What to do with my Rega
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 379 Registered: Jul-07 | It's been driving me crazy that all of my LP's are sitting there, unplayed, for what seems like forever. My Rega Planar 3 hasn't seen regular use since just after our first of 4 kids were born 15 years ago. Sad. Very sad. Now that I've got my rig sounding awesome, I'm dying to see if I can get my vinyl to sound as good as the digital setup. I've purchased some cd's recently that I own in vinyl only to be horribly disappointed in the sound quality. The Rega hasn't been serviced in 15 years, so I'm assuming a starting point would be a new belt. I don't know what else in the motor or drive assembly requires a little TLC. A new cartridge is in order, as the one that is one it as been on for 10+ years, and the needle was butchered by child #2 (bent off at a right angle). The other wondering I had was the interconnects. These things look like old Radio Shack $2.99 connectors, so they can't be doing the sound any favours. Can these be upgraded ? I'm going to take it into the local dealer here that has a guy who still works on TT's, but want to have an idea what I should do first. I want to get very comparable sound (or better?) to my digital setup which is pretty sweet to these ears. Any suggestions would be appreaciated as always. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13086 Registered: May-04 | . Put a belt and a cartridge on it and enjoy it. Changing the interconnects on the Rega arm is a pain and seldom worth the expense. Rega staunchly defended the quality of the Rega arm cable and you could easily be doing worse. You cannot judge the quality of a cable by looking at the jacket. If you truly want an upgrade, buy one of the after market hot rodded Rega arms and slip it in place on your table. Origin Live builds several arms based on the RB250/300 which would all be an upgrade though how much you will hear vs the cost is for you to determine. For now, just get your table running and invest in a good vacuum type record cleaning system. That will do more for your sound quality than a new arm cable or a new arm at this point. . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 380 Registered: Jul-07 | Thanks Jan. Do you have any cartrige advice ? I'd like to keep the expense in the $300-$500 if possible. Also, I have an older Parasound outboard phono preamp. From what I've read it's not a bad starting point, but far from the final word in audio. I'll start with the belt and cartridge and see how far that takes me. And the cleaning system suggestion is undoubtedly a good one. I'm sure my records are a mess. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8093 Registered: Feb-05 | The Shelter 201 and entry level Benz are nice as well as the Dynavector 10x5. If you're not sure about investing that much there is an Audio Technica for under $100 that would be a good starting point...forget the model and I'm at work...seems like the #95 is in the model. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1511 Registered: May-06 | Denon makes some nice cartridges that could work for you, the DL-103 or perhaps an upgraded version of it that Zu Audio produces. I had a Benz Micro MC20E that sounded very nice for the money. It comes in low, 0.3mv, medium, 0.8mv, or high, 2.2mv outputs depending upon what your Parasound can accomodate. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8094 Registered: Feb-05 | Mike has a good point with the Denon's and that Benz is the one I was trying to think of. Good luck. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13087 Registered: May-04 | . IMO there's no way to advise you on which particular cartridge you should buy. The advice I would give is to think of the cartridge as the analogue to your speakers, they - cartridge and speakers - are both "transducers", a device which converts one form of energy into another. As such cartridges are as peculiar and individual in their sound as are speakers with each model having its own characteristics. Models such as Grado, Benz, Shure, Ortofon, etc. which exhibit a strong house sound are always good choices IMO, just find out what the house sound for, say, Ortofon is and then choose to fit your budget. Whether you prefer the lively sound of a Dynavector/Sumiko or the smooth sound of a Grado/Ortofon is something you will have to decide for yourself. I would advise you to choose a sound that complements your system rather than trying to compensate for what your system does poorly or not at all. If your Rega has the straight RB300 arm, it is of sufficient quality to deal with almost any cartridge within reason. It is also good enough to extract large amounts of signal from even lower priced cartridges. Be aware the Rega table tends to have hum problems with certain cartridges such as the plastic bodied Grados and don't buy such a design without a guarantee from the seller of your satisfaction. You can get on the Stereophile web site and check their recommended components for ideas or check here, http://www.elusivedisc.com/departments.asp?dept=912, for a list of recommended products sold by The Elusive Disc. Also check out Music Direct and The Needle Doctor. Check the weight of the cartridge to make certain it is not too heavy for the Rega arm and you should be fine. A cheap sound quality upgrade to the RB300 is a heavier counterweight; http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/heavyweight_e.html I would pass on VTA adjusters for the Rega arm for the time being. Whatever cartridge you buy will need to accomodate the non-adjustable nature of the Rega arm. This makes the Rega cartridges excellent choices for the Rega tables. If you decide against the Rega cartridge, look at the height/weight of the Rega cartridges and choose a cartridge that is of similar specs. If you stray too far from the Rega standard, you'll need to order spacers to fit under the arm post. Also check the input sensitivity of your phono pre amp section and choose a cartridge that is of average output voltage to accomodate your system without resorting to additional pre amps or step up devices. If you don't understand how to interpret pre amp sensitivity or cartridge output voltage, anyone at a respectable seller should be able to guide your decision, or as a rule I would suggest you buy the highest output version of any cartridge you might consider. The Denon 103 is extremely low output and will require a step up device in almost all cases. Don't get hung up on moving magnet vs. moving coil, just pick the cartridge that best suits your system. You can also upgrade your table by buying the newest motor design from Rega and adding the speed controller now or at a later date. Almost everything you buy to upgrade the Rega can be added with minimal mechanical know how. Finally, if you haven't been listening to the Rega with the dustcover removed, do so. The dustcover is a top notch resonance producer and removing it cleans up the sound. Use the dustcover only when you are not playing LP's. Buy or find a way to isolate the table from external feedback (you might try a bag of tennis balls in their mesh sack from Target or any sporting goods store, just place it under the table and make certain the table is situated to provide stable placement when you operate the arm and power switch) and you should be set with a very good table for years to come. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13088 Registered: May-04 | . http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?anlgcart |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 382 Registered: Jul-07 | Thanks all. I'll do some more research re: the cartridges. I have worked hard to get the sound that I want out of my kit, so I want to make sure I align the TT with the same qualities, as much as I can anyways. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1512 Registered: May-06 | Chris, make sure to click on the link to "Classifieds" should you go to the link JV provided above. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 394 Registered: Jul-07 | Wow. The analogue world is a little mind blowing. And pricey. One question. If I thought that I'd end up replacing my current phono pre-amp along with the cartridge, should I be thinking preamp first, and match the cartridge to it, or vise versa. