Gotta question about speaker rating. I was looking a B&W 600 series speakers such as the DM604s, and I couldnt help but notice the power rating was 25W-200W. Now Im no audiophile, but to me 200W doesnt seem like a whole lot. Does it mean if you were to push over 200W thru those speakers they would blow, I would like to put a bigger amp on these speakers in the future like a Outlaw Audio Model 755 (5 x 200wpc). At what point would they distort? I was looking at Axiom M80s and they are rated up to 400W, which seems considerably better than the B&W, but I have heard that B&W is suppost to be a great speaker manufacturer, and as a matter of fact the B&W DM604s are about $300 more per pair than the Axiom M80s. Can someone please help me make sense of all this!!!!!
timn8ter
Posted on
This seems to be a very misunderstood rating, and it's no wonder. Many manufacturers have latched on to the erroneous assumption by many that more watts is better, and they haven't done anything to change that. For starters, are we talking recommended power input, acoustical watts, maximum power rating? What if I told you that some of the best stereo setups around only have 7 watt amplifiers? Very efficient speakers will only require 1 or 2 watts to get them to listening volume. Even less efficient ones may only require 20 watts total. Don't be fooled. Listen to them, then buy what sounds good to you.
timn8ter
Posted on
I had to hurry through that. The dinner bell was ringing. To answer your specific questions: 1. 200W is more power than you would use for normal listening levels in loudspeakers, even abnormal listening. Large subwoofers may require levels this high but not your mains, and certainly not your surrounds. 2. The speakers would start to distort long before you hit 200W and that goes for pretty much all of them. 3. Just because a speaker system can handle more power doesn't mean it's going to sound better. As for amplifiers, it's nice to have the extra headroom and sometimes a higher output power rating at a particular distortion level will mean miniscule distortion at normal levels. One person once said; "It's the first watt that's the most important".
Anonymous
Posted on
timn8ter, Apart from the efficiency rating in db, is the impedance of the driver also a factor of efficiency? Is higher impedance more efficient or the other way round? Is 88 db considered to be a efficient speaker? Thanks
G-Man
Posted on
The efficiency rating (such as low efficiency 84 db's or high efficiency 91 db's)effect the amount of watts you need to drive the speakers to the same volume. So you don't need to advance the volume control as much on a pair of 91db speakers as you would on 85 db speakers. So the higher the db the more efficent the speaker. 88 db is reasonable efficency.
Then you get to the average ohms the speaker operates. You will generally find 4 ohm, 6 ohm, and 8 ohm speakers. You need less power to drive a 4 ohm speaker, but then there are other problems. These problems are that speakers (as a rule) have major dips and increases in ohms over their frequency response curves. When the ohms dip below 2 it starts approaching the resistance of the speaker wire--hence it starts to present a more difficult "load" for the power supply to drive.
It is in this area that NAD receiver power supplies beat most of their similarly priced competition. They spend considerable money on the power supplies ability to drive low impedances. Hence, they often don't have all the features of other similarly priced receivers. The cheapest receiver that is good at driving 4 ohm speakers is the Outlaw Audio at $499. But it doesn't have Prologic II.
An asset of most separate amps--they have dedicated power supplies that can easily drive 4 ohm loads. For instance, to do this confidently on a Pioneer Elite you would probably have to get either the Elite 47tx or the 49txi. They have monster power supplies as far as receivers are concerned. But when you go down the line, that is where most companies save money--by cutting back on the "robustness" of the power supplies.
Now, if you buy quality 8 ohm speakers (and most never get close to 2 ohms)--you can drive them well with the less expensive power-supplied receivers.
Which is not to say that all things being equal I don't prefer having a robust power supply. It gives you the freedom to buy pretty much any speaker system. At worst, it just guilds the lily on an easily driven 8 ohm system and gives you extra insurance that there will never be a problem in driving your speakers.
Yuin M
Posted on
G-man, I want to buy a Marantz SR4300 will it drive my 4 ohm speakers good?
G-Man
Posted on
I might not be confident of it, but to be sure I would go to the Marantz website and contact their tech department and ask them.
I just received an answer on a question I had from Paradigm regarding receivers. So most sites are very happy to get you the information you need. And I am sure the Marantz tech people are more informed on their equipment than anyone in this site.
shaun6142
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Thanks guys for the help. One more question... So if im only using 8 ohm speakers could I just get a Onkyo 701 which is suppost to be 100wpc X 6, and spend about $800, versus spending about $1300 on that NAD T762? Like to get good A/V receiver for under $900 if I could. This will be used on B & W 600 series 3 speakers in a 20 X 23 ft. room w/12 foot ceiling. Thanks
timn8ter
Posted on
If you can kick in a little more money the Onkyo TX-SR800 is a very good A/V receiver.
shaun6142
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Ok, so I get the SR800 and Im just as well off as getting the more expensive NAD, right?
timn8ter
Posted on
The NAD is a quality unit but I think in your situation you'd be very happy with the Onkyo. This would also provide you the opportunity of upgrading later on with a separate amp if for some reason you wanted to. The pre/pro section of the Onkyo is what makes it such a great product, (not that Onkyo amps are bad). If you're still wondering, you could post in the receiver section and get a whole load more of opinions.
G-Man
Posted on
If you go with 8 ohm speakers the Onkyo is a fine unit. I was told this by a Paradigm technician, as they sell mostly 8 ohm speakers that are meant to be driven by most commercial receivers of at least 80 watts per channel.
elitefan
Posted on
You should be fine with either the Onkyo 701 or the 800 or the new 801. Onkyo with B&W would be a fine combo or Onkyo with Paradigm. If I didn't have my Elite 45 I would have the Onkyo 800. As far as G-Man's comment about the Elite lines power supplies I think the 45 would drive 4 ohm speakers with no problem. The power supply on this unit is massive and the overall weight is exactly the same as the NAD762.[41pounds.]
G-Man
Posted on
Elite--
I would tend to agree with you on the Pioneer Elite 45tx, but I still wouldn't feel 100% comfortable driving 4 ohm speakers with them unless I contacted the Elite tech staff first.
On a positive note, Pioneer Elite measure their power envelopes very conservatively, with all channels driven simultaneously and throughout the frequency range. They don't pick out a particular frequency that benefits measurement and they drive every channel in the receiver when they measure the output. There are are many companies that DO NOT measure this way.
There is little doubt that of the good consumer receivers (and even non-consumer receivers) they are tough to beat at their price points.
I certainly would love to see a comparison of the power envelopes using the same methodology of the PE 45tx, 55tx,49txi, NAD T752 and T762, Denon 2803, 3803, 5803, HK 325, 525, and some others. Not that it would necessarily change the minds of true believers that love any particular brand, but the truth can set you free:-)
Also it might answer a lot of the same questions that frequently arise from visitors to this forum and all anyone would have to say is: hit "xyz" link and you will have your power envelope measurements into 8 ohms and 4 ohms (all conducted the same way).
You can never have too much accurate information and measurements. Just as people who build cars, airplanes, and a/v receivers depend on them--so should people who buy these things rely on measurements.
Which is not to say that power measurements are the only ones to rely on in making an a/v receiver purchases. There are many other measurements, features, and qualities that should effect a purchase. It is too bad that they are so difficult to come by. I wish Sound and Vision and other publications would dedicate an issue just in this area.