've got over 200 posts here and how much have I said? I haven't even really been watching this thread but something said, "UhOh! better go look!". I usually let most of your stuff pass as it speaks for itself - good and bad. This thread you started has been, from what little I've seen of it, quite an amusing adventure in mishaps and only going by "how something sounds" that day. Honestly, Art, you flit from one thing to the next like a longhorn drunk on clover. I've been reading your posts for how many years now, and I don't have a clue what you listen for on any given day. Really, Art, I do try to ignore you. I'm gonna try real hard again starting right now 'cause if you think I want to argue about cables ... . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8978 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW Mordecai...hopefully you never thought I meant that thicker is better relative to speaker cable. Try different sizes that's the key. Many moons ago I posted about my experience with Analysis Plus. For me there has been a balance and it's different in every setup. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13360 Registered: May-04 | . "What guage speaker wire is ideal?" "I use 14 gauge at minimum. 18 gauge is not good." "BTW Mordecai...hopefully you never thought I meant that thicker is better relative to speaker cable." OK, Art, I know I said I was going to try to ignore you, but then you served up this hanging curveball. I'm sure you have an excuse for why posted that last one - or the first one. They contradict each other, guy! Either you mean one or you mean the other. You cannot mean both. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8990 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm not going to engage in your stuff Jan you'll have to find someone else to spar with. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13361 Registered: May-04 | . Well, good for you, Art, that wasn't an excuse. It wasn't an answer - but it wasn't an excuse. I'm surprised! "Stuff", huh? Whatever! . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8997 Registered: Feb-05 | Hey Mordecai..still awaiting your judgement after having had the speakers for a few days and having them on stands...any words of wisdom. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 27 Registered: Jan-09 | This thread has gotten caustic lately. I'm still reading and researching speaker wire. I'm considering trying some 12 gauge Belkin cables from Blue Jeans. Art - I really like these speakers and they sound much better on (metal)stands. I moved them out of the corner and the bass is no longer muddy. I'm still experimenting with placement as I try to find the sweet spot for near field listening. I going to move the right speaker(they are 8ft apart righ now)out a little since it is a tad closer then the left. I'm also going to toe them in a little more. I thinks these speakers sound really great for acoustic, rock, country and scores/classical. Mid and upper ranges are clear and articulate. I compare them to my Acculine A2's which have the flat panel Plannar Magnet tweeters. The 20's are more musical and forgiving and have better mid bass (6in driver versus 2 5.25's). High frequencies are better with the A2's but the 20's due a fine job. R&B, Hip Hop or anything with a lot of bass is where these speakers suffer and need a sub (which I will buy). They continue to open up and I have no regrets. Evvryone that have heard them really likes how they sound. I don't regret spending $120 for speakers that compare with anything in the $400 range. I can see myself eventually spending more for speakers but I'm convinced right now that these are the best bang for the buck speakers you can buy. I say get them while you can on Ebay! |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2394 Registered: Oct-04 | Well, now that we've established that this $400 pair of Beta 20s (which current sell for about $100) is indeed comparable to other $400 speakers (no shock there), I want to up the ante, I want to see how they fare against The Big Boys. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 30 Registered: Jan-09 | I would love to see a shootout between the 20's and the Big Boys (who are you talking about?). I' seriously considering buying another pair. I've also been talking to my son about these speakers. He is the beginning stages of building a HT system to go with his 50in Sammy Plasma he just got. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9001 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks a bunch for the update Mordecai. The Blue Jeans cable is definitely high bang-for-buck. Lots of testimonials here and elsewhere to their merits. I'm really glad to hear that you are enjoying your speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2396 Registered: Oct-04 | Personally, for finished cables I think it's hard to beat Parts Express. If you want Belden Cable, you can get it by the foot for less than BJC. http://www.westlake-electronic.com/item_detail/WES15036/index.htm |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2397 Registered: Oct-04 | Personaly, I think the Paradigm Studio 20v4 would be a good start. I have my own opinions, but I'd know what others think. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 31 Registered: Jan-09 | Thanks Chris! That is cheaper but you have to buy a minimum of $25. I might go ahead and buy enough to the runs for the 2.0 and the HT. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9008 Registered: Feb-05 | After several weeks of waiting I finally received a reply from Revel relative to the M12's crossover. They gave a part number and cost...interestingly the Infinity Beta 20's crossover part number and cost are no longer available on the Infinity website. The Primus 142 (not the 152 or 162) is available and is less aprroximately $12 ea less expensive than the M12's. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2401 Registered: Oct-04 | Art, what does the M12 crossover cost? I have no idea, the most expensive 2-way crossover @ Parts Express is $26, is that el cheapo? Are you going to conduct this experiment? $12 difference between the Primus crossover & Concerta crossover, makes you think, aye? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9009 Registered: Feb-05 | $43.86. If you mean am I going to buy a pair and install them...no. I had thought about it when I had 2 pairs of Beta's but I sold of them. |
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New member Username: LintekHong Kong Post Number: 2 Registered: Oct-08 | hi art, i'm still waiting for your opinion on 9.1's |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9012 Registered: Feb-05 | Still breaking in...been pretty sick this weekend....sorry for the delay. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2402 Registered: Oct-04 | $43.86 each or a pair? Tempting, very tempting. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9013 Registered: Feb-05 | PM'd ya Christopher. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2403 Registered: Oct-04 | Right back at you Art. |
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New member Username: RajeshgajjarNewbury Park, California USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Dec-08 | Well, after reading the posts about the Beta 20s, I went to eBay and got myself a pair. I've only listened to them for a few hours and already very happy with my purchase. It is already proving to be a big improvement over my old speakers. No surprise - they are Sony SS-B1000's that I had settled for 2 years ago due to a cash crisis at the time. I also had to settle for a low budget Yamaha receiver, but my primary source is a Cambridge Audio 540C cd player and it does a great job in overcoming the humble origins of my Yammie receiver. Basically, I subscribe to the philosophy that if you start with a decent source, you will end up with a decent system. The introduction of the Beta 20s has provided noticeable improvements. Next steps are 2 buy decent speaker stands and speaker cable. My budget will then be exhausted and additional improvements will have to wait 6 months or so. Sigh ......... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9022 Registered: Feb-05 | Excellent Rajeshh...enjoy! |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2405 Registered: Oct-04 | If you want my 2-cents, don't skimp on the stands, but don't go nuts either, some good deals can be had here http://www.standsandmounts.com/ or http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?searchFilter=&srchExt=CAT &perPage=99&sortBy=1&layout=grid&page=1&srchPrice=&srchCat=515&srchMfg=&srchProm o= . For the Beta 20, I would stick with something at least 24" but not more than 30" high. On the other hand, I would go with simple unterminated "budget" cable from here http://www.westlake-electronic.com/item_detail/WES15036/index.htm . Even if money wasn't a concern, this might be a first choice because this is the same raw Belden 5000 cable, minus the fancy sheathing & connectors, companies like Blue Jeans Cable (and others) use in their "fancy" finished speaker cables. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 36 Registered: Jan-09 | I called Westlake today because they are out of the 5000UE. They are suppose to get in stock next week. Blue Jeans has free shipping so the difference in price will be minimal. The guy at Westlake suggested 1300a that is 12 gauge but has more strands but is .80 a foot. Shipping on 50 feet from Westlake will be around $10.00. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2406 Registered: Oct-04 | I just checked BJC and their price for the Belden 5000 12AWG is very good. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9025 Registered: Feb-05 | Blue Jeans is a company that charges fair prices for their products. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2407 Registered: Oct-04 | I just bought 20' of their "White Jacket" Belden 5000 12-AWG to fool around with. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 37 Registered: Jan-09 | Yes I agree that BJC is fair priced and with free shipping. I will probably order 50 foot Friday. I am going to get the Belden 5000 for my 2.0 system and my HT system front speakers. I am really interested to hear the difference between the 16 ga wire I am using now and the 12 ga stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2408 Registered: Oct-04 | What's this "free shipping" business? They charged me shipping? |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 38 Registered: Jan-09 | Chris - I was wrong about the free shipping at BJC. It is $5.00 compared to $12.00 at Westlake. I did find this at Monoprice. http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901 &p_id=2816&seq=1&format=2 I may want on it since it is only $14.00 for 50 feet which is about what I need. It looks like the same wire. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2412 Registered: Oct-04 | looks can be deceiving, but monoprice usually sells good stuff from what I read. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 39 Registered: Jan-09 | The 12 gauge hook up wire from Radio Shack sounds pretty right now. There are more strands in the Monoprice wire then the BJC wire. That should make the wire less stiff. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2413 Registered: Oct-04 | If you want some nice flexible 12 (or 14) AWG cable, try the Libetry Cable ExtraFlex 12-2C-EX http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_482.html . You can find it by-the-foot. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3201 Registered: May-05 | I'm running Canare 4S11 from Blue Jeans cable. If you have long speaker runs, this may be the way to go. Mine are almost 30ft per side. They were a huge upgrade from anything else I've used - Monster, Acoustic Research, etc. The Canare 4S11 isn't the easiest stuff in the world to work with. Its similar to TV cable in size and almost as stiff. But, you can bi-wire it or use it as a single 9 gauge run (which I do). I dressed mine up with some techflex, thermal shrink wrap, and Audioquest connectors. They look pretty good in my room. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13383 Registered: May-04 | . Stranding is only one portion of what makes a cable flexible. The jacket material also contributes to the amount of flexibility in any cable. Stick with a PVC dielectric both inside and out, which has a tendency to sound not quite as good as some of the stiffer insulatiing materials such as Teflon, and the cable will be more flexible overall. . |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2414 Registered: Oct-04 | I got the Belden 5000 cable, looks like decent enough stuff, I'll get back with a review. I might pick up some of that YardMaster extension cord for a comparison? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11677 Registered: Dec-04 | For a few bucks CM, I would like to know what you think. I will re-imburse you in beer when I get to NYC next for the trouble. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2416 Registered: Oct-04 | Promises, Promises. A beer in NYC will most likely cost more than the cable, so what the heck. I went ahead and purchased a 100' pkg. of neon green Utilitech 16/2 Gauge Lawn & Garden Cord for about $12. I'm figuring it's the same 16-AWG Woods Industry cable as the white YardMaster Cord, minus the ground wire. I'll cut into two 10' lengths & see what's what, I'll use some of the rest to replace the cord on my vacuum cleaner. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13393 Registered: May-04 | . "I went ahead and purchased a 100' pkg. of neon green Utilitech 16/2 Gauge Lawn & Garden Cord for about $12. I'm figuring it's the same 16-AWG Woods Industry cable as the white YardMaster Cord, minus the ground wire." It might not be the same. I tried several extension cord type cables and found they all sounded unlike the other. I stuck with the HD and the WalMart labels and found better sound quality in those two specific cables. Experimentation is great and you might discover the best sound possible, but you should also consider there are probably a few other people doing the same thing and reporting on what gives the best results. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13394 Registered: May-04 | . As a side note to the above, if you remember the orignal TAS speaker cable review in which the HD cable made its first appearance, the thought was put in the reviewer's head by a Quad rep who always used a Black and Decker extension cable to demonstrate Quad panels at hifi shows. . |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2417 Registered: Oct-04 | "It might not be the same. I tried several extension cord type cables and found they all sounded unlike the other. I stuck with the HD and the WalMart labels and found better sound quality in those two specific cables. Experimentation is great and you might discover the best sound possible, but you should also consider there are probably a few other people doing the same thing and reporting on what gives the best results." You might be right, but I'd find it hard to believe that Woods Industries is producing two different grades of 16-AWG wire, for the same application, at roughly the same price-point. If you ask me, I think the original mad-scientist that cooked-up these cables picked the cord they did because of different lengths of come in different colors, and the went with the white one, but I'm a cynic. Given, everything matters, and this is not "White Lightening" YardMaster/Walmart cord (Walmart is not in NYC yet), I'll leave my impressions and let you know what I think. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2419 Registered: Oct-04 | Just to clarify, I failed to mention Utilitech & YardMaster are both made by Woods Industries. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2421 Registered: Oct-04 | I'm listening to the Utilitech 16/2 on the HK/P362 set-up; 10' runs, au naturale, no sub. Lined-up, a familiar assortment of live acoustic blues & rock CDs. Right out of the gate & to my surprise, there is a noticeable difference to my Dayton cables; thicker bass, perhaps some spacial/soundstage differences, all sounds very nice, not necessarily better, but nice. Let me burn them in (?) for a few hours and I'll get back with an update. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 40 Registered: Jan-09 | Has anyone here tried the Beta C250? My son just picked up a pair of 20's as fronts for a HT setup. Also thought about using another 20. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9116 Registered: Feb-05 | I did have the Beta 250 for a short and actually hooked it up before selling it. It sounds great and is very compact. Excellent little center. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2431 Registered: Oct-04 | Ditto. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 42 Registered: Jan-09 | Thanks all. Man I'm really enjoying the 20's. I finally got the setup right for the room I'm in. They continue to open up and since I placed them on stands the bass is much better. I'm hearing things in songs I've not heard before. I am using 12 gauge hook up wire I got from Radio Shack. I am going to buy some 12 gauge twisted pair wire from Monoprice this week for both the 20's and my HT system. I am still looking at buying the 8inch Infinity sub to match up with the 20's. It will be interesting to hear them with a sub so they can concentrate on the mids and highs. Art, are you using a sub with yours? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9123 Registered: Feb-05 | I don't use a sub with my 2 channel setup anymore and when I did I preferred running my speakers full range. My Beta 20's have been in the boxes for a couple of weeks. The Diamond 9.1's are getting most of the PT in the office. The 9.1's are a very balanced speaker that is really impressive. I'm getting new stand and will be trying them with main system fairly soon. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 43 Registered: Jan-09 | I'd be interested to hear the comparison between the 9.1'2 and the 20's. |
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New member Username: LintekHong Kong Post Number: 3 Registered: Oct-08 | would be interested too how it compared to other speakers Art had or heard. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 44 Registered: Jan-09 | Is the Primus 250 a good match for the 20's? It looks like the Beta 250's are in high demand on Ebay and the Primus 250 is still very affordable. I thought I read that it is the same speaker but not the CMMD drivers but the CMD drivers. I don't know what that means exactly. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9125 Registered: Feb-05 | If you can make it Beta all around it would be best but the primus are similarly voiced. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2438 Registered: Oct-04 | http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/technology/technology_whatiscmmd.aspx?Langua ge=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 45 Registered: Jan-09 | Can you guys recommend a modest priced sub to go with the 20's? I've been looking at the Infinity subs on Ebay. I can get a 8inch sub for about $100 shipped. How low does a sub need to go for music? I don't listen to rap or hip hop. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9143 Registered: Feb-05 | Anything from Hsu or Outlaw, however they may be out of your budget. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 46 Registered: Jan-09 | Yeah, that is more than I want to spend. They are good subs though. How low does a sub used for music need to go? I'm thinking of buying a new sub for my HT. I may move the old into my office. It is a little big (12inch) but maybe the money is better spent on a nicer sub for the HT. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11783 Registered: Dec-04 | Mord, I would leave the larger sub in the HT and look at a small sealed sub for jazz and the like. Large Orchestral is another matter, with that big Organ and all. I am at 28 or so in a smallish room, thats lower than a low bass @ 40Hz. 30Hz in a room is a lot of bass, except for Orchestral (IMO). Quantity of bass is something different. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9145 Registered: Feb-05 | Good quality small sealed subs cost a whole bunch more than the Hsu or Outlaw...that's why I pointed you that way. Some folks are bound and determined to have a sub so it might as well be a good one. One of the least expensive good quality sealed subs is the Tannoy TS8 or TS10 however it's more than the Hsu or Outlaw. If you go cheap with a sub you will get exactly what you pay for. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11791 Registered: Dec-04 | Agreed, Art. Unless Mord can make a sub from DIY. JV has made a fabulous little unit... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9151 Registered: Feb-05 | So which is better to my ears...the Infinity Beta 20, Wharfedale Diamond 9.1, Epos ELS3, or the Paradigm Atom Monitor v6. These are all very nice budget speakers, each with it's own strengths and weaknesses. In order of preference: 1)Wharfedale Diamond 9.1. The best balanced speaker of the lot with by far the most refined high end. Bass is ample for the size of low end driver...being front ported helps for placement as well. It is the second biggest sounding speaker of the bunch after the Beta 20. Full, rich sound with the best imaging and the most 3 dimensional soundstage of the speakers on survery here. Higly recommended! 2)Epos ELS3 - Great little speaker with the second best imaging and a forward yet not aggressive soundstage. Biggest gripe with this speaker is that it sounds it's size. I remember when I put the Diamond 9.1's into the system...my wife said wow what changed, that sounds good and clear even in here...she was in another room but recognized that the sound was now bigger and fuller with the Wharfies. I would have a hard time parting with the ELS3. Both the Wharfedale and the Epos have a wonderful way with instruments. The Epos has a wide open midrange which let's you hear deep into the music however the timbre, though very good, is not as natural and organic as the Wharfie. Both the Beta 20 and the Paradigm have greater drawbacks than the previous two...it really is a draw between these two for the next spot. The Beta 20 is a big full sounding speaker which seems capable of greater volume than any of the other speakers here. The primary drawback of the speaker is that instruments do not sound natural. There is considerable grayness to every sound...a sameness that detracts from the overall experience for me. Imaging is pretty poor compared to the previous speakers. Overall it's a good speaker for $100 or a bit more and does a number of things right. When I had just the Beta 20 and the Epos there was considerable angst as to which would live long term in the office. My wife liked the full sound of the Beta 20 but we both liked the musicality of the Epos...in the end I chose the Epos...until the Wharfies rendered the point moot. The Paradigm Atom sounds bigger than the Epos and and not as big as the Beta 20. Better timbral balance than the Beta 20 with less detail than any of the speakers on survery here. Siginificant issue for me is the amount of port noise from this speaker...another big issue is that Paradigm seems to have reduced the amount of detail that this speaker can render to alleviate the possibility of fatigue or brightness that some reported with the v5...they went too far...though this speaker is not as vanilla as the Beta 20 it ain't far behind. It works wonderfully in my wife's system with her NAD C325BEE and when I offered the Beta 20's to her she said no thanks... These results were using my Creek 4330 integrated and modified Rotel RCD 971 cd player. I did try all of the speakers on the big system with very similar results except that this time the Beta 20 and Paradigm did not tie...the Paradigm sounded better to my ears. The Beta 20 just didn't sound good on the Rega gear, very flat and monochromatic. Well that's it. Started a new thread with this post as well. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/557762.html |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 694 Registered: Jun-08 | Wonderful review Art. Without hearing the Beta 20's I trust your review and would use them for room filling sound but not for critical listening in a dedicated two channel. They would probably work wonderfully as surrounds or on a mid to lower end system. You've got me tempted to seek out the Wharfies for a listen. |
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New member Username: LintekHong Kong Post Number: 4 Registered: Oct-08 | thanks art! |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2447 Registered: Oct-04 | Nice write-up Art. While I can't say I'm in complete agreement with the "gray" characterization of the Beta 20, there's no embarrassment coming in behind the Wharfedale Diamond 9.1, it's a fantastic speaker, as is the Epos ELS-3. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9174 Registered: Feb-05 | The Beta 20 did nothing offensive which is great coming from a speaker of it's present street price. It also has enviable build quality. The Wharfedales were a bit of challenge relative to QC. The first set had a speaker with a bad tweeter and the second set had one speaker that was built out of square so to speak. I wouldn't sit flat on a stand. The first set I bought from someone in Seattle (not a dealer) and it was difficult to resolve the issue. The second set I bought from STO Sound & Vision and Mike was excellent to deal with. He resolved the issue quickly and efficiently...a recommended retailer. Same with the Epos...first set had terrible build quality and the vinyl was actually peeling from the speaker...second set from Kurt at Echo Audio (who I will add resolved the issue quickly as well) was just perfect. Same with the Paradigm Atom Monitors, first set had the woofer surround applied incorrectly so it was all wrinkled up...second set just fine. The Beta 20's came ready to use...however it shouldn't be forgotten that they are refurbs...hmm. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2448 Registered: Oct-04 | The Wharfedale Diamond 9-Seies cabinets are strikingly similar to the DIY Dayton cabinets sold through Parts Express http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-733 , and that used by Best Buy for their famed Insignia NS-B2111 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7705307&type=product&id=1138085354 138 . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9177 Registered: Feb-05 | And also many other brands Christopher. But the Wharfies are no more those speakers than the Beta 20 is a Revel...even though the Revel is a closer relative than these others are to the Wharfies. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2449 Registered: Oct-04 | I was simply referring to the cabinets Art. It is possible IAG/Wharfedale is out-sourcing their cabinets, isn't it? Or vise versa? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9178 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm sure they are. There are a number of folks in the biz that have decided that a similar cabinet shape works well...including KEF, and Paradigm. I don't know where Wharfedale gets theirs...but wherever it is they need to do better with QC. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2450 Registered: Oct-04 | It would seem that the end of this little competition is well timed, as it seems Harman's eBay supply of Beta 20 has run dry. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11812 Registered: Dec-04 | musta had a shiteload. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2404 Registered: Jun-07 | You mean design Art? I believe all of Paradigms cabinets are made in by them in Canada. I'm sorry I was just drooling over these : http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/120152-paradigm_signature_s8_v1_color_che rry_/ Art- you going to make a profit off the Beta 20's? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9183 Registered: Feb-05 | No Nick I meant the shape of the Sigs and the upcoming Studio v5's. Well heck now that there is scarcity of course I'm gonna make a profit. Heck it's time to pull 'em from the market and try again in a month...doncha think...lol! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2406 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL I was thinking the same thing. Don't they retail for like 349.99? Now that people can't get them for dumb cheap I can see you make a 100 bucks or so on this deal. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 49 Registered: Jan-09 | Christopher: Have you tried the Beta's with a sub? I would think the mid bass might sound better doing less work with a sub handling 80Hz and below. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11835 Registered: Dec-04 | Can we consolidate this thing? Like a global economy or something? Just without the pepperspray at Canadian meeting places of global leaders. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2453 Registered: Oct-04 | Yes Mordecai, I've tried them with 2 subs, a Dayton Sub-120, and my current Infinity Primus PS210, but I prefer the 20s in the raw. In my room, with my gear, and given what I listen to, I am entirely satisfied with their performance. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9189 Registered: Feb-05 | Good goin' Christopher...I don't think they require a sub...to each his own. Hey fellas I did pull em from the market and now I wish I'd kept the other set....dagnabbit...lol! |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 52 Registered: Jan-09 | Thanks Chris. I just wanted an opinion before I purcahse a sub. Do you like the PS210? I've been watching them on Ebay and it looks like I could pick one up for $150 shipped. Have you personally compared the Diamond 9.1's to the 20's? I was actually going to buy the 9.1'2 before I found this disussion. All the reviews I read were stellar and the price is right. I'm very seriously considering buying the 9.1's. I mean I wouldn't have $400 in both pairs. I'm sure I can sell one or the other if I do a winner takes all comparison. I will admit though I think it will be hard to get rid of the 20's even they loose. I still think the price to performance ratio is hard to beat. I mean the 9.1's will cost twice as much. Will I get twice the sound quality? I don't know. I don't have the equipment quality or the ear that Art has so It may not be as noticeable to me. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2454 Registered: Oct-04 | "I mean the 9.1's will cost twice as much. Will I get twice the sound quality?" Mordecai, I think if you stick around here long enough, and if you get out there & listen enough, you'll find it doesn't quite work that way. I think there are a few speakers in the $200-300 range that are excellent, even a few for less than that. That's not to say these speakers are the equal in terms of build quality, pedigree, or performance of speakers costing 10X more (although sometimes it's damn close), but they came be every bit as enjoyable to you, especially if your on a budget. There are more important things to stress out over these days, IMHO. I spent less than $600 for my HK/Primus setup; it delivers unparalleld price/performance ratio, again, IMHO. I have not done a double-blind test with the 9.1 & the 20, but I have listened to both, albeit in a showroom for the 9.1. The PS210 is an excellent sub, I use it primarily for 2.1 HT. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 54 Registered: Jan-09 | Thanks Chris. I'm interested in doing my own comparison without spending a bunch of money. Art's review was very similar to Stereophile from 2005. I know I could sell either pair and get my money back and maybe make a little. So, did your listening experience with the 9.1's match Art's? I know it was not a double blind or even a side by side but curious to hear your opinion. I know you are pro Beta 20 like myself. I originally planned on listening to several different brands including the 9.1's. I think my 20's are broke in now and I'm still impressed. Now I did do a little comparison recently with my Acculine A2's and I think the Acculine's have a more refined sound with more clarity but I still think the 20's are more musical and overall better balanced speaker for music. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9193 Registered: Feb-05 | What I agree most with from the Stereophile review is the quality of the high end on the 9.1...on par with a $2k monitor..umm no, but very good and on par with some very good monitors in the 1k area. It's timbre that I find most impressive with the 9.1 it just gets musical instruments right. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2456 Registered: Oct-04 | I wrote a long response Mordecai, but eCoustics screwed me up and I'm too tired to re-write it. My time with the 9.1 was limited to a showroom, and I liked what I heard. |
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Bronze Member Username: MordecaiTexas Post Number: 55 Registered: Jan-09 | Thanks for your time and opinion Chris. I've had that happen to me a few times on this site. Based on yours and Art's review and the Stereophile review and I just ordered a pair. It will be interesting. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2474 Registered: Oct-04 | The Harman guy must be back from vacation. http://search.stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio_beta-20_W0QQfcdZ2QQfciZ15QQfclZ3QQfro mZR10QQfsnZHarmanQ20AudioQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsubZ10225969QQsaselZ26519532QQsofpZ0 |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9240 Registered: Feb-05 | Guess I should have sold them when I had a chance...noooo! I'm happy to be giving them to my wife's daughter (stepdaughter, hard to say when you marry mom when daughter's 30 yrs old). The grills will help keep the drivers safe from her children...and she will get an opportunity to listen to music on a nice system, it's a win/win. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2480 Registered: Oct-04 | I can't seem to let this thread sail off into the sunset. I came across this interview with Kevin Voecks, Director of Technology, Harman Specialty Group (Revel, Mark Levinson, Lexicon) from 2004 that sheds some light on Harman's design process. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/feature-interview-kevin-voecks-4-2004 .html |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9256 Registered: Feb-05 | What specifically should we be reading Chris? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 2481 Registered: Oct-04 | I found this bit about the design & collaboration process within Harman interesting. "Sumit: Do the different loudspeaker teams within Harman, like JBL and Infinity, do any form of collaboration? Kevin: There is at least informal collaboration. If there are discoveries made by a design team, then that basic improvement is shared. There is also Dr. Toole's whole research group which is all corporate, its all shared information and any company can choose how much of it to utilize. Then there is the Rapid Integration Lab, another research group that is doing some cutting edge research with practical applications that we are developing now and will be more so in the future. Sumit: Can other groups utilize the newly developed transducers that are used in the new Performa series? Kevin: The transducer technology is available to any one of our companies. It's a question of on each model whether there is the budget to utilize all of the refinements, sophistication that we are using in the new Performa models, for example. The transducer engineers like to show-off what they can do, and Revel is the place where they can best express their capabilities. Sumit: Revel is part of the Harman Specialty Group which includes the Mark Levinson and Lexicon brands. Is there any collaboration with those groups? Kevin: Well, I work equally for Mark Levinson, Lexicon and Revel. And there is absolutely synergy there in terms of things like low frequency research, how best to do bass management, how to do room equalization, which will be an option in Lexicon processors, for example. And it's very important that the loudspeakers' capabilities and how they integrate to the room is taken as a whole with room equalization processors that are to be used by our electronics clients. So there is a lot of connection there. The research group in Northridge definitely works together with Lexicon and Levinson engineering groups in Bedford." |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 9260 Registered: Feb-05 | We decided not to get the Primus sub for the HT and instead ordered a Hsu STF2. Boom, boom, boom! |
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