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3332 Registered: Sep-04 | Hi Chris, It should at least turn the platter correctly, but if the oil has managed to spill out or by some miracle the bearing is missing (it happens!), it'll need a minor service (or a new bearing). The belt is a given - since it hasn't been used it'll have settled into place and will have a kink in it (bad thing). If the motor unit doesn't turn properly or won't spin up (through disuse), you can have a motor upgrade. The motor upgrade actually improves the sound of the original deck anyway because the mounting and the motor itself are different. the motor upgrade costs £85 (about $130 at the latest exchange rate). If you have the straight RB300 with the grey armlead, that's a good basic product to stick with. Provided the condition is good, it doesn't need changing. If you wanted to upgrade there are options such as Michell's special counterweight stub and Incognito's rewire, but if you choose the rewire, make sure the person fitting it knows what they're doing and has done it before since it's a delicate job. As Jan says, cartridges are transducers, just like microphones and speakers. They colour the sound the most since they are the component that turns one type of energy into another. If you choose a non-Rega cartridge (which I would absolutely recommend you do), the height of the arm may require adjustment since not all cartridges are the same height. Luckily Rega cartridges are lower than any other I've come across. Raising the arm height means slipping in a ring called a spacer, available for a small charge from Rega. These spacers come in various heights. Most cartridges at the lower end of the scale need a 2mm spacer. You need to remove the arm from the deck by undoing the cable tie and a large nut holding the arm in place from the underneath. Then thread the spacer all the way along to the base of the arm and put it back in place. Easy job. Recommendations: I like both the Ortofon 2m series and the Goldring 2000 series. If given the choice I would probably go for the Goldrings, but it's a close run thing. On your side of the pond, there's also the Grado Prestige series - I have a particular fondness for the Grado Prestige Gold. Personally I prefer to play the deck with the lid in the closed position. My 2nd preference is to remove the lid completely, with least preferred being to have the lid in the open position on the deck. I actually prefer to close the lid because I find it helps remove extraneous noise. Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 395 Registered: Jul-07 | Thanks Frank, very helpful. Actually the digging I've done so far has lead me to the Grado Prestige Gold as a definate option. The local dealer has it on a TT to listen to, and recommended it on my table. It sounded very nice indeed, but since it wasn't on a Rega table I don't know how that may transfer to what I'd actually hear at home. I suspect I'll find it very frustrating to demo cartridges through completely unfamiliar equipment and try to pull something useful out of the experience. The price on the Grado is reasonable too. I do indeed have the RB300, no grey armlead (armlead?) that I'm aware of though. I'll be listening to it with the top completely off, as it needs to slide into a slot in my stand. So, no room to flip the lid up. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3347 Registered: Sep-04 | In the very early days, the RB300 had a captive thin black lead. That lead was demoted to the RB250 and replaced with a captive thicker grey lead on the RB300. The earlier arm lead is really not all that much performance-wise but it'll do the job for now! The Prestige Gold works a treat in the Planar 3. Obviously, if you heard it on something like a VPI you won't get the same performance from it, but if you consider it from the point of view of other cartridges available at the price (rather than whether you're getting the best from it) it is a good match. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 410 Registered: Jul-07 | After a bunch of reading and thinking on what I wanted to do, I wandered over to the local dealer (Peak Audio) to see what they had in the shop. They had two tables setup, both Project III (Debut I think) TT's, one with a Ortofon 2m Bronze cart ($399 cdn), one with a Ortofon 2m Red ($99 cdn). They are a really good bunch to deal with at that shop. I gave them my story as to what I wanted....which is basically to get my TT up and running and get it sounding as engaging (or better) than my digital setup. After a bunch of listening back and forth to different setups, I think I've figured a few things out. First, I think it's more important to sink money in a proper phono preamp. When switching back and forth from the two tables, a lesser preamp masked significantly the differences in the two cartridges. For instance, the Bronze did not sound a lot different than the Red on the CA640p (Cambridge Audio), but through the Moon LP3 the differences were obvious. Of course there is a significant difference in the cost of the two preamps ($240 cdn vs $599 cdn), but what you get for the money is hard to miss. So, I arranged to drop my TT off to them for them to install a new belt, and the 2m Bronze. I asked if, when I picked the TT up, could I hook it up to the different preamps (CA640p, Lp3, and Grado PH-1) and decide what to do. The sales guy did me one better, and offered to let me take the LP3 home for the weekend if I picked the TT up on a Friday evening. He knew where I was leaning obviously. I'm going to take him up on his offer. I have to work next weekend (crap!) but I'll arrange to pick the TT up in two weeks and hook it up with the Moon and give it a whirl. Really looking forward to it. Unfortunately the belt from Rega here is a rediculous $50 cdn. Between the belt, preamp, and cart I'll be out over $1000....but it will be worth it if it sounds as good (or better) at home as it did in the shop. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 411 Registered: Jul-07 | As a side note, the guys at that shop were a bit luke warm on the Grado cart's, even though they carried them. They didn't say anything particularly bad about them, but clearly they were underwhelmed with them compared to the Ortofon's. I didn't get to hear the Grado's myself as none were setup on TT's. I thought that was interesting, given everything I've read about the latest Grado's....which is all good. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1591 Registered: May-06 | Chris, I bought my Gallos on the word of my dealer as they didn't sound anywhere near as good in his set up as they did once I got them home. Most of the time gear sounds better at home than it does in the shop, IMO. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8262 Registered: Feb-05 | Congrats on getting your Rega up and running. looking forward to reading about it when you get it back home. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11181 Registered: Dec-04 | That setup should work great Chris! Very nice, can't wait for your thoughts. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2117 Registered: Jun-07 | Very nice Chris. The local guys here basically felt the same way when comparing the Grado's vs the Ortofon's. They clearly favoured the Ortofon, and they carried both. Thanks for sharing your story. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13143 Registered: May-04 | . "Chris, I bought my Gallos on the word of my dealer as they didn't sound anywhere near as good in his set up as they did once I got them home." I heard your speakers when you got them home. They sounded worse than that when you heard them in the shop?! GeezLouise! Compared to where they are now after all the tweaking, they sounded miserable when I first heard them. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11186 Registered: Dec-04 | Cruel to be Kind. Nick Gilder. In the right measure. And if you own this recording, you are off the island. I like the speakers and the room. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8270 Registered: Feb-05 | Isn't that Nick Lowe and what's wrong with it? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11193 Registered: Dec-04 | Not going to get one past Art, cause he probably owns it!!! Attaboy Art. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 411 Registered: Dec-07 | Wow. The analogue world is a little mind blowing. And pricey. It is a lot of both. Which is why I have pretty much decided to forego it for the near future. For what it would cost me to get setup, I can buy several hundred CDs and save a lot of aggravation.  |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11197 Registered: Dec-04 | Own and keep good music, Neil. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 414 Registered: Jul-07 | Neil, that thought certainly crossed my mind. The clincher though was that I tried buying some of my beloved LP's on CD and the results were disappointing to say the least. They absolutely don't sound anywhere near as good as even on my very basic analogue setup previously. There is just too many memories and favorite tunes to leave them sit there. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 412 Registered: Dec-07 | Chris, starting with a table I might look at it differently. The table/arm I was looking at would have wound up being less than 50% of the total cost considering phono stage, cart, LP cleaning machine, dust cover, etc, etc. I was going to be well over $4K by the time I was through and I'm just not prepared to go there right now, if ever. One of the virtues of my system is that I have alot of flexibility in the CDP source and I find the tubes really soften up some of those early CDs that were a bit harsh. I think my money will be better spent on music. Better interconnects and some tube rolling about all I am looking to do, and I have no urgency with either. Will look forward to hearing how yours sounds when you get it fired up. Cheers. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 415 Registered: Jul-07 | Neil, I understand completely. That's why it's taken me this long to decide to do it. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1596 Registered: May-06 | "Compared to where they are now after all the tweaking, they sounded miserable when I first heard them." Miserable to you was still better than what I had and better than the setup at the shop. Granted everything is sounding nice now, better than even you might imagine with the speaker stands in place. I had a friend over yesterday for some extended listening. The fellow is pianist, who said that George Winston - Into the Winter sounded natural, that the piano was not soft. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3413 Registered: Sep-04 | The piano is a percussive instrument. Most people don't get that until they hear a real one. And boy, are they surprised when they hear a real one (a good one)! |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 418 Registered: Dec-07 | I find listening to a piano live in a concert hall is one of the best benchmarks for judging how well an audio system reproduces music. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 430 Registered: Jul-07 | I dug the Rega out the other night to clean it up and get it ready to take into the dealer later in the week for the cartridge install, and to pick up the Moon LP3 for trial. On inspection, the cables (interconnects not power chord) has a number of cracks and holes along the length of it. Some of it looks like age, some looks like one of the d@mn cats was chewing on it. Not sure how they would have gotten up on the storage rack where it was, but that's what it looks like. Now I'm wondering whether it's worthwhile putting a cartridge on the table at all, without replacing the wires. By the time I've replaced the wires, added a belt, and installed a cartridge, there might be a better deal out there on a used table that's more or less ready to setup and play. Not sure what to do at this point. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11243 Registered: Dec-04 | Fix it Chris. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13177 Registered: May-04 | . Spend the money on a night out listening to good music and think about it. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 439 Registered: Dec-07 | I'm biased. I like nights out listening to good music and procrastinating. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 431 Registered: Jul-07 | I'm going to take the Rega into the dealer after work today and see what they have to say. They can probably order either replacement wires from Rega, or alternative products. I expect they'll also mention as an option putting the RB300 on a Project deck. How would the Project TT's compare to the RP 3 ? The table they had the Ortofon on was an Expression, which was around $700 with an arm. The sales guy mentioned that the arm (RB300) on the Rega was superior, but he preferred the actual Project table to the Rega. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13182 Registered: May-04 | . That means he thinks the Project piece is a synergistic pairing. Therefore, the Rega arm on the Project is ...} |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 434 Registered: Jul-07 | So back I go to the dealers after work. The dude I had talked to a couple of weeks ago wasn't working tonight, so I had a couple of other guys helping me out. I took the Rega in and they took a look-see at it. They didn't think the abrasions on the interconnects were fatal. Nothing seemed to get through to bare wire. They said they could send the table away to have the wire replaced, but it would take 6 weeks to get it back. They recommended replacing the connectors only, mounting a cartridge on it, and see what I had. So, I left it with them for a few days. I decided to go with the Ortofon 2m Bronze ($399). It looks to me like the 2m series was specifically designed for the RB300 arm. The headshell shape exactly matches the shape of the cartridge, and the sales dude said that the VTA was spot on without shimming the arm. Made sense to me. They also recommended a proper record cleaning system (as JV did), which I've already ordered (KAB EV-1). I should have the table back early next week. When I pick it up I'll snag the Moon LP3 to try out. They said they'd set it up and have a listen prior to me picking it up to see if they thought anything was wrong with the wires or anything else. One of the guys I was dealing with owned the exact table and arm, so he was keen on me staying with it. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8357 Registered: Feb-05 | Sounds good, looking forward to reading about it after you pick it up. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13194 Registered: May-04 | . Did they recommend a state of the art "Kitty Away"? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3435 Registered: Sep-04 | De-claw the cat... |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 435 Registered: Jul-07 | They called this afternoon and said it was ready to pickup. I was out xmas shopping with my daughter so I swung over. They replaced the rca ends, and said the solder job on the old ones was the worst they had ever seen. I told them it had never been touched, which I guess means it came that way from the factory. Odd. The guy that was there when I picked it up is the guy that does all of the work on the tables. He said he had set it up and listened to it after he had done the work, and that it sounded excellent. Lively, great depth, lots of punch down low. He hadn't actually heard the Bronze on that table, and was thoroughly impresssed. As expected, the VTA was spot on without shimming, and the cartridge does indeed look like it was made for that arm. He also cautioned against replacing the cables. He said he had heard a number of replacement cables, some quite expensive, that did nothing for the sound, or sounded worse. Since you'd likely never hear the cables before buying, this seems like a crapshoot at best. I got the Moon LP3 on loan so I'm ready to go. I won't have time tonight to get it all setup and reorganize the stereo stand, but I'll have lots of time tomorrow. I can't wait to hear it. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 436 Registered: Jul-07 | Ah yes the cats. None of them were talking (we have 3 of them to go with 2 dogs and 4 kids in a 3 bedroom bungalow). Pretty much everything I own is in peril each and every day. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 441 Registered: Dec-07 | Sounds like you'll be having some fun this weekend Chris. Glad things seem to be working out. Pretty much everything I own is in peril each and every day. There was a time when I considered suspending everything from the ceiling. Frank is right, if the cats are indoor cats, declaw them if you haven't already. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8383 Registered: Feb-05 | "Ah yes the cats. None of them were talking (we have 3 of them to go with 2 dogs and 4 kids in a 3 bedroom bungalow). Pretty much everything I own is in peril each and every day." Enough to drive me to drink...oh yeah...guess I don't need that...Salud! Kids grown and thankfully never owned pets (not for many years anyway)...now if only I can keep all other threats out of the home...! Lookin' forward to hearing your adventures...oh and no need to post a reply I know some of you like kids and pets...but we don't all have to...lol! |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 444 Registered: Dec-07 | "...no need to post a reply I know some of you like kids..." I like them if they're properly cooked--W.C. Fields |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 437 Registered: Jul-07 | It took a bit of time to get things rearranged to make enough room for the Rega. I had to relocate my DAC, power supply, and Moon LP3 to an out of sight location behind the TV. I hate having hidden gear, but it was the only way I could make it work. However, I think I'll be reorganizing again soon, as any step within a 5 ft radius causes the woofers of my speakers to travel significantly, sometimes accompanied by a record skip. I think I'll be designing and building a new stereo/tv stand over the holidays. As for the listening, well I got about 11 hours of play time through Saturday and Sunday. Saturday was painful. The sound was just not good. Harsh, no tone, very hot sounding. I assume it was the new cart and new rca jacks. Things started to come around on Sunday though, although still a little hot sounding. But the bass is coming around, there is now a little warmth to the midrange, and the soundstage is sorting itself out. I hear lots of potential. However I'm hoping there is lots of improvement yet. Not sure what to expect for a break-in period, but I've read up to 40 hours for certain cartridges. Not sure about the affect of the soldering the new rca jacks on. The phonostage should be well run-in, as it had been powered on at the dealers for weeks. I checked to make sure the table was level yesterday, and it was off by a bit so I fixed that. I used my Kimber PBJ's between the LP3 and the amp, which had been idle since I had swapped them out of my digital front end in favour of Zu cables. I'll keep spinning vinyl and see how things come around. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 359 Registered: Jun-08 | Hi Chris, Sounds like you're having a little less than stellar kick-off with the upgrades. My concern is that your TT was already supposed to be sounding good when the shop completed the work and I quote you as: "The guy that was there when I picked it up is the guy that does all of the work on the tables. He said he had set it up and listened to it after he had done the work, and that it sounded excellent. Lively, great depth, lots of punch down low. He hadn't actually heard the Bronze on that table, and was thoroughly impresssed." So why are you not getting such results? If it doesn't present the qualities as described by tonight I would call the guy at the store who did the work and describe what you're hearing. A little strange. All the best with it and I hope it turns out to be just break-in with your specific system. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 438 Registered: Jul-07 | I had the same thoughts all weekend George. The only 2 options I came up with were; - he knows what to listen for in a "new" cart and can hear through that initial roughness - my setup is just wrong in some way, causing the different results I'm going to give them a ring today anyway, just to bounce what I'm hearing off of them. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3118 Registered: May-05 | Cartirdges, like speakers, need a good amount of time to break in. People can argue electronics and wires, but cartridges have moving parts that need to move around a bit in order to get going and sound right. However, you should have some idea of how the gear sounds right out of the box. My Dynavector 10x5 definitely changed a bit throughout the first 100 hours or so, but I knew what its overall sonic charecter immediately. That being said, new cartridges are usually sloppy on both ends of the spectrum. Highs can be harsh, and bass can be shallow and/or uncontrolled. Every cart is different, but my obversations and everything I've read state this between the lines. The difference is the degree to which they happen. Also make sure nothing got misaligned on your way from the store to where it presently sits. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 362 Registered: Jun-08 | Stu is on the money. There will be some break in put you should hear some of the quality coming through. Let us know what the guy at the store says. If it really doesn't get better over the next 20hrs or so, I'd take it back to the store and ask to listen to it on their gear. That would help you identify if for some freak reason it's a mismatch of the new solder or cartridge with your equipment. What is your kit made up of anyways? |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 363 Registered: Jun-08 | Never mind Chris, I see your profile is up to date but can't say I'm familiar with much of it. Rega Planer 3 Vista Audio I84 Amplifier Channel Islands Audio VDA-2 DAC & VAC-1 Power Supply Oppo 981HD DVD Player (transport) Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 Speakers |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 439 Registered: Jul-07 | I talked to one of the guys at the dealers. They were quite willing to have me bring the table in to hook up if that's what I wanted to do. They also said the new belt had arrived (they didn't have a replacement belt in stock when I was in to pick up the table). I'm not worried at all about being able to work with them. They're very good to deal with. I listened to a few more records tonight while we were decorating the tree. Wynton Marsalis, Joni Mitchell, Al Jarreau. Most of the brightness has left, although the high frequencies are still quite brittle. The overall listenability is miles ahead of where things were Saturday. I think it is largely a burn-in issue, so I'll be patient. I'll pick up the new belt which might help, as I have noticed that the table needs a little help getting started at times....which can't be good. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 366 Registered: Jun-08 | Yeah that new belt should help with the timing and get things back to foot tapping goodness. If the sound is improving, that's a good sign. As long as it keeps improving you'll be approaching your expectations. Hopefully break-in is the issue. All the best with it and keep us dialed-in. Cheers. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13205 Registered: May-04 | . Start up torque on the Rega tables is traditionally quite low. Torque is not required in large amounts once the platter is running at speed. Therefore, rather than using a more complicated and expensive system the Rega tables use a rather low torque that remains low torque at all times. A new belt can't hurt but don't worry about the start up time on your table. I usually give most belt drive tables a bit of a nudge to get them started anyway. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8411 Registered: Feb-05 | Quite a number of folks are finding the Ortofon 2M series to be too bright. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2175 Registered: Jun-07 | I found mine to be almost too warm. Although It is on a dump pile of a table.lol. Better table to come soon. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 440 Registered: Jul-07 | Quite a number of folks are finding the Ortofon 2M series to be too bright. I hope not Art. One of the reasons I picked Ortofon was because most of what I read indicated that brand has a warmer, rounder house sound than some others...Dynavector for instance. Brightness is the last thing I wanted. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 368 Registered: Jun-08 | I had an older Ortofon from the 80s and had it since new. I found it leaned toward the warm side. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 444 Registered: Jul-07 | Quick update. Things are still evolving a bit, so I'll wait to offer final comments for another week or so. But the harshness and edge has completely gone. There were a few disks this morning that were really very good. Thomas Dolby's The Flat Earth was a real treat. Steve Miller's Fly Like an Eagle was awesome. I think when all is said and done I'll be quite content. The sound is not as forward as my digital setup, but there is excellent transparency and speed, and the bass slam is improving with every LP I play. Imagining and overall soundstaging have really surprised me. My albums are also in better shape than I had thought. Even without proper cleaning they are not noisy at all, and only the odd "pop" now and then. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 466 Registered: Dec-07 | Good to hear Chris. It's sort of like a young Cabernet then, a little unruly and rough around the edges at first, but give it time and it comes into its own. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8514 Registered: Feb-05 | Good to hear that your vinyl rig is smoothing out Chris. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11311 Registered: Dec-04 | We both have to look at record cleaners, Chris. Enjoy! |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 447 Registered: Jun-08 | Chris, nice to hear it's coming together. I don't use a record cleaning machine but clean the manual method with a microfibe cloth and some homemade record cleaning fluid (90% demineralized water, 10% alcohol, 1 drop dishwashing fluid). Pops/crackle a few and far between; however, on some albums/tracks, even new 180g, I occassional get some distortion in vocals in the higher mid frequencies. I'm confused myself whether this is: 1) dirt/dust in the grooves; 2) defects in the grooves themselves; 3) limitations of my cartridge/stylus or; 4)something in the setup itself. Other than this occassional issue, the vinyl sounds great. I'm not sure how close to consistently perfect you can get with vinyl. From the sounds of it your issues are now very limited. Try the cleaning fluid and the microfibre cloth before looking into more expensive cleaning devices. You may be satisfied with the results of the low cost alternative. All the best, George |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13231 Registered: May-04 | . Unless the distortion has been intentionally placed in the recording, a properly set up turntable shouldn't produce tracking distortion. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 448 Registered: Jun-08 | JV, where do I start? It's a Goldring GR1.2 with a factory mounted Goldring Electra cartridge, which looks to be aligned fine using the paper alignment tool. Since it's a Rega P2 clone there's not much to the setup. Again, I don't get distortion on all tracks nor all records, only on some tracks and some records, though the record could be brand new. Could it just be limitations in the tracking ability of my cartridge? The cartridge is only $99. Is this just something to live with or is there some tweaking that can be done? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8517 Registered: Feb-05 | The Electra is a pretty good tracker George. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 450 Registered: Jun-08 | I didn't want to steal this thread but I think were on a related subject. If the distortion I'm hearing is only on certain tracks on certain records and heard repeatedly in the same places, where might the problem lie? Where do I start to isolate it? Is there any testing I can do? |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1687 Registered: May-06 | George, if you believe the table is set up properly and the distortion is not a feature of the recording it may be your cleaning process. The whole album does not have to be grungy. It could be fingerprints, minor contact scratches, or in the case of older albums, wear from a previous stylus. I just pulled out a 3 album set from a 1976, near mint (think new) of "Rock's Greatest Hits" a Columbia Musical Treasury 3P 6526. The 1st LP sounded distorted or grungy between songs. I then used the Nitty Gritty Machine to clean the 2nd and 3rd LPs and used a couple of Belt treatments, red pen and cream. The Nitty Gritty has a vacuum which you do not have. 60% to 80% reduction in noise level in the space between songs. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11315 Registered: Dec-04 | A vacuumn cleaning, George, the dish soap will cling to nasties. Suck-dry after the wash. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 470 Registered: Dec-07 | "...and used a couple of Belt treatments, red pen and cream." Mike, you are going to have to enlighten me on this. Sounds k!nky. LOL. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3130 Registered: May-05 | I've been contemplating the KAB record cleaning machine. Anyone have any feedback? http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/ |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 451 Registered: Jun-08 | Stu and the rest. How about this DIY system. I've been thinking of grabbing an old vac. at the Goodwill Store and trying this one out: http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/cleaner/cleaner.html |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13232 Registered: May-04 | . "JV, where do I start?" You start in the same place you would start to assess any situation, you think a bit. You consider all the possible reasons why you would have distortion on certain vocals. I don't know your system or your set up but the most probable cause lies in one of those two areas - system or set up. That might sound simplistic but that is unfortuantely how and where you begin. http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm I would first decide whether the distortion is being produced by the turntable itself or by the function of the system placing unwanted energy into the turntable loop. If you have some headphones, try playing the system without your speakers introducing energy into the room. Once you've reached a conclusion here you've very likely eliminated 50% of your possible causes and further exploration of this area will result in minimal benefits to the immediate problem.. (That's not exactly true, you could still have problems with the other 50% of the loop but you'll have reduced the impact of that 50% in comparison to the existing problem.) If the problem is not apparent when using headphones, you should investigate the turntable for possible items that are reacting to the speaker's output. Turntable lids are common collectors of feedback in many tables. Remove the dustcover and listen for improvements. Non-suspended tables almost always need special attention in their isolation system. Carefully pick the tabe up or place it on a soft pillow while you listen for improvements. From those two tasks you should discover more about possible causes and their solutions. If the distortion is in the table itself without the speakers playing then it is very likely a case of improper set up of the table. Two caveats apply here. First, there are discs that exceed the capabilities of all but the finest tracking cartridges, IMO this is rare but it is a possibility. Take the offensive discs to your local audio shop on a slow weekday and ask them play the discs on one of their better turntable set ups to hear what is going on with the disc when played on a better table and a better - hopefully higher tracking/tracing capacity - cartridge. Second, dirty dics do produce tracking distortion. While a disc might look clean, it's what's in the bottom of the groove, where you cannot see into and where the stylus travels, that counts. A wet cleaning system such as The Discwasher pad was notorious for creating tracking distortion by wetting the crud in the groove and then not being able to competely remove the sludge it had created. So consider just how clean your discs might actually be rather than how clean you asssume them to be. Brand new vinyl should be cleaned before you play it. Don't assume it is clean until you've cleaned it. A third exception is worth mentioning here. You might have done irreparable damage to the groove by playing it repeatedly with a poorly set up system. In this case playing the discs that display the distortion is self defeating since you cannot repair the damage that has been done and some distortion will always remain. Your hope at that point would be to minimze any future damage and minimize the problem you hear right now. If you're clear on everything to this point, then you begin to examine the turntabe and its set up. The set up items that normally do not result in tracking distortion are; arm height, alignment unless it is drastically wrong and azimuth unless it is drastically off which isn't that likely with today's manufacturing techniques. That leaves the most likely suspects to be; VTF, i.e. tracking force and anti-skate. I assume you have a relatively new stylus so that is left off the list here. However, if you haven't cleaned the stylus in quite some time or never, then you need to begin with a clean stylus before you make any other assesments. If you are uncertain how to make proper adjustments to these parameters, then you should not attempt them without some guidance. If you know you do not understand how to set these parameters but your curiousity got the better of you and you messed with them anyway, get some assistance. Those are the most common causes of tracking distortion. If you are confident you've done everything possible to resolve any issues in these particular areas and you have played the discs on another system to check for issues that test might reveal, then come back and we'll see what else might be causing the problem. . |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1689 Registered: May-06 | Neil, you will need to suspend logic and just go with this, but I and others have found significant improvements with the free stuff alone. http://www.belt.demon.co.uk Go ahead and submit the email to get the rainbow foil. Mine came with a sample of Cream - Electret as well. Cutting the foil to strips as narrow as 1mm will work. The thinnest possible application of the cream also works fine. Then click on the link to "Free Sound Improving Techniques". If you think something does not work, undo it. Then see if anything is different. Have fun with it. YMMV. |
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Silver Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 472 Registered: Dec-07 | Cool Mike. Thanks for the link. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 452 Registered: Jun-08 | JV - thanks for the write-up. I've read the Audiophillia doc. before and did what I could but don't have a stylus tracking guage etc. I'll need to take it from step 1 and work through. Appreciate the suggestions. Mike - looked at some of the free tips. Some I would chalk up to placebo but who knows. I may try a couple for fun. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 453 Registered: Jun-08 | A couple articles from SoundStage! on the Belt treatments (foil and cream): http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize041999.htm http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize071999.htm We've now taken this thread in all directions. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13233 Registered: May-04 | . Tracking force is relatively easy to set. While it takes awhile to thoroughly get the hang of the idea, when you lower the cartridge onto a disc the cantilever should flex an "appropriate" amount. Too heavy and you'll see the effects just as too light and you'll also see the effects. Set your arm to what you believe to be the correct tracking force, then lower the tonearm onto a static record surface (not spinning) while observing the cantilever's flex as it settles into the groove. Apply 1 to 1 1/2 gram more force and observe the cantilever as it settles. Lighten the VTF by an equal amount and observe the cantilever. Adjust for the correct flex. End the session with a listening session using a fairly dymnamic LP. Make adjustments as you feel they are needed. An aluminum cantilever should make it reasonably easy to get the right downforce. If you switch to a different cantilever material in your next cartridge, say, a stiffer boron cantilever, this would necessitate a different amount and type of flex from the more rigid assembly. Naturally, you should remember you will do more damage to your LP's by tracking too lightly than you will from a bit too much VTF so it's almost always better to err on the side of too high rather than too low. After you've set the correct VTF, you'll have to adjust tonearm height and stylus rake (VTA) if the tonearm allows for easy adjustment. Higher downforce is the equivalent of a lowered tonearm base while a lighter VTF has the same effect as raising the tonearm at its base. . |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 459 Registered: Jun-08 | The VTF on the Goldring GR1.2 is a no-brainer as well with the stock cartridge. They provide a little grey plastic spacer bushing which sets the tonearm weight back on the stub at the exact spot where it should be for the Electra cartridge. So nothing to fiddle with there. I'll follow through your directions to see if it should be lightened up i.e. the weight pushed farther out on the arm but this is not what was provided in the instructions for setup with the table and from what you say, a little heavier is better than a little lighter, so I would say it's probably good where it is. No adjustment for VTA on the Goldring, just like a Rega P2. Now one thing that I don't understand is the setting of the switch on the base of the tonearm mount. There is a sliding switch with three selections 0, 1 or 2. The instructions with the table state to set it to 2. However, I've found that on at least on of my albums this setting causes a skip on the 1st and 2nd track but when I move the switch to 1 everything is fine. The instructions defintely say set to 2. I assume this is the anti-skate mechanism. Any suggestions here? Could this be the source of the distortion? Thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 460 Registered: Jun-08 | Yup, that switch is the magnetic anti-skate mechanism, exactly like the Rega RB250 tonearm. The suggestion I read was to set it to 1 if 2 provides any mistracking. I think we're on to something. One suggestion was to set to 0 or even remove the magnet and let the tonearm range free. Any thoughts on this? What are the consequences of playing vinyl with 1)too much anti-skate and 2) too little anti-skate. I would think that too much would put pressure outward on the groove and too little would put extra pressure inwards but all in all too little would be better than too much. Am I right? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13234 Registered: May-04 | . "One suggestion was to set to 0 or even remove the magnet and let the tonearm range free. Any thoughts on this?" You mean remove all anti-skating force? That's a "suck it and see what comes out" sort of question. Some people feel anti-skating is never actually correct and is most often wrong so why bother with anti-skate? Others feel anti-skate is well justified if the system is well thought out and well executed. There are numerous factors that would go into having the correct anti-skate at any one point across the groove of any single disc. Those factors would change somewhat with the next disc. So, rather than be wrong more often than right, just do away with it all together. You're correct about the additional force being applied to the inner or outer groove. To compensate for running with no anti-skate most people will then suggest you add about 1/2 gram of additional tracking force and allow the stylus to gain a better position in the groove. With an elliptical stylus that's about right and the additional pressure shouldn't mean any more groove wear if the rest of the tabe is set up as it should be. If you don't like what you hear, re-apply anti-skating. . |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 462 Registered: Jun-08 | Good. I'm going to try this JV. I'll start with switching it to zero and listening to the offending tracks. Cheers and thanks. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 450 Registered: Jul-07 | Stu, I got the KAB unit just before xmas. Haven't tried it out yet but will once the dust settles...no pun intended. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11348 Registered: Dec-04 | let us know Chris. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3453 Registered: Sep-04 | Chris, I disagree with Jan on the belt. Your old one will be knackered and have changed shape. I hope you've got the new one. Jan is right about giving the platter a nudge before starting the motor. It helps a lot, particularly on older decks which didn't have the newer motor's firmer fixing. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3132 Registered: May-05 | I'd appreciate your input on the KAB, Chris. It seems like a Nitty Gritty cleaner without an internal vacuum. If so, I don't see any point in getting a Nitty Gritty. I have no problem with attaching my own vacuum and saving a few bucks. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 460 Registered: Jul-07 | Frank, I did get the new belt. Didn't seem to make a difference that I could hear though. The old one did have a couple of bumps on it from being stuck in the same place on the small pulley, but those were gone after running if for a while. Stu, I finally dug out the EV-1 after supper tonight. I cleaned a few LP's and it seemed to work fine. Pretty straightforward. Put a record on the unit, wet the scrub brush, put a bead of fluid across the record, strub a few inches of the record at a time and keep turning until you've covered the whole record, turn it over and flip on the vacuum, slowly turn the record for a few turns, and viola. Repeat for the other side of course. The records are nice and dry after and look and sound very clean. I think the Ortofon 2M cartridge is very quiet as I found my records very quiet before cleaning, but they were better afterwards. Getting it all setup with the vacuum only takes 5 minutes or less, and each record takes about 2 minutes once you figure out what you're doing. The bottle of cleaning fluid will only do about 40 LP's though, so I'll need about 10 more to cover all of my albums. For the price, pretty slick. All the parts are solid...nothing that seems flimsy or likely to break. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 465 Registered: Jul-07 | I got a lot of time over the holidays to run probably 100 albums under Ortofon, so I think whatever burn-in of it, or anything else, that was required should be reasonably complete. After all is said and done things are still not quite stacking up to my expectations. I would guess it is my table setup and placement, as I just have the turntable stuck inside my stereo stand. From about 10 feet away in my listening position, I can tap the floor with my foot and see the woofer in my speakers move about ½", so I know there is likely a fair amount of vibration working back into the TT. I cut 3 small pieces of Corian and stuck isonodes to them, and placed them under the feet of the Rega to try to help with this. It did, as it was far more tolerant of floor vibration....but no sonic benefits were identifiable. I should probably get to the issues. First, I should confirm that the edge and harshness has gone. Also I should note that overall my LP's are listenable and enjoyable. It's been a real treat to play all of that music that I hadn't heard for years. The main issue I have is that the midrange seems sucked out. On some albums to quite a degree. I get to hear the drummer very clearly....the thump of the kick drum and the crash of the high-hat are front and center. But the lead vocalist and instruments are well behind the speakers, and seem quieter than they should be, as if someone had equalized the midrange down by 3db or so. The other main concern, which is likely linked to the first, is that the overall presentation is somewhat thinner than I prefer. Instruments and voices are leaner, with no roundness or body to them. When I switch back to my digital frontend, things become significantly richer, and much more "in the room" and live sounding. I thought for a while that perhaps I just needed to get used to a different presentation, as overall things are more behind the speakers, where my DAC puts things both in front (lead vocals, lead instruments) and behind (drums, percussion, backup instruments) them. But it's not that. It's that the focus is on the bass and treble, rather than the midrange. Imaging is just as wide as with my DAC, and transparency is quite good. If I could just get the frequencies to balance out I think I'd be in business. I have to build a new audio stand anyway, as I'm out of room with the current one, with my DAC, power supply, and phonostage in behind the LCD TV and out of sight. The stand is just something we bought at Zellers a number of years ago, and the shelves don't even sit level (I have a popcycle stick stuck under one side of the shelf under the TT to level it up). That may help some. Any other thoughts are appreciated as always. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11388 Registered: Dec-04 | Chris, you may soon be finding the end of what is available with the current setup. Sorry, dude. Next, look at wall shelf mount for the table. So much easier to fiddle with and so on. A good wall shelf is a tt's best friend. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada Post Number: 516 Registered: Jun-08 | Chris, stick with it, there are some additional things you can try. First, what type of mat are you using? You might want to look for an upgraded mat to help reduce noise a neutralize vibration as well as static. Second, you could try a TT clamp / weight. There is a supplier just north of Toronto, TTWeights.com that make some "affordable" weights/clamps from billet aluminum and brass that might help reduce the negative variables and get the frequencies levelled out. Then there is always an acrylic platter. I'd try these after you get the table on a propper stand..or as Nuck recommended wall mount. You could always go the cheap way with one of those IKEA tables to see what that gives you. In the meantime, I would strongly recommend getting it back to the store where you purchased the cartridge to hear it on their rigs and see if it's your home venue and rig that's the culprit or the TT itself. If it sounds good in the store, you may want to consider swapping out some of your gear. All is not lost, the journey is just beginning. Enjoy it, it's part of the hobby. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 466 Registered: Jul-07 | I'm pretty sure the wall mount is not an option without moving the whole rig down to the basement. I've pushed the envelope as far as I dare in the living room. I've resisted moving down to the spare room downstairs mostly because of room dimensions. The living room is a reasonably spacious 14' x 22', but the spare room is only 11' x 12'. I did some reading before on room acoustics and from what I understand that's not an ideal size, or dimensions. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13270 Registered: May-04 | . I would agree your set up is not helping the issue. Get the table onto a proper surface which for a Rega would tend to be a light, rigid structure that doesn't enclose it in any direction. The wall mount - when secured to the internal studs - is ideal but, if that's not an option, either a dedicated table stand or the Ikea piece will work. I would strongly suggest the dedicated turntable stand from a hifi company rather than anything else if you want to get the best from the Rega. Equipment stands normally are not the best location for a Rega. Avoid massive structures unless you know how to manipulate what the mass is doing to the table's sound. You can experiment with footers if you like but getting the table secured on a proper stand is the most important advice I can give at this point. You need a support system that will remove as much mechanical and acoustic feedback from the closed loop of the Rega's system as possible and allow the rest to pass quickly to and through the tables's playback mechanics. Until that is accomplished the Rega's sound will suffer. Play the table with the dustcover removed, that alone typically makes a significant difference in the presentation. I would have to advise not to begin playing around with mats and weights and so forth. You will tend to get yourself to the point you have too many changes and no idea what each has done to the sound and you will be even further from any idea how they all gell together. The Planar 3 should be capable of very nice presentation on its own. Until you reach the point where the table sounds good to you, just work on what you have in front of you. After you have a presentation you enjoy, then you can play with accessories. "I get to hear the drummer very clearly....the thump of the kick drum and the crash of the high-hat are front and center. But the lead vocalist and instruments are well behind the speakers, and seem quieter than they should be, as if someone had equalized the midrange down by 3db or so. The other main concern, which is likely linked to the first, is that the overall presentation is somewhat thinner than I prefer. Instruments and voices are leaner, with no roundness or body to them ... It's that the focus is on the bass and treble, rather than the midrange." These seem to me to be contradictory concepts. Either the sound is "thin" or you have "bass". "3dB" is not much to complain about, IMO. Finally for now, a few questions. How do you know what you are hearing is not on the disc? "The guy that was there when I picked it up is the guy that does all of the work on the tables. He said he had set it up and listened to it after he had done the work, and that it sounded excellent. Lively, great depth, lots of punch down low. He hadn't actually heard the Bronze on that table, and was thoroughly impresssed." Do you suppose you and this other fellow have such divergent ideas of what sounds "nice"? I'd take the table back over there for a listen on some other gear and hopefully with a little bit better set up. If it sounds nice there, then without buying any other equipment you should be able to manage similar sound at home. Since you've not identified anything other than the more forward sound of your digital system as your comparison ideal, how do you know which between analog and digital is "correct"? . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 467 Registered: Jul-07 | Good questions JV. "These seem to me to be contradictory concepts. Either the sound is "thin" or you have "bass". "3dB" is not much to complain about, IMO." Perhaps a poor choice of words. It might be easier to explain if we separate the two issues. First let's deal with the "thinness" issue. I find the bass weight reasonable. Not as punchy or weighty as with the DAC, but ok. The thinness is in the midrange mostly, but overall nothing in the entire frequency range is as full sounding as the DAC. When I say thinness, I mean the lack of fullness of sound...not capturing the richness and complexity of the voice or instrument. Now, as to the frequency imbalance.....it just seems that the midrange on most LP's is more recessed that the frequency extremes. As I said, I'm far too aware of percussion, and have to listen harder to pick up voices (male especially), tenor and baritone sax, cello, acoustic guitar. Female voices, violin, trumpet, alto and soprano sax, not as bad. As to the 3db, it was just a rough guess. It's not completely out of whack, but I notice it. If I could only have one of the two issues fixed, I'd fixed the "thinness". I don't do "thin", or "lean", or whatever else you want to call it. "Do you suppose you and this other fellow have such divergent ideas of what sounds "nice"? " I know that's true. I know the guy quite well. We do like different things to some degree. But if Bruce heard slam, I know what that means. I'm not hearing slam. He does like a thinner sound than I do, but not to this degree. He's a big Simaudio fan, and their gear does not sound thin. "Since you've not identified anything other than the more forward sound of your digital system as your comparison ideal, how do you know which between analog and digital is "correct"?" Correct ? Well, I don't. But I know which one I prefer, and by a fair bit. And it's not just forwardness, it's the overall presentation, which as I said is much richer with the DAC. And I'm very sure the the Rega is capable of far more. I agree with your assessment above, that without engaging in any "tweaking" or other tuning exercises, I should be able to get very good sound indeed. I am going to go back and talk to him when I get a chance this week. If needed I'll arrange to bring the table back and set it up there. I know one thing. What I heard at the dealers from the entry level 2M cartridge on the Project table sounded better than what I'm getting right now. Something has to be amiss. I appreciate the insights. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3477 Registered: Sep-04 | Chris, Your description of the sound (the hollowness in the midrange) is the exact opposite of the typical Rega (even with Ortofon) sound. More typically, regas have a full and well projected midrange and drop of relatively quickly at the frequency extremes. I cannot account for your results, so I can only suggest you go back to your dealer and ask them to look at the deck again.  |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 663 Registered: Jun-08 | How have things worked out with the TT Chris? Haven't seen you update the thread on your progress. Drop a line and tell us if you're still "into" your TT. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 517 Registered: Jul-07 | I'm still at it George. I'm settled into the new dedicated listening room in the basement, and couldn't be more pleased with how that's going. The TT hasn't really gotten much attention yet, but it's next. It's sitting on the top shelve of the flexy rack I built, but I know that's not the right place for it. Even with that, it sounds miles better than it did stuck in the TV stand upstairs, just not where I want it. The frequency balance is much better, but it still doesn't have the weight to it I think it will have. I'm going to mount a shelf on the wall for the TT, but haven't acquired the hardwood I need to make the base of the shelf. Once I get it situated properly, then I'll see where I'm at. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3202 Registered: May-05 | If you've got an uncovered concrete floor, maybe put it directly there? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11676 Registered: Dec-04 | I played the VPI on a bare concrete floor for a bit and was not disappointed with the result, just the drunken trip hazard and the steady kneeling and worms eye view. Good for a trial to see how a very solid foundation will let the deck play. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 519 Registered: Jul-07 | The concrete is covered with rubber underlay and carpet. I could get a concrete block (2' x 2') to put on the floor. What I was thinking about doing is this. The front wall is where the pony wall of the foundation is. So about 4' up the wall I have a shelf where the wall pushes out another foot or so. It's not quite wide enough to get the TT right on the shelf, but I could bolt something solid to the bottom of the shelf (about a 4" overhang underneath). I just don't know whether that would be as sound as it needs to be...even if I got a nice piece of 2" oak or something to bolt up there. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11680 Registered: Dec-04 | Thats what I am thinking of doing as well, CH. An outside or load bearing wall, as solid as possible is best, of course. A big heavy solid backplane bolted to the wall in a dozed spots into the studs should pretty much do it. The lumber shop will love you, hehe. I lost the link to a nice wall shelf design based on a big backplane. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 520 Registered: Jul-07 | In order to get it on a load bearing wall I'd have to mount it way up high, above the pony wall, on the outside wall. I could do that though. It would be about eye high, which would be fine I suppose. The wall against the pony wall is just tacked there for insulation purposes. No weight on it at all. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13389 Registered: May-04 | . Use the load bearing wall, otherwise you're mounting the shelf to a large drum. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11684 Registered: Dec-04 | Any options as far as isolating the thick heavy backplane from the drum? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 522 Registered: Jul-07 | I just remembered one thing that may/or may not matter. The upper part of the wall is double insulated. It has 2x6's running vertically (R20 insulation), and 2x3's running horizontally inside of that (R12). I'd have to screw the brackets for the TT to one of the 2x3's, at whatever height I can catch it. So it wouldn't be connected to the loaded studs, but to the 2x3's inside. Would that be less effective ? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11686 Registered: Dec-04 | A solid backplane would reach 2 studs, CH? Seems pretty solid to me. Also heard one guy used expanding foam pumped into a hollow wall to increase density. Hmm... |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 525 Registered: Jul-07 | The walls not hollow Nuck, it's full of fiberglass pink insulation. About 8" of it. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 526 Registered: Jul-07 | Maybe a few photos will help..... Front wall.....  Back wall.....  Side wall.....  |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11687 Registered: Dec-04 | Great Chris! Walmart called, the chairs are on clearance this week!! when I post pics this weekend, that will become apparant, LOL! congrats on the space CH! |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 678 Registered: Jun-08 | Nice digs Chris. I was just thinking, would there be any benefit to be had by painting those acoustic wall sculptures? Not with ordinary paint but with some automotive sound absorbing undercoating...possibly tar based? Might look neat as well, huh? Your man cave is sharp. Got some dirty picture hidden behind those curtains? LOL. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 529 Registered: Jul-07 | By 'acoustic wall sculptures' I'm assuming you mean the lovely diffusors, in that gorgeous shade of spruce. I may paint them, but I don't want to put anything on them absorbent. I want the sound waves to be dispersed, not absorbed. And I want the sound of the spruce to be maintained, not hardened. I would like them to look better, but hey, it's an ear room first, and an eye room second. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11690 Registered: Dec-04 | Just the way it should be. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 531 Registered: Jul-07 | So where I'm thinking about mounting the TT is on the front wall, just to the right of the window. If I put the phono preamp on the shelf, the interconnects should reach the amp. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1799 Registered: May-06 | The guitar really does make the connection with my man cave complete. I have 2 or 3 in my room, I think JV still has one. Nice work on the set up Chris! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 539 Registered: Jul-07 | I mounted the TT on the wall on the weekend. Home Depot had some very sturdy braced metal bracets that I sunk some 3" coarse threaded screws into. I had one piece of mdf from the flexy rack construction that I used as a shelf for now, which I fixed to the brackets with brass bolts and washers, with rubber washers against both sides of the mdf. It seems very solid. It's quite high in the air now....about 6.5', so I have to stand on something to put a record on/off, but that's no biggy. It definitely sounds better. Bass is more solid, and more of it. More warmth in the midrange. Really good imaging. I finally have it to the point where I can sit and enjoy the music without being annoyed by something obviously out of whack. It's not where I want it yet, but it's miles ahead of where I was. I'll leave it for a while now, enjoy the music, and decide if I want to tinker any further with it at some point. There's lots more I could do....different shelf or base, motor upgrade, platter, etc. But I'm content for now. Thanks for the help. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13412 Registered: May-04 | . Do not screw the shelf to the supports. If you're concerned abouy the shelf vibrating off the supports, a small bit of BluTak will be your answer. Otherwise a wall shelf for the Rega should float unattached to the supports. Did you have to add any length to the Rega's tonearm cable when you placed the Rega on the shelf? If so, you should not have any more than what Rega supplies. . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 540 Registered: Jul-07 | I have lots of Blu tak so I'll give that a try. I had just enough cable JV. I moved the LP3 off of the rack and onto the ledge above the pony wall, and everything worked fine. Getting the power cord to reach was the bigger challenge but I got it worked out. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13413 Registered: May-04 | . Use just enough BluTak to make yourself feel better about the shelf not falling off the supports. You're not trying to secure this as you would a speaker to a stand. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11837 Registered: Dec-04 | Very good Chris. The mount is everything, yes? Enjoy the music. Cheers! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 541 Registered: Jul-07 | I ditched the bolts, and just added enough Blu Tak to the back of the shelf to level it, and secure it somewhat. No Blu Tak in the front needed. Sounds pretty darn good right now. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 11840 Registered: Dec-04 | Maybe this is gettng closer to the mount that the dealer was using and was happy with Chris? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 542 Registered: Jul-07 | I don't know what system they hooked it up to at the dealers. I had assumed they just swapped out the Project table that was sitting on the top of a rack as you go in the door. But maybe he had it in the main listening room. Don' t know. Maybe it was a decent rack and he got better results. Either way, I'm enjoying things now. Had a vinyl fest last night. ZZ Top, Art Garfunkel, Thomas Dolby....great fun. |
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Gold Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 1027 Registered: Dec-06 | Pics of the current setup/shelf, Chris? |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 707 Registered: Jun-08 | Chris, sounds like we've got some of the same liking to tunes. Glad to hear things have improved. Now you've got me thinking about a wall mount but that won't be till I get into a new house. Still looking. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 708 Registered: Jun-08 | Oh, bye-the-way, some tips on the perfect listening room: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/383awsi/index1.html |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 544 Registered: Jul-07 | Stryvn, I'll get a pic or two up in a bit. |
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